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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How do you handle a prayer or song you disagree with?
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
I refrained from reading the last verse of Psalm 137 yesterday.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Belle Ringer
There were some other pianists, including me, at my old church, but because the organist never allowed anyone else to use their skills while she was there others rarely got into the habit of playing the piano there. So be aware that you may well have pianists in the congregation, but they've never come forward due to lack of encouragement!
If needed we used CDs of traditional hymns. I also bought a backing track DVD of worship songs and I can put a link to the website if you want. I used the DVD for the choir rather than the congregation. Finally, I once attended a church where they simply used percussion if they didn't have a pianist (or a piano).
But if you church has a band then it should be able to manage without a pianist!
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by shamwari:
The part answer is let the person responsible for the service ( the preacher in my tradition) choose the music.
And if you disagree with him/her on an on-going basis then quit.
This business of allowing anyone to choose the music regardless of whether it fits within the overall theme of the service is anathema to me.
Agree.
We have a committee of musicians and ministers plus people in the pew that choose hymns (6 so not a huge group). When i did it myself i became almost hated!
If people keep choosing hymns with dodgy theology, then one has to ask whether this church is right for me.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I suppose all Christians should think about this potential problem before they join choirs or worship bands, especially if their churches are more evangelical than they are.
Why only "more evangelical"?
Can't theologically orthodox Christians have scruples about being asked to sing wishy-washy liberal stuff they don't agree with?
(As for Amazing Grace I love it, words and music - and all you musical snobs can stop whinging about the tune, just because its simple enough that anyone can sing it and not just the posh choirs - and if you don't like "When we've been there ten thousand years" verse (which was tacked on from soemwhere else, probably a highly variant version of Jerusalem, my happy home) then sing the real last verses, they are in the book. Or they ought to be)
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We have a committee of musicians and ministers plus people in the pew that choose hymns (6 so not a huge group). When i did it myself i became almost hated!
If people keep choosing hymns with dodgy theology, then one has to ask whether this church is right for me.
This church is used to having a paid professional musician with training in church music for the formal service, and for the past 7 years a volunteer who is a music professional for the "informal" service. Other than the snipping and complaints - music leaders put up with a lot of that in churches! - there's been just occasional coordination with clergy who are glad to have an area they don't have to think about other than tell music director general instructions like "baptism next week" or "no Christmas songs until Christmas."
I think having a music committee choose songs/styles, and a music director who has no training in leading music in church (and no formal music training at all) are both new.
If what they know about music is what I know about paintings, comments about music styles or lyrical content seem as boring and irrelevant as I would regard an explanation of why a particular painting does or does not "fit" my living room. Hey, I like it or I don't, period. Add "we hope it will attract the people we want," and they have compelling reason to turn away from anyone suggesting "something needs to change."
Plus, to say "the current music is not right for this church" sounds like "we should terminate all music" because this is the only person they know (or know and trust?) willing to lead the "informal" music. (Not the choir director's job.)
So there are two global issues, and I'm interested in the global not just one specific church - 1) when as leader of a part of the program you are occasionally asked to do or say something you think deeply wrong, and 2) when your music leader moves away and no one volunteers to replace him.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Can't theologically orthodox Christians have scruples about being asked to sing wishy-washy liberal stuff they don't agree with?
Which "wishy-washy liberal" hymns so offend the self-proclaimed theologically orthodox?
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I suppose all Christians should think about this potential problem before they join choirs or worship bands, especially if their churches are more evangelical than they are.
Why only "more evangelical"?
Can't theologically orthodox Christians have scruples about being asked to sing wishy-washy liberal stuff they don't agree with?
I'm sure they can, but it seems to be a less frequent problem. Evangelicals are less likely to attend moderate/liberal churches than more moderate Christians are to attend evangelical churches. In fairly moderate churches the music tends to be on the traditional side anyway, so singing the theology is less likely to be a problem for an evangelical, although the style of the music might be.
Anyway, what would you class as 'wishy-washy liberal stuff' that might offend an evangelical Christian? I'd be fascinated to hear about that.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
A Christian sign language interpreter (and yes they were a volunteer) once told me that they have similar issues. How to sign with meaning hymns that they profoundly disagree with.
The answer was, that they had had to realise that they were merely the conduit to others worship, and it was irrelevant what they thought about individual hymns/songs.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
A Christian sign language interpreter (and yes they were a volunteer) once told me that they have similar issues. How to sign with meaning hymns that they profoundly disagree with.
The answer was, that they had had to realise that they were merely the conduit to others worship, and it was irrelevant what they thought about individual hymns/songs.
That's an interesting I hadn't thought about sign language or other interpreters. I suppose a wedding or funeral singer can be asked to sing something peculiar. I guess to me there's a lesser issue if I'm a hired voice, more situationally obvious it's not me proclaiming the ideas expressed but the bride or survivors.
I have a friend who is an actress and there are parts she turns down because she is also a school teacher. Although *she* knows it's the character swearing or stripping naked on stage, her kids would see it as *her* saying or doing those things.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anyway, what would you class as 'wishy-washy liberal stuff' that might offend an evangelical Christian? I'd be fascinated to hear about that.
You're asking ken, so I suggest the list would start with "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind".
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
If there’s something in a service that I disagree with on theological grounds, then I simply don’t say it. Same with things that I dislike on the grounds that they’re not my taste. I don’t make a big thing about it as in church life there has to be a degree of give and take.
From what you’ve said, it sounds like they want to add some new songs to the list and are singing them regularly to ensure the congregation learns them thoroughly. Most churches I’ve gone to do this. It’s no biggie.
In the same way, it’s not worth making a big thing about the songs. If you don’t like some of the worship leaders song choices, then tell him that and let him decide how to deal with it. Leading the worship is his responsibility not yours.
My next comment kind of dove-tails with TCG. You are part of the worship group, but you are not the worship leader. How the group runs, whether or not there are enough musicians, what songs are sung are for the worship leader to work out. Not you. The only thing you have to decide is whether you’re willing to accept the worship leader’s choices.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
I guess to me there's a lesser issue if I'm a hired voice, more situationally obvious it's not me proclaiming the ideas expressed but the bride or survivors.
If you can accept that when you're leading the music on behalf of the bride or survivors, I don't see why it can't also apply to instances when you're leading the music on behalf of a normal Sunday congregation.
I detest many of the children's songs we play at my church (especially some of the dance moves!), but if I'm up on stage with my guitar I'll put just as much enthusiasm into them as I do my favourite songs. And if we're using the CD for the kids song on a particular morning when I'm on stage then I'll join in with the dances as if it's what I was born to do, because as part of the worship team my job is to help the rest of the congregation to worship, which at that point means showing the kids the dance moves.
For me, the first, second and third rules of being a worship leader (of any stripe) should be "It's Not About You". Once you're on that stage/behind that mike/in those choir stalls/in that organ loft it's about setting aside your own preferences and putting in the effort to make the congregation's worship experience the best it can be. It's definitely not about insisting on everything being done according to your preferences regardless of how anyone else in the congregation feels.
Once more with feeling: It's Not About You.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Uncle Pete
Loyaute me lie
# 10422
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Posted
Thank you Marvin.
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Even more so than I was before
Posts: 20466 | From: No longer where I was | Registered: Sep 2005
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
So there are two global issues, and I'm interested in the global not just one specific church - 1) when as leader of a part of the program you are occasionally asked to do or say something you think deeply wrong, and 2) when your music leader moves away and no one volunteers to replace him.
One: How are you defining “deeply wrong”?! Being asked to use your gifts to serve the church in ways you’d really rather not isn’t "deeply wrong". It’s part and parcel of being church. (Which may explain how I got lumbered with organising the harvest lunch). Marvin’s comments are key here – if you can’t or won’t do that in the best way you can, then start asking yourself awkward questions. Particularly if it seems to be a recurring theme. If you’re being asked to do something illegal or immoral, then it’s obvious – a hearty “Bog off!” and a clean pair of heels!
Two: Then you do without and pray for the resources to arrive. Our church is tiny, we have a pianist when she’s able to come as she’s a self employed musician. When she can’t come, we have CDs. You make the best of what you have.
You’re making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Darllenwr
Shipmate
# 14520
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Posted
Marvin:
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
I'm going to have to do some serious thinking.
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If I've told you once, I've told you a million times: I do not exaggerate!
Posts: 1101 | From: The catbox | Registered: Jan 2009
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
If the people leading prayers, music, giving a sermon or any other expressions should be viewed as not necessarily believing what is coming out of their mouths - that's a whole different understanding of what "church" is than I have ever imagined.
Sounds like we are play-acting "worship"!
I've long known I don't know what formal church is about. Now I really don't know. Truth is irrelevant?
I'll worry about it next week. I need a break from such headspinning ideas.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It is at least partly about being a collective, rather than an individual. The congregation acts and worships as a unit - given your understanding of faith will always be unique to you and different in some way to even your identical twin, that means worship as a unit must involve some tolerance of difference. Churches have historically tried to define how much you have to have in common to share worship - this is the purpose of a creed.
If you can define your creed, and your church's collective creed - then you can work out which differences you think are worth battling over.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Belle, you are over simplyfying things and not not critically looking at the different parts of a service
For example there is a difference between the communal parts of the service which are for saying/singing by the whole congregation and the sermon.
For the communal parts it would be impossible for everybody to believe exactly the same thing, at the same time, but even so by and large we all say them. Or the leader will say them on behalf of the whole congregation, even if it is not what they exactly believe.
The leaders role is to provide worship for everybody not just themselves and their particualar views. These parts of the service are much more likely to be structured and to written by people who are not saying them.
Sermons however, are the thoughts of an individual, who is unlikely to say anything s/he doesn’t believe, but even then what they preach should fit with the accepted doctrine of the church. But every member of the congregation listening to the sermon won’t necessarily believe the same things in the same way as the preacher does.
It is about knowing your role and place in worship so it is not a free for all. If we were all to only say the parts we exactly believed in then there would need to be a church for each individual, and we would never use any hymns.....
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If the people leading prayers, music, giving a sermon or any other expressions should be viewed as not necessarily believing what is coming out of their mouths - that's a whole different understanding of what "church" is than I have ever imagined.
My experience may be colored by hanging around filthy liberal college towns, but many Episcopal church choirs I have known have been pretty well packed with agnostics who enjoy good music. I would be a bit surprised to meet a choir who *did* all believe what was coming out of their mouths.
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Tubbs
Miss Congeniality
# 440
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Belle, you are over simplyfying things and not not critically looking at the different parts of a service
For example there is a difference between the communal parts of the service which are for saying/singing by the whole congregation and the sermon.
For the communal parts it would be impossible for everybody to believe exactly the same thing, at the same time, but even so by and large we all say them. Or the leader will say them on behalf of the whole congregation, even if it is not what they exactly believe.
The leaders role is to provide worship for everybody not just themselves and their particualar views. These parts of the service are much more likely to be structured and to written by people who are not saying them.
Sermons however, are the thoughts of an individual, who is unlikely to say anything s/he doesn’t believe, but even then what they preach should fit with the accepted doctrine of the church. But every member of the congregation listening to the sermon won’t necessarily believe the same things in the same way as the preacher does.
It is about knowing your role and place in worship so it is not a free for all. If we were all to only say the parts we exactly believed in then there would need to be a church for each individual, and we would never use any hymns.....
This. The collective parts of the service – hymns, liturgy, creed – are designed to emphasise the common ground that exists within the congregation. Although everyone says those bits together, they’ll interpret them as an individual. And each person will interpret them differently. And that’s fine. Anyone who’s been to a home group will know there are multiple opinions about the meaning of a Bible passage.
The bits done by an individual, like the sermon, are more likely to reflect their personal views. But that has to be held in tension with the need to reflect that there is more than one interpretation, the different teachings of the church, the need to challenge the congregation so they grow spiritually etc. A sermon isn’t the preacher’s personal soap box.
But, ideally, after God, the focus is on serving the congregation. Or as Marvin said, “It’s not about YOU, it’s about THEM”. If you don’t want to sing those songs, then say so. But accept that means you may not be able to be part of that group. Although, tbh, given everything you’ve ever posted about your tastes in church music does make me wonder why you thought that a contemporary worship band would be a good fit for you.
Tubbs
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"It's better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than open it up and remove all doubt" - Dennis Thatcher. My blog. Decide for yourself which I am
Posts: 12701 | From: Someplace strange | Registered: Jun 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
If the people leading prayers, music, giving a sermon or any other expressions should be viewed as not necessarily believing what is coming out of their mouths - that's a whole different understanding of what "church" is than I have ever imagined.
Perhaps it is, but I have no insight into your understanding of "church". I can only comment on mine.
And the way I see it anyone leading prayers, singing songs/hymns, reading from the Bible and even arguably preaching the sermon isn't up there as themselves. They are up there as a representative of the congregation, as a focal point for the collective worship. They are not giving a lecture/concert that expounds on their belief to an audience, they are taking the worship the congregation wishes to offer that day and acting to facilitate it for them. Other than where it concerns technical ability it doesn't even matter who the leader is - because it's not about them.
If I was a church singer rather than just guitarist, I would sing whichever songs/hymns the congregation had decided upon for that particular service. Not because I agree with every single word, but because that's what the congregation wants me to do. For me, in this context, that's what servant leadership is all about.
To draw a somewhat clumsy parallell, it's a bit like social care services for less able people. The carer is there to help the person do the things they want to do. The carer is not there to only help the person to do the things the carer agrees with and would freely choose to do themselves. So it is with church musicians - we are there to help the congregation sing the songs/hymns they want to sing, not to only help them sing the songs/hymns we agree with and would freely choose to sing were we in the pews.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Reminds me of a scene in My Left Foot:
[Christy's nurse won't light his cigarette because it's bad for his health]
Christy Brown: I didn't ask for a fucking psychological lecture. I only asked for a fucking light.
I have to agree with Marvin on this. Everyone has nuances of faith. Maybe some people do believe Jesus is their boyfriend and would like to hear that in song. Some people would rather sing Amazing Grace and cherish the line "that saved a wretch like me". There are people who would like to hear or sing the Stabat Mater; others would think that too foreign and Marion. What to do? If singing music of the wrong theology distresses you, perhaps helping lead worship music isn't your thing.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
I'll agree that you're there to serve the congregation and the church as a whole.
And as Marvin says, you do what you have to. Personally I hate action songs, but for my sins, I ran the pram service for three years as there was no-one else to do it, and I led action songs, lots of them, every week, with enthusiasm and a smile on my face (and no ability to sing). I did edit out a few of the songs on the list and introduced some others, partly to give links to church services like the harvest or Christingle service that I knew quite a few of the children would be attending and a familiar hymn would help.
I refused to lead action songs into the main services as I wasn't on that leadership team and there were other people who really do like action songs, but I was leading different things for adults (weekday morning and occasional Sunday evening prayer, labyrinth, prayer walks, all with no singing or actions whatsoever).
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Belle, I think you are mixing up corporate and private worship, and personal beliefs and corporate Christian doctrine.
If you are responsible for leading worship, then as long as something is a true doctrine of the church, it matters not if it is not a doctrine you like it or don’t like.
Yes you can (and should) argue, if it is heresy, but otherwise if you can’t cope with things you don’t agree with then don’t lead.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
If you are responsible for leading worship, then as long as something is a true doctrine of the church, it matters not if it is not a doctrine you like it or don’t like.
Which is why I'm fine saying a creed which says we believe when I'd hesitate to say I believe.
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Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anyway, what would you class as 'wishy-washy liberal stuff' that might offend an evangelical Christian? I'd be fascinated to hear about that.
You're asking ken, so I suggest the list would start with "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind".
I was interested to see that the Seventh Day Adventist hymnbook includes this hymn. I wonder if it's found its way into any Pentecostal hymnbooks.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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iamchristianhearmeroar
Shipmate
# 15483
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Why only "more evangelical"?
Ken's absolutely right, of course. There could easily be situations where someone is asked to sing something more *catholic* than they were comfortable with.
One Sunday a few weeks ago I filled in playing the organ for our director of music at church as her husband was very ill. Hymns are appointed in advance for the service, but frequently extra music, either hymns or organ/piano only, is needed during distribution of Communion. I decided, as organist ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif) , I would play "Sweet Sacrament Divine" at the end of Communion - it's in our hymn book, but I've never heard it used in our church in the couple of years we've been attending.
I told the choir I'd be playing it, and if they wanted to join in they were welcome to, but if they didn't want to, or didn't agree with the theology, that was fine and I would play it quietly on the organ only. They sang it gutsily, even those I know who do not believe in transubstantiation. So, were they being "professional" or just not thinking about the words?
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My blog: http://alastairnewman.wordpress.com/
Posts: 642 | From: London, UK | Registered: Feb 2010
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
Marvin: Methinks you have got it wrong when you insist that the WL is only representing the congregation and you add "doing what the congregation wishes to do".
Wrong because I bet my last shirt on the fact that nobody asked the congregation in advance of the service what they wished. Somebody "up there" decided on the music etc. and to that extent the content of worship is being imposed.
And, for many, its not a case of agreeing or not with preferences when deciding to what extent to sing out or shut up. Its a question of whether the words are true or not. Example from previous threads "In Christ alone".
Posts: 1914 | From: from the abyss of misunderstanding | Registered: Mar 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Why only "more evangelical"?
Ken's absolutely right, of course. There could easily be situations where someone is asked to sing something more *catholic* than they were comfortable with.
In the CofE, yes. But you must all be used to that by now.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Why only "more evangelical"?
Ken's absolutely right, of course. There could easily be situations where someone is asked to sing something more *catholic* than they were comfortable with.
One Sunday a few weeks ago I filled in playing the organ for our director of music at church as her husband was very ill. Hymns are appointed in advance for the service, but frequently extra music, either hymns or organ/piano only, is needed during distribution of Communion. I decided, as organist , I would play "Sweet Sacrament Divine" at the end of Communion - it's in our hymn book, but I've never heard it used in our church in the couple of years we've been attending.
I told the choir I'd be playing it, and if they wanted to join in they were welcome to, but if they didn't want to, or didn't agree with the theology, that was fine and I would play it quietly on the organ only. They sang it gutsily, even those I know who do not believe in transubstantiation. So, were they being "professional" or just not thinking about the words?
One of my favourite hymns, though i am not sure than it is about transubstantiation, though the words quote:
hid in thine earthly home;
lo! round thy lowly shrine,
might suggest it.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
If you are responsible for leading worship, then as long as something is a true doctrine of the church, it matters not if it is not a doctrine you like it or don’t like.
Which is why I'm fine saying a creed which says we believe when I'd hesitate to say I believe.
Which is exactly why the form used in services (yes, even in Greek) has traditionally been the singular. The reversion to the plural form from the conciliar decrees is to my mind unfortunate.
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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)
Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012
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Graven Image
Shipmate
# 8755
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Posted
I translate in my head.
Example Say, " The Virgin Mary"
Think, "The name we give to the mother of Jesus."
Meaning, I think Mary was a young women and I do not believe in the Virgin Birth.
Posts: 2641 | From: Third planet from the sun. USA | Registered: Nov 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Why only "more evangelical"?
Ken's absolutely right, of course. There could easily be situations where someone is asked to sing something more *catholic* than they were comfortable with.
In the CofE, yes. But you must all be used to that by now.
You would be surprised.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I've been holding off putting my tuppence-worth on to this thread, but reading what others have said, a couple of thoughts have occurred to me:
If you're being asked to sing words that are sufficiently anathema to what you believe (as opposed to just ones you're not wild about*), are you sure you're in the right church (or the right branch of it)?
I'm inclined to agree with Pererin about singular/plural in parts of the service which are said by all (such as the Creed). On the rare occasions when we use the modern, plural version (most of our services are BCP), I say "I believe", as I don't think it's my place to profess the faith of anyone else.
* There's an anthem that comes up a few times a year, the words of which one of my choir colleagues dislikes, but she sings it anyway because she's in the choir. I don't think it's because she thinks it's bad theology, just not very good imagery.
[ 11. October 2013, 01:49: Message edited by: piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anyway, what would you class as 'wishy-washy liberal stuff' that might offend an evangelical Christian? I'd be fascinated to hear about that.
You're asking ken, so I suggest the list would start with "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind".
I was interested to see that the Seventh Day Adventist hymnbook includes this hymn. I wonder if it's found its way into any Pentecostal hymnbooks.
I don't know, but it's in "Songs of Fellowship".
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
We had Jerusalem at a funeral this week and as verger I sang out despite my reservations about this hymn. Similarly One more step (which I detested by the time I left primary school) at weddings*. Otoh at my old parish I found myself unable to sing Blessed Assurance while in congregation so I didn't. It just wasn't where I was that day. Don't know what I would have done were I in choir when faced with a hymn I couldn't sing in that way.
Carys
*I do wonder who the wedding couples think the you is in that song. Apart from 'old/young' verse could be singing to each other...
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
Posts: 6896 | From: Bryste mwy na thebyg | Registered: May 2001
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
I know a clergyman who refused to have Jerusalem sung because he said that the answer to
quote:
And did those feet in ancient times
Tread upon England's mountains green?
was "No".
Nothing anyone said could persuade him that the whole thing was in the poet's imagination.
For myself, I love it, and I'm not even English. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
For myself, I love it, and I'm not even English.
Me too.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Carys:
...Similarly One more step (which I detested by the time I left primary school) at weddings*. ...
Carys
*I do wonder who the wedding couples think the you is in that song. Apart from 'old/young' verse could be singing to each other...
I suspect that's why they want to sing it. More evidence of the way that in our society, when you don't give people a reasonable grounding in at least 'County Council Christianity' (which they may accept or reject, but at least they have) at school, sentimental crap just floods in.
Quite honestly, stalwart supporter of the parochial obligation and of the occasional offices as I am, I sometimes wish that people like that would just take their sickly-sweet primary school hums and their twee readings about rabbits and their flute arrangements of Pachalbel and just fuck off to some garden somewhere where they can gaze lovingly into each others eyes and recite their poxy home-made vows about 'always being there for you', and pretend that marriage is all about being starry eyed and happy forever, and leave the church to people who want to get on with working out how to grapple with the mixture of joys and crap and just keeping-buggering-on that is life*.
So there.
* Though of course some of the people who do all this bunny-wunnykins hello clouds hello sky stuff are actually church people, aren't they? Jeeez ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
[ 21. October 2013, 08:15: Message edited by: Albertus ]
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Albertus
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
As for Jerusalem, plain fact is it is NOT a hymn: it is four verses written as an introduction to an epic poem about John Milton. With music by Parry, it is most accurately described as a national song which expresses the hope that, since Jesus did not come to England to establish a new heaven then it is up to Blake and friends to establish the new Sion in blighty.
Along with O Valiant hearts, Jerusalem is not allowed at our shack unless its (a) after the blessing, and (b) something like a memorial service for a member of the Women's Institute.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Jerusalem is one of the School songs. It did then, and still does, bring a catch in my throat and sometimes a tear to my eye. It's a powerful expression of how we have degraded our inheritance and need to remedy the result of those things which we ought not to have done.
I don't say the Filioque. I understand that there are strong arguments for and against it, but there is precious little of those arguments which I can follow. What I do understand is that the addition of the clause to the Nicene Creed has not been approved by an Ecumenical Council of the same authority as that at Nicea. That it does not form part of the Creed as said in the Eastern Rite churches in communion with Rome suggests that it is not a matter of great importance. So I don't say it. Madame does.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I led a small worship service on Friday, and one of the songs I chose was 'Pass me not, O gentle Saviour'. Realising that some folk might take exception to it, I suggested that if it didn't apply to them and their situation, they could sing it on behalf of someone else. We then said our prayers of intercession.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Alan Cresswell:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anyway, what would you class as 'wishy-washy liberal stuff' that might offend an evangelical Christian? I'd be fascinated to hear about that.
You're asking ken, so I suggest the list would start with "Dear Lord and Father of Mankind".
I was interested to see that the Seventh Day Adventist hymnbook includes this hymn. I wonder if it's found its way into any Pentecostal hymnbooks.
I don't know, but it's in "Songs of Fellowship".
Why would it offend?? (other than the mankind bit)
Even reached for my hymnbook to read it through to see if I was not recalling something in later verses, and I can't see anything offensive to evangelical thinking.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
... Why would it offend?? (other than the mankind bit) ...
[slight rant]
Some of us don't find the "mankind" bit offensive - not nearly as offensive as messing about with beautiful poetry.
[/slight rant OFF]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
One of the recent alterations that drives me mad is in "Lead us heavenly Father, lead us" where they have altered "Lone and dreary, faint and weary" to "Self-denying, death-defying" .
Quite apart from anything else, all the "Death-defying" makes me think of is the chap at the old-fashioned travelling fair who rode his motorcycle around the "Wall of Death".
I suspect its another improvement we can trace back to K***n M****w. ![[Mad]](angryfire.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
Indeed. And one which actually distances us from the Christ of the hymn.
Though perhaps I am starting to hear the clip-clop of ghostly hooves...
[ 21. October 2013, 20:30: Message edited by: Albertus ]
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
This thread makes me give thanks that I am not in any way musical.
So, a perspective from someone who struggles to sing ANYTHING in public worship.
Do I care whether the worship leader is having a good day or a bad day? Only if the WL lets it affect the rest of the team or congregation. Then I begin to wish they would just walk out and leave us to get on with what we want to do: worship.
And yes, I have observed worship leaders screaming at their crew before a service. If that is what your job is doing to you, get out.
Do I care about dodgy song choices? No, because as an honest, thoughtful worshiper I can work around it. I struggle the most in worship when every single hymn played is dirge like. Not much joy for a non-singer who can't hold a note when every note is excruciatingly stretched out.
Do I care whether the music team were highly gifted or professional, moderately competent, satisfyingly organized or in complete sync? No. I care most whether there is joy in their hearts, and willingness in their service. I care about their experience of teamwork with each other, and whether they lead in such a fashion that there is some chance we can all get across the finish line of the last verse together - because it's about all of us, and not about them.
I always have to trust God to take the sound that emanates from me and make it into something pleasing to the divine ear, so I truly don't care about the "excellence" factor.
I have an intrinsic mistrust of musical exhibitions in a worship service. It makes me wonder who I am supposed to be admiring.
I appreciate how hard it is to bring everyone with you when you have to lead a motley crew of volunteers. But I am very very grateful to those who attempt to do this every week. I would seriously hate to be a WL, but I am guessing that if you are called by your community to do this then you work through the mountain of difficulties with grace and gusto.
And less music in a church service would not bother me one bit.
For me it really isn't about the music at all. Never has been, and never will be.
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
Posts: 7080 | From: Canberra Australia | Registered: Oct 2005
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Avila
Shipmate
# 15541
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by piglet:
quote:
Originally posted by Avila:
... Why would it offend?? (other than the mankind bit) ...
[slight rant]
Some of us don't find the "mankind" bit offensive - not nearly as offensive as messing about with beautiful poetry.
[/slight rant OFF]
Neither do I - but I know some who would so trying to avoid that tangent by acknowledging it and get to why people thought the hymn an issue in other ways.
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http://aweebleswonderings.blogspot.com/
Posts: 1305 | From: west midlands | Registered: Mar 2010
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Piglet
Islander
# 11803
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Posted
Quite right, Avila - that would probably be a Whole Nother Thread™ - possibly even a Whole Nother Board ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
eta: I've just had a look at the words and I don't see anything that could cause offence if you use a wee bit of imagination.
[ 22. October 2013, 15:50: Message edited by: piglet ]
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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music
Posts: 20272 | From: Fredericton, NB, on a rather larger piece of rock | Registered: Sep 2006
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Carys
Ship's Celticist
# 78
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
One of the recent alterations that drives me mad is in "Lead us heavenly Father, lead us" where they have altered "Lone and dreary, faint and weary" to "Self-denying, death-defying" .
Quite apart from anything else, all the "Death-defying" makes me think of is the chap at the old-fashioned travelling fair who rode his motorcycle around the "Wall of Death".
I suspect its another improvement we can trace back to K***n M****w.
Oddly not - it's in the NEH which surprises me but I think predates KM as it's mid 80s. I'm with you on death-defying
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O Lord, you have searched me and know me
You know when I sit and when I rise
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