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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: what government services are you happy to receive?
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
It seems odd to me how many people think that if they don't receive poverty-related services, they don't benefit from government services.
What services do you receive from the government? Which are you especially happy to have available? If the government didn't provide it, would you be able to purchase it for yourself privately?
I'll start:
I went to government-funded schools from first grade through my master's degree. I got a good education, and I would never have been able to pay for it myself.
I use the public library. I own a lot of books, but I could never own every book I could ever want to read. Through the library, I can get any book, any music. It's amazing.
I stay in a cabin in the national forests for a few days every summer. It's a treasure.
We have an underground oil tank for our furnace. We have an insurance policy through the state that will pay for the cleanup if it ever leaks. That kind of insurance isn't available privately at any cost. We haven't ever used this insurance, but having it provides a great deal of peace of mind.
I buy prescription medications that are approved by and monitored by the FDA.
What about you?
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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chive
Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I'm a civil servant so fundamentally everything I have and own comes from the government. Apart from that I love the NHS and for various reasons am a big user of their services. I even get free prescriptions. I have access to 24/7 mental health care which means if I phone in a crisis I will have people round at my house looking after me at 3 in the morning if required. Even on Christmas morning (which has happened.)
I receive Disability Living Allowance and that money allows me to pay for therapy (the only medical service I have to pay for) and give petrol money to my friend who goes with me to places I'm too anxious to go myself.
I have good roads and good road lighting.
I know (or hope with the current pile of shites in power) that their is a safety net available to me if my health means I can no longer work.
I got free education up to masters degree level and I even got a grant that almost covered my annual rent.
I have police, ambulance, coastguard and fire brigade available if I require them.
I don't understand why people want smaller government. Although I disagree with some government policy, particularly things like trident, I am glad I pay tax and help pay for the things that I and everyone else use.
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'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
In term of both local and national governments, I benefit or have benefitted in the past from the following:
Roads, health, drainage*, sanitation*, water supply*, gas*, electricity supply*, education, libraries, child benefit and children's education, law enforcement (police and courts), land registration (so I can prove I own my home)...as starters for ten.
"But, apart from all that, what have the Romans ever done for us?"
* Now privatised, but were public utilities in my childhood.
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
Let's see what I use that I can think of. Bet there are more that I don't.
I definitely couldn't have afforded education without the free money and interest-free money I got for college.
Arranging unemployment insurance that I could collect when I needed it.
Public library! Oh man do I love our libraries!
While I wish the processing plants (for food) were better monitored, I am glad they are monitored at all.
Roads and transportation. And transportation is a huge one in a city where the train system does not break even, but is absolutely necessary to many of us.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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tclune
Shipmate
# 7959
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Posted
Is there a topic for debate here?
--Tom Clune, Purgatory Host
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This space left blank intentionally.
Posts: 8013 | From: Western MA | Registered: Jul 2004
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Matt Black
Shipmate
# 2210
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Posted
'Nanny state'/ 'big' government 'interference' in our lives? What do we pay our taxes for? That kind of thing I guess...
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"Protestant and Reformed, according to the Tradition of the ancient Catholic Church" - + John Cosin (1594-1672)
Posts: 14304 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Sipech
Shipmate
# 16870
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Posted
I think the debate might kick off if there's a service or benefit which someone might be receiving which they would rather not.
I might have stated job seekers' allowance, which I received for several months last year while I was out of work. Though my reason for not wanting to receive it was because I wanted a job, not because I think subsidising the living costs of those out of work is a bad thing.
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I try to be self-deprecating; I'm just not very good at it.
Twitter: http://twitter.com/TheAlethiophile
Posts: 3791 | From: On the corporate ladder | Registered: Jan 2012
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
Is there a topic for debate here?
Over on the "how rich is rich" thread, someone said that the rich consume more government services than the poor, and that statement was challenged. The rich, after all, don't need government-provided healthcare or education. So I want to talk about what government services folks who aren't poor receive.
I think it's important to understand what the government pays for, for all of us. Taxes are not a means of redistributing wealth from hardworking, industrious rich folks to folks who are too lazy to work. I'm asserting that we all, every single one of us, benefits from government services, both directly and indirectly.
I'd be more than happy for someone to jump in and explain how they don't receive any services from the government, since there are apparently folks around here who believe that. In the mean time, the argument that we all do receive such benefits is being built.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Uriel
Shipmate
# 2248
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Posted
Aside from the services I directly use (education for my kids, hospitals when sick, publicly maintained roads I drive on, etc.) I indirectly use a huge amount that comes from public services. When I go into a shop the person who I deal with is literate and numerate because of public education, and often healthy because of the NHS. That my house is not plagued by crime is due to the police, probation and judicial systems. And my business is only possible because I have a healthy, literate market to trade with.
So when it is said that the rich don't use as much public services as the poor, I would disagree, in that it is only looking at the services directly accessed. The rich are only able to make the financial gains that they do because of the publicly funded infrastructure and conditions that permit trade and wealth creation, such as roads, a healthy and educated workforce and market, strong action on crime, national defence, etc. etc. Most of this is taken for granted, but when you look at how many companies want to trade in the UK compared with Somalia, you suddenly realise that you need a decent sized (and adequately funded) state to facilitate wealth creation.
Posts: 687 | From: Somerset, UK | Registered: Jan 2002
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
I'd be more than happy for someone to jump in and explain how they don't receive any services from the government, since there are apparently folks around here who believe that. In the mean time, the argument that we all do receive such benefits is being built.
So if that walking talking straw man / cartoon character would please present himself or herself, we can get this show on the road.
Signed, Og, who is learning Spanish using CDs from the local library, appreciates that the fire department will save his house if it catches fire.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Over on the "how rich is rich" thread, someone said that the rich consume more government services than the poor, and that statement was challenged. The rich, after all, don't need government-provided healthcare or education. So I want to talk about what government services folks who aren't poor receive.
The better question, given what I actually posted, would be which government services rich people receive that poor people don't.
Education? Everyone gets that. Healthcare (in the UK)? everyone gets that. Transport? Everyone gets that. Emergency services? Everyone gets them as and when required. Libraries? Available to all.
To say that rich people don't use any government services is ludicrous. But to say that they consume significantly more government resources than poor people needs to be backed up.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
The list is endless
First, my education. Went to public primary and secondary schools. BA and MA in private colleges but I could not have done that without government backed student loans.
Law Enforcement helps keep me safe--though not to pleased when it is me getting the ticket.
Regulation of public utilities to help keep my power rates low.
A plane just flew over the house. I am thankful the government provides funding for airports, develops safety regulations, enforces those regulations, provides flight control.
Food Safety regs
Banking regulation
I could go on. These were the ones that came to the top of my head literally and figuratively.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
To say that rich people don't use any government services is ludicrous. But to say that they consume significantly more government resources than poor people needs to be backed up.
Rich people simply own more stuff. More/bigger houses, more land, more/bigger cars. One of the primary functions of the state (certainly from a rich person's point of view) is to stop us plebs from rising up, confiscating their stuff and/or burning it down, no matter how they obtained said riches.
That alone should make the richest pathetically grateful to the state and shower it with money, so that the state can keep on protecting their grossly privileged lives.
( ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
One of the primary functions of the state...is to stop us plebs from rising up
Of course it is! Because once you've risen up, you'll no longer be dependent on the state...
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
From the federal government, the enumerated items of Article 1, Section 8.
From the state government, those it is instructed to do by the state constitution.
In North Carolina, education is covered by Article 9. NC Constitution
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
The two I am most grateful for are the Health Service and the Education System.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Anyuta
Shipmate
# 14692
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Posted
well, I like to breathe clean air. I like to drink clean water. I like to eat inspected, uncontaminated food. I like to know that when I take a drug, it's what it says it is and generally has been tested to do what it says it does.
police
fire fighters
ambulance
water/sewer (although that could be privatized, but where I live it's provided by the county. I do pay for it, though, so not sure if this counts)
when I use a bank, I know my investment is insured, and regulated (at least somewhat).
waste removal (hauled by a private company, but sent to a municipal landfill)
certain legal advice is free (county or state funded). so is other advice available though the state cooperative extension service.
that's in addition to the more obvious things like education, roads and parks that others have listed.
what do my taxes pay for that I don't approve of? wars. subsidies for big business. logging on federal land. farming/grazing on federal land. aid for developers (housing) for infrastructure to support housing developments that I don't believe should be build, let alone supported by taxes. road improvements which just allow more construction further out, thus increasing traffic on those roads, rather than investing in mass transit.
I"m sure I could make longer lists on both sides.
Posts: 764 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2009
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Josephine:
Over on the "how rich is rich" thread, someone said that the rich consume more government services than the poor, and that statement was challenged. The rich, after all, don't need government-provided healthcare or education. So I want to talk about what government services folks who aren't poor receive.
The better question, given what I actually posted, would be which government services rich people receive that poor people don't.
That insurance for the underground oil tank? You have to be rich enough to be a homeowner to qualify for that. Poor people don't get it, because they don't own homes.
When you buy private insurance, you pay more if you're covering more property, or more valuable property. Fire and police protection are insurance-like services, and the rich are getting a far greater value for their fire protection and police protection than the poor are. (And police often don't even respond to calls in poor areas, and fire department response times are slower.)
Likewise, the rich get better public schools than the poor do, with better teachers, nicer buildings, newer books and equipment, and smaller classes.
The poor don't receive much in the way of benefit from public funding for airports and the like, since they don't fly.
I'm sure you can think of some as well.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Education? Everyone gets that. Healthcare (in the UK)? everyone gets that. Transport? Everyone gets that. Emergency services? Everyone gets them as and when required. Libraries? Available to all.
Everyone may have access to free education, but if it is used by all classes equally your country is much more drastically different from mine than I think it is. Certainly here the well off get MUCH MUCH better schooling than those who are not and it is a pretty steady graph that the better off you are the more you take advantage of good schooling. Even transport is different. For one thing, the roads in commercial neighborhoods--where property is probably not owned by the poor--and in very nice neighborhoods are always better than they are in normal neighborhoods. It's not just that though. I know that in my town train service to well-off areas is somehow much better than to say the south side which is coincidentally I'm sure much poorer and much less white. Healthcare is obviously different between our countries, but again emergency services fits the argument better than you imply. Response time is waay better in some neighborhoods than others. Unshockingly, the rich people in the gold coast aren't the ones who have to wait forever. Heck, even libraries, looking at the CPL map, it looks notably denser on the north side.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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JoannaP
Shipmate
# 4493
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Everyone may have access to free education, but if it is used by all classes equally your country is much more drastically different from mine than I think it is. Certainly here the well off get MUCH MUCH better schooling than those who are not and it is a pretty steady graph that the better off you are the more you take advantage of good schooling.
In the UK, the well off get much, much better schooling because they pay for it. Likewise many wealthy people pay for private healthcare rather than rely on the NHS. So the two most obvious services provided by the state are frequently not used by the rich.
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"Freedom for the pike is death for the minnow." R. H. Tawney (quoted by Isaiah Berlin)
"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
Posts: 1877 | From: England | Registered: May 2003
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
If you're richer you pay less percentage of total income as tax. Not exactly a service, but certainly meaningful.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Bene Gesserit
Shipmate
# 14718
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Posted
OK, I’m thinking as I type here, which is probably not a good idea. My Other Half and I are British and live in Britain, and we are both proud of e.g. the National Health Service and our libraries. I know that government subsidised my degree studies and I am very grateful for that.
The one thing we do ‘get’ from the state that a household where folks are unemployed or earning a low wage probably wouldn’t is the effective subsidy on nearly all rail fares – and travel is actually an increasingly rare treat given how rail fares have risen! I am happy to benefit from that subsidy but sad to know that these days, rail travel is increasingly out of the question for the unemployed or low paid.
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Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, ora pro nobis peccatoribus
Posts: 405 | From: Flatlands of the East | Registered: Apr 2009
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
In the UK, the well off get much, much better schooling because they pay for it.
They do pay for it. They pay for it by buying a house within the catchment area of the school of their choice, pricing out the less well-off and renters, and forming an enclave of rich people sending their children to a state-funded-but-very-nice school.
That's how it works, right?
(edited for borked code)
[ 24. September 2013, 19:35: Message edited by: Doc Tor ]
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
Happens all the time round us (SE London/Kent). Those that can afford it buy somewhere close to a good primary school, get first child in, then at some point in the next few years move somewhere close to a good secondary school, use a "sibling rule" to get second etc child into the primary school, then proximity to get into the secondary school.
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
They do pay for it. They pay for it by buying a house within the catchment area of the school of their choice, pricing out the less well-off and renters, and forming an enclave of rich people sending their children to a state-funded-but-very-nice school.
Which is why the Assisted Places Scheme was such a good thing. We should have privatized the state schools and made it the default.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
They do pay for it. They pay for it by buying a house within the catchment area of the school of their choice, pricing out the less well-off and renters, and forming an enclave of rich people sending their children to a state-funded-but-very-nice school.
Which is why the Assisted Places Scheme was such a good thing. We should have privatized the state schools and made it the default.
No, terrible idea - giving away public assets to private concerns to make a profit on them is madness.
Bussing, however, upsets all the right people - difficult to work in rural areas, but easy enough in towns and cities.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
I'd say that Federal Deposit Insurance favors the rich. Interestingly, while it is only supposed to protect a set amount (currently $250,00 per institution account), in practice every penny on deposit has been covered. Thus, the rich have been protected even from their own folly.
Likewise, government oversight (such as it has been or is) of the securities sector helps the rich far more than the poor.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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ldjjd
Shipmate
# 17390
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Posted
As to roads, it has been my experience that the wealth of an area can very often be determined by the condition of its roads.
Posts: 294 | Registered: Oct 2012
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Bullfrog.
Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
They do pay for it. They pay for it by buying a house within the catchment area of the school of their choice, pricing out the less well-off and renters, and forming an enclave of rich people sending their children to a state-funded-but-very-nice school.
Which is why the Assisted Places Scheme was such a good thing. We should have privatized the state schools and made it the default.
In that case the already overworked, understaffed, and underfunded would end up even more overworked, understaffed, and underfunded. Brilliant!
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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg
Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Everyone may have access to free education, but if it is used by all classes equally your country is much more drastically different from mine than I think it is. Certainly here the well off get MUCH MUCH better schooling than those who are not and it is a pretty steady graph that the better off you are the more you take advantage of good schooling.
In the UK, the well off get much, much better schooling because they pay for it. Likewise many wealthy people pay for private healthcare rather than rely on the NHS. So the two most obvious services provided by the state are frequently not used by the rich.
Except of course they do use them, because the NHS and the state school system educates and maintains the health of the working people who make their wealth possible.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Currently, free bus rides, free prescriptions and optician's checkups, soon - winter fuel allowance.
Supposedly they come from the government but actually I paid in 40 years' national insurance.
All very lovely, and I look forward to them myself, but in the UK at least, national insurance isn't "insurance". What you were paying for in those 40 years was other people's bus passes, prescriptions, etc. Now, other people are paying for yours.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Roads and govt subsidised public transport are the first 2 that spring to mind - although transport subsidies here are nowhere near as substantial s in Europe generally. When we retire and stop paid work, we shall be entitled to Seniors' Cards, not means tested, which will give us very low local fares. The ABC - our equivalent o the BBC and CBC - and the Aust Opera rely on govt money. Air safety, although I imagine that most if not all of that is recouped via govt charges on airlines and thus from thgse buying tickets. We pay private health insurance, so that's our own cost. But if we were catastrophically ill, there are safety nets from which we would benefit, Our parents had no govt assistance for school fees, but these days, payments to private schools have reduced the fees we would otherwise pay for Dlet's education.
Indirectly of course,we and the rest of the community benefit from the provision of education, health, and a wide range of other services to those who cannot pay. Neither of us begrudges this at all. It's not charity, it's part of being a civilised community.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Higgs Bosun
Shipmate
# 16582
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Currently, free bus rides, free prescriptions and optician's checkups, soon - winter fuel allowance.
Supposedly they come from the government but actually I paid in 40 years' national insurance.
All very lovely, and I look forward to them myself, but in the UK at least, national insurance isn't "insurance". What you were paying for in those 40 years was other people's bus passes, prescriptions, etc. Now, other people are paying for yours.
Indeed. And I wonder if one had not paid the NI, but saved it, if one's contributions would have actually provided the money for these benefits. For instance, to get an annuity which pays £5000/year which is inflation linked like the state pension when male and 65, one would probably need a lump sum significantly in excess of £100,000.
Posts: 313 | From: Near the Tidal Thames | Registered: Aug 2011
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
I think Doc Tor and Karl have already answered this comment from Marvin: quote:
In the UK, the well off get much, much better schooling because they pay for it. Likewise many wealthy people pay for private healthcare rather than rely on the NHS. So the two most obvious services provided by the state are frequently not used by the rich.
EVERYONE, not just the rich, pays for the NHS and the schools. The poor pay proportionately more of their income in tax (VAT, property taxes, it's not just about income tax you know). Presumably you are talking here about people who are rich enough to afford private schools for their children. Many of these people save money by putting their children into a (good) state-funded primary school and transferring to a private secondary school when the child reaches the age of 11. And as several people have already pointed out, the quality of the state-run part of the education system is variable. Your children will get a much better education if you are rich enough to buy a house in the catchment area of a good school and intelligent enough to game the system.
In healthcare, almost everyone uses the emergency services (which are publicly funded). Private health insurance generally covers things like elective surgery and regular checkups for the 'worried well'. If you develop complications during your elective surgery (knee replacement, gallstone removal, breast implants, whatever) you will probably be transferred to an NHS hospital. So it's just as well the public system is there to deal with the fallout from the private hospitals, isn't it? Plus all the staff in private hospitals have probably been trained in the NHS and some of them might work part-time for the NHS.
In this country the private healthcare system is massively subsidised by the NHS, which provides the (relatively) rich with a safety net for all those expensive emergency procedures that aren't profitable enough for their private hospital to bother with, training for their medical personnel and an endless supply of the lower orders to try out new treatments on.
So rich people also benefit from the NHS and the state-run education system, over and above the more indirect benefits of having an educated and (reasonably) health workforce to exploit.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The better question, given what I actually posted, would be which government services rich people receive that poor people don't.
Start with The Land Registry. You do not own land unless the society you live in agrees that you do. Poor people don't generally own houses.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Just thought of another one after reading Belle Ringer's thread about rats in All Saints; pest control. Our council charges a (moderate) fee for pest removal. We haven't had rats but we did have to call them a couple of times to get wasps' nests removed. They came within a couple of days, zapped the wasps, job done.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Higgs Bosun:
Indeed. And I wonder if one had not paid the NI, but saved it, if one's contributions would have actually provided the money for these benefits. For instance, to get an annuity which pays £5000/year which is inflation linked like the state pension when male and 65, one would probably need a lump sum significantly in excess of £100,000.
Actually, if you take into account that your employer pays NI too, it's probably comparable. I just did a little mental arithmentic backflip and worked out that in 40 years of working I'll have paid something like £70,000 in NI. I don't know what my employers will have paid because I can't remember the contribution rates offhand.
A lot has been said on this thread about private healthcare versus the NHS. People tend to forget that the NHS provides (heavily subsidised)training for nurses and doctors who later go into private practice; the NHS takes on the difficult or unfashionable treatments that private parctice won't; and when private practitioners screw up, it's NHS emergency departments that have to put it right. I don't know if there have been any studies of the cost to the NHS of supporting private healthcare, but I'd guess it's a few billion.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
(Apologies: dawdling over my last post, I hadn't seen Jane R's, which makes substantially the same points about private healthcare and the NHS.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
I'm grateful for any number of things I get from my government, but at the top of the list I have to put my hearing aids.
I got these through my state's Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, a subset of the Department of Education. Voc Rehab runs on 1/4 state money and 3/4 federal money. I work for near-poverty wages; hearing aids are very expensive; at the time I applied, aids were not covered by any insurance.
Yet the simple fact is that, when I first applied, my hearing deficit made me significantly less-effective at my job. Now, years later, the aging process has diminished my always-poor hearing to the point that I cannot perform some essential functions of my job at all without them.
Voc Rehab paid for my hearing aids in full -- a cost that equals 1/7 of my annual before-tax salary. There's no way I could have purchased these on my own. Without them, I'd be forced to apply for Social Security Disability. I'd have to stop working, and I would be living an existence so marginal as to be miserable.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
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Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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justlooking
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# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Currently, free bus rides, free prescriptions and optician's checkups, soon - winter fuel allowance.
Supposedly they come from the government but actually I paid in 40 years' national insurance.
All very lovely, and I look forward to them myself, but in the UK at least, national insurance isn't "insurance". What you were paying for in those 40 years was other people's bus passes, prescriptions, etc. Now, other people are paying for yours.
Like Leo I too am grateful for my free bus pass etc plus my state pension. What I was paying for in NI contributions to receive my state pension and SERPS addition was an entitlement. My SERPS addition is based on my earnings not on what anyone else is earning now.
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The better question, given what I actually posted, would be which government services rich people receive that poor people don't.
Start with The Land Registry. You do not own land unless the society you live in agrees that you do. Poor people don't generally own houses.
If there were no government you would own whatever land you said you owned as long as you could kick the ass of anyone who said different.
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Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Currently, free bus rides, free prescriptions and optician's checkups, soon - winter fuel allowance.
Supposedly they come from the government but actually I paid in 40 years' national insurance.
All very lovely, and I look forward to them myself, but in the UK at least, national insurance isn't "insurance". What you were paying for in those 40 years was other people's bus passes, prescriptions, etc. Now, other people are paying for yours.
And that, really, is where this turns from a Heaven thread into a Purgatory thread. We can all identify a government program that we like and benefit from. And we all pay for them. Now that I own a house and see property tax on my monthly statement, I become acutely aware of how I am affected each time we approve another tax increase (all tax increases in this state have to be voter approved; it may sound like a good idea, but it is actually a real pain to work out). Specifically, I have to pay x more dollars a month, which means x fewer dollars a month to spend on food, insurance, fuel, utilities, and entertainment. At the end of some months, having that x dollars in my pocket would make a real difference. So the discussion has to go beyond "can't the government do wonderful things for us." We have to look at how we fund the government, how much revenue it is practicable for the government to bring in, what we are willing to sacrifice to bring in more money, and how we divvy up what we have brought in. I don't think we have hit on an ideal solution in the United States; far from it. But somewhere between "they want to kill big bird" and "they are turning us into Greece" is an adult discussion of what tasks the government can do more efficiently and fairly than the private sector, and how we fund it so that it can do those tasks.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
I am rich (though not according to Marvin's definition) I benefit in a number of ways that people who are poor don't.
The goverment paid for primary education like everyone else - but also my public boarding school secondary education because my father was employed abroad on government business (and yes, it does depend on seniority and therefore income - they paid much less towards the education of the children of squaddies stationed overseas permenantly). They paid for my first degree like others, and for my doctorate because I was going to work in health care. I own a house, recorded on the land registry - on which no inheritance tax was paid because of the frankly massive amount you can inherit before it counts. The proportion of my income I spend on necessities is lower than people on benefits. I am able to buy more durable products so they don't break and need replacing all the time - because I can spend more on the initial purchase. Simliarly, I can indulge my conscience in ethical purchases for the same reason.
I can afford to kick up a fuss at work, because I don't live in fear of losing my job - I know I could rent out space in my house if I needed to. (For which incidentally, I get a tax rebate - you rent one room and don't charge above a certain amount you are not obliged to declare it. If I was in a council flat, I wouldn't be able to take a lodger to cover the bed room tax though.)
I could go on, but it makes me uncomfortable. And I think that is one of the reasons no one will admit they are rich, it sounds too much like you are bragging. The definition of ony if you never need to work again, or never worry about money again is just ridiculous - as I said before, that is like saying you are only intelligent if you are genius. You are talking about a tiny fraction of the population who make obscene amounts of money. Rich cuts in before that.
Pick a meaningful definition - someone on double the average wage for example, or top quartile of the population.
[crosspost]
[ 25. September 2013, 16:29: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
I'm grateful for any number of things I get from my government, but at the top of the list I have to put my hearing aids.
That's the next issue I need to face - though i am not sure I want the volume of unfamiliar noise that will come in its wake. But don't want to leave it so late that they nerve endings are too deadened to make such aids effective.
But good old NHS! To go privately would cost me, they told me, £4 grand for the minimum.
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Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The better question, given what I actually posted, would be which government services rich people receive that poor people don't.
Start with The Land Registry. You do not own land unless the society you live in agrees that you do. Poor people don't generally own houses.
If there were no government you would own whatever land you said you owned as long as you could kick the ass of anyone who said different.
Indeed. And they'd own it when they kicked your ass. When, not if. You'll never always be the strongest, the fastest, or the most connected.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
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Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
That's the next issue I need to face - though i am not sure I want the volume of unfamiliar noise that will come in its wake.
. . .
But good old NHS! To go privately would cost me, they told me, £4 grand for the minimum.
Yes; you can get quite a fancy car (in the US, anyway) for the price of decent hearing aids.
They now have aids with volume control adjustable by the wearer-- very helpful during the adjustment period.
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by JoannaP:
In the UK, the well off get much, much better schooling because they pay for it. Likewise many wealthy people pay for private healthcare rather than rely on the NHS. So the two most obvious services provided by the state are frequently not used by the rich.
Oh no.
The idea that those who pay for private healthcre just does not work. The ambulance service and Accident and Emergency units in hospitals are provided as part of the NHS.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
The better question, given what I actually posted, would be which government services rich people receive that poor people don't.
Start with The Land Registry. You do not own land unless the society you live in agrees that you do. Poor people don't generally own houses.
If there were no government you would own whatever land you said you owned as long as you could kick the ass of anyone who said different.
Indeed. And they'd own it when they kicked your ass. When, not if. You'll never always be the strongest, the fastest, or the most connected.
Isn't that how an awful of land has come to be owned in any event? If you are better armed you can run the inhabitants off their land. It happened in Britain after the Norman Conquest, during the Highland clearances, the Plantation of Ireland and as a consequence of the Enclosures Acts. I'm sure similar events occurred in the USA, Australia and just about any modern nation.
I currently pay about £600 per month out of my pay packet for National Insurance Contributions and Income tax. Over the years our five children have been born and educated for a total of 66 years between them. As a family we have had various needs satisfied by the NHS used leisure facilities provided by city, town and county councils and they take the trash away each week. Eventually I hope to retire and get a state pension of c £7500 per year. My income has been higher at various times in the past than it is now, so taking £600 per month as a baseline for 45 years gives a sum of £324000 and that's before council taxes/rates and indirect taxes are accounted for. Overall, I should think the government has had and will get about a cool half-a-million out of me.
But then, taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed. Being taxed is far better than having such a low income that you aren't liable to pay tax!
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Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
But then, taxes are not levied for the benefit of the taxed.
That's nuts. The taxes I pay for the fire department are for my benefit. The taxes I pay for roads are for my benefit. The taxes I pay for the police service are for my benefit. Need I go on?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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