homepage
  roll on christmas  
click here to find out more about ship of fools click here to sign up for the ship of fools newsletter click here to support ship of fools
community the mystery worshipper gadgets for god caption competition foolishness features ship stuff
discussion boards live chat cafe avatars frequently-asked questions the ten commandments gallery private boards register for the boards
 
Ship of Fools


Post new thread  Post a reply
My profile login | | Directory | Search | FAQs | Board home
   - Printer-friendly view Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
» Ship of Fools   »   » Oblivion   » How can Christians justify associating with church? (Page 2)

 - Email this page to a friend or enemy.  
Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Source: (consider it) Thread: How can Christians justify associating with church?
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Why do we need the church? because the church does this:
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
I don't want a "non-churchey christian community". I want Christians to just get stuck into the world they live in.

In the city where I work there is a church whose crypt is used as a refuge for the homeless. It is supported by other churches as well as by individuals. The church does this.

In the town where I live there is a church which distributes food to the hungry. Several churches supply the food. The church does this.

Our church supports charities that dig wells in arid places, we have a charity in our town which takes a monthly shipping container of toiletries, stationery for schools, basic food out to Africa. The church does this and a lot more too.

And all this without having to look to look far from where I live and work.

And there's another thing about churches (as communities of people, not buildings) it isn't just a community of flawed people, though it is of course this, God is there too.

quote:
I know, for many, it might prove difficult not having someone to tell you what to believe, but you might just survive.
If there were no churches, no communities out of which these things came, then these things would not have happened.

You can't have both a set of Christians that get involved but no church. It doesn't happen that way.

--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
The UK does have a bit of a problem in that it's people are inclined to love God but not the Church .
As has been said upthread it's easy to make, say 'the Church', or say 'the Government' a hate figure .

When I was involved in the farm protests of the late 90s there was hatred in my heart for the government . Involvement in the Church since that time has helped me come to terms with deep-rooted negative feelings associated with farming and life in general . I've not felt the need to 'justify associating with the church', no more than I'd defend the indefensible where the church's failings are concerned.

Hatred isn't pretty wherever it occurs .
I sympathise with anyone who hates the Church . Religion worldwide does, alas , have a reputation for harbouring or perpetuating more than it's fair share of hate . And it's a word that crops up rather too often in the Bible for my liking.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I can only repeat what you cited. The only righteousness we claim is the righteousness of Jesus Christ on his cross.

If we claim that righteousness, then we should be waaaaaaaaaaay better than the rest of the world!

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Apparently Tertullian said one Christian is no Christian.

Well, or at least somebody probably said "unus Christianus, nullus Christianus" in Latin antiquity. It's a good saying, but as usual it is difficult to trace it to a definitive source with the web. If anyone finds the context, please do let me know.
I think the saying is wrong. You can be a Christian without belonging to the church - you're just a muzzled Christian. Our relationship with God contains both transcendent aspects and immanent aspects. By not belonging to a church the immanent aspect is curtailed.

By Tertullians reasoning (if it was Tertullian) all those Christian hermits in the early church would not be Christians.

Schroedinger's Cat: if you believe yourself to be a follower of Christ then you are a Christian. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
By Tertullians reasoning (if it was Tertullian) all those Christian hermits in the early church would not be Christians.

That's misunderstanding spatial and social for spiritual separation. A hermit need not be spiritually separated from the Church at all, neither in their mind nor in that of the Church, and indeed RC canon law provides for diocesan oversight of consecrated hermits. Hermits are in some sense like spiritual probes sent out into silence and solitude. And historically speaking these probes have often returned to enrich the Church mightily, e.g., by being the forerunners of monasticism in the desert or by bringing back mystical fruit like Julian of Norwich (an anchoress, a type of hermit).

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Schroedinger's Cat: if you believe yourself to be a follower of Christ then you are a Christian. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

And if I believe myself to be the Emperor of the French, then I will be a Corsican military genius of short stature.

However, SC presumably was baptized and so indeed is a Christian in at least a basic sense. His error consists not in saying that he is that, but in believing that he can be that without a church. At a minimum, his baptism was presumably carried out by a church or at least by someone following the traditions handed down by the Church.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
By Tertullians reasoning (if it was Tertullian) all those Christian hermits in the early church would not be Christians.

That's misunderstanding spatial and social for spiritual separation. A hermit need not be spiritually separated from the Church at all, neither in their mind nor in that of the Church, and indeed RC canon law provides for diocesan oversight of consecrated hermits.
Are you saying not being a physical part of church is fine as long as you remain spiritually part of it in your mind?

That's an unusual position (possibly justifiable) but not what I suspect the original intent of the Tertullian quote was.

Regardless. The point is that hermits (and presumably the early church) believed it was possible to commune with the triune God in isolation. Therefore, there is no reason they cannot be called Christians.

Hermits are hobbled Christians (they lack the immanent aspect of our faith ) but they are still Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Schroedinger's Cat: if you believe yourself to be a follower of Christ then you are a Christian. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.

And if I believe myself to be the Emperor of the French, then I will be a Corsican military genius of short stature.

Invalid comparison. Scripture tells us if we ask seek and knock, God will give us the Holy Spirit.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

However, SC presumably was baptized and so indeed is a Christian in at least a basic sense. His error consists not in saying that he is that, but in believing that he can be that without a church. At a minimum, his baptism was presumably carried out by a church or at least by someone following the traditions handed down by the Church.

Baptism is not an indicator of being a Christian.

It may have been once but no longer. Ideally and theoretically it is a good marker, in reality it is a poor one.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Are you saying not being a physical part of church is fine as long as you remain spiritually part of it in your mind?

In your mind and in the mind of the Church. You are committing exactly the same error here, reducing the life of faith to the individual. Now, obviously the mind of the Church is not as easily circumscribed as your mind, and it is not always clear how to access it (whereas I can simply talk to you). However, we do know that the practice of becoming a hermit arose from the Church, was and is supported by the Church as a vocation, and remains officially accepted and regulated through the Church (e.g., through the oversight of a bishop). Hence it is possible to become a hermit in accordance with the mind of the Church. That does not mean that each and every person deciding to head off into the wilderness to live a life of prayer is doing the right thing by the Church. For example, a mother of young children or a parish priest could not simply do that without neglecting prior Christian duties. Much less does it mean that in the mind of the Church each and every kind of social and spatial separation is blessed, as long as one approves of it oneself. Not going to mass on Sunday is very much not OK for your average Catholic, even though it may be licit for a Catholic hermit somewhere in the wilderness (or indeed a house-bound sick/elderly person, etc.) to just participate by spiritual communion. Context is important.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Regardless. The point is that hermits (and presumably the early church) believed it was possible to commune with the triune God in isolation. Therefore, there is no reason they cannot be called Christians.

Correct, except for the "Therefore". It is not sufficient that the hermits thinks so for it to be so. It is required for the Church to think so. The Church has the ability to bind and loosen, she has the power to decide such things. The individual hermit doesn't have that power. And the Church has that power because ultimately her Head is Christ and her Mind is the Holy Spirit.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Hermits are hobbled Christians (they lack the immanent aspect of our faith ) but they are still Christians.

Hermits are not hobbled Christians. They are extraordinary Christians ("extraordinary" as in unusual, not as in superior). And I have no idea how a human could possibly have faith but lack an immanent aspect of faith.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Invalid comparison. Scripture tells us if we ask seek and knock, God will give us the Holy Spirit.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus will not receive all who say "Lord, Lord" to Him. But I don't want to disturb your eisegetical circles...

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Baptism is not an indicator of being a Christian. It may have been once but no longer. Ideally and theoretically it is a good marker, in reality it is a poor one.

Receiving baptism is as such a Christianising action. Every baptised person is hence a Christian, however minuscule and virtual the effect of that grace may have been.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Are you saying not being a physical part of church is fine as long as you remain spiritually part of it in your mind?

In your mind and in the mind of the Church. You are committing exactly the same error here, reducing the life of faith to the individual.
So if the church sanctions you to disregard Tertullian's idea that one Christian is no Christian it's okay.

That begs the question what Tertullian meant then.

And I'm afraid you're being anachronistic in this regard to hermits. They only really started after Tertullians time. It's quite possible Tertullian would not have approved of hermits with that quote.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Regardless. The point is that hermits (and presumably the early church) believed it was possible to commune with the triune God in isolation. Therefore, there is no reason they cannot be called Christians.

Correct, except for the "Therefore". It is not sufficient that the hermits thinks so for it to be so. It is required for the Church to think so. The Church has the ability to bind and loosen, she has the power to decide such things. The individual hermit doesn't have that power. And the Church has that power because ultimately her Head is Christ and her Mind is the Holy Spirit.
That's your Roman Catholicism speaking I assume. As an Anglican, we have broader means of where power and truth lies: scripture, tradition and reason.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Hermits are hobbled Christians (they lack the immanent aspect of our faith ) but they are still Christians.

Hermits are not hobbled Christians. They are extraordinary Christians ("extraordinary" as in unusual, not as in superior). And I have no idea how a human could possibly have faith but lack an immanent aspect of faith.

Immanent as in not in relationship with others.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:


quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Invalid comparison. Scripture tells us if we ask seek and knock, God will give us the Holy Spirit.

Scripture also tells us that Jesus will not receive all who say "Lord, Lord" to Him. But I don't want to disturb your eisegetical circles...

How is my comment eisegetical? Your return quote is valid but only as a temperence of mine. Only those who do the will of the Father are accepted by Christ and the one who sincerely asks, seeks and knocks will receive.

The Lord, Lord quote refers quite easily to the church as well as the individual in this case. There are plenty examples of churches not doing God's will in the scriptures.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Baptism is not an indicator of being a Christian. It may have been once but no longer. Ideally and theoretically it is a good marker, in reality it is a poor one.

Receiving baptism is as such a Christianising action. Every baptised person is hence a Christian, however minuscule and virtual the effect of that grace may have been.
A christianising action? Yes. But there are plenty of other christianising actions too. Romans 5 is good on this idea. Plenty of gentiles that instinctively do what the law requires and circumcision is not a physical one but one of the heart.

My semester doing Sacraments in the Catholic tradition at my local Catholic Uni told me grace is always conferred in baptism, but whether the recipient takes up that grace is another matter. If the person does not take up that grace then the label "Christian" is essentially meaningless.

Christian = baptised is not a good definition.

[ 04. October 2013, 15:19: Message edited by: Evensong ]

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That begs the question...

Look who doesn't know what "begging the question" means.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So if the church sanctions you to disregard Tertullian's idea that one Christian is no Christian it's okay. That begs the question what Tertullian meant then.

No, you did not get it. The Church agreeing to this stops it from being a "one Christian" thing. It becomes a "one Christian as sent on a mission and supported by many Christians" thing. Likewise, a lone missionary is not a non-Christian. The difference between a solitary missionary and a hermit is that the missionary is on an external journey and the hermit on an internal one. But both a journeying for and with the Church, not apart from her.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That's your Roman Catholicism speaking I assume. As an Anglican, we have broader means of where power and truth lies: scripture, tradition and reason.

How Anglicans are dealing with power and truth is thus rather potent evidence that the means of scripture, tradition and reason (as understood by Anglicans) are totally inadequate. It is hard to imagine a church that has more dysfunctional power structures and less unity on doctrine.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Immanent as in not in relationship with others.

Hermits do not spend much time on talking to others, that's true. But they have not dropped out of the world.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
How is my comment eisegetical? Your return quote is valid but only as a temperence of mine.

Your logic, as far as there was any to it, was that my comparison with the "Napoleon Bonaparte" mental patient is invalid because we can simply become Christian by deciding to become Christian (for if we knock, it will be opened). The mental patient would not be crazy if he actually became Napoleon Bonaparte upon thinking that he is. Tempering your verse destroys your faulty logic: if some mental patients do not become Napoleon Bonaparte upon thinking that they are, then they remain crazy.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
A christianising action? Yes. But there are plenty of other christianising actions too. Romans 5 is good on this idea. Plenty of gentiles that instinctively do what the law requires and circumcision is not a physical one but one of the heart.

It is fortunately not my job to correct your one-sided reading of the bible, and this is taking us away from the original question.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
My semester doing Sacraments in the Catholic tradition at my local Catholic Uni told me grace is always conferred in baptism, but whether the recipient takes up that grace is another matter. If the person does not take up that grace then the label "Christian" is essentially meaningless. Christian = baptised is not a good definition.

Caveat emptor. (Buyer beware.) For an actual RC view of baptism, you could for example turn to the
quote:
Catechism of the Catholic Church
An indelible spiritual mark . . .

1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation.83 Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.

1273 Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship.84 The baptismal seal enables and commits Christians to serve God by a vital participation in the holy liturgy of the Church and to exercise their baptismal priesthood by the witness of holy lives and practical charity.85

1274 The Holy Spirit has marked us with the seal of the Lord ("Dominicus character") "for the day of redemption."86 "Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life."87 The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith,"88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

83 Cf. Rom 8:29; Council of Trent (1547): DS 1609-1619.
84 Cf. LG 11.
85 Cf. LG 10.
86 St. Augustine, Ep. 98,5:PL 33,362; Eph 4:30; cf. 1:13-14; 2 Cor 1:21-22.
87 St. Irenaeus, Dem ap. 3:SCh 62,32.
88 Roman Missal, EP I (Roman Canon) 97.

There are not many Christianising actions like that.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
comet

Snowball in Hell
# 10353

 - Posted      Profile for comet   Author's homepage   Email comet   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
the two of you posting on the same thread and attempting to communicate with each other has the effect of making my Give-a-shit-ometer drop out the floor. suddenly I start to wonder if there's a football game on and if I want to actually watch it.

--------------------
Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions

"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin

Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged
Pooks
Shipmate
# 11425

 - Posted      Profile for Pooks     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
[*Eyeing Comet's hunting knife nervously.]

[*Gulps.]

[*Turns and runs away.]

Posts: 1547 | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That begs the question...

Look who doesn't know what "begging the question" means.
Sadly, we both know that the commonly-used incorrect usage is actually usurping the original meaning. The ignorant masses win, again.

Stupid people also seem to outbreed smart people.

Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That begs the question...

Look who doesn't know what "begging the question" means.
Sadly, we both know that the commonly-used incorrect usage is actually usurping the original meaning. The ignorant masses win, again.

Stupid people also seem to outbreed smart people.

That's because smart people know when to stop having kids.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

 - Posted      Profile for RooK   Author's homepage   Email RooK   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's because smart people know when to stop having kids.

Who might then go on to ask you if it begs the question whether we might be breeding out intelligence. To the eugenicsmobile, boy wonder!
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

 - Posted      Profile for mousethief     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That's because smart people know when to stop having kids.

Who might then go on to ask you if it begs the question whether we might be breeding out intelligence. To the eugenicsmobile, boy wonder!
Frightening, isn't it? 1000 years from now everybody will be named "Bubba" and vote Republican.

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Luckily a lot of stupid people just lack opportunity, not intelligence. There is hope!

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Luckily a lot of stupid people just lack opportunity, not intelligence.

Interesting - a sentence that is completely illogical or threateningly sinister, but becomes harmless (if factually false) upon adding merely two quotation marks.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

 - Posted      Profile for rolyn         Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Prior to WW1 a group of intellectuals had become concerned about the masses , and what they saw as their 'silliness'. The death toll of 2 world wars and a major flu epidemic in between had a sobering effect on such views.

--------------------
Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
My apologies for taking so long to reply Bingo. Much to my dislike, I have far too much to do these days and have only very little time on the ship.

I'm trussed for time again so I'm not going to requote.

As to your first point:

If you wish to spiritualise Tertullian's phrase that is your affair. I don't think that's what he meant (as I said before and you ignored).

To your second:

Anglicans have dysfunctional power structures? Not at all! We are very wary of power, as is right and proper. As to less unity on doctrine as a symbol of truth - again you are speaking from an RCC perspective.

Anglicans do not equate uniformity with truth.

Thanks be to God.

Your third point:

I suspect they have if the phrase comes from Tertullian in the late second, early third century.

Your fourth and fifth point:

Yes we can become Christian if we ask seek knock. That's what the scripture says. We can receive the Holy Spirit if we do that (actually that's from Luke - the Matthean version is more vague)

It would be more helpful to discussion if you told me why you disagreed with my exegesis than just saying you disliked it.

To your sixth point:

I had to trawl through the catechism for my essay on baptismal theology and quoted extensively from it within the essay.

The catechism does not discuss whether a person is a Christian if they fail to be faithful to their baptisms.

1274 implies that you do have to be faithful.

The faithful Christian who has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith

In my neck of the woods, many children are baptised into my tradition and yours purely to get into schools. The families have no further interest in Christianity other than this.

I hold these people are not Christians.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
That begs the question...

Look who doesn't know what "begging the question" means.
Sadly, we both know that the commonly-used incorrect usage is actually usurping the original meaning. The ignorant masses win, again.

Stupid people also seem to outbreed smart people.

I suspect Zach didn't understand the phraseology could be adapted. He is a bit narrow minded sometimes.

Luckily I don't think he has kids.

I on the other hand am blameless under the law.

My kids are academically gifted and my eldest has just graduated in the top 4% of the state.

And just in case you think he gets that from his dad, I'm graduating in the top 2% of my university.

IN YO FACE ASSHOLE. [Razz]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

 - Posted      Profile for Boogie     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Luckily a lot of stupid people just lack opportunity, not intelligence.

Interesting - a sentence that is completely illogical or threateningly sinister, but becomes harmless (if factually false) upon adding merely two quotation marks.
Not at all.

Plenty of people behave in stupid ways because they have been brought up badly. Plenty of people have oodles of brain power but have had no opportunity to exercise or express it. Plenty of people are very intelligent but have learning difficulties (like dyslexia) which have masked it and reduced their life chances.

--------------------
Garden. Room. Walk

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
And some people just have unrecognised, sometimes hidden traits that can be emotionally crippling: Evensong, for example, may suffer from terminal modesty.

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

 - Posted      Profile for Sioni Sais   Email Sioni Sais   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Most folk however are pretty good at a few things and dumber than dumb at almost everything else. Give me a loaded gun, spare ammunition and a bear at 30 yards and I would expect the bear to win.

--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"

(Paul Sinha, BBC)

Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004  |  IP: Logged
JonahMan
Shipmate
# 12126

 - Posted      Profile for JonahMan   Email JonahMan   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
And some people just have unrecognised, sometimes hidden traits that can be emotionally crippling: Evensong, for example, may suffer from terminal modesty.

We can but hope.

--------------------
Thank God for the aged
And old age itself, and illness and the grave
For when you're old, or ill and particularly in the coffin
It's no trouble to behave

Posts: 914 | From: Planet Zog | Registered: Dec 2006  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
bit of a tangent but...
I was under the impression that, on the whole, Australia used British English spelling, rather than US: am I mistaken?

(prompted by the use of "asshole" up thread - in the UK we have an arse, an ass being a domesticated beast of burden sometimes referred to as a donkey) [Cool]

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
As usual, we all know Evensong is clever because she tells us she is.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

 - Posted      Profile for balaam   Author's homepage   Email balaam   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
But referring TO an American. The use of "yo" should give he context.

--------------------
Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

 - Posted      Profile for Curiosity killed ...   Email Curiosity killed ...   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Recent experience has demonstrated a strong negative correlation between a good academic result for theology / ordination and actual ability to be a priest, have a clue about pastoral care or team work, learn liturgy or have any ability to lead a service without it being all about said ordinand with a First Class degree.

In other words, academic ability does not seem to be an indicator of a good priest, in fact, it might be a contra-indicator.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh, I don't know. I am perfectly willing to believe Real Life Evensong is insightful, intelligent, and engaging. We just don't see any of that here, where her posts are relentlessly boring and desperately needy.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
bit of a tangent but...
I was under the impression that, on the whole, Australia used British English spelling, rather than US: am I mistaken?

(prompted by the use of "asshole" up thread - in the UK we have an arse, an ass being a domesticated beast of burden sometimes referred to as a donkey) [Cool]

I'm a mongrel Australian.....not a true blue.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Mockingale
Shipmate
# 16599

 - Posted      Profile for Mockingale   Email Mockingale   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Schroedinger's cat:
The historical record of the church is not good. Murder, genocide, imperialism, racial aggression, religious aggression - all there. The church has been guilty of grabbing and abusing power through history.

Parts of the church have also spent a lot of time killing off other parts of the church, when they couldn't find any non-church people to kill.

Oh but that was the past, of course. It is all different today.

Today the church still abuses its power, abuses people under its care, and covers it up, because it is far more concerned with its own power base than the people involved. This abuse is not just sexual, but a lot of it is. There is also power abuse and spiritual abuse. In fact it seems that the entire story of the church today is one of abuse.

Then again, the church has shown itself to be sexist, anti-gay, demeaning of some of its own people, especially women. It is also paternalistic, being led mainly by men, and having mainly women in the pews.

And it is fundamentally conservative, wanting to hold onto the way things are, the traditions and the modernist approach to life that is so irrelevant.

None of which are things that I can approve of or accept. None of which would seem to fit with someone who follows the example and teaching of Jesus.

So why would a Christian want to have any association with the church?

If you believe each church can be characterized by the worst qualities that you've amalgamated from various denominations and individual parishes, maybe you should stop eating the paint chips in your house.

Or paint crisps, as your local dialect may call for.

Posts: 679 | From: Connectilando | Registered: Aug 2011  |  IP: Logged
The Midge
Shipmate
# 2398

 - Posted      Profile for The Midge   Author's homepage     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
bit of a tangent but...
I was under the impression that, on the whole, Australia used British English spelling, rather than US: am I mistaken?

(prompted by the use of "asshole" up thread - in the UK we have an arse, an ass being a domesticated beast of burden sometimes referred to as a donkey) [Cool]

Now that is a bloody big hole.

--------------------
Some days you are the fly.
On other days you are the windscreen.

Posts: 1085 | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338

 - Posted      Profile for L'organist   Author's homepage   Email L'organist   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
from Evensong
I'm a mongrel Australian.....not a true blue.

A tautonym, surely? [Biased]

--------------------
Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Yes. But it's all relative.

I've only been here 20 years and I was bicultural before I arrived. Now I'm tricultural! [Biased]

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826

 - Posted      Profile for LutheranChik   Author's homepage   Email LutheranChik   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
"The Church is a whore, but she's my mother." Wasn't it Augustine who said that?

--------------------
Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com

Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
"The Church is a whore, but she's my mother." Wasn't it Augustine who said that?

Neh. Gus had a whole different set of mommy issues.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Bullfrog.

Prophetic Amphibian
# 11014

 - Posted      Profile for Bullfrog.   Email Bullfrog.   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
I wonder how anyone with half a conscience can tolerate association with a modern nation-state.

--------------------
Some say that man is the root of all evil
Others say God's a drunkard for pain
Me, I believe that the Garden of Eden
Was burned to make way for a train. --Josh Ritter, Harrisburg

Posts: 7522 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

 - Posted      Profile for IngoB   Email IngoB   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If you wish to spiritualise Tertullian's phrase that is your affair.

I didn't.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Anglicans have dysfunctional power structures? Not at all! We are very wary of power, as is right and proper.

Oh, so they are not dysfunctional, they are being handicapped on purpose?

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Anglicans do not equate uniformity with truth.

I think what you intended to say there is that Anglicans cannot for the life of them agree on what is true.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It would be more helpful to discussion if you told me why you disagreed with my exegesis than just saying you disliked it.

I'm sorry, but I have already argued why your eisegesis is insufficient on scriptural grounds, and you basically have admitted my point. Then I told you why this explodes the logic of your comment, and by you silence I assume that either you acknowledge that or are too dumb to follow. At any rate, that's that then.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
1274 implies that you do have to be faithful.

... to go to heaven. Sure. A fair fraction of the people ending in hell though will have been Christians in this world.

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
In my neck of the woods, many children are baptised into my tradition and yours purely to get into schools. The families have no further interest in Christianity other than this. I hold these people are not Christians.

If one of these children later found faith to your exalted standards, would you re-baptise them?

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
If you wish to spiritualise Tertullian's phrase that is your affair.

I didn't.

Yes you did.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Anglicans have dysfunctional power structures? Not at all! We are very wary of power, as is right and proper.

Oh, so they are not dysfunctional, they are being handicapped on purpose?

Against top heaviness? Yes.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Anglicans do not equate uniformity with truth.

I think what you intended to say there is that Anglicans cannot for the life of them agree on what is true.

For a clever person, you lack philosophical finesse on notions of truth.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
It would be more helpful to discussion if you told me why you disagreed with my exegesis than just saying you disliked it.

I'm sorry, but I have already argued why your eisegesis is insufficient on scriptural grounds, and you basically have admitted my point. Then I told you why this explodes the logic of your comment, and by you silence I assume that either you acknowledge that or are too dumb to follow. At any rate, that's that then.

Rubbish. I said your "lord, lord" rebuttal to my "ask, seek, knock and receive" tempered it (both individually and as a church). I didn't say it dismissed it.

The ask knock seek is tempered by the lord, lord in that it is those that do the will of God that Jesus receives. It's still quite possible to receive the HS by asking, seeking, knocking.

You ignored my Romans 5 reference by saying it was one sided. You provided no other explanation for your disagreement with my analogy of circumcision to baptism.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
1274 implies that you do have to be faithful.

... to go to heaven. Sure. A fair fraction of the people ending in hell though will have been Christians in this world.

Not according to my understanding of the scriptures. Real Christians go to heaven.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:

quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
In my neck of the woods, many children are baptised into my tradition and yours purely to get into schools. The families have no further interest in Christianity other than this. I hold these people are not Christians.

If one of these children later found faith to your exalted standards, would you re-baptise them?
No need. The grace of baptism in the name of the F,S,HS and water is always efficacious. But you know that.

Developing the gifts of the HS received through baptism is a different matter however.

But you know that too.

There is a famous quote by Billy Sunday that goes:

“Going to church doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile.”

I actually disagree with that. If you go to church often enough and pray, things can't but help seep through. Lex orandi, lex credendi.

I would rejig it to say:

Being baptised doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile.”

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

 - Posted      Profile for Zach82     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
Oh please, Evensong. The Anglican Communion is a dog's breakfast at the moment, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Do spare us the embarrassment of arguing about that point with the Catholics.

--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Marvin the Martian

Interplanetary
# 4360

 - Posted      Profile for Marvin the Martian     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Real Christians go to heaven.

And No True Scotsmen go to Hell. [Roll Eyes]

--------------------
Hail Gallaxhar

Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003  |  IP: Logged
Patdys
Iron Wannabe
RooK-Annoyer
# 9397

 - Posted      Profile for Patdys     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I would rejig it to say:
Being baptised doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile.”

Evensong, this took me an awfully long time to understand. In some Christian traditions, as I understand it, it is considered that Baptism will make you a Christian.

This may not be your understanding, or indeed mine, but it is others.

--------------------
Marathon run. Next Dream. Australian this time.

Posts: 3511 | Registered: Apr 2005  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

 - Posted      Profile for Evensong   Author's homepage   Email Evensong   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Oh please, Evensong. The Anglican Communion is a dog's breakfast at the moment, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional. Do spare us the embarrassment of arguing about that point with the Catholics.

A seminal video for me as a kid was Gandhi (played by Ben Kingsley). My father (bless his departed soul) bought it when I was about ten and I played it over and over again.

When Gandhi was in discussions with the British imperial authorities and he was asking them to leave India, they said:

"If we left, chaos would ensue!"

Gandhi's response was:

"At least it will be our chaos ".

I see the Anglican Communion a bit like this. We "left" the mother Catholic church and developed structures and allowed certain freedoms within the provinces and diocese. We are still Episcopally governed but we are synodically (democratically) led.

Democracy is messy, but it is better than autocracy.

I'm proud of the Anglican church for this reason.

quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Real Christians go to heaven.

And No True Scotsmen go to Hell. [Roll Eyes]
Yes. A stupid thing to say on my part considering there is no universal agreement on what a Christian is.

Matthew 7:21 gives us a clue:

Matthew 7.21: ‘Not everyone who says to me, “Lord, Lord”, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only one who does the will of my Father in heaven.

The tricky bit ( of course ) is that defining God's will differs amongst Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by Patdys:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
I would rejig it to say:
Being baptised doesn’t make you a Christian any more than going to a garage makes you an automobile.”

Evensong, this took me an awfully long time to understand. In some Christian traditions, as I understand it, it is considered that Baptism will make you a Christian.

This may not be your understanding, or indeed mine, but it is others.

Yes indeed. I was just trying to point out why I believe it is a poor understanding.

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379

 - Posted      Profile for Belle Ringer   Email Belle Ringer   Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Bullfrog.:
I wonder how anyone with half a conscience can tolerate association with a modern nation-state.

We are stuck in nation-states because all land is owned. To get outside all nation-states you have to leave the planet.

We are not similarly stuck in institutional churches, God is outside them as well as inside them, you can leave their turf and yet thrive spiritually.

Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

 - Posted      Profile for LeRoc     Send new private message       Edit/delete post   Reply with quote 
quote:
Bullfrog.: I wonder how anyone with half a conscience can tolerate association with a modern nation-state.
Grudgingly.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged



Pages in this thread: 1  2 
 
Post new thread  Post a reply Close thread   Feature thread   Move thread   Delete thread Next oldest thread   Next newest thread
 - Printer-friendly view
Go to:

Contact us | Ship of Fools | Privacy statement

© Ship of Fools 2016

Powered by Infopop Corporation
UBB.classicTM 6.5.0

 
follow ship of fools on twitter
buy your ship of fools postcards
sip of fools mugs from your favourite nautical website
 
 
  ship of fools