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Source: (consider it) Thread: Reading for comprehension
South Coast Kevin
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It really ticks me off when people (here, or anywhere really) say things like 'read for comprehension, duh' or 'you obviously didn't read what I said'.

Get a grip, people - if someone's misunderstood you it might not be totally their fault. You know, you might not have expressed yourself marvellous clearly. In fact, there's probably some responsibility on both sides.

It's this post that has prompted the thread, but I don't mean to pick on Zach82. It's just something that has been annoying me recently. So here we go. Feeblest Hell thread in several weeks?

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orfeo

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# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Feeblest Hell thread in several weeks?

Clearly you haven't read the competition. Or if you have, you haven't comprehended it.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Feeblest Hell thread in several weeks?

Clearly you haven't read the competition. Or if you have, you haven't comprehended it.
True, it's not discussing reading the road rules for competition. Yet.

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
Feeblest Hell thread in several weeks?

No.

The driving and parking ones take that title easily.

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a theological scrapbook

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Clearly you haven't read the competition. Or if you have, you haven't comprehended it.

Ha ha, very good!

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Sioni Sais
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If anyone wants to respond to a post, even here, it's up to them to acquaint themselves with the post to which they are responding and the rest of the thread. It's astonishing how much better posts are, and how much better the debate is, when that simple principle is followed.

There will always be those who try to score cheap points by asking people to read for comprehension and asserting that they have been misquoted or misunderstood but this is a written medium and, it pains me to say this as a Hellhost, we are not to offend easily nor easily take offence.

At this point Erin would have suggested we put our big girl panties on, and got over it.

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
At this point Erin would have suggested we put our big girl panties on, and got over it.

Yeah, maybe so. It's just a frustration of mine that, both here and elsewhere, some people are very reluctant to acknowledge that a misunderstanding might be at least partly down to the way they expressed themselves. Simply saying 'read what I said' is just utterly unhelpful, IMO.

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iamchristianhearmeroar
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I'm with SCK on this.

Something that annoys me even more - and this doesn't happen that much on the Ship, but certainly elsewhere in Internetland - is when someone posts something like "Please read Isaiah chapters A to B" or "Please read what theologian X has to say about this in book Y".

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
At this point Erin would have suggested we put our big girl panties on, and got over it.

Yeah, maybe so. It's just a frustration of mine that, both here and elsewhere, some people are very reluctant to acknowledge that a misunderstanding might be at least partly down to the way they expressed themselves. Simply saying 'read what I said' is just utterly unhelpful, IMO.
To be fair, it is a fairly regular occurrence on here that somebody will try pretending another post was unclear, as a tacit admission that a good point was made and they don't have a reply of any substance.

[ 10. October 2013, 11:37: Message edited by: the giant cheeseburger ]

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If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?

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Evensong
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
At this point Erin would have suggested we put our big girl panties on, and got over it.

Yeah, maybe so. It's just a frustration of mine that, both here and elsewhere, some people are very reluctant to acknowledge that a misunderstanding might be at least partly down to the way they expressed themselves. Simply saying 'read what I said' is just utterly unhelpful, IMO.
Personally I'm amazed that we communicate as well as we do.

If you ask four different people what they thought a sermon was saying - or what its main point was, you will often get four quite different answers.

Even reading or hearing the exact same words is absolutely no guarantee that you will understand the intent of the original speaker or writer.

And that's because we interpret what we read and hear and see according to our previous experience and understanding. We have innate assumptions about everything that colors everything we read, see or hear from others or in the world.

"Read what I said" is indeed a silly thing to say when you take into account how fallible human communication really is.

Background is certainly important (as Sioni points out) but it's still quite easy to completely misunderstand the original speakers voice.

And that can be through no fault of the speaker or the hearer - that's just the nature of communication.

That's why we have four different gospels on the one man. And that's why we have so many different denominations in Christianity.

Here endeth the lesson on communication theory and hermeneutics.

[ 10. October 2013, 12:19: Message edited by: Evensong ]

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Sioni Sais
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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
I'm with SCK on this.

Something that annoys me even more - and this doesn't happen that much on the Ship, but certainly elsewhere in Internetland - is when someone posts something like "Please read Isaiah chapters A to B" or "Please read what theologian X has to say about this in book Y".

You have a point there: if all people want to do is quote and instruct you to read then that is plain lazy as well as being all too reminiscent of school and college. We don't come here to be lectured (not even by tetchy hosts) but to engage in debate. If they haven't the balls to comment to suit the subject for debate, WTF are they doing here?

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Dafyd
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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
It's this post that has prompted the thread, but I don't mean to pick on Zach82. It's just something that has been annoying me recently.

Zach82 is responding to Croesos. I've never seen any evidence that Croesos is interested in understanding what people he disagrees with are actually trying to say. At which point, one just has to call him on it as Zach82 did.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

And that's because we interpret what we read and hear and see according to our previous experience and understanding. We have innate assumptions about everything that colors everything we read, see or hear from others or in the world.

Very true. A few times I've had to cease engaging with particular posters because it doesn't matter what I say - they've already decided on what I meant . And that voice in their head will shout down any attempt at correction.
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Tubbs

Miss Congeniality
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:

And that's because we interpret what we read and hear and see according to our previous experience and understanding. We have innate assumptions about everything that colors everything we read, see or hear from others or in the world.

Very true. A few times I've had to cease engaging with particular posters because it doesn't matter what I say - they've already decided on what I meant . And that voice in their head will shout down any attempt at correction.
Or when they play the "yes but" game with people making prefectly valid points:

Q: Why have you joined a contemporary worship group when you hate that shit?

A: But they need me! But I don't like the songs the leader has choosen.

Q: If you don't like the songs, why are you still there?

A: But they need me! But I should only be expected to sing things that I like and agree with.

Q: This isn't a reasonable expectation, why would you think it is?

A: Oh let's not make this about me ... Let's talk about the wider leadership issues?

Q: If this isn't about you, then why is each and every thread you start about you then?!

A: ...


And breathe ....

Tubbs

[ 10. October 2013, 13:26: Message edited by: Tubbs ]

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goperryrevs
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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Zach82 is responding to Croesos. I've never seen any evidence that Croesos is interested in understanding what people he disagrees with are actually trying to say. At which point, one just has to call him on it as Zach82 did.

I have to say that's been my experience too. Croesos is very well read, very knowledgeable, and often posts fascinating links, but there are times when he seems to wilfully misinterpret what people have said, putting words in their mouths in the process (often with a sarcastic put-down), which can be incredibly frustrating. So I have a lot of sympathy with Zach in this instance.

That said, I also agree with SCK's general point. Communication is tricky at the best of times, and misunderstandings occur easily. Both sides need to have patience with each other where that happens, and take the time and effort to actually try to both communicate clearly, and listen clearly.

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mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
A few times I've had to cease engaging with particular posters because it doesn't matter what I say - they've already decided on what I meant . And that voice in their head will shout down any attempt at correction.

I know how you feel.

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Pre-cambrian
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quote:
Originally posted by goperryrevs:
quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
Zach82 is responding to Croesos. I've never seen any evidence that Croesos is interested in understanding what people he disagrees with are actually trying to say. At which point, one just has to call him on it as Zach82 did.

I have to say that's been my experience too. Croesos is very well read, very knowledgeable, and often posts fascinating links, but there are times when he seems to wilfully misinterpret what people have said, putting words in their mouths in the process (often with a sarcastic put-down), which can be incredibly frustrating. So I have a lot of sympathy with Zach in this instance.
What happens not infrequently is that someone posts a tendentious comment and they are then called on it. The first poster then either flatly denies the plain reading of the first post or contradicts it while claiming that his two posts actually say the same thing. Both of these approaches are forms of dishonesty.

Croesos is very good at skewering such attempts at evasion. It is not surprising the skewered squirmer gets upset.

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Zach82
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Bull pocky. Croesos accused me of saying something I didn't even vaguely imply. He didn't call me on shit.

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Pre-cambrian
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# 2055

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Sigh. I was responding to Dafyd's and goperryrevs's general attacks on Croesos rather than commenting on your particular little spat.

Not that I think you were the innocent, put-upon little flower that you would have us believe.

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"We cannot leave the appointment of Bishops to the Holy Ghost, because no one is confident that the Holy Ghost would understand what makes a good Church of England bishop."

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Zach82
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quote:
Originally posted by Pre-cambrian:
Sigh. I was responding to Dafyd's and goperryrevs's general attacks on Croesos rather than commenting on your particular little spat.

Not that I think you were the innocent, put-upon little flower that you would have us believe.

Does "innocent" have a definition in your mind besides "Not guilty of the charge?"

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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lilBuddha
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Interruption/
To the OP,

I am on the fence about this. SCK's example certainly happens. However, so does the case when the person being responded to truly hasn't read for comprehension. Or at least shows no sign of having done so.
/interruption
Sorry for stepping in, back to your slap fight.

[ 10. October 2013, 17:17: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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South Coast Kevin
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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
I am on the fence about this. SCK's example certainly happens. However, so does the case when the person being responded to truly hasn't read for comprehension. Or at least shows no sign of having done so.

I'm sure you're right! My moan, though, is that simply saying 'read for comprehension' isn't at all helpful. Either your verbal sparring partner is already arguing in less than good faith and being snarky back will just make things worse, or they've genuinely misunderstood you and might well have responded positively if you had found another way of expressing your point.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644

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quote:
Originally posted by Dafyd:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
It's this post that has prompted the thread, but I don't mean to pick on Zach82. It's just something that has been annoying me recently.

Zach82 is responding to Croesos. I've never seen any evidence that Croesos is interested in understanding what people he disagrees with are actually trying to say. At which point, one just has to call him on it as Zach82 did.
I would agree with that. Croesus often imposes his own interpretation on what others post. Sometimes it may be an honest misunderstanding. Sometimes I think he is just playing a game of gotcha. In any event, Croesus will maintain you meant what he says you meant for the rest of the thread. I don't know why. Perhaps, Croesus has a mental block that prevents him from seeing words can be read more than two ways. Perhaps, Croesus is just a pedantic jerk. Either way, the best practice is just to ignore him entirely. He is either incapable or refuses to argue in good faith.
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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Where as you are frequently unable to engage in a debate without being unpleasantly sarcastic - which doesn't add much to developing a shared understanding either.

I do wish posters in purg would post the majority of the time with an assumption of good faith on the part of the people they are conversing with.

It is often, though not in your case I grant you BA, that people are really unpleasant / passive aggressive because they refuse to use hell when really pissed off because they feel it is beneath them - so carry on wrangling in purg just making the atmosphere really toxic in the process.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
I do wish posters in purg would post the majority of the time with an assumption of good faith on the part of the people they are conversing with.

[Overused]

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Kelly Alves

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# 2522

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Preach, Doublethink.
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:


It is often, though not in your case I grant you BA, that people are really unpleasant / passive aggressive because they refuse to use hell when really pissed off because they feel it is beneath them - so carry on wrangling in purg just making the atmosphere really toxic in the process.

I will take a bombastic newbie flashing their feathers over a veteran shipmate pressing their butt cheeks against the 10C window any day. One is exasperating, the other is infuriating.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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pererin
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# 16956

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quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
or "Please read what theologian X has to say about this in book Y".

There is a place for that. Sometimes there is just too much information/argumentation to be fitted into a post, and someone's set it all out in a book (or a chapter of a book), and it seems silly to duplicate all their work anyway. Then "read this" is a reasonable reply, even if it will inevitably mean that people have to go to some effort and expense to get the level of detail they want on the topic they're asking about.

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
Where as you are frequently unable to engage in a debate without being unpleasantly sarcastic - which doesn't add much to developing a shared understanding either.

This is just "wit", like the moronic thread titles in Purg. [Biased]

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is often, though not in your case I grant you BA, that people are really unpleasant / passive aggressive because they refuse to use hell when really pissed off because they feel it is beneath them - so carry on wrangling in purg just making the atmosphere really toxic in the process.

So call them here for being passive-aggressive bastards.

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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lilBuddha
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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
or "Please read what theologian X has to say about this in book Y".

There is a place for that.
I disagree. I am to purchase a book/hunt it down in library because someone else has not the intellectual power to summarise?

quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:

I do wish posters in purg would post the majority of the time with an assumption of good faith on the part of the people they are conversing with.

But what fun is there in this?

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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It involves seeing the debate as an attempt to develop a shared understanding rather than a fight you are trying to win. Which is somewhat counter-cultural.

Isn't being counter-cultural supposed be fun ?

[ 10. October 2013, 19:43: Message edited by: Doublethink ]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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RuthW

liberal "peace first" hankie squeezer
# 13

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quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is often, though not in your case I grant you BA, that people are really unpleasant / passive aggressive because they refuse to use hell when really pissed off because they feel it is beneath them - so carry on wrangling in purg just making the atmosphere really toxic in the process.

So call them here for being passive-aggressive bastards.
Then they'll come down here, post a few times about how they don't "do Hell," mince about a little, and then go right back to being toxic in Purgatory. If they come down here at all.
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It involves seeing the debate as an attempt to develop a shared understanding rather than a fight you are trying to win. Which is somewhat counter-cultural.

Isn't being counter-cultural supposed to be fun ?

That shared understanding (or even the fight) needs to be fuelled by the arguments put forward by all parties, and I don't consider an instruction to consider the entire contents of some learned tome to help towards that.

Others may disagree, but I'd like us to deal with what goes on the page, or is at any rate closely referenced by it. Trying to move a discussion forward when people have to take a day or two out to study additional material dragged in to support a point of view, isn't really on.

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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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I tend to agree with that, summary with link to source for the more interested / obsessive reader seems more reasonable.

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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pererin
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# 16956

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
or "Please read what theologian X has to say about this in book Y".

There is a place for that.
I disagree. I am to purchase a book/hunt it down in library because someone else has not the intellectual power to summarise?
Some issues defy summarization beyond generalities (I'm thinking principally of questions of authorship of Biblical books, discussions of which are inevitably extremely cursory or extremely detailed, with little room in between). If someone isn't satisfied with the generalities, they are essentially asking for something far exceeding message board post in length. And if the relevant information/argumentation has been covered in a readily-available book, then it does them a service to mention it.

quote:
Originally posted by RuthW:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
It is often, though not in your case I grant you BA, that people are really unpleasant / passive aggressive because they refuse to use hell when really pissed off because they feel it is beneath them - so carry on wrangling in purg just making the atmosphere really toxic in the process.

So call them here for being passive-aggressive bastards.
Then they'll come down here, post a few times about how they don't "do Hell," mince about a little, and then go right back to being toxic in Purgatory. If they come down here at all.
Isn't there a button you can press so they can only see Hell until you're satisfied? Or am I just too mean? [Devil]

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
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# 3208

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I think the standard internet forum is not generally the best medium for discussions that require reading lengthy, scholarly tomes.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Perrin
I think Doublethink responded with the best response to your thought.

[ 10. October 2013, 20:21: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by pererin:
quote:
Originally posted by iamchristianhearmeroar:
or "Please read what theologian X has to say about this in book Y".

There is a place for that.
I disagree. I am to purchase a book/hunt it down in library because someone else has not the intellectual power to summarise?
Agree with lilBuddha. I've got a lot of things going in my life, and discussions on SOF are not the sorts of things I am so heavily invested in that I'm going to spend my scarce book-buying and/or book-reading resources just to understand the argument of some person who is too intellectually challenged to make their own arguments.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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Pyx_e

Quixotic Tilter
# 57

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
A few times I've had to cease engaging with particular posters because it doesn't matter what I say - they've already decided on what I meant . And that voice in their head will shout down any attempt at correction.

I know how you feel.
I'm sure you meant to say something else there.

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It is better to be Kind than right.

Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
A few times I've had to cease engaging with particular posters because it doesn't matter what I say - they've already decided on what I meant . And that voice in their head will shout down any attempt at correction.

I know how you feel.
I'm sure you meant to say something else there.
You'd like to think that.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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pererin
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# 16956

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quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Perrin
I think Doublethink responded with the best response to your thought.

Yes, he's totally right. I saw it afterwards. But this thread's now sounding disappointingly Stygian...

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

Posts: 446 | From: Llantrisant | Registered: Feb 2012  |  IP: Logged
Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984

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He ! He ! [Eek!]

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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell

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Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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Dude, chill.

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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

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RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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I think the term you were looking for there was "chillax". As was obvious from the context of the post, if you were reading for comprehension.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
He ! He ! [Eek!]

Honest mistake, especially if you look at the last word in your sig.

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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Nice recovery. And good for reading for comprehension too.

(You mean to say doublethink isn't a short bloke?)

[ 11. October 2013, 07:38: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
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# 14696

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Wonders what the devil is going on ....... are these Northern Hemisphere in-jokes?

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a theological scrapbook

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
He ! He ! [Eek!]

What's so funny then?

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
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# 14696

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btw, welcome back Mustard.

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a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
Wonders what the devil is going on

Hooves in most depictions.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
btw, welcome back Mustard.

False cognate by the way. Thanks.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Kelly Alves

Bunny with an axe
# 2522

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quote:
Originally posted by RooK:
I think the term you were looking for there was "chillax". As was obvious from the context of the post, if you were reading for comprehension.

Ever the fucking pedant.

--------------------
I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.

Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged



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