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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Paul Butler to be new bishop of Durham
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
I have to confess, I've never heard of the man. But as he's going to be my bishop for the foreseeable future (or the next five minutes, in the case of ++Welby), should we northern folk be afraid, very afraid, or is my bunting due for an airing?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
I knew him years ago, as a Scripture Union staff worker and then a Curate in Walthamstow. To my mind he was the best kind of Evangelical ... I would have thought he was a bit different to the usual academic "Durham" type but that could be completely wrong!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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SyNoddy
Shipmate
# 17009
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Posted
Get that Bunting out!
He's a wonderful bishop and you're really jammy to be getting him.
My experience of bishops was limited to observing them at confirmation and ordination services but Bishop Paul is 'mug of coffee' type of guy who makes it his business to share the peace with every person in the congregation. He remembers names and goes out of his way to get out amongst local communities to meet people in their daily lives.
Well done the people of Durham, you've just won first prize in the bishop raffle ![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
Posts: 53 | From: Somewhere near the Middle | Registered: Mar 2012
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IntellectByProxy
Larger than you think
# 3185
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Posted
We knew him well when he was our vicar in Walthamstow, and then coincidentally when we moved even further south and he was our under-Bishop in Southampton, then latterly he was Bishop of Nottingham.
We should be very, very excited that he is to become Bishop of Durham. He is moderate, smart, and a great guy. Moreover he is totally Kingdom-minded.
Be pleased. We all should be.
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www.zambiadiaries.blogspot.com
Posts: 3482 | From: The opposite | Registered: Aug 2002
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Get that Bunting out!
[snipped all the rest of the love-in]
He is not however the greatest fan of SSM - I haven't come across anything about his view of/how he treats LGBT people in general so will assume that he is a pleasant, pastorally minded person who holds misguided views...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Earwig
Pincered Beastie
# 12057
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Posted
I think you can be pretty confident. I think he's a 'safe pair of hands' appointment to give Durham a Bishop for a good period of time. He's 57, this is his third episcopal role, and my guess is it'll be his last. I think he'll be an engaged, pastorial Bishop in a Diocese that's had two long vacancies and ++Justin in for a short time.
He's also been eminently sensible as the Bishops' representative with regards to safeguarding.
Posts: 3120 | From: Yorkshire | Registered: Nov 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
For a very nice minute there I thought that the Red Rector was the Paul Butler being spoke of.
No! We need him in our Deanery Synod!
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
quote:
Originally posted by SyNoddy:
Get that Bunting out!
[snipped all the rest of the love-in]
He is not however the greatest fan of SSM - I haven't come across anything about his view of/how he treats LGBT people in general so will assume that he is a pleasant, pastorally minded person who holds misguided views...
Given how few bishops ARE fans of SSM though...! I agree with you that things should change, but I think the bishop's views are pretty normal as far as CoE bishops go. Things are changing though, albeit very slowly.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Sergius-Melli
Shipmate
# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Given how few bishops ARE fans of SSM though...!
But at least some had the sense not to sign the coalition for marriage petition...
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
He was my vicar in Walthamstow as well, and one of the best. You haven't heard of him because he has got on with his job, and not made the headlines. I think that is a good thing, in general.
On the positive side, while he might not be openly in support of SSM, he is a good, caring and open person, who would (as far as I remember) a) not discriminate against those who disagree with him b) change his mind in the face of good evidence ( unlikely, yes, but possible )
You might not agree with him, but you are very lucky to have him. You cannot expect to always agree with your bishop, but having one who is open and accepting is a good second best.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
This is pretty much unalloyed joy. I look forward to handing him a mug of extra-strength church tea (it is when I make it ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) ) and having a natter.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
He's been my bishop for a short while and my contacts with him have been two services which have been a marvellous mix of formal and informal.
All my friends who know more of him are gutted that he is going. Delighted for him, of course, but still gutted.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Oh dear, I'm feeling my age. Wondered why there was so much interest in his views on Self Supporting Ministry.....
Posts: 1426 | From: La France profonde | Registered: Aug 2008
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
Glad it wasn't just me getting it wrong, then....
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
Posts: 10151 | From: Behind The Wheel Again! | Registered: Jan 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This is pretty much unalloyed joy. I look forward to handing him a mug of extra-strength church tea (it is when I make it ) and having a natter.
So it actually sees a teabag?
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
This is pretty much unalloyed joy. I look forward to handing him a mug of extra-strength church tea (it is when I make it ) and having a natter.
So it actually sees a teabag?
When me and young Master Tor are on the coffee rota, I make the tea, he makes the coffee. I use a bare minimum of 12 tea bags in the pot, and his coffee is like rocket fuel.
We ought to offer it before the service. ![[Snore]](graemlins/snore.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Geez, how big is your teapot?
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
Geez, how big is your teapot?
It brings all the boys to the yard, if that's what you're asking... ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Probably about six-eight pints. Standard catering size for a UK church, surely. I shall also refer you to this. I'm surprised we don't sing it as part of the service.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
Just to add that Paul is a great appointment. He has mission at his heart, he's great pastorally, and he's held that tricky little safeguarding portfolio really nimbly. Generous orthodoxy theologically.
For those who run all episcopal appointments through the lens of a positive attitude to same sex marriage, he doesn't fulfil what you might want. He's a mainline open evangelical, and that's where most of us are.
I'm glad for Durham, the diocese of my ordination, that someone is going to be there who will build on the positive work Justin did in the short time he was there.
[ 13. September 2013, 10:07: Message edited by: pete173 ]
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Pete
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
On the positive side, while he might not be openly in support of SSM, he is a good, caring and open person
Sad as it is, you're probably right that for the CoE that's a positive ...
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
For those who run all episcopal appointments through the lens of a positive attitude to same sex marriage, he doesn't fulfil what you might want. He's a mainline open evangelical, and that's where most of us are.
So much for the "open" part then ...
+Pete, has it occurred to you that for gay and lesbian Anglicans (as opposed to headline-seeking members of the episcopal chattering classes), how their bishop will respond to them isn't some pet issue, or one "lens" among many, but immediately relevant to their future in the church? If your preferment depended on whether your diocesan believe Mrs Pete ought to be put away so as not to scandalise the faithful, how quickly would it become your own lens!
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
I have a question which has nothing to do with the new blokes views on SSM.
Bishops of Durham: In the eighties you had David Jenkins - when Yes, Prime Minister insinuated that the senior clergy of the Church of England were a bit equivocal over this whole Christianity lark they probably had DJ in mind. In the early nineties you had some kind of odd kind of Aff Cath Careyite managerialist. Since he departed it's been NT Wright, Blessed Justin Welby (pbuh) and now Paul Butler.
Now I think that NT Wright, BJW and (I imagine, knowing nothing about him) the Newest Broom are a step in the right direction despite being kinda sorta Aff. Cath. myself. But how did this happen? Was there a shift in power in the Diocesan Synod? Did the CAC decide "never again" after Jenkins?
Seriously, Durham has gone from being a synonym for doubtful belief to being a hotbed of evangelial piety. I have no complaint but would be interested to know how and why.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
It does seem that Durham has become reserved for a moderate Evangelical. Of course, the last several bishops of London have been respectively pretty high (Richard Chartres), quite high (David Hope), and very high indeed (Graham Leonard). All three probably more conservative than not theologically, and each a rather flamboyant showman in his own way.
Before Monsignor Leonard (as he was at his deat), Bishops of London seem to have been mostly rather Broad Church fellows in donnish glasses (including a fair few future Primates of All England).
So, yes, the character of bishoprics does change, sometimes as much by chance as anything else.
[ 13. September 2013, 21:36: Message edited by: S. Bacchus ]
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
Posts: 260 | Registered: Jul 2013
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
I don't go with this "character of bishoprics" stuff any more. The old predictability about Durham being for academics and Liverpool being sort of evo doesn't work
(a) because the Diocesan six now get a bigger say in what goes on and they won't necessarily follow received wisdom
(b) because it's much more horses for courses (with Durham, the question is "who's going to be able to take forward the Welby reformist agenda and work with the Diocese to turn it around")
(c) because the missional and reforming types tend to be at the evangelical end of the spectrum - regrettably, the lib caths still tend to be risk averse and non-boat-rockers. We need some gutsy catholic leaders of change and mission, please.
(d) the Jenkins factor still plays quite strongly - there are enough folk in most Dioceses who want a bishop who can give ex animo assent to the creeds (and Jenkins is [wrongly] thought not to have done that). So liberal thinkers get pretty short shrift in the process (Nick Holtham being an honourable exception)
The London question is a bit different. As always. After Graham Leonard, we wanted orthodoxy without favouritism and partisanship. I was on the CAC (now CNC) for David Hope and Richard Chartres. They were precisely the sort of Bishop we prayed and hoped for. Definitely not ultramontanes like Leonard, and able to allow diversity, encourage growth, and create circumstances in which the Kingdom could flourish and take root. Again, it's not a question of "they have to be catholics" (though that helps!) It's that they've made mission possible and stopped the Diocese being an introverted playground for a particular sort of gin and lace brigade, which Leonard encouraged, but which was taking the Church down a silly cul-de-sac. David Hope turned that round. Richard Chartres (and team) are building on that.
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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pete173
Shipmate
# 4622
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Posted
I don't go with this "character of bishoprics" stuff any more. The old predictability about Durham being for academics and Liverpool being sort of evo doesn't work
(a) because the Diocesan six now get a bigger say in what goes on and they won't necessarily follow received wisdom
(b) because it's much more horses for courses (with Durham, the question is "who's going to be able to take forward the Welby reformist agenda and work with the Diocese to turn it around")
(c) because the missional and reforming types tend to be at the evangelical end of the spectrum - regrettably, the lib caths still tend to be risk averse and non-boat-rockers. We need some gutsy catholic leaders of change and mission, please.
(d) the Jenkins factor still plays quite strongly - there are enough folk in most Dioceses who want a bishop who can give ex animo assent to the creeds (and Jenkins is [wrongly] thought not to have done that). So liberal thinkers get pretty short shrift in the process (Nick Holtham being an honourable exception)
The London question is a bit different. As always. After Graham Leonard, we wanted orthodoxy without favouritism and partisanship. I was on the CAC (now CNC) for David Hope and Richard Chartres. They were precisely the sort of Bishop we prayed and hoped for. Definitely not ultramontanes like Leonard, and able to allow diversity, encourage growth, and create circumstances in which the Kingdom could flourish and take root. Again, it's not a question of "they have to be catholics" (though that helps!) It's that they've made mission possible and stopped the Diocese being an introverted playground for a particular sort of gin and lace brigade, which Leonard encouraged, but which was taking the Church down a silly cul-de-sac. David Hope turned that round. Richard Chartres (and team) are building on that.
Posts: 1653 | From: Kilburn, London NW6 | Registered: Jun 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Pete, that was good enough to say twice. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
I don't go with this "character of bishoprics" stuff any more. The old predictability about Durham being for academics and Liverpool being sort of evo doesn't work
Does that mean that we might get an Anglo-catholic in place of James Jones? ![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
Something odd certainly happened to Durham after Jenkins. Although there were some excellent academic and pastoral bishops who could have been appointed, there was the bizarre appointment of Michael Turnbull who was certainly a "Careyite managerialist".
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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S. Bacchus
Shipmate
# 17778
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
=We need some gutsy catholic leaders of change and mission, please.
Presumably the (proposed but ultimately scuttled) appointment of Philip North to Whitby had precisely this in mind, before it was scuttled by entrenched views on a certain dead horse. Actually, between Philip North and Jeffrey John, it does seem like a lot of proposed Anlgo-Catholic appointments have been scuttled by various dead horse issues.
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'It's not that simple. I won't have it to be that simple'.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Can we have Jeffrey John in Liverpool please?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Can we have Jeffrey John in Liverpool please?
Why not? He'd be better than the "I'm not gay, but I'm not anti-gay" type of bish.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I'd be delighted. But amazed.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
It would make the anti-gay evangelical churches in St Albans very happy to lose him.
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Blog
Music for your enjoyment
Lord may all my hard times be healing times
take out this broken heart and renew my mind.
Posts: 18859 | From: At the bottom of a deep dark well. | Registered: May 2001
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
It would make the anti-gay evangelical churches in St Albans very happy to lose him.
And many of the rest of us very sad indeed.
I have twice been at St Albans when the blessed Jeffery was preaching (I don't go very often). Both times were superb. I ought to say, though, that the standard of sermons at the Abbey is in general very high indeed, imho.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pete173:
It's that they've made mission possible and stopped the Diocese being an introverted playground for a particular sort of gin and lace brigade, which Leonard encouraged, but which was taking the Church down a silly cul-de-sac. David Hope turned that round. Richard Chartres (and team) are building on that.
Gin and lace in a silly cul de sac playground sounds fun.
But perhaps less so with bishops present.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Good to see you back, ACR!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Good to see you back, ACR!
Thank you. You are very kind.
[ 15. September 2013, 17:21: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Anyone very worthy who didn't get selected for Durham might wish to keep their eye on Exeter. In fact, Creamtealand is minus a bishop of Exeter and of Plymouth at the moment.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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