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Source: (consider it) Thread: Your kingdom come, on earth as it is in heaven
Truman White
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This is a spin off from the Kingdom theology Vineyard thread.

Before Christ returns, how much of heaven can we see on earth?

What does the 'Kingdom on earth' look like?

What have you experienced that's consistent with what you expect the Kingdom of earth to look like?

Enough to get you started?

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Raptor Eye
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From what Jesus said, the Kingdom of God is a spiritual organism that grows and bears fruit. Those within it are part and parcel of it, whether or not they are this side of death as human beings. That doesn't mean that they're not living in the physical world and engaging with it too.

What it's like is a realm of spiritual perfection, imv, which we see clear glimpses of, but mostly dimly until the time comes.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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leo
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Not merely 'spiritual' - ours is an incarnational religion so the kingdom/reign of God is about justice, peace, equality etc. and we, as the body of Christ, should be working towards those ends through politics, pressure groups etc.

However, this isn't an unlimited 'progress'; agenda.

The moment we achieve one thing, another thing goes wrong. That's what original sin does.

So it will always be a 'not yet.'

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Gamaliel
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I s'pose at the most basic level it's whenever we see good triumphing over evil:

'If I cast out demons by the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.' Luke 11:20

Whatever we think about demons and their ontological reality or otherwise, that's not the crucial point here ... the point is that the domain of darkness has been overthrown and replaced by the kingdom of light - and all that this entails.

So, whenever we see good triumph, whenever we see the hungry fed, the naked clothed, unjust systems replaced with better ones or whatever else it might be that is good and wholesome - then to some extend the Kingdom of God has advanced.

Of course, it's a lot more than that but the Kingdom is within and around us and many people are agents of the Kingdom if they did but know it.

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Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I s'pose at the most basic level it's whenever we see good triumphing over evil:

'If I cast out demons by the finger of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you.' Luke 11:20

Whatever we think about demons and their ontological reality or otherwise, that's not the crucial point here ... the point is that the domain of darkness has been overthrown and replaced by the kingdom of light - and all that this entails.

So, whenever we see good triumph, whenever we see the hungry fed, the naked clothed, unjust systems replaced with better ones or whatever else it might be that is good and wholesome - then to some extend the Kingdom of God has advanced.

Of course, it's a lot more than that but the Kingdom is within and around us and many people are agents of the Kingdom if they did but know it.

well said.
[Smile]

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Mudfrog
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To me, although we are offered initial salvation and full salvation here (that's justification and sanctification), final salvation will not come until he comes again.
Hebrews 9 v 28: "...so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

That's when full redemption will come to creation, the meek shall inherit the earth, the time of the Gentiles will be complete, God's covenant to the Jews will be fulfilled, the Kingdom of God will come and the will of the Father will be done on earth as it is in Heaven "and all flesh will see it together." .

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Eutychus
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My preoccupation is increasingly that of seeking the Kingdom.

I think this involves righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit; justice, mercy and faithfulness. Much could be said about all those but I understand peace as things being in their rightful place.

I also hold to the notion that the Kingdom of God "cometh not with outward show" (Luke 17:20) and that it is not territorial in nature.

The Kingdom is characterised by the kind of situation Jesus refers to in the parables: situations that are at once upside-down (the first shall be last), counterintuitive (the smaller something is, the bigger it gets) and yet perceived as deeply "right".

I believe the Spirit plays a role in advancing the Kingdom both through developing fruit in the believer and (occasionally) bestowing gifts and "signs, wonders and miracles". I think these are not firstfruits of the Kingdom so much as signs or indicators towards the full-orbed Kingdom that is to come - after the eschaton. They are a constant throughout the Church age and not set to increase or decrease over the long term.

Echoing John Stott, I think of the Kingdom in this age in terms of Christian counter-culture. It doesn't work as a subculture and it doesn't work as a replacement for existing culture. The Kingdom of God is a benevolent subversion of the world's culture pending the redemption and transformation of all culture at the eschaton. I suppose one might call it prophetic in both senses of the term.

As those that follow Jesus seek the Kingdom, he promises to build the Church. The Church should be a by-product of seeking the Kingdom and not a minature kingdom or 'fortress' in its own right.

My €0.02. Errors & Omissions Excepted.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:

As those that follow Jesus seek the Kingdom, he promises to build the Church. The Church should be a by-product of seeking the Kingdom and not a minature kingdom or 'fortress' in its own right.


This is something I wonder about. God seems to allow people to stand in the way of his will, in which case the church doesn't grow, the kingdom doesn't grow through its people, nor is the good seed sown so that there's a downward spiral as less people seek the kingdom. God then bypasses those people and reaches others who do serve, so that those churches grow and his kingdom flourishes ....until people start to stand in the way.... [Confused]

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Eutychus
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I think the promise is to build the Church not any particular church. And another promise is that there is no end to the increase of his government, which I take to be the Kingdom. Does that help?

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
I think the promise is to build the Church not any particular church. And another promise is that there is no end to the increase of his government, which I take to be the Kingdom. Does that help?

Yes, thank you. I do see the Church as the whole body of Christ, ie all Christian people, but was pondering as to why some particular churches diminish while others grow at any one time.

I see the never-ending increase of God's kingdom as an important feature as described by Jesus. I guess the people who try to stand in its way are like rocks in a stream that the water flows over or around.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Eutychus
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quote:
I do see the Church as the whole body of Christ, ie all Christian people, but was pondering as to why some particular churches diminish while others grow at any one time.
One of the biggest things I took away from my NFI meltdown was the realisation of the extent to which I (and I believe NFI) mistakenly saw local churches (preferably restorationist ones) as the developing definitive incarnation of the Church.

Since then it's occurred to me that even the "good" local churches in Revelation aren't around anymore. If even they didn't make it, how hubristic can it be to assume that yours or mine will be there forever?

Local churches (and all the more so denominations) are at least partly human institutions, and as such they are born, live and die like everything else human. They should be looked after responsibly just like other institutions - and sometimes that can mean winding them up. Jesus is still building his Church though - and I'll keep on seeking the kingdom. I'm happy to be involved in leading a local church, but I have to say I find this perspective very refreshing and less prone to power trips.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
One of the biggest things I took away from my NFI meltdown was the realisation of the extent to which I (and I believe NFI) mistakenly saw local churches (preferably restorationist ones) as the developing definitive incarnation of the Church.

Since then it's occurred to me that even the "good" local churches in Revelation aren't around anymore. If even they didn't make it, how hubristic can it be to assume that yours or mine will be there forever?

Local churches (and all the more so denominations) are at least partly human institutions, and as such they are born, live and die like everything else human. They should be looked after responsibly just like other institutions - and sometimes that can mean winding them up. Jesus is still building his Church though - and I'll keep on seeking the kingdom. I'm happy to be involved in leading a local church, but I have to say I find this perspective very refreshing and less prone to power trips.

I think you could be right, but it does go against the grain of tradition as well as endorsing it. Many hands holding the baton over time may pass it on with increasing understanding and knowledge, so that it grows like (and with) the kingdom, but if those holding it at any one one time and place are not serving God's will but their own it may become corrupted and a stumbling-block to others. That's when the new denominations are likely to spring up, perhaps to grow fresh shoots to feed into the Church once the corruption has been cleansed, perhaps to be the successors of those organisations due to die as part of the organic process.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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Truman White
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To manifest God's kingdom on earth, implies that other kingdoms lose some of all of their power. So what does that mean in practice? Here's a thought from the Boydster:

“So too, since Christ has in principle defeated the fallen "gods" (principalities and powers) who have for ages inspired injustice, cruelty and apathy toward the weak, the poor the oppressed and the needy (Ps. 82), the church can hardly carry out its role in manifesting, on earth and in heaven, Christ's victory over these gods without taking up as a central part of its missions just these causes. We can, in truth, no more bifurcate social concerns and individual salvation than we can bifurcate the cosmic and anthropocentric dimensions of Christ's work on the cross.”
― Gregory A. Boyd, God at War: The Bible and Spiritual Conflict

Thoughts?

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Martin60
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YES! Amen. I'm a recent convert to the Boydster, thanks to a Pentecostal friend. Something is going on. Emerging.

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Love wins

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BroJames
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I tend to try and think of the kingdom of God as an event or happening rather than an object. I think the word 'kingdom' in modern English needs to be glossed with its older meaning of "rule". So the rule of God is near at hand. Wherever we see things happening as God would will (wills) there is the kingdom of God made manifest.

We are to look out for these kingdom signs, and to be people who seek to bring them into being.

By the same token, however small any evidences of the kingdom are, they are part of that growing work of God, and in its fulfilment the smallest mustard seed of kingdom, of God's rule at work in the world, becomes a great tree giving shelter to all the birds of the air. Nothing is wasted.

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by Raptor Eye:
... God seems to allow people to stand in the way of his will, in which case the church doesn't grow, the kingdom doesn't grow through its people, nor is the good seed sown so that there's a downward spiral as less people seek the kingdom. God then bypasses those people and reaches others who do serve, so that those churches grow and his kingdom flourishes ....until people start to stand in the way.... [Confused]

In view of:

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I s'pose at the most basic level it's whenever we see good triumphing over evil:

Do you not wonder if those pesky people standing in the way might have a mission to enable us to create the kingdom of God through our own actions? Good can only triumph over evil when evil is presented to us in some way or other. In this way, even seemingly evil people and evil acts harbour the seed of good. And I'm sure something that will be most heavenly about heaven is that we will have the constant propensity to not blame others for what conditions our own circumstances. So it's well worth getting in a bit of practice while we're waiting, I think.

Just a bit of my trademark Buddhist input there, couched in the language of the rest of the thread. Any use to anyone?

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Truman White
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So what state did the world start in - good, then fell into evil and is on a path back to redemption? Was it neutral? So where did good and evil come from? Did God introduce both factors because he needed both for good to mature?

Not sure I'm getting this - spell it out to me my old' son....

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Plique-à-jour
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quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
So what state did the world start in - good, then fell into evil and is on a path back to redemption? Was it neutral? So where did good and evil come from? Did God introduce both factors because he needed both for good to mature?

Not sure I'm getting this - spell it out to me my old' son....

Here you go.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
So what state did the world start in - good, then fell into evil and is on a path back to redemption? Was it neutral? So where did good and evil come from? Did God introduce both factors because he needed both for good to mature?

Not sure I'm getting this - spell it out to me my old' son....

Here you have come to a HUGE sticking point in the "Fall" narrative.

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HCH
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A somewhat tongue-in-cheek storytelling approach is that before Christ returns, we could have:

(a) a long period of gradual improvement in fairness, charity, justice and peace, or

(b) some sort of cataclysmic decision-point in history (violence, warfare, natural disaster), or

(c) the fulfillment of various predictions (King Arthur comes back to save Britain (a mythological perspective).

The first seems likely and boring and much to be preferred. The second sounds like a video game or a movie script or the book of Revelation. The third seems unlikely but comforting.

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Truman White
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Should have put my last question to Kankucho. My bad peeps.@Kankucho - have a gander at my last post and tell me where you're coming from.
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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Do you not wonder if those pesky people standing in the way might have a mission to enable us to create the kingdom of God through our own actions? Good can only triumph over evil when evil is presented to us in some way or other. In this way, even seemingly evil people and evil acts harbour the seed of good. And I'm sure something that will be most heavenly about heaven is that we will have the constant propensity to not blame others for what conditions our own circumstances. So it's well worth getting in a bit of practice while we're waiting, I think.


Thank you for the thinking points.

No, I don't think that the people who stand in the way have any such motivation, nor do I believe that they could do no other. They have their own (often well-meaning) agenda which is centred on other than God. That God can and does co-operate with us to grow his perfect kingdom out of the bad as well as the good if we are willing demonstrates the power of God and is one of the factors which link hope to faith. Without God, his kingdom cannot grow.

My current thinking leans toward the free will view, that evil must inevitably be a possibility as well as good if human beings are to be able to consciously draw near to God by will. It's not simple however, as the knowledge of good and evil is a factor of both nature and nurture, and so we're all responsible for others as well as for ourselves to some extent imv - which is not to say that we should blame others for our failings, but means that we must fully recognise the impact on others of our actions and words.

Evil is not only the absence of good, it has its own power which I wonder about. Is it like a cloud of spiritual chaos, consisting of the negativity created by those who act against the good? I don't think that it does harbour any seed of good. Whatever evil is, we are able to consciously work for it or against it, but we are also able to work for it thinking that we are doing what is good, as it may put on a deceptive mask.

Evil cannot destroy God's kingdom. Rather, in the end, God will destroy it, so that all there is will be his kingdom, for a time.....

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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kankucho
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quote:
Originally posted by Truman White (in reply to my post):
So what state did the world start in - good, then fell into evil and is on a path back to redemption? Was it neutral? So where did good and evil come from? Did God introduce both factors because he needed both for good to mature?

Not sure I'm getting this - spell it out to me my old' son....

The world started with nobody around to categorise what was going on as either good or evil. Those concepts emerged with the increasing sophistication of beings that were aware of self and other, which were capable of being physically and emotionally hurt as an effect of actions imposed on them by others.

From my perspective, God didn't introduce any of this. As I said, I've just borrowed the language of the Ship majority to relay a Buddhist perspective on this topic. That's only going to be effective up to a point. Buddhism embraces a concept labelled 'fu-ni' - applied to phenomena which appear to have two polarised aspects but which are essentially perspectives on a singularity - self/environment, mind/body, etc. Evil might be considered to be an over-emphasis on the dual perspectives, which promote a sense that what is done unto others has no bearing on the condition of self. This recognition and distinguishing of selfness and otherness is what I understand (rightly, or wrongly?) to be the essence of the Adam-Eve-serpent-apple story.

If there is such a thing as what you call a 'path back to redemption', it would be a process of redressing the delusion and destruction of a solely dualist outlook with an appreciation of the fundamental oneness of all phenomena - an inner revolution which is expressed in Nichiren Buddhism as 'nam myoho renge kyo'.

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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
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kankucho
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Raptor Eye: Does my reply to Truman White strike a chord in regard to your own comments?

I sense that you, and others in this threa, have some conception of a disembodied Evilness in the cosmos, which I don't share. I can only conceive of evil in terms of evil thought, evil communication and evil action - all of which have recognisable sources and consequences, executing the promotion of an egotistical self over the interests of others and/or a common good. As such, it's a function of being human, occupying the same mind and body as good thought, good communication and good action.

I see no reason to suppose that God will intervene and fix all this. If it suits us to believe that some kind of controller God does exist, we're going to have to stop behaving like God's children and start acting like God's grown-ups before S/He is in any position to effect anything for our eternal benefit. To my mind, recognising our total responsiblity for ourselves and others would have to be a precondition. I don't know how it is for others here but, for me, the extent to which I can resist blaming others for my circumstances is the same extent to which I can approach my circumstances - and their alleged perpetrators - with gratitude. And that kind of gratitude is the most heavenly state of mind that I can conceive.

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"We are a way for the cosmos to know itself" – Dr. Carl Sagan
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Raptor Eye
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quote:
Originally posted by kankucho:
Raptor Eye: Does my reply to Truman White strike a chord in regard to your own comments?

I sense that you, and others in this threa, have some conception of a disembodied Evilness in the cosmos, which I don't share. I can only conceive of evil in terms of evil thought, evil communication and evil action - all of which have recognisable sources and consequences, executing the promotion of an egotistical self over the interests of others and/or a common good. As such, it's a function of being human, occupying the same mind and body as good thought, good communication and good action.

I see no reason to suppose that God will intervene and fix all this. If it suits us to believe that some kind of controller God does exist, we're going to have to stop behaving like God's children and start acting like God's grown-ups before S/He is in any position to effect anything for our eternal benefit. To my mind, recognising our total responsiblity for ourselves and others would have to be a precondition. I don't know how it is for others here but, for me, the extent to which I can resist blaming others for my circumstances is the same extent to which I can approach my circumstances - and their alleged perpetrators - with gratitude. And that kind of gratitude is the most heavenly state of mind that I can conceive.

To begin with your last point, I agree that gratitude, which for me stimulates thanks and praise to God, is a true joy. I would add inner peace, truth, trust and love to it for the most heavenly state of mind that I can currently conceive.

Having said that, I cannot and will not be grateful to those who have given me or others pain (physical, mental, emotional or spiritual) or who have curtailed my development in some way, whether deliberately or not. They were wrong actions that should be forgiven but not excused, and identified as behaviour to be consciously avoided.

I recognised some time ago that being God's children doesn't equate to being an infant, but to a growing spirit whose maturation will come as close to Christ-likeness as is humanly possible (I am not divorcing spirit from mind or body).

Responsibility for our words and actions is fully ours, and we must face up to them whether in this life or after it when we come face to face with God. I don't know why I'm convinced of that, it comes from the heart rather than the head and it isn't from my desire, even from a desire for justice.

You are right to say that I don't limit evil to service of the self over the common good, although I understand and accept your description of this behaviour. I do believe that evil has its own power too, a power which preys on us when we're vulnerable, which will grow if we embrace and serve it, and which may overpower us so that our own will and discernment is suppressed. The testimonies of those who claim to have been freed by Christ from the evil control of lives of addiction to sex /drugs /alcohol /crime seem to corroborate this. The deceit of the serpent and the chaos of Leviathan are both representative of evil imv.

Whether God made us complete with consciousness or whether God created the world in which we came to a point of consciousness, the knowledge of good and evil is part of us, as is seen by the body language of a 3 year old who tells lies.

The God I believe in doesn't control us, but invites us into his kingdom. By our own free will we accept by drawing near or reject by walking away.

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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10

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