|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Holy Water
|
Karl Kroenen
Apprentice
# 16822
|
Posted
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?
If not - what is the 'point?'
--------------------
God loves you so much that He created Hell, just in case you don't love Him back.
Posts: 34 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Karl Kroenen
Apprentice
# 16822
|
Posted
...so enlighten me
--------------------
God loves you so much that He created Hell, just in case you don't love Him back.
Posts: 34 | From: Bristol | Registered: Dec 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
As a Lutheran baptism is the use of water combined with God's Word. It is the act of baptism that is holy, not the water itself. The water is very common. It is set apart (ie holy) for a specific act. Aside from that action it is only water.
[ 23. September 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: Gramps49 ]
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
If you met a Christian and a non-Christian, before either said hello, could you tell which is which?
I'm not sure the "point" of Holy Water is to be instantly detectable. Strike that, I'm certain that's not the point.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
(x-post with mousethief)
Oh wow, you've pointed out something nobody has ever thought about holy water at all! The Vatican may not last the night. Good work, chaps.
[ 23. September 2013, 19:53: Message edited by: Plique-à-jour ]
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?
If not - what is the 'point?'
The former might work on a vampire.
--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.
Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?
If you're in Austria, apparently you can just test for fecal matter.
--------------------
Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
|
Posted
It used to be customary, AIUI, to add salt to holy water. That custom is apparently not a strict rule any more, but is still observed in some churches. So yes, in some churches, a random person off the street performing a blind taste test actually could tell the difference.
--------------------
"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?
If not - what is the 'point?'
The holy water would taste slightly salty, I think. But it's not meant for drinking in any case.
--------------------
"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
And you have to exorcise the salt that is put into the holy water, begging the question of whether exorcised salt tastes different to ordinary salt that may contain demons. ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
The holy water would taste slightly salty, I think. But it's not meant for drinking in any case.
Oh?
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
|
Posted
If you were blind and you had a copy of the Bible and a copy of the Kama Sutra in your hands how would you tell the difference ? would it matter anyway ?
Holy water is a water which has been blessed for a specific purpose.It is used with faith.It is difficult to touch faith.
Lourdes water is simply water from Lourdes,usually from the spring beside the well known sanctuary. For those with faith(an elusive quality) they may believe that the Virgin Mary asked people to come and pray and wash in the spring.For those who cannot actually go to Lourdes,those who have gone there will sometimes bring back the water. It's as simple as that.
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Never been to Lourdes. Question, is the spring water Lourdes a mineral water?
Regards, putting salt into baptismal water: when the water is used over and over by a congregation, salt was added because of its antiseptic qualities. Those that practice this say it was also a symbol of exorcism,
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Never been to Lourdes. Question, is the spring water Lourdes a mineral water?
Regards, putting salt into baptismal water: when the water is used over and over by a congregation, salt was added because of its antiseptic qualities. Those that practice this say it was also a symbol of exorcism,
Madonna's daughter is a girl not a source of refreshment (ok she might be for some, then)
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test? If not - what is the 'point?'
A national flag is just a piece of cloth. If you fly it on the battle field to rally your troops, it becomes more than a piece of cloth by virtue of the hopes and actions of people that attach to it. If you fly that flag in your garden, then that can also be true, but there is more of a danger of it becoming hypocritical. Whether either of these is good, bad or ugly depends on what all the people who put their hopes and actions into this flag are actually up to.
Sacramentals, like (the use of) holy water are not sacraments. Thus what they are good for depends in a similar manner on what we do with them. However, unlike for the national flag, there is at least one person in play here whose intentions are good and pure: God. So if someone dips their fingers into holy water on their way out of Church, and draws a cross with it across their body, then this can mean something deep or it can be hypocritical - to them personally and to the community. But at least God can be expected to smile on such a dedication, for what it could and should symbolise (even if it doesn't in a particular case). None of this relies on "special properties" of the water that an empirical investigation would uncover. A national flag is also just cloth, physically speaking. That is not the point.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
|
Posted
I always bless the water in any swimming pool I enter. It's about grace you know.
KK, maybe the little boat of your life has come closer to the Kingdon by a simple swim, and you never knew.
Swim Safe, Pyx_e
--------------------
It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
|
Posted
There may well be some differences in water from, say, Lourdes, to water from somewhere else. However, this is to do with the "other" chemicals that are mixed in with the H-O-H.
Though one might might want to be wary.
The blessing does nothing to the water. In that respect, it is as effective as a homeopathic "remedy". Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.
--------------------
I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
There may well be some differences in water from, say, Lourdes, to water from somewhere else. However, this is to do with the "other" chemicals that are mixed in with the H-O-H.
Though one might might want to be wary.
The blessing does nothing to the water. In that respect, it is as effective as a homeopathic "remedy". Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.
Utter bollocks. What does 'some catholics and even some christians' mean?
What you are saying in effect is saying that atheism is correct. Well, hot shoe me with a twerkin firkin!
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
There may well be some differences in water from, say, Lourdes, to water from somewhere else. However, this is to do with the "other" chemicals that are mixed in with the H-O-H.
Though one might might want to be wary.
The blessing does nothing to the water. In that respect, it is as effective as a homeopathic "remedy". Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.
As the above poster rightly said: Utter bollocks!
God can and does work through his creation, such as through the water in baptism or water blessed or consecrated for any other purpose. To believe otherwise is in effect atheism or at the very least somekind of deism.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Ahleal V
Shipmate
# 8404
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
...the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.
*claps*
Gosh! I'd never realised that! All my life, I've been confused until suddenly the clouds have parted and the null-not-light of reason has shone through! No more wicked superstition for me!
****.
AV
[ 24. September 2013, 11:00: Message edited by: Ahleal V ]
Posts: 499 | From: English Spires | Registered: Aug 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
|
Posted
Given the action of the water cycle, at what point does holy water cease to be holy water, or could we assume that by now, all water is?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
And it's all been through the bladders of Caesar, Napoleon, and anyone you care to think of. I'm thinking of you, Auntie Bessie.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras:
And you have to exorcise the salt that is put into the holy water, begging the question of whether exorcised salt tastes different to ordinary salt that may contain demons.
Countless vampire movies over the last 30 years prove that water with demonic salt will not work on vampires.
--------------------
Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, hot shoe me with a twerkin firkin!
Utter bollocks!
--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hairy Biker:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, hot shoe me with a twerkin firkin!
Utter bollocks!
In the name of Chthulhu, may all water attain to the plenitude of the pleroma, where it may ascend to the aerie regions, and then fall upon us like an old Irishman's gentle pee!
Oops, sorry, wrong forum. Where's the incontinence forum?
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Given the action of the water cycle, at what point does holy water cease to be holy water, or could we assume that by now, all water is?
At what point of ageing by usage (fading and wear and tear) does a national flag cease being a national flag? Since atoms and molecules of former, long decayed national flags will be found everywhere, is basically everything a national flag now?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.
Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Agree with that.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?
If not - what is the 'point?'
The holy water would taste slightly salty, I think. But it's not meant for drinking in any case.
This is not the case in Orthodoxy, where holy-water-drinking mini-rituals exist. Particularly on Theophany (Epiphany) at the Great Blessing of the Waters. (Recall Jan 6 in Orthodoxy commemorates our Lord's baptism, not the visit of the Wise Persons.)
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.
Whatever gave you the quaint notion that the purpose of holy water is to be a reminder of our baptism? Methinks you are projecting a low-church Protestant anti-sacramentalism onto high-church practices, where it most emphatically does not belong. Whatever you think about our holy water, our reasons for using it have nowt to do with whatever you think about it. Really this should be obvious.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
|
Posted
Mousie, in the Western Church, holy water used specifically in the ritual sprinkling before the principal Mass on a Sunday - "the Asperges" (though technically that name is taken from the portion of psalm Asperges Me sung during the sprinkling; during Eastertide the Vidi Aquam is sung instead) - certainly is a memorial of our baptism. In that usage there is certainly nothing anti-sacramentalist nor specifically protestant about the equation of the sprinkling of the congregation with holy water and the commemoration of our baptism.
[ 24. September 2013, 15:34: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
Posts: 7328 | From: Delaware | Registered: Apr 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
A number of years ago we went on a walking tour in Portugal. Were those holy water drinking fountains in all the church courtyards in small towns and villages? Beside the bone chapels? Are the bones in bone chapels especially blessed too? If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'? (While we're at it, why does Portuguese sound like Polish?)
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by TheAlethiophile:
Unfortunately, the fact that some catholics and even some christians think it does have some mystical properties is a sad indictment on the legacy of superstition, which really has nothing to do with the christian faith.
You would appear to lack understanding of the terms 'catholic', 'Christian', 'mystical', 'sad indictment', 'superstition', and 'Christian faith.'
That takes some doing.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
A number of years ago we went on a walking tour in Portugal. Were those holy water drinking fountains in all the church courtyards in small towns and villages? Beside the bone chapels? Are the bones in bone chapels especially blessed too? If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'? (While we're at it, why does Portuguese sound like Polish?)
Water from a drinking fountain is unlikely to have been blessed by a priest, so no, it is not holy water.
Water from a spring next to a particular shrine may be regarded as holy water, but this is an honorific holiness. It is not blessed.
Meanwhile, ritually blessed is not the same thing as potable, just as ritually clean is not the same thing as actually clean. Ritual cleansing uses only water (usually running water). Actual cleaning takes soap as well.
As for the bones, I cannot comment on whether they have been blessed or not because I am not familiar with Portugese rituals in this matter.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Water doesn't need to be blessed to be a reminder of our baptism.
The point is not whether the water needs it, but whether we need it.
The blessing of the water consecrates it to God's service, and reminds us that the same is true of us. It is certainly true that any water can remind us of our baptism, just as any drink can remind us of the champagne we drank at our wedding. But actual champagne is a better reminder.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Were those holy water drinking fountains in all the church courtyards in small towns and villages?
That's highly unlikely, unless there was some local custom of drinking holy water that was followed by such huge masses of people (streams of pilgrims) that installing a holy water drinking fountain makes sense. (Plus someone must have forgotten to put up a sign...)
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Beside the bone chapels? Are the bones in bone chapels especially blessed too?
Is there more than one Chapel of Bones? I would say that it is fairly likely that there was some kind of blessing of these bones, and be it only in terms of consecrating the chapel as a building of prayer. It is possible that there was a holy water urn in or close to the chapel. Sometimes Catholics take away some holy water for home usage, e.g., to fill a personal stoup in the doorway of their house. Rather than scooping it from the church font or stoups, they would get it then from a holy water urn. It should be quite recognisable though, typically there would be a sign.
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'?
Presumably because it is not fit for drinking? What has that to do with being holy?
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
(While we're at it, why does Portuguese sound like Polish?)
Because you speak neither.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
If the water is holy how come it said 'not fit for drinking'?
Andrew Brown (an atheist) had a good go at answering this question in last week's Grauniad
quote:
Believers see it is as place of purity, not hygiene. Hygiene is sterile, but purity sustains life.
--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Is there more than one Chapel of Bones?
It would seem that there is. There is one in Silves another in Campo Maior, and I think the one to which your refer is near Faro. It is the one in Silves that comes to my mind. These aren't my pictures, but they are from the one I recall: Silves, Al Cantarilha
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
leo
Shipmate
# 1458
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
to be a reminder of our baptism.
Whatever gave you the quaint notion that the purpose of holy water is to be a reminder of our baptism? Methinks you are projecting a low-church Protestant anti-sacramentalism onto high-church practices, where it most emphatically does not belong. [/QB][/QUOTE]
The Western (Catholic church) - who empties the holy water stoups during the Triduum and then unlocks toe waters of baptism at the Easter Vigil and refills them.
quote:
holy water reminds us of our Baptism, when by the invocation of the Holy Trinity and the pouring of holy water, we were set free from original sin and all sin, infused with sanctifying grace, incorporated into the Church, and given the title Son or Daughter of God.
says this RC priest in the Arlington catholic herald.
quote:
The blessing and sprinkling of holy water has evolved this way because of its connections with Baptism, the renewal of baptismal promises
says this RC Pastoral Liturgy site.
Now unless the Orthodoxen regard Roman Catholics as protestants, you are wrong.
[ 24. September 2013, 18:36: Message edited by: leo ]
--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
|
Posted
When I bless holy water (which I actually haven't done yet as we have a huge amount of it in the sacristy), I'll be participating in the embodied prayer of all who use it. Of course, people can pray privately using whatever water they want, but many of them want a cleric of the Church to be involved in their prayer to help connect their popular devotion with the Church's liturgy.
--------------------
Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
Posts: 8164 | From: Notre Dame, IN | Registered: Sep 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
blah fucking blah
It is as I figured. You left out the more catholic points of what he said and only posted the one that is protestant-safe, then mocked it. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?
There is no ontological change. Blessing of things aren't about that: they are about the setting aside of something for a particular use. The current book of blessings makes this less clear (concentrating rather on imprecations God's blessing on those who used the blessed object (which is a good and holy thing for which to pray); the older Roman Ritual, however, makes abundantly clear that the thing to be blessed is first exorcised of malevolent spirits and then set aside for holy use and holy use alone.
--------------------
ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Plique-à-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Fortunately the Church is incarnational in Spirit and understands basic human psychology, hence ignores such truisms in favour of the inspired and wise practice of rituals.
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?
Why take the piss like this?
--------------------
-
-
Posts: 333 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Jun 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
Can you please say what is meant by ontological change here? The substances of communion, bread and wine, do they experience this change, but the water doesn't? Then how might it be holy?
Further, what sort of of change might an average human convert to Christianity experience? On our deaths, what is then change in us?
Finally, what change, if any, did Jesus ever experience in his substance during his life and death? I think the debates about this have been the stuff of various heresies, though am not educated about this. I'm thinking about Jesus' baptism and the dove and voice scene, and the dying and the resurrection, but perhaps there are other markers in his life worthy of inclusion.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Can you please say what is meant by ontological change here? The substances of communion, bread and wine, do they experience this change, but the water doesn't? Then how might it be holy?
It is set apart for God. That's what 'holy' means.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
