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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Off with that person's head!
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
The State of Washington has declared illegal words such as "freshman" and "penmanship" as indicating gender bias.
Come off it! Doesn't the Washington legislature have bigger fish to fry, such as collapsing bridges, maybe?
You can't legislate how native speakers use their native tongue. Or is "native" politically incorrect also?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
It's the laws that are being re-written.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
That's laws for you. Isn't there a place where horses can't shit in the street on a Sunday?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Amorya
Ship's tame galoot
# 2652
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
The State of Washington has declared illegal words such as "freshman" and "penmanship" as indicating gender bias.
I've only heard 'fresher' used at UK universities, rather than 'freshman'. Maybe they could adopt that term?
Posts: 2383 | From: Coventry | Registered: Apr 2002
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rufiki
Ship's 'shroom
# 11165
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Posted
*Checks link*
They're not declaring these words illegal, they're just changing the way the actual laws are written so that they're inclusive. Is this just pragmatism, to make it absolutely clear that the letter of the law applies equally to men and women?
Posts: 1562 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
It's already clear. A "freshman" is a "first year student" regardless of gender. A perfectly good word is being deprecated. No one ever considered using "freshwoman" to denote a first-year co-ed (oops, another gender-heavy word).
Of course, "handwriting" is moot anyway since nobody actually does it anymore. But it never meant the same as "penmanship". "Penmanship" denotes the relative quality of the handwriting, not its existence.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Freshman has been replaced almost universally by first year student in the North American student services profession.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
What's the fuss all about? I think it's good that the USA is finally catching up with the rest of us.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Pearl B4 Swine
Ship's Oyster-Shucker
# 11451
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Posted
When I accepted my current church-musician job, the committee asked me what 'title' I would like, in the Sunday bulletin, etc. I said I thought that "Organist-Choir Mistress" would be okay. They decided on "Director" instead of mistress.
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Oinkster
"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)
Posts: 3622 | From: The Keystone State | Registered: May 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
They decided on "Director" instead of mistress.
Why not "Directress"?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
To most native English speakers, "making words illegal" or "banning words" sounds like making it a crime to use those words. That's ridiculously far from what this law does.
Most universities now use "first-year student," and all the first-year students call themselves "freshmen." That doesn't mean that those students are somehow violating a ban on the word freshman. It means that the university has changed its policies to use a different term, for its own purposes.
So who cares?
Posts: 424 | From: USA | Registered: May 2012
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
If you're complaining about the stylistic inelegance of the vocabulary used to write laws, you have a long and torturous road ahead of you.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 08. July 2013, 20:41: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Because it's not a word?
Sure it is.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
I don't think I'd trust m-w as a source myself, and I said that before I took a random word that applies to both genders, editor, made up a theoretical feminine form, editress, and looked it up. Seriously. As a female editor, I rather suspect I'd have heard that once in my life if it were a word rather than a particularly appalling* combination of letters that is definitely not in common usage. Editress is not a word and neither is directress, IMO.
*For some of us who are extremely nerdy about words. Maybe less so to the rest of you more sane people.
[ 08. July 2013, 21:27: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Editress is not a word.
I think I'd prefer editrix myself. Sounds more, erm, racy, don't you think? ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
What's the fuss all about? I think it's good that the USA is finally catching up with the rest of us.
Oh, we were doing pretty well at inclusive/non-sexist language for a long time. But we backslid. As near as I can tell, that became obvious in early in Dubya's first term. I don't know if there's a connection--maybe Texans and/or Republicans don't like inclusive language?
I'm so sick of hearing "Man" and "mankind" again. And then there's using "Congressmen" for a mixed group. And on, and on. Even in well-respected media. Even NPR and PBS.
So I'm glad whenever I hear inclusiveness coming back. Changing "penmanship" is maybe a bridge too far, but I can live with it.
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Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
I think I'd prefer editrix myself. Sounds more, erm, racy, don't you think?
Isn't there a private board for that sort of thing?
![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Welease Woderwick
Sister Incubus Nightmare
# 10424
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
...I'm so sick of hearing "Man" and "mankind" again. And then there's using "Congressmen" for a mixed group...
Well, erm, Congress can be a pretty loaded term as well.
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I give thanks for unknown blessings already on their way.
Fancy a break in South India?
Accessible Homestay Guesthouse in Central Kerala, contact me for details
What part of Matt. 7:1 don't you understand?
Posts: 48139 | From: 1st on the right, straight on 'til morning | Registered: Sep 2005
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basso
Ship’s Crypt Keeper
# 4228
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Welease Woderwick:
Well, erm, Congress can be a pretty loaded term as well.
"Loaded" is apparently a traditional condition of Congress.
Posts: 4358 | From: Bay Area, Calif | Registered: Mar 2003
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
Changing "penmanship" is maybe a bridge too far.
What will they make of churchmanship, I wonder?
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm so sick of hearing "Man" and "mankind" again. And then there's using "Congressmen" for a mixed group. And on, and on. Even in well-respected media. Even NPR and PBS.
Frankly, I'd rather go the other way. HM The Queen is Duke of Lancaster, and not its Duchess, and Lord of Mann rather than Lady of Mann.
To me, that is a more empowering stance than inventing a new word that means "there might be a woman in this job". Because of course there might be a woman doing a job that used to be traditionally male. "I have this job that has been done by men for the last thousand years, and I have a uterus" is to me a much more powerful statement than "you have to change what you call this job because I'm a woman".
But then I'm widely accepted to be rather odd.
And yes, "male nurse" should be consigned to the dustbin with "woman police constable".
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Golden Key:
I'm so sick of hearing "Man" and "mankind" again. And then there's using "Congressmen" for a mixed group. And on, and on. Even in well-respected media. Even NPR and PBS.
Frankly, I'd rather go the other way. HM The Queen is Duke of Lancaster, and not its Duchess, and Lord of Mann rather than Lady of Mann.
To me, that is a more empowering stance than inventing a new word that means "there might be a woman in this job". Because of course there might be a woman doing a job that used to be traditionally male. "I have this job that has been done by men for the last thousand years, and I have a uterus" is to me a much more powerful statement than "you have to change what you call this job because I'm a woman".
But then I'm widely accepted to be rather odd.
And yes, "male nurse" should be consigned to the dustbin with "woman police constable".
I don’t think that helps the argument at all, it just exposes another layer of hell worthy patriarchy
The reason the queen is a Duke and not a Duchess and a Lord not a Lady is because Dukes and Lords outrank Duchesses and ladies. Male titles take precedence, that’s why the Duke of Edinburgh is not king but a king’s spouse can be a queen. By and large hereditary titles for females, such as duchess, are merely taken from the male relative who is a title holder such as husband or father.
Usually a woman is not allowed to inherit a male title, even if there are female heirs, so if there are no male ones, the title ceases.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
Washington state's laws will no longer use gendered terms that are a part of the way sexism is institutionalized in our culture. And this has your panties in a twist, Amanda? Seriously? You? You've got that cute little gender-bending screenname but you object to serious attempts to treat women as real people?
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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The Rogue
Shipmate
# 2275
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Posted
A midwife is someone (male or female) who is with a wife/woman. When men can give birth we will have midhusbands.
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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?
Posts: 2507 | From: Toton | Registered: Feb 2002
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Pearl B4 Swine:
They decided on "Director" instead of mistress.
Why not "Directress"?
"Directress" sounds too close to "Negress" in my book. I know that's not what you meant at all, I'm just saying it reminds me of negress.
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
you object to serious attempts to treat women as real people?
Actions speak louder than words.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Caissa
Shipmate
# 16710
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Posted
Words often reflect our actions and shape our society.
Posts: 972 | From: Saint John, N.B. | Registered: Oct 2011
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Lothiriel
Shipmate
# 15561
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Editress is not a word.
I think I'd prefer editrix myself. Sounds more, erm, racy, don't you think?
Anybody that calls me an editrix had better duck. Distinguishing between male and female practitioners of the same profession, doing exactly the same kind of work, is just plain demeaning and patronizing, and incredibly dated. Society and language have both moved on, thank God -- get over it.
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If you want to build a ship, don't drum up the men to gather wood, divide the work and give orders. Instead, teach them to yearn for the vast and endless sea. St-Exupery
my blog
Posts: 538 | From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: Mar 2010
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RuthW
liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
you object to serious attempts to treat women as real people?
Actions speak louder than words.
Speaking and writing are actions.
Posts: 24453 | From: La La Land | Registered: Apr 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Someone who makes espresso drinks is a barista. This is a feminine word in Spanish but is used in English whether the person is male or female. I don't see a lot of really manly™ men up in arms about this (granted I don't watch Fox News).
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It may be feminine in Spanish, but it's not feminine in English
As I said, yes.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Barista is Italian and while Italian does have masculine and feminine nouns, masculine nouns ending in ista and cida remain unchanged.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Barista is Italian and while Italian does have masculine and feminine nouns, masculine nouns ending in ista and cida remain unchanged.
Spanish too: policía, dentista, periodista, etc., although they do say la mujer policía for a lady cop.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Bostonman:
Most universities now use "first-year student,"
Most universities in England always did. The students themselves can call new students "Freshers", but that's not quite the same as first-years. The implication is more like "newbie". You sort of grow out of being a fresher sometime in the first few months. Its not a word anyone much uses afte the first fortnight of term. Or at all after Christmas.
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
It may be feminine in Spanish, but it's not feminine in English, which I'd say is relevant.
Well, yes. But there are no gramatically feminine words in English any more. Haven't been for the best part of a thousand years. We have words that describe female and male people (or other creatures) but that's a lexical distinction, not a grammatical one.
If we have a tiny vestige of grammatical gender its the use of pronouns like "she" and "he" to stand for inanimate or unsexed or abstract referents like nation states or ships or computer programs or God. But its pretty marginal. I suspect its really a metaphorical connection of whatever object you are talking about with supposed qualities of one sex or the other, and not grammatical gender at all. And because we don;t have real grmmatical gender we don't "get" it in other languages and tend to read a sexualisation into their usage that maybe isn't really there.
But that's fine. We can do without grammatical gender. We don't have a future tense verb form either but we can talk abotu tomorrow. (We we don't really have a a present tense either, in normal usage - it exists but we don't actually use the simple present tense form of most of our verbs to talk about simple present actions, but about continuous ones, states of affiars, habits, this current sentence being an example ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Why do you leave "he" and "she" used to refer to persons of known gender out of your dismissal of grammatical gender? We do have grammatically masculine and feminine nouns -- any that elicit the gramatically-gender-specific pronoun. Man. Woman. Actress. Waitress. You're redefining grammatical gender beyond all limits in your effort to make a point that seems unnecessary.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You're redefining grammatical gender beyond all limits in your effort to make a point that seems unnecessary.
Are you confusing grammatical gender with physical gender? If they were the same, then copulation would be much more rampant than it is. Oh wait . . . .
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Why do you leave "he" and "she" used to refer to persons of known gender out of your dismissal of grammatical gender? We do have grammatically masculine and feminine nouns -- any that elicit the gramatically-gender-specific pronoun. Man. Woman. Actress. Waitress. You're redefining grammatical gender beyond all limits in your effort to make a point that seems unnecessary.
Except that actress and waitress are already disappearing from common usage (people are just calling their servers "waiters" and actresses "actors"), following aviatrix and editrix (ix=ess in these cases). Just like Lady Policeman, Lady Priest (Rectrix? Padressse? Madre? Vicaress? Curatina?) and so on.
Pretty soon it will be just man and woman, boy and girl.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
Because if you take a piece of well-formed English speech and replace "she" with "he" throughout the syntax remains the same. You have changed the meaning, not the grammar.
You can't (always) do that in a language with grammatical gender. You have to change other things as well.
Come to think of it we do have the agreement between she/her/hers and so on, so you are right about that. But its pretty vestigial compared with what most other European languages have. (And often breaks down in colloquial speech in at least some varieties of English, including that of the south-east of England. People can, and do, use "they" and "their" for an individual of known sex). So yes, English has a tiny bit of grammatical gender. But hardly any.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Evangeline
Shipmate
# 7002
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
It's already clear. A "freshman" is a "first year student" regardless of gender. A perfectly good word is being deprecated. No one ever considered using "freshwoman" to denote a first-year co-ed (oops, another gender-heavy word).
I am surprised by the constant use of co-ed to refer to female students in the US. I recently read a book by a woman and she used this term frequently. I can't believe that this term is deemed acceptable it just makes female students seem so "secondary" as though males are the main game and females are a sort of add-on to me.
If an all female College "went co-ed" as we say in Australia (we use the term purely as an adjective to refer to mixed gender high schools), would the male students be referred to as "co-eds" for ever thereafter? Would it be acceptable to refer to non-white students as "non-segs" or "co-races"? ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
Posts: 2871 | From: "A capsule of modernity afloat in a wild sea" | Registered: May 2004
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Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evangeline:
I am surprised by the constant use of co-ed to refer to female students in the US. I recently read a book by a woman and she used this term frequently. I can't believe that this term is deemed acceptable it just makes female students seem so "secondary" as though males are the main game and females are a sort of add-on to me.
That term has puzzled (and annoyed) me for years.
When in college I lived in women's dorms and also in a co-ed dorm. They're not the same.
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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
Actually, I'm puzzled by the fading-away of "actress." I can certainly see no reason, for example, that the gender of a committee head need be indicated by separate words like "chairMAN" and "chairWOMAN," since it's pretty rare that the chairperson's gender is at all relevant to committee-doings.
I have a friend who does community theater, though, and it's equally (or maybe even more) rare that men play women's roles or women play men's roles (at least for anything beyond spear-carriers). STM it would make sense to keep the gender distinction in "actor" and "actress."
My friend directed a couple of one-acts several months ago, and had a list of auditioners. A couple of people on her list had names like "Pat Smith" and "Lee Brown" -- names which often go to people of either sex. Though she knew their ages, weights, and heights, she couldn't decide which roles to ask them to read for until she clapped eyes on them. The designation "actor" or "actress" could have saved a little time and shuffling.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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argona
Shipmate
# 14037
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
Just like Lady Policeman, Lady Priest (Rectrix? Padressse? Madre? Vicaress? Curatina?) and so on.
A recent contributor to a comments thread on the Catholic Herald, denying that any Anglican could be a priest, merely a minister, coined the term 'ministrette' for women.
[ 11. July 2013, 13:17: Message edited by: argona ]
Posts: 327 | From: Oriental dill patch? (4,7) | Registered: Aug 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
Three thoughts on "actor/actress".
Firstly, its what women actors want to be called. That should trump anything else.
Secondly, the "ess" suffix has a somewhat diminutive sound to it, especially when it is added to a word without a suffix, such as poet. This does not apply so much to words with an "or" suffix, but there is still a suggestion in the sound of a lesser status.
Thirdly, there has been an implication of an iffy status about words feminised in this way. (Think about the effect of using "priestess" to describe women in ministry - you know it is used deliberately to call up inappropriate suggestions in the mind.) In the case of "actress", there is that phrase "as the actress said to the bishop". Something is meant there which the word actor would not carry, and it is not complimentary to the woman, who is being set up against the probity of the prelate. Or supposed probity. The "ess" suffix can be construed to be carrying a hidden snigger.
As for auditions - wouldn't the Pats and Robins and Hilarys be going for parts which would make their gender clear?
Posts: 5833 | Registered: May 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
Three thoughts on "actor/actress".
Firstly, its what women actors want to be called. That should trump anything else.
Do they?! Are all actresses of one mind on this? Does AMPAS know?
quote:
Secondly, the "ess" suffix has a somewhat diminutive sound to it, especially when it is added to a word without a suffix, such as poet. This does not apply so much to words with an "or" suffix, but there is still a suggestion in the sound of a lesser status.
I don't detect the diminutive sound. I doubt anyone thinks less of Meryl Streep's performances because she's won Best Actress Oscars rather than Best Female Actor Oscars.
('Female actor' seems very cumbersome.)
quote:
In the case of "actress", there is that phrase "as the actress said to the bishop". Something is meant there which the word actor would not carry, and it is not complimentary to the woman, who is being set up against the probity of the prelate. Or supposed probity. The "ess" suffix can be construed to be carrying a hidden snigger.
On this basis presumably the word 'Bishop' should be banned too? A story of a senior clergyman engaging in extra-marital tomfoolery isn't exactly flattering.
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As for auditions - wouldn't the Pats and Robins and Hilarys be going for parts which would make their gender clear?
Perhaps they just threw their hats (bowlers, stetsons, flowery ones) into a general ring?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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