homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » Holy Water (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: Holy Water
Mr. Rob
Shipmate
# 5823

 - Posted      Profile for Mr. Rob         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Karl Kroenen:
If you had a bottle of holy water and a bottle of normal unblessed tapwater, could someone tell which was which in a blind test?

If not - what is the 'point?'


Holy water tastes saltier than fresh tap water. Salt is added ceremonially to the water as it is blessed. But the actual point of the salt additive is to retard spoilage and bacterial contamination when the holy water comes into repeated contact with dipping fingers during the course of a week. Of course, that's especially true in the summer months.

*

Posts: 862 | From: USA | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
Galilit
Shipmate
# 16470

 - Posted      Profile for Galilit   Email Galilit   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
People fill up wee bottles (that they buy from our shop) or even 1.5 litre coca cola bottles (that they bring on their tour buses) with water from the Jordan River. Sometimes they would even buy a small coca cola from me, drink it fast and toddle off to the water's edge...
They take it to the farthest corners of the earth as gifts.
You can also buy ready-bottled in our shop. It's just water - not expressly blessed by anyone. Just bottled as is.
Two chappies used come in a white van to fill up jerry-cans and then take it to their "factory" where they would pour it into cute little bottles. Then they would sell it to our shop and it would be on the shelves for people to buy.
Then they thought they would save the petrol and just use the tap water - I mean it all came from the same holy Sea of Galilee originally dinnit?
But they were found out, charged, convicted and fined and worst of all put on the tv news. In Hebrew so most of the people who would have been concerned would not have understood or more likely would have been back home none the wiser.

IIRC they found fluoride in the tested samples of the alleged unholy water.
Can you taste fluoride?

--------------------
She who does Her Son's will in all things can rely on me to do Hers.

Posts: 624 | From: a Galilee far, far away | Registered: Jun 2011  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:

Can you taste fluoride?

I can taste all sorts of chemicals in tap water.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

I'm not sure what precisely you mean by "ontological change". Certainly there's no transubstantiation, holy water remains water. Also the holy status is "use-dependent". So the water in the stoup is holy, but the water vapour invariably rising from it is not. However, this is not simply arbitrary. Just because an atheist may consider holy water to be nothing but ordinary water, and could for example use it to wash his car, does not mean that the water uses its blessed status in the hands of an atheist. That water dripping off the car has been misused, desecrated. So in that sense there is a change to what the water is, independent of a particular human observer. The point is of course that the status of holy water is not just in the mind of the faithful, but also in the mind of God, who is invoked in the blessing. And God does not forget or make mistakes, though He will forgive.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Can you please say what is meant by ontological change here? The substances of communion, bread and wine, do they experience this change, but the water doesn't? Then how might it be holy?

Bread and wine stop being bread and wine and become the body and blood of Christ, although under the appearance (species) of bread and wine. There is a substantial change there which holy water does not undergo. It remains water. Also holy water is set apart for God (for uses pertaining to God), whereas the consecrated host is God. The holiness of the former is in the dedication, of the latter it is intrinsic.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Further, what sort of of change might an average human convert to Christianity experience? On our deaths, what is then change in us?

That takes us rather far afield now, doesn't it? Certainly the substance of being human does not change in either case (and in that sense then there is no ontological change), because we are not being saved as a piece of cheese (or whatever), but as humans.

quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Finally, what change, if any, did Jesus ever experience in his substance during his life and death?

None. If Jesus changed His substance, He would have ceased to be human and God. There would be debate on this with regards to His death and the meaning of "substance". However, these difficulties do not really say much about holy water, and so I'll leave it at that.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Angloid
Shipmate
# 159

 - Posted      Profile for Angloid     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
People fill up wee bottles (that they buy from our shop)

I trust you are using 'wee' in its Scottish sense. [Biased]

--------------------
Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
venbede
Shipmate
# 16669

 - Posted      Profile for venbede   Email venbede   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I haven't bothered reading all the posts here, but there seems to be something wildly amiss.

For Pete's sake, the use of holy water is a symbolic action. Believing it to have been blessed gives it further symbolic significance.

And I'm not one of these who think "symbolic" is the opposite of "real". As far as I can make out from post-structuralist philosophy and quantum physics, all our apprehension of reality is symbolic. There's no other way of understanding the world.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011  |  IP: Logged
Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992

 - Posted      Profile for Adeodatus     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

Don't knock placebos. They're sometimes the best remedy you can get.

[ 25. September 2013, 09:01: Message edited by: Adeodatus ]

--------------------
"What is broken, repair with gold."

Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I haven't bothered reading all the posts here, but there seems to be something wildly amiss.

For Pete's sake, the use of holy water is a symbolic action. Believing it to have been blessed gives it further symbolic significance.

And I'm not one of these who think "symbolic" is the opposite of "real". As far as I can make out from post-structuralist philosophy and quantum physics, all our apprehension of reality is symbolic. There's no other way of understanding the world.

Excellent. Yes, I was wondering how one would distinguish anything from anything really, if one dismisses symbol, ritual and narrative. I suppose the whole of religion would collapse, but so would the whole of culture, wouldn't it? The raw and the cooked, and so on.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740

 - Posted      Profile for quetzalcoatl   Email quetzalcoatl   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I read the Andrew Brown piece cited earlier, and I thought he made the very good point that water is a powerful symbol for many people, including people who aren't religious. For example, sitting by the sea can be a powerful and poignant experience for many, and the same with some rivers and lakes. I often walk by the Thames, and there is something awesome about it, something almost eternal, and it reminds me of Eliot:

The river is within us, the sea is all about us;
The sea is the land's edge also, the granite
Into which it reaches, the beaches where it tosses
Its hints of earlier and other creation.

The Dry Salvages.

So to ask if holy water is just like tap water somehow misses not just the point of religious symbolism and ritual, but for God's sake, the whole of human symbolism and ritual, by which we are surrounded, and which in fact constitute us as human in the first place.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011  |  IP: Logged
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086

 - Posted      Profile for Hairy Biker   Email Hairy Biker   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
So there is no ontological change in the after during blessing, only min the minds of the faithful? A sort of placebo?

Don't knock placebos. They're sometimes the best remedy you can get.
Indeed. Placebos are the most powerful drugs known to modern medicine. And if you take into account the fact that the placebo effect will enhance the chemical effect of every effective drug, there's even more in placebos than they're given credit for.

--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst

Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006  |  IP: Logged
leo
Shipmate
# 1458

 - Posted      Profile for leo   Author's homepage   Email leo   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
blah fucking blah

It is as I figured. You left out the more catholic points of what he said and only posted the one that is protestant-safe, then mocked it. [Roll Eyes]
Left out? We are debating copyright in The Styx. I only quoted the bits relevant to the point I made, which you disputed as being 'protestant' i.e. that holy water reminds us of our baptism.

I don't see how baptismal reminder is uncatholic - the hearty of catholic liturgy is the Easter Vigil, when this is all spelt out wonderfully.

I like both Trisagion's and InigoB's posts later on and need to think more about them.

Meanwhile, when my coffin is aspersed at some future date, I don't think my journey through Purgatory will be much effected by whether it is blessed or tap water. (Though i told my vicar i would come back and haunt him if he goes round the wrong way with the aspergillium. Then again, he's left-handed so may have an excuse.)

What are the bits i left out?

[ 25. September 2013, 19:07: Message edited by: leo ]

--------------------
My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001  |  IP: Logged
HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614

 - Posted      Profile for HughWillRidmee   Email HughWillRidmee   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Is there more than one Chapel of Bones?

It would seem that there is. There is one in Silves another in Campo Maior, and I think the one to which your refer is near Faro. It is the one in Silves that comes to my mind. These aren't my pictures, but they are from the one I recall: Silves, Al Cantarilha
Does this count?

--------------------
The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them...
W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)

Posts: 894 | From: Middle England | Registered: Apr 2010  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
blah fucking blah

As you know, personal attacks belong in hell.

Gwai,
Purgatory Host

I apologize for being intentionally and commandment-breakingly offensive outside of Hell.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076

 - Posted      Profile for Gwai   Email Gwai   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Thanks mousethief!

--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
churchgeek

Have candles, will pray
# 5557

 - Posted      Profile for churchgeek   Author's homepage   Email churchgeek   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
When I bless holy water (which I actually haven't done yet as we have a huge amount of it in the sacristy), I'll be participating in the embodied prayer of all who use it. Of course, people can pray privately using whatever water they want, but many of them want a cleric of the Church to be involved in their prayer to help connect their popular devotion with the Church's liturgy.

Does this mean that our sextons are blessing the water in the font every time they get out the hose and fill it up (I think on Thursday nights)? To my knowledge, no priest ever blesses it, but people use it as holy water. I figure that use blesses it. Well, I have to think that. Otherwise, we're playing a nasty trick on people. (I should point out that I have no say in the matter.)

Maybe this is a better test case than the blind taste test proposed in the OP.

--------------------
I reserve the right to change my mind.

My article on the Virgin of Vladimir

Posts: 7773 | From: Detroit | Registered: Feb 2004  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools