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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Isn't it time IngoB took up golf?
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
There is a difference, it seems to me, between dispensing with talking about feelings and dispensing with feelings.
Those of us who like a good intellectual sparring match risk moving from one to the other without noticing.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Not enough to wish him to change. And although I copped to it, I don't think my feelings about IngoB rise to the level of actual contempt. Regular bouts of exasperation is more like it.
You show contempt here on a regular basis. (And I still read your comment as sarcasm. And contempt.) Do you want all your opponents to change?
How about I pass off my contempt the same way you pass off yours?
[ 27. November 2013, 20:52: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Well then, I would say I agree with the second proposition but disagree with the first. In my view, finding wrongness in relation to an argument is the goal of serious debate, not finding wrongness in relation to a person.
Because if a person is in possession of a wrong argument, they can discard it in favour of the argument that was found to be right. But all that a wrong person can do is lose.
I take "you are wrong" at face value. I don't usually leap from "You are wrong" to "You are an inherently disordered person that cannot be right." Granted, IngoB can and does argue that way from time to time, but not usually.
Sorry, I need to come back to this.
You don't take this at 'face value'. That's my entire point. You take "you are wrong" to mean "your argument is wrong", but that's not what the words actually, literally say. The words "you are wrong", literally, are a statement about a person, not about a person's argument.
You might be one of those people who switches between the two phrases without any difficulty, but there is plenty of evidence out there from the field of psychology that the difference in terminology has an effect on people.
[ 27. November 2013, 21:06: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I'll keep that in mind, orfeo. I disagree with it, but I admit I don't have any more compelling an argument for that than the "commonplace" interpretation of an extremely commonplace phrase.
Certainly I've never taken anyone to mean that I was fundamentally disordered when they said I was wrong.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Not enough to wish him to change. And although I copped to it, I don't think my feelings about IngoB rise to the level of actual contempt. Regular bouts of exasperation is more like it.
You show contempt here on a regular basis. (And I still read your comment as sarcasm. And contempt.) Do you want all your opponents to change?
How about I pass off my contempt the same way you pass off yours?
Whatever floats your boat.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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W Hyatt
Shipmate
# 14250
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Iron sharpens iron. This place would be poorer without IngoB. Even if he is just sharpening his debating skills in order to take on the Jesuitical casuistries IRL.
![[Smile]](smile.gif) ....I theenk ..
Yes, I hope IngoB continues to participate. It has been a long while since we've heard from Johnny S or El Greco / §Andrew and I think this place is poorer without them, not only because of their controversial contributions, but equally because of the responses they provoked from everyone else.
[ 27. November 2013, 21:55: Message edited by: W Hyatt ]
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A new church and a new earth, with Spiritual Insights for Everyday Life.
Posts: 1565 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2008
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Not enough to wish him to change. And although I copped to it, I don't think my feelings about IngoB rise to the level of actual contempt. Regular bouts of exasperation is more like it.
You show contempt here on a regular basis. (And I still read your comment as sarcasm. And contempt.) Do you want all your opponents to change?
How about I pass off my contempt the same way you pass off yours?
Whatever floats your boat.
Don't write me off—I take you at your word that your habit of judging people and elaborating on their flaws is all harmless exasperation and not simple self-righteousness.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Habit? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Look at it this way—in response to me questioning your ridiculous expectations and the inherent contempt of your reasoning, you responded with questioning my usual behavior on the ship and waved away any question of your righteousness as harmless exasperation. You've judged my character and explained my moral failures many times in the past.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Here in Hell we offer rooms for rent at reasonable rates. We accept payment by cash, credit card or little pieces of your soul.
Now, is the gentleman paying for his lady-friend or should I split the bill?
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Wow. I hadn't realized that my digs on occasion of your Hell calls over the years had added up to a habit. I really hadn't. I'll take your word on that since the receiver of the wounds can count the scars.
Tell you what: I apologize for judging you on this and other occasions. Judgmentalism Is Bad. And as I said about IngoB it is best to let you be you. Pax.
ETA: ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) Talk about a timely crosspost!
[ 27. November 2013, 22:28: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Fair enough—turns out I can hold grudges from time to time. Sorry for springing that on you out of the blue.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
That's okay. It is something for me to watch for in my "habits".
ETA: No, orfeo, we won't need a room. The "make-up sex" wouldn't be fiery enough for that. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
[ 27. November 2013, 22:33: Message edited by: Lyda*Rose ]
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Well, around here we don't seem to mind if you just get it on in the lobby in full view of the other guests.
We even sell popcorn.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
He's an Evelyn Waugh-like figure giving hell to liberal (or any type) Protestants (on a site dominated by them ) and I enjoy the hell out of it
![[Yipee]](graemlins/spin.gif)
but that's just me
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
I might be overbearing and insensitive at times, but at least I try to argue in good faith.
Kof splutter choke. Damn it, I should know better than to be trying to drink something when reading your posts.
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
My dear old Irish mother often said that there is none so fervent as a Convert. I wonder if Squiggle is reading this.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif)
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
A person has to gush his feelings about God and salvation and post cookie recipes in heaven before he can simply discuss theology in a rational manner?
Were you born without a clue, or did you lose it somewhere along the way? The issue is not discussing theology in a rational manner. It's being an asshole while discussing theology, rational or otherwise. One can discuss theology in a rational manner without being an asshole. Unless one is IngoB, of course.
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Would you like him to nice it up?
No. We just want him to stop being a screaming fucking know-it-all condescending treating-people-as-a-means-to-his-own-ego-gratification-ends asshole.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Few people seem to particularly worry about driving me away from God, or about me getting used as a prop for some anti-Catholic and/or anti-conservative rant.
No, we know that's not likely to happen. False equivalence. Nice try, asshole.
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Not enough to wish him to change.
I do wish he would change, enough to treat other human beings as ends and not just as means. Call me a Kantian if it makes you feel better. Better a Kantian who treats human beings as people than a Thomist who uses them like things.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
He's an Evelyn Waugh-like figure giving hell to liberal (or any type) Protestants (on a site dominated by them ) and I enjoy the hell out of it
but that's just me
If you think liberal protestants dominate here you have very particular definitions of both liberal and protestant.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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comet
Snowball in Hell
# 10353
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by comet:
Would you like him to nice it up?
No. We just want him to stop being a screaming fucking know-it-all condescending treating-people-as-a-means-to-his-own-ego-gratification-ends asshole.
Project, much?
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Evil Dragon Lady, Breaker of Men's Constitutions
"It's hard to be religious when certain people are never incinerated by bolts of lightning.” -Calvin
Posts: 17024 | From: halfway between Seduction and Peril | Registered: Sep 2005
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Few people seem to particularly worry about driving me away from God, or about me getting used as a prop for some anti-Catholic and/or anti-conservative rant.
No, we know that's not likely to happen. False equivalence. Nice try, asshole.
The latter most definitely happens, with some frequency. So I take it that you are confident that I will always stay close to God, no matter what. Thanks for that, it is rather encouraging.
quote:
Originally posted by mouse thief:
I do wish he would change, enough to treat other human beings as ends and not just as means.
This (or at least Purg) is a "serious discussion forum". I assume that peoples' aim in joining is to discuss things, as is mine. If their main aim is to socialise, then I would suggest that they join a "serious socialising forum", Facebook or something. Of course you can then say that I treat people as a "means" for having a discussion. But the justification for that is simply that their end, as much as mine, should be compatible with that. I join a martial arts club to train MA with other people who want to train MA, a chess club to play chess with other people who want to play chess, and SoF to discuss matters related to religion with other people who want to discuss those matters. Maybe you join all these just to meet some people. Fine. You don't hear me complain about that. But what precisely is wrong with me being primarily interested in playing chess, not the people playing it, when I join a chess club? That I am interested in a subject more than in people does not mean that I'm abusing people, if we all meet of our own free will in a space dedicated to pursuing that subject.
Mind you, I am not opposed to meeting people through activities and shared interests. I don't think that SoF is particularly efficient for that though, because I distrust "virtual" friendships, and Shipmeets are limited.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mouse thief:
I do wish he would change, enough to treat other human beings as ends and not just as means.
This (or at least Purg) is a "serious discussion forum". I assume that peoples' aim in joining is to discuss things, as is mine. If their main aim is to socialise, then I would suggest that they join a "serious socialising forum", Facebook or something.
I'm going to join in with the accusations of false equivalence, I'm afraid! The options aren't only 'discuss things' or 'socialise'. There is also 'discuss things with consideration for the fact that I'm discussing with real people, not robots'.
Speaking for myself, my main aim on Ship of Fools is indeed to discuss things relating to Christianity. But because I'm a Christian, I want to do that in a way that edifies both myself and everyone else involved. I don't want to tear down, humiliate or ridicule. If you also don't want to do those things then, on the balance of evidence in this thread, it seems you should try to change your posting style.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Mind you, I am not opposed to meeting people through activities and shared interests. I don't think that SoF is particularly efficient for that though, because I distrust "virtual" friendships, and Shipmeets are limited.
Would you mind changing your current signature block, then, before the sheer intensity of the irony makes me pass out?
EDIT: Oh, and let me preserve for posterity, exactly what that signature currently says:
quote:
Currently looking for friends on Valve's Steam.
[ 28. November 2013, 08:53: Message edited by: orfeo ]
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Call me a Kantian if it makes you feel better.
You're a complete and utter Kant.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
More Purgatorial than Hellish ... but: we are all twats, we are all Kants. Some are bigger ones than others but even so ...
@Zach82 - to be fair, yes, I have been a prat and have trolled Calvinists at times. More recently, if you'd actually cared to read my posts properly, you'll have seen that I have cut Calvinists more slack than previously. I've over-egged things in the past.
What I haven't done, though, is cut you more slack.
Other Calvinists deserve to be cut more slack.
You don't.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mousethief:
Were you born without a clue, or did you lose it somewhere along the way? The issue is not discussing theology in a rational manner. It's being an asshole while discussing theology, rational or otherwise. One can discuss theology in a rational manner without being an asshole. Unless one is IngoB, of course.
You would be monumental enough to think that your argument here is everyone's argument.
You sure love dishing out scorn on other people, but if any goes the other way this is how you react. You are the last person on the ship with any standing to question another person's sincerity.
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
More Purgatorial than Hellish ... but: we are all twats, we are all Kants. Some are bigger ones than others but even so ...
@Zach82 - to be fair, yes, I have been a prat and have trolled Calvinists at times. More recently, if you'd actually cared to read my posts properly, you'll have seen that I have cut Calvinists more slack than previously. I've over-egged things in the past.
What I haven't done, though, is cut you more slack.
Other Calvinists deserve to be cut more slack.
You don't.
The fuck you do. That's just the gambit again: admit just enough wrongdoing to get away with carrying on with the same old behavior. By your own admission you "poke Calvinists with sticks." Either you're deluded or dishonest about your intentions. They the hell would "cutting Calvinists slack" show you to be anything but a twatting troll? They don't have to earn your good faith, you shit.
Here you are bragging what a twat you've been to me, like I have to earn a reasonable conversation with you. Fuck off to you too, Gamaliel.
[ 28. November 2013, 13:08: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
Some people here are doing an admirable job of deflecting this thread away from talking about IngoB.
That could be that you are taking some heat to stop things getting too hot for Ingo. Yeah, right.
Or, maybe you're all attention whores and can't stand it when someone else is in the limelight. You feel the need to jump up and down shouting "Look at me! I'm a jerk too!".
I won't name anyone, they don't deserve the attention.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Call me a Kantian if it makes you feel better.
You're a complete and utter Kant.
Foucault you.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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SeraphimSarov
Shipmate
# 4335
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
quote:
Originally posted by SeraphimSarov:
He's an Evelyn Waugh-like figure giving hell to liberal (or any type) Protestants (on a site dominated by them ) and I enjoy the hell out of it
but that's just me
If you think liberal protestants dominate here you have very particular definitions of both liberal and protestant.
Probably so. Your mileage may vary
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"For those who like that sort of thing, that is the sort of thing they like"
Posts: 2247 | From: Sacramento, California | Registered: Apr 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
You both have a Nietzsche you can't scratch.
Oooh, that's good.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Would you mind changing your current signature block, then, before the sheer intensity of the irony makes me pass out? EDIT: Oh, and let me preserve for posterity, exactly what that signature currently says: quote:
Currently looking for friends on Valve's Steam.
So? I'm a gamer, as in playing PC games. Valve Steam is game distribution service. To quote from the now defunct-by-Oblivion post linked originally from the sig:
quote:
Steam runs a community, and "friends" can play together on multiplayer games, trade items they have won within games, etc. For example, I right now have a bunch of discount codes for games that I do not plan on buying, but I could trade these against things my "friends" own that I have more interest in (as in a barter economy). Or another example, I have not tried Total War Rome II in multiplayer mode, but a "friend" may have that game too and we could easily match up via Steam for a co-op or competitive game.
The scare quotes are in the original.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
or convincing people of the rightness of your position isn't really your aim.
IngoB has previously answered calls like this one to say exactly that. I think he said something along the lines that he was here to debate and to test his ideas and justifications out. He certainly explicitly denied that he was here to win hearts and minds.
My question to him is still 'why?'.
Well, probably because Purgatory is a place for, you know, debate…
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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You sure love dishing out scorn on other people, but if any goes the other way this is how you react.
Best link I've been required to click on as a Host in a long time. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You sure love dishing out scorn on other people, but if any goes the other way this is how you react.
Best link I've been required to click on as a Host in a long time.
Helpful hint: Zach is the one in black.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
You sure love dishing out scorn on other people, but if any goes the other way this is how you react.
Yeah, this really proves... this proves... fuck-all, unless that you're an incoherent idiot incapable of actually putting words together to say what you mean.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Meh, it was good for a laugh. I don't see a need to wow the whole ship with articulate viciousness.
[ 29. November 2013, 03:45: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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RooK
1 of 6
# 1852
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Posted
Right. That's my job.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question to him is still 'why?'.
Well, probably because Purgatory is a place for, you know, debate…
And debate necessitates arrogance, personal put downs, ego boosts for the writer and the poster constantly sailing close to C3?
My question wasn't why be robust and thorough in debate/discussion - that's what purg is FOR.
My question was why does he sneeringly put others down in an attempt to boost his argument, when his arguments are excellent and well made anyway? Especially when he's arguing for his Church and the God of love, justice and mercy?
He hasn't even begun to answer this.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
I think he answered it in his first post Boogs: the snark is part of the fun.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
As far as discussing the issue rather than attacking the person goes, most of the time I have the impression that I take more than I dish out, and stick closer to the issue than my opponent. I think there is again a bit of selective blindness going on there among my critics. Obviously I could be really saintly about this, and forego dishing out entirely. But snark is part of the fun, really, and so I think I will stick with St Augustine there for now: "Lord, make me chaste – but not yet!"
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
The object of this thread's scorn appears to be active on the Ship for two reasons:
The first seems to be his insatiable craving for other peoples' admiration of his brand of "intellect". He loves to hear himself speak smart (or the blogging equivalent of that). Well, this sort of "I-am- smarter -than -all -of -you -and -please -admire- me -for- it " might go on some peoples’ nerves, I for one find this disgusting and immature, more smug than smart, and not always very "intelligent" either, but I think we can indulge him in that, as we would indulge a smart-assing child… after all, this is a Christian website ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
The second reason is that, as a convert, he is very eager to “test-fly” his new-found certitudes, and test flying always involves pushing the envelope. Which he does constantly. He needs the reassurance that his constructs are sound because none of his dim-witted shipmates comes close to debunking them. Which must be an extremely satisfying experience for him, but whether this contributes to “debate” is another question.
He stipulates his own rules for what he calls "debate" and then sneers at people for not adhering to that.
In short: What he claims to be a “debate” might be such in form, but not in content.
I certainly do not agree with most of his take on RC theology, but that is my personal problem; what I do object to more forcefully is his constant sneering at people.
The incessant putting-down. The arrogance of his tone. He just “listens” to others to find a fault in their argument (fault according to his own strict rules of ontology and, more generally, debate).
And as a RC I might add, his constant putting down of other RCs solidity of faith and practice is nauseating, misleading, and outright dangerous.
It is for this, and the disturbing arrogance of his style, that he deserves a tour down here in hell.
[ 29. November 2013, 07:53: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by k-mann:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My question to him is still 'why?'.
Well, probably because Purgatory is a place for, you know, debate…
And debate necessitates arrogance, personal put downs, ego boosts for the writer and the poster constantly sailing close to C3?
My question wasn't why be robust and thorough in debate/discussion - that's what purg is FOR.
My question was why does he sneeringly put others down in an attempt to boost his argument, when his arguments are excellent and well made anyway? Especially when he's arguing for his Church and the God of love, justice and mercy?
He hasn't even begun to answer this.
Because that (in my italics) is his style, and that is why he gets reprimanded by hosts and called to Hell. The arguments per se are fine and stand up well. The rhetoric however is abominable and the arguments would stand up better were it not for the arrogance displayed through his style.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
When you have arguments as good as his are coupled with his formidable debating skills, then merely articulating your reasoning might be seen by some as arrogance.
Knowing what you are talking about and correcting the erroneous assumptions of others may sometimes be seen - usually by the corrected - as smug, patronising and arrogant.
It isn't of course, it is a useful public service. Education usually costs but IngoB provides it free, which is nice. You should be grateful.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Knowing what you are talking about and correcting the erroneous assumptions of others may sometimes be seen - usually by the corrected - as smug, patronising and arrogant.
I agree with this, but there are two other options, ISTM: people going about 'correcting the erroneous assumptions of others' can in fact be 'smug, patronising and arrogant', and also there are people with a gift of being able to correct erroneous assumptions and arguments whilst affirming the humanity and building up the self-esteem of those they are correcting. The evidence of this thread is that IngoB is mostly not achieving the latter.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
Oh but what sort of education is it?
You can be a dick and a christian? Intellectual arguments matter above all else? Salvation is about correct theology?
Some people think otherwise.
As for being a useful public service: that all depends if you are RC and if you believe IngoB's particular take on theology is correct.
His style is a useful public service in terms of debate. As I said, he'd do well in ancient Greece.
Thankfully our God is bigger and better than that.
[ 29. November 2013, 09:43: Message edited by: Evensong ]
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Not for the first time, IngoB has made me think hard. If his written style in Purg does come across as arrogant, or heartless, or lacking in generosity to views which are not his own, that may be a simple misreading of his basic intentions in debate.
On the whole, it seems fairer to say that IngoB has convictions which he sticks up for; he fights his own corner hard, knowing that he is by no means the only one in it. He defends a traditional Catholic position on Holy Tradition with energy and skill and takes no prisoners. That's a hard thing to do, given the centre of gravity of views of regular contributors to this forum. A number of other traditional Catholics don't show up here so much any more. They've learned what to expect. IngoB plugs away. I kind of admire that, even when I disagree with him (which I do a lot).
He's also pretty good at spotting BS, logical errors and nonsequiturs etc. We might find that hard to take sometimes. But that also comes with the Purg territory of vigorous debate and the Ship's ethos of unrest. In that respect, he's a real asset.
Personally, I wish his style was more generous, but I guess he wishes that mine was less generous, more incisive? If so, he might have a point. I live with the combination of a hard head and a soft heart; it's easy enough to spot the fracture lines.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
Well said B62.
He stands his corner and defends his beliefs robustly in his own style. Others who fail to dent or who disagree with his beliefs sometimes revert to attacking his style instead. (See OP). From his perspective, I expect that amounts to "job's a good 'un".
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I must confess that I haven't followed IngoB's posts closely (mainly because he posts on subjects on which I'm not terribly interested) so perhaps I'm not qualified to comment on this. But I do wonder whether there's one of those irregular verb-type things going on here?
"Your views coincide with mine and I find your posts clear, direct, well-argued and an asset to the Ship."
"His views don't coincide with mine and I find his posts to be rude, aloof, haughty and he doesn't have a place on the Ship."
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
A number of other traditional Catholics don't show up here so much any more.
Which is a shame. I learnt alot from Trisagion.
Ingo is not a normal Catholic and as such needs to be taken with much salt.
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a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
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Eliab
Shipmate
# 9153
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
And debate necessitates arrogance, personal put downs, ego boosts for the writer and the poster constantly sailing close to C3?
I don't doubt that your perception is a sincere one, but I can't recognise IngoB in that.
He can be, and often is, tactless. And he can be snarky, but no more than many of us, and not beyond what I would guess to be the limits of this website's culture. But much more important than that is that IngoB is both a fair and a respectful debater.
He does not misrepresent his opponents*. He doesn't ever ignore or try to gloss over their best points. He engages sincerely and comprehensively with points made against him. He bounces a great deal of snark and insinuation made against him in order to focus on points under discussion, and (this is something I personally appreciate), he pays his opponents to compliment of assuming that they would rather have truth than comfort, and therefore would rather be told where they have gone wrong.
I've argued with IngoB a lot here – usually leading to increased understanding, I think. Sometimes I've felt that I was ahead on points, sometimes that he was, but I've never thought that my arguments were not getting fair consideration, or that he was responding to me with disrespect. On the contrary, I think it is an expression of respect that IngoB assumes that I am able to take robust criticism of my views.
(*he does sometimes use reductio ad absurdum to attack a stated position by setting out its unstated consequences or antecedents, but does not misrepresent what his opponents are expressly arguing)
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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"
Richard Dawkins
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![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
), among others.
