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Source: (consider it) Thread: When I'm Archbishop of Canterbury...
The Phantom Flan Flinger
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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If I were ABC, I would make it compulsory for all clergy - bishops or otherwise - to revert to the indisputable practice of the earliest days of the church when sandals were the most any of the Apostles wore on their feet. No need for such fripperies as socks.

Surely sock with sandals are compulsory for the English?

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http://www.faith-hope-and-confusion.com/

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Gee D
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quote:
Originally posted by roybart:
Gee D, I don't know about the Middle East, but the Romans definitely wore socks in winter, as did the Greeks.

That's why I referred to the very earliest days of the church, when I had not spread much beyond Palestine.

I had not thought of the curious English habit of socks with sandals, and really would rather not think of it now. However, it seems to be stuck in my head....

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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'see, this is why I don't wear sandals.

With socks, they look silly and someone might assume I'm a vicar on holiday.

Without them, they hurt your feet.

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Might as well ask the bloody cat.

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jedijudy

Organist of the Jedi Temple
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quote:
Originally posted by rugasaw:
I give you the answer, Bishop Socks.

Ooooh! Nice! [Yipee]

Pata, can your hubby go clothes shopping with me? [Smile]

[ETA shame on me for continuing the tangent. [Big Grin] ]

[ 01. August 2013, 11:50: Message edited by: jedijudy ]

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Jasmine, little cat with a big heart.

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Parishioners - all ten thousand of them?

Or do you mean churchgoers?

Yes, all ten thousand.

I see no reason why Vicars should be absolved from a duty of care towards those who choose to stay in bed on a Sunday morning. [Smile]

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
I would make pastoral care of their parishioners compulsory for all priests. [Smile]

Some priests have no talent for pastoral care. If they attempt it they may do more harm than good.

Moo

That would be funny if it were not true.

[Frown]

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cattyish

Wuss in Boots
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<tangent> I have made myself insoles for my walking sandals which make them about 30% more comfortable and 50% less smelly. They are made of cut out foot shapes from a pair of fairly traded trousers which were full of holes. /<tangent>

When I'm Archbishop of Canterbury, I will move Canterbury to Scotland. Actually, why doesn't the ABC move the centre around to represent lots of areas? It could be a bit like hosting the Olympics. Sort of.

Cattyish, sewing machine addict.

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...to know even one life has breathed easier because you have lived, this is to have succeeded.
Ralph Waldo Emerson

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North East Quine

Curious beastie
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Cattyish, there is a place called Canterbury near Cornhill in Banffshire. It's just two farms now I think, but it must have had a population of over 30 back in the day. Relatives of mine lived there a century ago, and we used to pass the sign to it when visiting an aunt. I will not confess how old I was before the penny dropped that the Archbishop didn't live there, and that there was in fact another, larger, Canterbury in Kent.
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Sir Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:


Without them, they hurt your feet.

When I was about 15 I walked from Pasadena to Hollywood in sandals with tire-tread soles. I did not wear socks. It took me about three hours. I hitchhiked back.

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
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Compulsory bells for an hour on Sunday morning, plus free ale on production of a Bellringers' Union card (to be honoured at each and every pub in the land).

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Forward the New Republic

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Isaac David

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...Josephine will be the Orthodox Pope, the Vatican will have relocated to Arkansas and gluten-free time travel will be available from Waitrose.

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Isaac the Idiot

Forget philosophy. Read Borges.

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BroJames
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Parishioners - all ten thousand of them?

Or do you mean churchgoers?

Yes, all ten thousand.

I see no reason why Vicars should be absolved from a duty of care towards those who choose to stay in bed on a Sunday morning. [Smile]

Indeed is it too much to ask that each has 45 minutes of her or his time every once in a while. If she/he works 10 hours a day, 6 days a week for 48 weeks in the year (and does nothing but visit parishioners), then each person will get time with the vicar a little bit less than once every two and a half years. I don't see what's wrong with that [Two face]
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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Parishioners - all ten thousand of them?

Or do you mean churchgoers?

Yes, all ten thousand.

I see no reason why Vicars should be absolved from a duty of care towards those who choose to stay in bed on a Sunday morning. [Smile]

Indeed is it too much to ask that each has 45 minutes of her or his time every once in a while. If she/he works 10 hours a day, 6 days a week for 48 weeks in the year (and does nothing but visit parishioners), then each person will get time with the vicar a little bit less than once every two and a half years. I don't see what's wrong with that [Two face]
Look again. I specified pastoral care.

I did not specify 45 minutes each; you made that bit up.

A priest who doesn't give a damn about anyone but him/herself is not worth having. Therefore, when I am ABC, I will make said giving a damn mandatory.

[ 02. August 2013, 14:31: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]

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BroJames
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Yes. You are right. I did make up the 45 minutes. I'm sorry about that. It was a knee-jerk reaction equating pastoral care with visiting. [Hot and Hormonal]

If I was ABC I would require all clergy to take a three month sabbatical (except for occasional offices) all at the same time [Big Grin]

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Yes. You are right. I did make up the 45 minutes. I'm sorry about that. It was a knee-jerk reaction equating pastoral care with visiting. [Hot and Hormonal]

No problem. Easily done. [Smile]

I was thrown out of my church because the Vicar objected to giving a damn about me. Highly unpleasant.

quote:


If I was ABC I would require all clergy to take a three month sabbatical (except for occasional offices) all at the same time [Big Grin]

Where would you expect them all to go?

Butlins, perhaps?

[ 02. August 2013, 15:07: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by BroJames:
Yes. You are right. I did make up the 45 minutes. I'm sorry about that.

Tony Blair - is that you?

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
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When I am ABC I shall decree that at random point during the processional hymn, the organist shall stop playing at which point the clergy, servers and choir will have to run to find a seat. The last person to get a seat is "out". This shall be repeated at the Gradual, Offertory and Recessional hymns.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Adeodatus
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quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Parishioners - all ten thousand of them?

Or do you mean churchgoers?

Yes, all ten thousand.

I see no reason why Vicars should be absolved from a duty of care towards those who choose to stay in bed on a Sunday morning. [Smile]

There's only so many times you can hear the words, "Get the **** off my doorstep, you ****ing ****, or I'll set the ****ing dog on you," before it begins to exert a certain amount of wear and tear on the soul.

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"What is broken, repair with gold."

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Anglo Catholic Relict
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quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
There's only so many times you can hear the words, "Get the **** off my doorstep, you ****ing ****, or I'll set the ****ing dog on you," before it begins to exert a certain amount of wear and tear on the soul.

I see you have met Father. [Smile]
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womanspeak
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When I'm ABC I'd order annual 360 evaluations of clergy by their parishes to be discussed confidentially with their Archdeacon.

An increase in self-knowledge and insight could only help clergy support their parishes in outreach and pastoral care provision.

I would not require them to complete hours of visits - but rather build teams of lay people and home groups to support each other in pastoral care. Similarly their role would be to enable the ministry of the laity in evangelism and outreach.

I too have been thrown out of my parish - mine for a passion for children, youth and family ministry. This challenged the vicar's focus on traditionalism and sacramentalism to the exclusion of the young and enquirers into the faith.

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from the bush

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by womanspeak:
When I'm ABC I'd order annual 360 evaluations of clergy by their parishes to be discussed confidentially with their Archdeacon.

That already happens.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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BroJames
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Not everywhere it doesn't. The full 360º evaluation and meeting with the Archdeacon happens only once every three years in this diocese, with lighter touch 'reviews' in the intervening years.
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leo
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I stand corrected - I did wonder after posting.

However, Readers have do an annual appraisal.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Robert Armin

All licens'd fool
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I've been a priest for 25 years and never had an evaluation by anyone. Not sure if that's a good thing or not.

On a lighter note, if I were ABC I'd have indoor fireworks at every Eucharist. Loads of the, especially during the Eucharistic Prayer.

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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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I gather you've met Fr Paul, the guy who used to be the priest at the Syro-Malabar church we go to occasionally - fireworks mad! When we weren't there we could easily hear them from here, a couple of kms away.

I used to have annual appraisals and found them very helpful, then I got a new boss and they started to be a real drag - it very much depends on the appraiser.

Another thing I'd do as ABC is issue an instruction that all services must include a reasonable [minimum 5 mins] period of silent prayer and meditation.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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If I were ABC, silent prayer and meditation would also include the right to sleep during sermons.

Oh, wait...

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Even more so than I was before

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Touchstone
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I would fix Easter as the second Sunday in April. No more celebrating Shrove Tuesday before the last mince pie has been eaten.

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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!

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Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
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quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I would fix Easter as the second Sunday in April. No more celebrating Shrove Tuesday before the last mince pie has been eaten.

And those of us who have to plan and carry out events for advent and lent would be forever in your debt. [Overused]

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

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Welease Woderwick

Sister Incubus Nightmare
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When I am ABC I shall replace all Liturgical Interpretive Dance with this.

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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details

What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?

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Drifting Star

Drifting against the wind
# 12799

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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
When I am ABC I shall replace all Liturgical Interpretive Dance with this.

[Eek!] That really should be the new rickroll.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

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Gwalchmai
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Expunge "And also with you" from every service in the Church of England and join our Catholic brethren in responding "And with your spirit".
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Piglet
Islander
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Expunge "And also with you" from every service ...

Absolutely.

quote:

... and join our Catholic brethren in responding "And with your spirit".

Nonononono ... "And with THY spirit". [Big Grin]

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I may not be on an island any more, but I'm still an islander.
alto n a soprano who can read music

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
# 10422

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quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
When I am ABC I shall replace all Liturgical Interpretive Dance with this.

It would make more sense.

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Even more so than I was before

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Arabella Purity Winterbottom

Trumpeting hope
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quote:
Originally posted by PeteC:
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
When I am ABC I shall replace all Liturgical Interpretive Dance with this.

It would make more sense.
Except now I need new glasses. Ouch.

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Hell is full of the talented and Heaven is full of the energetic. St Jane Frances de Chantal

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pererin
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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Expunge "And also with you" from every service in the Church of England and join our Catholic brethren in responding "And with your spirit".

Hear, hear. Also, restore the Lord God of Hosts to the Sanctus (or at the very least ensure a comma and a line break is set after the third "Holy" to at least try and avoid the dumty-dumty-dumty-dum dumty-dumty-dum infantile rhyme effect). And sort out the Gloria too, roughly along the lines the RCs have done, but realizing that "on high" is good idiomatic English, whereas "in the highest" suggests "to the greatest degree". And when we are done, we will sing the Te Deum, which will not begin "you are God".

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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Gwalchmai
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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Expunge "And also with you" from every service in the Church of England and join our Catholic brethren in responding "And with your spirit".

Hear, hear. Also, restore the Lord God of Hosts to the Sanctus (or at the very least ensure a comma and a line break is set after the third "Holy" to at least try and avoid the dumty-dumty-dumty-dum dumty-dumty-dum infantile rhyme effect). And sort out the Gloria too, roughly along the lines the RCs have done, but realizing that "on high" is good idiomatic English, whereas "in the highest" suggests "to the greatest degree". And when we are done, we will sing the Te Deum, which will not begin "you are God".
As ABC I would also bring before an ecclesiastical court all those who drafted the modern langauge services in 1960s and 1970s for crimes against the English language.

As well as the examples quoted, I would ask them to explain just who they thought did not understand "visible and invisible" in the creed, even though these selfsame people would apparently have no problem with "begotten" a few lines later.

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Sioni Sais
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# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I would fix Easter as the second Sunday in April. No more celebrating Shrove Tuesday before the last mince pie has been eaten.

The government has got there already. The Easter Act(1928) only needs to be enacted and your wish will be fulfilled.

In other news I would add "Cursed is he who spells hamster with a P" to the Commination Against Sinners.

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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

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Angloid
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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
And when we are done, we will sing the Te Deum, which will not begin "you are God".

It doesn't now. Not in CW anyway.

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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!

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Uncle Pete

Loyaute me lie
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quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
And when we are done, we will sing the Te Deum, which will not begin "you are God".

It doesn't now. Not in CW anyway.
I certainly hope it is never translated You are God. That would be a sin against the Latin language.

Te, Deum, laudamus We praise you, O God.

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Even more so than I was before

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leo
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# 1458

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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
Expunge "And also with you" from every service in the Church of England and join our Catholic brethren in responding "And with your spirit".

Hear, hear. Also, restore the Lord God of Hosts to the Sanctus
Why? How many people know that it means 'armies'? Who thinks it's communion wafers?

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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Sir Kevin
Ship's Gaffer
# 3492

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As ABC, I would dictate that it's really important for my successors to actually believe in God, as Sir Humphrey told us on television many years ago!

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If you board the wrong train, it is no use running along the corridor in the other direction Dietrich Bonhoeffer
Writing is currently my hobby, not yet my profession.

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pererin
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# 16956

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(I'm inclined to post this reply in Ecclesiantics, but seeing as it's continuing the conversation, I'll leave it to the armies of communion wafers [Biased] to make the call.)

quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
As ABC I would also bring before an ecclesiastical court all those who drafted the modern langauge services in 1960s and 1970s for crimes against the English language.

Nah, some of their stuff is good. Geoffrey Cuming's completely different Agnus Dei alternative is exactly that: an alternative. Likewise "The Lord is here.// His Spirit is with us". It's just that we should call out the less successful bits.

In a similar vein, we should not quite round up and burn at the stake those responsible for later periods of vandalism, such as the geniuses working on the Creed who were worried that "the Lord and Giver of Life" could be misread as making the Holy Spirit the Lord of Life, but were willing to decree that their silly taboo about the word "men" in the phrase "who for us men and for our salvation" must not be misread by anyone anywhere ever.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
Hear, hear. Also, restore the Lord God of Hosts to the Sanctus

Why? How many people know that it means 'armies'?
Anyone who reads the Bible*. Indeed, anyone who attends a service where Psalm 24, 46, 48, 59, 69, 80, 84, 89, or 103 is sung or said. If it's good enough for the Common Worship Psalter, it's good enough for the rest of the book.

* So long as it's not the New International Version, that is. But to be fair that version's approach achieves consistency between παντοκρατωρ in all of the books of the Old Testament except one (where it's the Greek for צבאות) and in the New (where it's been traditionally, if a little misleadingly, rendered Almighty, in harmony with how it's always been translated in the Creeds). So there's a decent case for "Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord God Almighty: heaven and earth are full of your glory".

In any event, "power and might" is a bit of a strange gloss that isn't found in any Bible translation. It also contributes to the unfortunate trochaic tri-/tetrameter reading. But a slightly eccentric translation of a single word is a less serious problem than breaking Sanctus / Dominus Deus Sabaoth into Sanctus Dominus / Deus Sabaoth. I could live with "power and might" so long as the punctuation and line breaks were right.

quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
And when we are done, we will sing the Te Deum, which will not begin "you are God".

It doesn't now. Not in CW anyway.
How strange. The ASB version must have been so widely derided that the editors gave in. I see they've even restored the vocative "O" in that one line, but fail to do it elsewhere. There are some particularly intriguing inconsistencies in the third section of the Te Deum, where the editors have simply cribbed the ASB version, rather than comparing the psalm allusions to the Psalter — compare from the Te Deum:

A) Save your people, Lord, and bless your inheritance.
Govern and uphold them now and always.

B) Day by day we bless you.
We praise your name for ever.

C) Lord, show us your love and mercy,
for we have put our trust in you.

D) In you, Lord, is our hope:
let us never be put to shame.

with:

A) Save your people and bless your inheritance;
shepherd them and carry them for ever. (Ps 28.11)

B) Every day will I bless you
and praise your name for ever and ever. (Ps 145.2)

C) Let your loving-kindness, O Lord, be upon us,
as we have set our hope on you. (Ps 33.22)

D) In you, O Lord, have I taken refuge;
let me never be put to shame; (Ps 31.1ab)

The CW Psalter is far from perfect, but these parallels only serve to highlight the literary flaws of the ASB-based canticles.

The other thing that's obvious is that חסד, a rather key word in the Psalms, is still being translated inconsistently. With my imaginary mitre back on, I would decree that it be consistently rendered "grace" in English, just as Martin Luther would have done. :-)

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Touchstone
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# 3560

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quote:

Originally posted by Sioni Sais:

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Touchstone:
I would fix Easter as the second Sunday in April. No more celebrating Shrove Tuesday before the last mince pie has been eaten.
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The government has got there already. The Easter Act(1928) only needs to be enacted and your wish will be fulfilled.


This seems to have been stuck in committee for a very long time indeed...

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Jez we did hand the next election to the Tories on a plate!

Posts: 163 | From: Somewhere west of Bristol | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gwalchmai
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# 17802

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I would always prefer to use the psalms and canticles (and the Gloria and Creed) from the Book of Common Prayer. There is a beauty and rhythm in the language which is missing from the prosaic modern versions. Worship should not be conducted in the language of a civil service report or a letter from the Department of Work and Pensions!
Posts: 133 | From: England | Registered: Aug 2013  |  IP: Logged
pererin
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# 16956

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quote:
Originally posted by Gwalchmai:
I would always prefer to use the psalms and canticles (and the Gloria and Creed) from the Book of Common Prayer. There is a beauty and rhythm in the language which is missing from the prosaic modern versions. Worship should not be conducted in the language of a civil service report or a letter from the Department of Work and Pensions!

Someone should really edit the public-domain WEB Psalms into slightly nicer English (taking the best readings from a range of modern versions) and then point them for Anglican Chant.

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged



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