Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
This is fighting the wrong fight. There are many threats to marriage. Homosexuality isn't one of them.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The change in doctrine on Jewish deicide didn't convince you that the Roman Catholic church is a fallible institution run by human beings? Not enough Jews burned at the stake for it to matter, I guess.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Of course that's what Francis+++ is trying to do, and IngoB hates him for it. Hmmmmm.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Aside/
Am I the only person who hears the refrain(same as its title) from OutKast's Chronometrophobia when reading the title of this thread? All of you as well, yeah?
/Aside

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I've been singing it to 'Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious'.

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The soul is dyed the color of its thoughts. Heraclitus

Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
That is naive. Homosexuality is the contemporary issue which is driving the civil conception of marriage further away from what the Church considers to be the true and right conception of marriage.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The Church of England will take 10-20 years, maybe less if they can agree that it be at the Vicar's discretion as with divorcees.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Do I breed frogs?

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Of course not. The RCC doesn't allow marriage for frogs, therefore they're not allowed to have sex.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
I do not hate Pope Francis. I just think that he is the final hurrah of the disastrously failing "aggiornamento" approach, and I worry that he will delay the necessary reform of the reform even further. He is also a Jesuit, and no Jesuit should ever be the ultimate authority in charge of the liturgy. It is, shall we say, not their strength.

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That link has material about a conservative being upset that everything wasn't going to be done in Latin anymore. The one true language of the church, apparently.

Giving people liturgy in their own language - does that count as part of the disastrous failure?

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
... What is true is that I simply won't let myself be bullied by hurt. ...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Giving people liturgy in their own language - does that count as part of the disastrous failure?

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
After sleeping on it, I've come to the conclusion that IngoB would be infinitely more compelling and likable if he could just develop a sense of humor. He's so gawddamn serious, it makes just want to lie down on the floor.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by RuthW:
How very Protestant of you.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:
Get a t-shirt. It's catchy. It also warns the public not to expect any compassion or empathy from you.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
It is one thing that I admire about the Orthodox, that they were more careful with conserving their liturgies.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
And yet Slavonic and Greek liturgies among converts in the Anglophone world are disappearing faster than virgin Catholic choirboys.

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Posted                      

quote:

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IngoB: Homosexuality is the contemporary issue which is driving the civil conception of marriage further away from what the Church considers to be the true and right conception of marriage.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Of course, importing lots of Protestants into their ranks will quite generally be to rock-solid Orthodoxy as gargling with vinegar is to teeth...

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Soror Magna:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
... What is true is that I simply won't let myself be bullied by hurt. ...

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Get a t-shirt. It's catchy. It also warns the public not to expect any compassion or empathy from you.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
Of course, importing lots of Protestants into their ranks will quite generally be to rock-solid Orthodoxy as gargling with vinegar is to teeth...

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Tell me about it. They're already making us too much like the Catholic Church in a rush to get us on the anti-Gay bandwagon. Fucking western baggage.

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A positive comment from IngoB about any non-Catholic* is so rare, we should be encouraging it when it does happen. Now you've made him piss all over the Protestants where we ain't done nuffink wrong, and let him rope you in to it too.

*Or, for that matter, about any living Catholic

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:

quote:

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Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
The Church of England will take 10-20 years, maybe less if they can agree that it be at the Vicar's discretion as with divorcees.

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Oh dear, this sounds like compromise and meeting the other side of the debate in a way forwards that is sort of amicable for people who's consciences reach different conclusions to other people...

As has been made clear to me this is not allowed, so please move along with your compromise and take it elsewhere, it is not welcome here...

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by loggats:
"Fuck Western baggage" made me lol. Not in an entirely good way either.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
A positive comment from IngoB about any non-Catholic* is so rare, we should be encouraging it when it does happen.

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quote:

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Now you've made him piss all over the Protestants where we ain't done nuffink wrong, and let him rope you in to it too.

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Well, there's Protestants, and then there's Protestants. The ones who want to take the Orthodox Church back to the 19th century Russian pogroms, only with gays this time instead of Jews, we could do without. Twice over. And in that particular, they are much closer to the Catholics than to many of their (ex-)fellow Protestants.

It used to be that such people didn't hang around long. They would become Orthodox because we're conservative about some things, then decide we're not nearly conservative enough, and move on. One couple that used to go to our church as recently as a year ago has now joined a schismatic ex-Catholic group, because they're closer to the level of bitterness and anger that they are seeking (and bringing with them). The problem nowadays is that these people are invading the OC in such numbers that they look around and see people like themselves, and decide to stay. Time will tell if they drag the OC into embracing their own hate, or if the better elements of the OC (there are alas plenty of cradle with the same crabbed hearts) can drag them out of it.

indeed.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Is it the 'concept' of marriage that you are worried about, or is it people's marriages?

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quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
Those are very real threats with a high potential to put an end to their marriage. The fact that gay people can marry too isn't a threat to them at all.

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quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:
Tell me about it. They're already making us too much like the Catholic Church in a rush to get us on the anti-Gay bandwagon. Fucking western baggage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, it's one thing to not let squeamishness about someone's feelings hold you back, it's an entirely different thing to behave as if you have scored points when people express hurt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
IngoB. I'm sorry to have misunderstood. And I DO retract everything. Not that I understand you now. But you mean better than you come across to aging schismatics.

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Posted                      

quote:

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IngoB: The concept.

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quote:

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IngoB: Marriage is now something that exists only as long as both partner still agree that it does, it has no binding force of its own. It has become a lot more like any other romantic relationship then: if your girlfriend does not love you any longer, she will dump you; and if your wife does not love you any longer, it is just the same.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Ah, then you are under the mistaken belief that IngoB is capable of changing his behavior based on the type of feedback he receives?

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quote:

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Well, there's Protestants, and then there's Protestants...

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Giving people liturgy in their own language - does that count as part of the disastrous failure?

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I doubt that you are seriously interested, but yes indeed, I would say that it is a contributing factor. I've travelled the world considerably more than most, and if I can find a traditional mass in a country where I do not really understand the language, I can understand and participate in the liturgy almost entirely. If I have my bilingual missal with me, only the sermon and announcements will be lost on me. If I don't, then I'll also typically not understand the mass readings (my Latin is not that good). But all the rest of the liturgy will be just like at home. Universal. Catholic. It is simply not true that the Latin is a serious barrier to understanding. If you go to mass regularly, and have access to a bilingual missal or order of mass (the latter costs peanuts), then you will know what's happening by heart within a year. Because these parts are basically not changing. To give the mass readings in the vernacular (as well) is really the only thing that was needed to improve local "understanding".

Instead, if I now go to a place where I do not understand the language, then it is just blablabla - receive communion - blablabla, with no participation in the liturgy. The RCC used to be cosmopolitan but unifying in her liturgy, bringing all the world together under one roof. Now it is balkanised, nationalistic, with liturgies that only work locally and which are often enough in different stages of translation from the promulgated Latin standard. And has this change improved the appreciation of the liturgy? I see no evidence whatsoever that people are more engaged with the liturgy in the ordinary form than in the extraordinary form. And yes, I have had my experiences of both. In fact, most of my time as a RC I have attended the ordinary form, for many years in Germany and England basically every Sunday, and on occasion in countries all over the world.

I really am not a liturgy nazi. It is simply not something I particularly obsess about. I certainly do not dispute the validity of the ordinary mass. I do not dispute that it can be done in a beautiful way, or bear great spiritual fruit. I will even agree that some of the changes introduced to the mass were good and beneficial, which puts me squarely at odds with most traditionalists. Still, I do think that ditching Latin was a serious, serious mistake. As was the removal of Gregorian chant, while we are at it. It is one thing that I admire about the Orthodox, that they were more careful with conserving their liturgies.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Also, it's one thing to not let squeamishness about someone's feelings hold you back, it's an entirely different thing to behave as if you have scored points when people express hurt.

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And where am I supposed to have behaved like that then?

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by loggats:
"Fuck Western baggage" made me lol. Not in an entirely good way either.

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That was mostly a swipe at Catholicism since the things that IngoB most hates in Protestantism are just as present in the RCC, from an Orthodox point of view. Or as we say sometimes, "The Pope was the first Protestant."

quote:

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Originally posted by Zach82:
A positive comment from IngoB about any non-Catholic* is so rare, we should be encouraging it when it does happen.

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Ah, then you are under the mistaken belief that IngoB is capable of changing his behavior based on the type of feedback he receives?

quote:

---

Now you've made him piss all over the Protestants where we ain't done nuffink wrong, and let him rope you in to it too.

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Well, there's Protestants, and then there's Protestants. The ones who want to take the Orthodox Church back to the 19th century Russian pogroms, only with gays this time instead of Jews, we could do without. Twice over. And in that particular, they are much closer to the Catholics than to many of their (ex-)fellow Protestants.


d.

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I would add to them, the ones who want to make us Eastern versions of the ECUSA


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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"

Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Palimpsest:
The change in doctrine on Jewish deicide didn't convince you that the Roman Catholic church is a fallible institution run by human beings? Not enough Jews burned at the stake for it to matter, I guess.

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What change of doctrine on the Jews? What do you believe to have been the doctrine, how do you believe it to have changed, and what level of authority do you believe had been assigned to that doctrine? (Also please note that I'm not denying all development of doctrine. The key text on this is by Newman.)

I think you will find that it is orthopraxis, not orthodoxy, which tends to be lacking in the RCC throughout history. To their damnaeetion, RCs in all ages generally should have known better.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Of course that's what Francis+++ is trying to do, and IngoB hates him for it. Hmmmmm.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:

There is something extremely gratifying watching Zach82 kick IngoB's ass all over Hell, pulping the ongoing drone of rationalization with pithy comments.

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Posted                      

quote:

---

Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
It is one thing that I admire about the Orthodox, that they were more careful with conserving their liturgies.

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And yet Slavonic and Greek liturgies among converts in the Anglophone world are disappearing faster than virgin Catholic choirboys.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by RooK:
There is something to be admired about thousands of intellectuals toiling over centuries to knit together a system of belief that can appear completely internally-consistent.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by Firenze

And Magisterium. Who wouldn't want something with a cool name like that? It sounds like the bestest Dr Who plot arc thingie ever.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by LeRoc:
You really don't understand anything about marriage.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
I was indeed quite interested, but largely for the purpose of establishing whether or not you are a complete loon. Now that this is firmly established, I can ignore reading you for content from here on in.

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
You think that everything was so much better when no-one anywhere could understand the Mass without learning a dead second language, so long as you as Mr Jetset could understand no matter where you went in the world, and fuck all the ordinary people who spent most of their lives in one place.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Hell if you can project all kinds of motives and assumptions all over my gay brethren, why can't I take a shot at you?

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quote:

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Originally posted by Palimpsest:
Of course you may chose to term such a complete reversal on the Jewish Deicide as "doctrinal development" but if so, you can also apply that to gay marriage. Fortunately you won't find many early commentators on Gay Marriage that you have to develop away.

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Posted                          

quote:

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Originally posted by IngoB:
If you see an American proudly flying the Stars and Stripes in California, and then you see the same in Iowa, is it necessary that they visit each other and see each other's flag? Or does whatever happens there in their minds and hearts happen merely by knowing that other people will do the same all across the USA? There is a lot more that could be said but you are not reading for content any longer, and I only wanted to point out that you misunderstood what you did read.

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Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
If you see an American proudly flying the Stars and Stripes in California, and then you see the same in Iowa, is it necessary that they visit each other and see each other's flag? Or does whatever happens there in their minds and hearts happen merely by knowing that other people will do the same all across the USA? There is a lot more that could be said but you are not reading for content any longer, and I only wanted to point out that you misunderstood what you did read.

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One thing that could be said is that discussing a visual symbol in 2 different English-speaking States is a spectacularly poor analogy for the use of a liturgy in different countries that have different languages.

It's also completely wrong to reason that the only way people can be doing the same thing is if they're doing it in the same dead tongue.

Let me put plainly why I'm no longer interested in what you have to say on the main topic of this thread. There's absolutely no hope of you showing signs of movement on a moral issue if you can't even be comfortable with a change in the form of a liturgy - and I emphasise, a change in form not in substance. If you're the kind of person who pines for speaking in the language that just happened to be around at the time when the church managed to get itself into a position of power, then it's a waste of pixels to get you to consider the implications of cultural and scientific changes over the last couple of millennia.

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Posted                       

quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
There's absolutely no hope of you showing signs of movement on a moral issue if you can't even be comfortable with a change in the form of a liturgy - and I emphasise, a change in form not in substance.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by orfeo:
If you're the kind of person who pines for speaking in the language that just happened to be around at the time when the church managed to get itself into a position of power, then it's a waste of pixels to get you to consider the implications of cultural and scientific changes over the last couple of millennia.

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
What was the official position of the church on the Inquisitions and Autos da fé and their associated executions? What's the official position now?

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quote:

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Originally posted by orfeo:
Well, as long as he could read along in his missal he'd be fine, right?

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Posted                      

quote:

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IngoB: Fine. I'm glad we talked.

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Posted                      

quote:

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Originally posted by Porridge:

At the time, I remember thinking what a pity it was that the enormous, complicated, elegant edifice of her seamlessly-fitted arguments had been executed in aid of such clearly inhuman conclusions. This thread puts me in mind of her.

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Posted                       

quote:

---

Originally posted by Porridge:
In high school, I had an English teacher with whom I tangled over some issue -- free will and predestination, perhaps? Not sure I recall. I was from a nominally Protestant non-churchgoing upbringing; she was the intellectual child of parochial schools and a college founded & run by Jesuits. I remember my frustration in those discussions: forced to admire her lengthy, detailed, rationales for her side(s) of the question, while being utterly and fundamentally unable to accept her arguments. Of course, I was unable to mount any real challenge to her, as a half-formed, half-educated 16-y.o.

At the time, I remember thinking what a pity it was that the enormous, complicated, elegant edifice of her seamlessly-fitted arguments had been executed in aid of such clearly inhuman conclusions. This thread puts me in mind of her.

My suspicion now is that there are unspoken premises here too far apart to be bridged. One side argues from a world made by God for God. The other argues from a world made by God for humanity.

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Posted                          

quote:

---

Originally posted by IngoB:
The fun bit is that your reaction, as uncomprehending and dismissive as it is, is such a neat confirmation of the symbolic power I'm talking about. A mere whiff of Latin, and you go mental, because it is not just another language. Even to you, even now.

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Seriously? You think Latin has special spiritual powers or something?

Oh my Lord. Who spoke Aramaic.

Ingo, my dear deluded... colleague... it is just another language. One from history that nobody speaks. That's the point. I feel exactly the same way about people who decide that the King James Version is God's own style of English and won't read anything translated in the last couple of centuries. It's not an issue about a particular language, it's an issue about communication - an issue that I devote my professional life to. In that context, I feel much the same way about people who think that a legal document isn't a real legal document unless it's expressed in English from the Victorian Era.

And it's an issue about the ability to abstract a principle from a practice. There are far too many people in this world who follow practices without any thought to the rationale behind them, and who consequently aren't capable of seeing when the rationale might need reexamining and that the same principle might now lead to a different practice.

Latin was a sensible language for conducting church business when Latin was a lingua franca (ie for the exact same reason why the New Testament is written in Greek when some of its authors weren't actually all that great at Greek and were writing in their rough second language). It was precisely because of its usefulness across the boundaries of Europe that it took hold. And indeed, people continued to learn Latin for many, many centuries.

But to hold onto the idea of Latin in the church when Latin is no longer capable of being a method of communication for all but a select few is to elevate practice over principle while completely missing what the practice was for. Speaking about the 'universality' of Latin in 2013 is just bewildering, unless I suppose you're talking about the universal incomprehensibility. The world's most widely understood language today is English. That's the modern language that fulfils the function that Latin fulfilled 1500+ years ago.

[ 21. August 2013, 13:28: Message edited by: orfeo ]

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.