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Source: (consider it) Thread: Religion's Evolutionary Family Tree
Horseman Bree
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Where else but on Hemant Mehta's "Friendly Atheist" blog would one find links to "Religion's Evolutionary Family Tree"?

The site is actually Russia-based, but the diagram is labelled in English on that link.

There! That should waste a whole afternoon!

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It's Not That Simple

Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
EtymologicalEvangelical
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Very colourful.

And the point of it is?

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Horseman Bree
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Sometimes things are done because they can be done. Enjoy.

But:
One incidental point is that every major religion has had schisms, splits and actual wars, however peaceful they claim to be.

Another is that a very few have actually recombined.

And a third is that some of the splits are not as simple as is often made out, such as one can see in the various lines out of the Great Schism.

OK, your turn. What point do you see? There must be something besides "colourful".

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It's Not That Simple

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Horseman Bree
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Sorry, I thought I had posted this in Heaven. Could a kind host please move this over?

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It's Not That Simple

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Doublethink.
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# 1984

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I think it is a lovely idea - but it displays quite partial histories. Where are the norse, greek and roman Gods ? Where are the African pre-colonial faiths and traditions. I think it doesn't show the cultural appropriations and cross polinations.

It would be a fantastic long term art project to try to refine and extend it.

I wonder if the designer is aware of the pagan resonances of using a tree as an image in the first place ?

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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SvitlanaV2
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Looks fascinating, but it would be easier to read on a poster. If someone printed it in a broadsheet newspaper I'd buy it. It would be a good resource to have.

I don't see division so much as interconnectedness. After all, it's a 'tree'.

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Mudfrog
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Hmmmph!! He must be a friend of Zach82 because he hasn't listed The Salvation Army! Grrrrrr

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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LeRoc

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quote:
Mudfrog: Hmmmph!! He must be a friend of Zach82 because he hasn't listed The Salvation Army! Grrrrrr
If it is any comfort, my church isn't there either.

I also don't see many churches from the evangelical/pentecostal range. Or am I looking wrong?

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Mudfrog: Hmmmph!! He must be a friend of Zach82 because he hasn't listed The Salvation Army! Grrrrrr
If it is any comfort, my church isn't there either.

I also don't see many churches from the evangelical/pentecostal range. Or am I looking wrong?

Pentecostal has its own single branch but there are no smaller groupings say like with 'Methodism'

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Was Chalcedon really that localised to the Oriental Orthodox Churches?

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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I notice that the tree roots are just a little earlier than 4000 BCE (or BC in "old money", as I prefer). Hmmm... could it be that "the friendly atheist" is a YEC and fan of Bishop Ussher, I wonder... [Snigger]

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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Was Chalcedon really that localised to the Oriental Orthodox Churches?

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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/

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Doublethink.
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There are loads of methodist churches listed, you need to enlarge the picture.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Lyda*Rose

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Whatever the intention of the tree's creator (probably just to show how confused religionists are), I find it fascinating. I bookmarked it for later perusal. [Smile]

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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano

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mousethief

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The "splitting" is of questionable meaningfulness. Many of the "splits" in "mainstream" Orthodoxy are administrative, not a matter of changing the faith or breaking communion. You might as well call it a "split" if a large diocese calves off a smaller diocese with its own new cathedral and bishop.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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LeRoc

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quote:
Doublethink: There are loads of methodist churches listed, you need to enlarge the picture.
I saw them, but what about for example the Assemblies of God? According to Wikipedia they have over 66 million members. And as you well know, there are many more. Splitting the Orthodox church into all these national branches but lumping all Pentecostal churches as one seems a bit silly to me.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Doublethink.
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There are entire faith traditions missing, I think it reflects the knowledge base of the creator rather than editing decision. Or possibly a database they happened to access. Their summary of Quaker history is quite weird and US centric, most Quakers live in Kenya but you wouldn't know it from that tree.

I also think that it is an evolution on the basis of each grouping's own account, rather than cultural influences.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Jengie jon

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I looked at the Reformed bit, and I know it is wrong. It has all the Reformed lines as dividing and none as merging. Let me assure you now that if the Reformed tradition only divided there would be at least ten times as many Reformed denominations as there are at present. We are actually merging at a rate that is the same order of magnitude as which we are diverging.

In other words there is a hidden message that religion is about division which can not be sustained by the actual facts on the ground.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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SvitlanaV2
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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Pentecostal has its own single branch but there are no smaller groupings say like with 'Methodism'

Considering that Pentecostalism is probably the fastest growing branch of Christianity at present, and that it's had considerable influence on other branches, it seems absurd to limit its many manifestations simply to the heading 'Pentecostal'.
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Horseman Bree
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But how much experience of Pentecostals would residents of Russia have?

I think there is a problem of not enough information in making the chart - but it should be possible to expand and correct it.

What IS there is interesting, though.

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It's Not That Simple

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SvitlanaV2
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Well, it's not just a chart of Russian religious groups, is it? If they can include a whole host of Buddhist offshoots then why not Pentecostal ones?

I assume that Pentecostalism is an increasing presence in Russia, if only due to immigration. Since the fall of Communism foreign evangelists have probably made inroads there, as they have in other countries.

It's certainly an interesting chart, though.

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tclune
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I don't get how some of the splits move back in time after coming into existence (Gnosticism, for example.) What is that trying to convey?

--Tom Clune

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LeRoc

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quote:
tclune: I don't get how some of the splits move back in time after coming into existence (Gnosticism, for example.) What is that trying to convey?
It is a Mystery that you will only understand once you reach the secret Knowledge.

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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

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Timothy the Obscure

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
There are entire faith traditions missing, I think it reflects the knowledge base of the creator rather than editing decision. Or possibly a database they happened to access. Their summary of Quaker history is quite weird and US centric, most Quakers live in Kenya but you wouldn't know it from that tree.

I also think that it is an evolution on the basis of each grouping's own account, rather than cultural influences.

Even from a US-centric POV they got the Quaker bit all wrong, ending up with a few of the service and social justice organizations rather than the major divisions (Friends General Conference, Friends United Meeting, and Evangelical Friends International, which would link to most Kenyan Friends). And it doesn't include the link between Taoism and Zen Buddhism. It's an interesting idea, but the execution is disappointing.

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When you think of the long and gloomy history of man, you will find more hideous crimes have been committed in the name of obedience than have ever been committed in the name of rebellion.
  - C. P. Snow

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The "splitting" is of questionable meaningfulness. Many of the "splits" in "mainstream" Orthodoxy are administrative, not a matter of changing the faith or breaking communion. You might as well call it a "split" if a large diocese calves off a smaller diocese with its own new cathedral and bishop.

ISTM that these days most of the Protestant splits are de facto administrative rather than doctrinal. I mean, the division between Methodist and Baptist (as perceived by Methodists and Baptists) isn't anything like the schism between Catholics and Orthodox (as perceived by Catholics and Orthodox). Neither, for example, would dream of suggesting the other was not part of the One True Church.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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Gwai
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Really? I've heard baptists say very seriously that Methodists were probably not saved.

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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.


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Bullfrog.

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I've heard baptists say that other baptists aren't saved.

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Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

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SvitlanaV2
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Unlike their American brethren, modern British Baptists probably can't quite afford to dismiss everyone else's tradition as unChristian. None of the historical British churches have avoided the debilitating effects of secularisation, which makes all of them a bit more humble in that regard.

Nevertheless, my impression is that in some ways the differences between modern Methodism and the Baptist Church are even greater now than they would have been, 100 or 200 years ago. That must have an effect on attitudes, even though most British Baptists would surely be too polite to raise the matter in Methodist company.

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Ricardus
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Really? I've heard baptists say very seriously that Methodists were probably not saved.

In my UK experience that would be the lunatic fringe.

Anyway, being saved or not isn't quite the same as being the One True Church. What I'm trying to get at is that, AIUI, for Catholics and Orthodox your legitimacy as a church depends on your succession from the original apostolic foundation, so if you schismatise away from the Church, that is a Very Bad Thing because you cut yourself off from your ecclesiastical fons et origo and lose your ecclesiastical legitimacy.

Conversely, for those in a more congregational tradition, the legitimacy of the church comes from the congregation itself, and the fact that there are multiple denominational groupings above the congregational level is less of a big deal, because it isn't ultimately the supra-congregational organisations that define the church.

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Then the dog ran before, and coming as if he had brought the news, shewed his joy by his fawning and wagging his tail. -- Tobit 11:9 (Douai-Rheims)

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The "splitting" is of questionable meaningfulness. Many of the "splits" in "mainstream" Orthodoxy are administrative, not a matter of changing the faith or breaking communion.

You could say the same about the "splits" between the various national Lutheran churches in Europe, and between them and the Anglicans.

For example the CofE was never actually out of communion with the Church of Sweden or Church of Norway. And no-one much thought it was out of communion with the German non-episcopal Lutherans in the 17th or 18th centuries - it didn't become a hot issue until the Oxford Movement gained enough influence in the Church of England to get their way over the Apostolic Succssion - sometime between 1841 and 1881.

Samuel Gobat

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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ken
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quote:
Originally posted by tclune:
I don't get how some of the splits move back in time after coming into existence (Gnosticism, for example.) What is that trying to convey?

--Tom Clune

Also they spin the Gnostic groups (including even the Manicheans and the Mandeans, off of early Christianity, when it would be more accurate to bring them out of Zoroastrianism or Second Temple Judaism or pagan mystery cults and have them join onto some strands of Christianity. (Or all of the above, religions can have multiple roots)

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Ken

L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.

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