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Source: (consider it) Thread: Isn't it time IngoB took up golf?
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

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Originally posted by orpheo:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
(Why the hell I am back here I just don't know but I would suggest your insults could be greatly improved by a grammar lesson or two)
.
[Killing me] [Overused]

It's a fair cop, Chaps, it's a fair cop! [Hot and Hormonal]

Goodnight from here

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:

(Did Ingo just give Zach a kind of compliment-thingy?)


As compliments go, I don't think it's going to get him a second date.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Mousethief you bastard - you made me look up Bulverism. Please don't do it again.

Why, do you think you're likely to forget what it means?

--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
passer

Indigo
# 13329

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by passer:
Mousethief you bastard - you made me look up Bulverism. Please don't do it again.

Why, do you think you're likely to forget what it means?
I knew you'd say that, because that's the sort of thing you would say, I think.


Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

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IngoB, for goodness' sake would you please stop with the presumptions about people who disagree with you. From the 'How can I enjoy heaven...' Purgatory thread:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You clearly did not read at all what I said.

As an alternative, maybe EE did read your post but - shock - didn't agree with your argument. Might that at least be a possibility, both in this case and generally?

Or if you can't entertain that as an option, how about rephrasing your assertion as 'Let me try again, as I've not managed to get my point across'. Not fluffy, not sugar-coated, but respectful of EE's integrity.

--------------------
My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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mousethief

I don't think IngoB's purpose is victory at all costs. Sure, there's not much concern for the feelings and values of other debaters, unless they form part of a specific argument. But I don't think he misrepresents. He may misunderstand, but we can all do that.

And as I learned from RuthW, some measure of sarcasm directed at arguments is allowable here. It's just a play on 'your argument is stupid'. When he asserts as much he provides reasons and arguments.

My overall perspective as a Purg Host is that he nearly always stays within posting guidelines in accordance with the general unrest ethos. They do not require us to be nice.

And as he observed himself earlier, he's survived here while other traditional believers have hung up their boots (more or less). I guess his hard-nosed approach helps him in that.

Maybe he's right? There's a certain element of 'survival of the fittest' at work. You might not like what makes him the 'fittest', or certainly one of the 'fittest' holding unpopular traditional views, in this particular debating community, but maybe we got what we deserve? It's a lot easier to be a liberal here.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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quote:
I don't think IngoB's purpose is victory at all costs.
Maybe it's just the 4 classes of port, 4 glasses of Trader Joe's Merlot, and the beer* I just drank speaking, but if there is any doubt in your mind that your aren't authentically preaching "Christ crucified," what's the point of bothering to post in Purgatory at all? "For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth." Romans 1:16

IngoB believes that the Roman Catholic Faith is his salvation. Shouldn't he preach it with all his might, brooking not compromise ever?

To heck with those who put the feelings of bunnies over the Gospel of Christ. "So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth." Rev. 3:16. Even Jesus preached this way— "blessed is he, whosoever shall not be offended in me." Matt 11:6.

*I may be something of a lightweight.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And as a RC I might add, his constant putting down of other RCs solidity of faith and practice is nauseating, misleading, and outright dangerous.

I don't follow all of IngoB's posts or all of the threads he is on but I don't find him constantly putting down other Catholic's "solidity of faith and practice". I know he's called you out on a couple of things but you've also expressed your distate for some of the traditional and so-called "conservative" elements in the Church. He's happy to call a spade a spade but I don't think that amounts to the same thing as constantly putting things down.

Not that I necessarily agree with everything he writes and how he expresses it, but I think what gets under people's skin is that he is such a formidable opponent and I know that if he ever came after me *knocks on wood* I would have a tough time of it.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
And as he observed himself earlier, he's survived here while other traditional believers have hung up their boots (more or less). I guess his hard-nosed approach helps him in that.

Maybe he's right? There's a certain element of 'survival of the fittest' at work. You might not like what makes him the 'fittest', or certainly one of the 'fittest' holding unpopular traditional views, in this particular debating community, but maybe we got what we deserve? It's a lot easier to be a liberal here.

I liken being a devout, orthodox Catholic on the Ship to feeling like Mickey Mouse in The Sorcerer's Apprentice: at first it's fun playing with the wizard's hat and handling one or two brooms seems easy, but then more and more brooms start to appear and pretty soon you're overwhelmed. Likewise anytime a Catholic related thread appears it tends to attract a lot of adversarial attention and you will be needled endlessly if you adopt the traditional position. That, my fellow shipmates, can be lonely and exhausting. It's easy to drift away when you realize this, especially if you have other things going on in Real Life and/or have limited time on the Web. Eventually, the only mouse left is IngoB, swinging the ax (with gusto) against the army of brooms.

So, I think Barnabas is right and there is a certain element of "survival of the fittest" at work here. The Ship gets the IngoB it deserves.

--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
Originally posted by orpheo:
quote:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by MrsBeaky:
(Why the hell I am back here I just don't know but I would suggest your insults could be greatly improved by a grammar lesson or two)
.
[Killing me] [Overused]

It's a fair cop, Chaps, it's a fair cop! [Hot and Hormonal]

Goodnight from here

What the blazes did you do with your code and my name, woman?

--------------------
Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663

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Oh dear, sorry orfeo!

I have no excuse for the name....the only explanation I have is that I studied Classics at uni and "ph" is the default spelling for the "f" sound in Greek but it's a lame excuse
As for the bloody code, I don't know: I did what I always do, copy and pasted it into the "quote" option, that usually works.
I tell you our connection here is really, really frustrating, pages are often not fully loaded and sometimes you have to go and check that things have actually been posted.A dangerous way of operating in a place like Hell....

That said maybe I did something wrong but it pales into insignificance with the fact that I now have to cook a meal for some visitors in a kitchen with a working space of about half a square metre so have some compassion!

--------------------
"It is better to be kind than right."

http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com

Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:

IngoB believes that the Roman Catholic Faith is his salvation. Shouldn't he preach it with all his might, brooking not compromise ever?

Absolutely. But "at all costs" includes unethical means; "do evil that good may follow". That isn't the gospel of salvation. Repay evil with good is the gospel of salvation.

Anyway, I don't think IngoB is seeking to proselytise here, certainly not on the basis of his own statements. Rather he is always prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in him. And of course he is free to comment if he sees wishful thinking or delusions in the expressed hopes of others. That goes with the territory too.

It doesn't come across as "speaking the truth with love" of course. Not sure I'd accuse him of that. It would be a very tough kind of love if that were true.

--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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Yorick. SOL. I shouldn't as I abhor the Freudian maelstrom of obscenity. But SOL I did. A few years ago I would have been mortified to have laughed hysterically. The power we give words, eh?

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Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376

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I would think rather that IngoB believes that it is Christ who is his salvation.We come to Christ in many different ways,but the majority Christians come within the framework of the Catholic church.Few Catholics would be able to or even want to describe their faith with the exactitude of IngoB.
His explanations are painstaking and they are always answers to questions or remarks,some of which will have been framed in a less than charitable way.
The Catholic Church is a big tent and within that tent I would not be able,even with 10 times the length of experience of IngoB,nor would I want to, use the same words as he does.Nevertheless I admire the breadth and the depth of his knowledge. He has been accused of lacking in charity,but who amongst us knows what he is like in his dealing with others,who amongst us knows about his prayer life?
A previous poster said that the pope was an example of charity rather than bothering about
the jots and tittles of Catholicism.Without doubt the pope,likes IngoB ,does care about these things,but prefers to try in the first place to be an 'attractive witness' rather than a 'zealous
proselytizer'.After all,he is not always speaking on a serious debating forum.

Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815

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Picking up what Barnabas 62 says, perhaps Ingo B should turn not to golf, but rather to study the strong re-affirmation of the faith of the Catholic Church contained in Evangelii Gaudium.

[ 30. November 2013, 10:28: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008  |  IP: Logged
Rosa Winkel

Saint Anger round my neck
# 11424

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quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Guardian is a left-of-centre newspaper in the UK.

Supposedly.

So, only one taker so far?

--------------------
The Disability and Jesus "Locked out for Lent" project

Posts: 3271 | From: Wrocław | Registered: May 2006  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
IngoB, for goodness' sake would you please stop with the presumptions about people who disagree with you. From the 'How can I enjoy heaven...' Purgatory thread:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You clearly did not read at all what I said.

As an alternative, maybe EE did read your post but - shock - didn't agree with your argument. Might that at least be a possibility, both in this case and generally?
So you are going to follow me around on SoF now, ripping stuff out of context in an attempt to teach me rhetorical manners? EE was attacking a straw man, which simply had nothing to do with my actual argument. This could be because he had read my argument carefully, and malicious decided to employ a rhetorical ruse. This could be because he had read my argument carefully, but was too stupid to comprehend it. Or this could be because he did not read my argument at all, at best skim-reading for keywords. EE isn't a faint-hearted fluffy bunny either. A somewhat fairer observer at least would have noted that I was responding to EE calling my argument "absolutely nonsensical", an observation facilitated by the fact that I was quoting that very statement…

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Rather he is always prepared to give a reason for the hope that is in him. … It doesn't come across as "speaking the truth with love" of course.

There is a time and a season for everything. To me SoF is much more an occasion for the Areopagus sermon (Acts 17:16-34) than the Corinthian ones (1 Cor 9:19-23). Also I rarely speak of reasons for my hope here (Mt 7:6), though it is my hope that gives me reasons.

--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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As an intellectual exercise, debating something through with IngoB is worth the effort as it really makes me think, check my sources and clarify my arguments. It's only once in a blue moon that I try, because I'm not often involved in the same threads, but I know what I think about something when I've done it.

--------------------
Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
EE was attacking a straw man, which simply had nothing to do with my actual argument. This could be because he had read my argument carefully, and malicious decided to employ a rhetorical ruse. This could be because he had read my argument carefully, but was too stupid to comprehend it. Or this could be because he did not read my argument at all, at best skim-reading for keywords.

All those options are possible. But so are these - EE misread your argument because it pushed some particular buttons for him (so no blame on you either), causing him to respond in a heated way. Or your argument was genuinely unclear.

The thing that is so irking me about your postings is that you seem not to entertain the slightest possibility that there might be some fault on your side in the event of someone not agreeing with you or understanding what you've written.

Also, note that (according to your post; I've not gone back to check) EE said your argument was 'absolutely nonsensical', whereas you have just cast aspersions directly on EE himself (malicious[ly] decided to employ a rhetorical ruse... [or] was too stupid to comprehend [my argument]... [or] did not read my argument at all, at best skim-reading for keywords'). I gather you're not really seeing there's a difference between these two approaches but ISTM the majority view here is that there is a difference. An important one, I'd suggest.

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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.

Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011  |  IP: Logged
LeRoc

Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216

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I hang around Catholics a lot, including clergy, and I've always been impressed by their charity, empathy and ability to listen, even on topics on which they disagree with me. I'd almost say that these are very Catholic qualities.

--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)

Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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Maybe IngoB works so hard on his arguments, and is so personally invested in them, that he sees an attack on them as an attack on himself as a person. So he goes on to reply in kind (from his pov)?
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368

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If taking up golf would help IngoB to realise progressive revelation then I'm all for it.

--------------------
Love wins

Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If taking up golf would help IngoB to realise progressive revelation then I'm all for it.

It can help with the ultimate futility of existence as well.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
My overall perspective as a Purg Host is that he nearly always stays within posting guidelines in accordance with the general unrest ethos. They do not require us to be nice.

If the rules were all that mattered, this thread would never have been created. It's his thinking that the rules are all that matters that's the bedrock problem. He has a mind of gears and wheels, and human beings are not gears and wheels. At least the rest of us aren't.

quote:
Repay evil with good is the gospel of salvation.
Unless of course you're God, in which case repaying evil with infinite and everlasting evil is peachy-keen. "Do as I say, not as I do," as everyone's Dad tells them.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Anyway, I don't think IngoB is seeking to proselytise here,

True. He's doing the very best he can to drive people away from the Catholic Church. But at least he stays within the rules most of the time. That's what matters. Not human souls.

quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
There is a time and a season for everything. To me SoF is much more an occasion for the Areopagus sermon (Acts 17:16-34) than the Corinthian ones (1 Cor 9:19-23). Also I rarely speak of reasons for my hope here (Mt 7:6), though it is my hope that gives me reasons.

The SOF is not an occasion, it is a group of people. Perhaps this bizarre misunderstanding is your basic problem.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Anyway, I don't think IngoB is seeking to proselytise here,

True. He's doing the very best he can to drive people away from the Catholic Church. But at least he stays within the rules most of the time. That's what matters. Not human souls.

This is a mission Jesus set for you folks, yes? Helping the rest of us damned bastards?

--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
He has a mind of gears and wheels, and human beings are not gears and wheels. At least the rest of us aren't.

OK, I get it now. You are just a small cock in the large weal of Orthodoxy.

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The SOF is not an occasion, it is a group of people. Perhaps this bizarre misunderstanding is your basic problem.

Read the referenced scripture for comprehension.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Pancho
Shipmate
# 13533

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
He has a mind of gears and wheels, and human beings are not gears and wheels. At least the rest of us aren't.

OK, I get it now. You are just a small cock in the large weal of Orthodoxy.

He is comparing you to the fallen wizard Saruman from The Lord of the Rings.

He adapted a description of that wizard by the Ent Treebeard (from The Return of the King, I think):
quote:
‘He is plotting to become a Power. He has a mind of metal and wheels; and he does not care for growing things, as far as they serve him for the moment.’


--------------------
“But to what shall I compare this generation? It is like children sitting in the market places and calling to their playmates, ‘We piped to you, and you did not dance;
we wailed, and you did not mourn.’"

Posts: 1988 | From: Alta California | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696

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quote:
Originally posted by Rosa Winkel:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Guardian is a left-of-centre newspaper in the UK.

Supposedly.

So, only one taker so far?

Two

(but I skip most of the international politics - too much of it)

--------------------
a theological scrapbook

Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
OK, I get it now. You are just a small cock in the large weal of Orthodoxy.

Glad you admit that Orthodoxy is a weal. Not sure what either roosters or penes have to do with it, but you know best, as you keep telling us until we scream.

You don't answer the main point. You drive people away from your church and away from God.

Pancho, I think it's from The Two Towers.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
irish_lord99
Shipmate
# 16250

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
OK, I get it now. You are just a small cock in the large weal of Orthodoxy.

Glad you admit that Orthodoxy is a weal. Not sure what either roosters or penes have to do with it, but you know best, as you keep telling us until we scream.

You don't answer the main point. You drive people away from your church and away from God.

Pancho, I think it's from The Two Towers.

Orthodoxy is a hickey? What am I converting to? [Yipee]

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"There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics." - Mark Twain

Posts: 1169 | From: Maine, US | Registered: Feb 2011  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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Pretty defensive use of Mt 7:6 IngoB. Maybe if you were a bit more revealing about the hope which is in you, rather than sticking to the relative safety of argument and debate, things might be different.

I really did think you did a fair bit of the former, but am happy to be corrected. No intention to misrepresent you.

It's not that much of a risk to take the more open road. More human beings around here than dogs and pigs. Even in Hell.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by irish_lord99:
Orthodoxy is a hickey? What am I converting to? [Yipee]

Is that what "weal" means in Germany? Heck, over here it means "state of well-being: a general state of well-being, prosperity, and happiness."

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Read the referenced scripture for comprehension.

I don't take issue with the referenced scripture. I take issue with the way you treat people, which I believe is driven in part by the way you think about this place, as evidenced by the words in which you couched your reference to the scripture.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I don't think IngoB's purpose is victory at all costs. Sure, there's not much concern for the feelings and values of other debaters, unless they form part of a specific argument. But I don't think he misrepresents. He may misunderstand, but we can all do that.

I've been thinking about this. You're right. It's not that IngoB wants to win no matter the cost; it's that he wants to win no matter the HUMAN cost. He wants to win so badly that he doesn't give half a fuck about HOW he couches his writing, or whom he drives over to follow the precious argument. People don't exist. Only the argument.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RooK

1 of 6
# 1852

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Is that what "weal" means in Germany? Heck, over here it means "state of well-being: a general state of well-being, prosperity, and happiness."

Fellow pedant weighing in - and perhaps it speaks to my social proclivities - but my understanding of weal leans more towards the "welt" variant listed in the American-English dictionary.
Posts: 15274 | From: Portland, Oregon, USA, Earth | Registered: Nov 2001  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Honestly I'd never heard of that variant. I googled define:weal and that wasn't above the fold on any of the links on the first page.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208

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Merriam-Webster lists it.

I don't imagine that's what IngoB meant, though.

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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice

Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
You don't answer the main point. You drive people away from your church and away from God.

Frankly, I think much of that is just trash talk. From you, for example, it certainly is. Or are you seriously suggesting that you would consider the RCC without me, or that what I say is affecting your relationship with God deeply? Bollocks to that, and bollocks to most people who push this line here.

There are some people who are more believable on this. I don't think that I'm looking all that bad among them, on average. But more importantly, I really think that this is not on my head. I think if an adult decides to join a serious debate on religion, then they can be expected to deal with what they are getting into. And serious debate simply is not the same as preaching or even "witnessing" (a much overused term). Serious debate is about getting things clear, not attractive. It has its uses, but not generally as sales pitch to attract converts. If getting things analyzed and laid bare is destructive to your faith, then I recommend staying away from serious debate.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Pretty defensive use of Mt 7:6 IngoB. Maybe if you were a bit more revealing about the hope which is in you, rather than sticking to the relative safety of argument and debate, things might be different.

This is a public Internet forum, active participants come as anonymous avatars represented by the restrictive medium of text, and most of them are at least as much opposed to my faith as they share it.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
Curiosity killed ...

Ship's Mug
# 11770

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Oh, I'm also with Adeodatus when he says:
quote:
<snip> ... I find IngoB a very helpful contributor here.

IngoB gives us the teaching of the Catholic Church straight. No frills, no compromises, no knowing winks that allow us to think "Well yes, but in practice it's not like that". IngoB shows us exactly what a person would be signing up to were they to become a Roman Catholic.

It would be easy for some of us to think we should be Roman Catholics. Some of us like the liturgy. Some may like the culture. To some it may simply be a case of thinking "the grass is greener". IngoB's contributions help strip us of all such illusions. He reminds me that whereas I'm a slightly discontented Anglican, I'd be a bloody miserable Catholic once the honeymoon period was over.



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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat

Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006  |  IP: Logged
mousethief

Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953

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Missed the point again, IngoB. Five pages of people trying to explain to you what the problem is, and you still want to play the bull in the china shop, only now it's the poor, put-upon, slandered, WOE IS ME bull in the china shop. You poor, poor, dear.

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
orfeo

Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Serious debate is about getting things clear, not attractive.

The very fact that you seem to think achieving the first necessarily involves ignoring the second is the nub of why this thread exists.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Serious debate is about getting things clear, not attractive. It has its uses, but not generally as sales pitch to attract converts. If getting things analyzed and laid bare is destructive to your faith, then I recommend staying away from serious debate.

This is my take - I am fascinated by serious faith-based debate. I can't really add anything to it for many reasons (lack of knowledge plus dyslexia - which causes me to struggle with organising ideas for two). But this certainly doesn't mean I don't understand the concepts or can't wrestle with them. I can and do.

What I do have is a lot of life experience and first hand experience of practicing my faith at home and abroad. And, sometimes, this can add something to a discussion.

When reading discussions aboard Ship I feel sorry when people are put off posting by personal attacks (see above) because it stifles the very debate I'm wanting to 'watch' and occasionally chip in with a question. As it causes reactions in kind then spirals down into a slanging match.

I did wonder, IngoB, If you do this because you work so hard on your arguments, and are so personally invested in them, that you see an attack on them as an attack on yourself as a person. So you goes on to reply in kind (from your pov)?

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110

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IngoB

If we have profound convictions and a living hope, does it really matter if people are opposed to them?

I appreciate the dangers in a public forum of what one might call "overexposure" but surely it's just a matter of degree, as well as personal choice? Making all the usual allowances for role playing and mischief (and self delusion) something of who we are normally comes across in these exchanges. I think we have some responsibility for the sort of cyber persona we create. The problem about the "desiccated calculating machine" impression is that it detracts from contributions. Maybe that's unfair? Maybe it should just be about the quality of argument? I'm not sure I'd be here myself if this forum didn't work as exchanges between human beings, rather than - say - some kind of chess competition to see who makes the best moves.

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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?

Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091

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quote:
Originally posted by IngoB
I think if an adult decides to join a serious debate on religion, then they can be expected to deal with what they are getting into. And serious debate simply is not the same as preaching or even "witnessing" (a much overused term). Serious debate is about getting things clear, not attractive. It has its uses, but not generally as sales pitch to attract converts. If getting things analyzed and laid bare is destructive to your faith, then I recommend staying away from serious debate.

It's rather strange that you market yourself as a serious debater, and yet you become really quite emotional (and often irrational) about views with which you disagree. Here are some examples:

Here: "That is, of course, bullshit."

Here: "But this idea that one can sit on a pile of evidence from scripture and tradition, refuse to think about it, and feel all holy about it - that's just feeble-minded bullshit."

Here: "Bullshit. And no, I do not need to argue that. You assert, I assert back."

Here is an example of a dismissive straw man argument supported by an insulting and childish analogy: "Of course, everything is acceptable as long as it is harmonious. We are all friends who live and let live. What is the peace of Christ but the blanket acceptance of whatever anybody wishes to consider as Christian?

Well, I for one do not welcome our new Overlord Humpty Dumpty. From such eggs serpents spawn."

Here you are not slow to mock what you clearly don't understand:

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm quite taken be the notion that in the end the "all in all" presence of God will be heaven for some, hell for others.

I find this quite strange. It is rather obvious that 1) this notion is weird, since nobody can come up with a mechanism for it that passes the laugh test, and 2) even if it were somehow the case, it would change absolutely nothing concerning the apparent "moral dilemma" that the loving God tortures some people eternally. This is nothing but "auto-sophistry", a way to bullshit yourself into believing that you have solved a serious problem, so that it can be glossed over and tucked away safely in some corner of the mind, when in fact not even a hint of a solution has been offered.
Using phrases like "it is rather obvious..." to push your own personal opinions about a matter of debate concerning the nature of the afterlife, is not really an argument one would expect from a serious debater. And to think that the argument you dismiss as 'bullshit' has been put many times with considerable explanation, but because you happen not to understand it and therefore agree with it, then it's dismissed with a superciliousness and scorn that belies any claim to be engaging in serious adult debate.

And then finally you demolish your own claim to engage in serious debate, by admitting that it is all ultimately about submission to authority, which lies beyond the investigation of reason:

quote:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
The only "circularity breaker" is logic and evidence (or possibly a profound experience, which would only have authority for those for whom it feels real). Appealing to authority while denying those elements cannot possibly be anything other than circular.

You are trivially wrong. Anything that I can access by logic and evidence I do not need to have faith about. You can use logic and evidence to cross-check claims of faith against other claims (say scientific ones). You can use logic and evidence to test the internal coherence of a set of faith claims. But when you are done with that, then any sophisticated faith system (as found in all major religions) is still standing basically untouched. And there's nothing more that you can do about that. You can only choose to believe it, or not. And whether explicitly or implicitly, any positive choice assigns authority to somebody or something by virtue of having chosen to believe. This is simple inescapable, and entirely independent from whatever content your faith may have.
I could go on...

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If taking up golf would help IngoB to realise progressive revelation then I'm all for it.

It can help with the ultimate futility of existence as well.
Tapping a little spherical object around until it drops down a hole is more likely to trigger the absolute futility of it all in some of us.
-----------------------------------------

I watch these debates on cathlicks v proddies , I've seen the same rift cause tension even in our little, out of the way local churches .

In a few years time it will be 500 years since the Reformation . Yes it was bloody, yes it was bitter , yet the feelings that left in it's wake are as if it happened yesterday.
European Christendom seems trapped in the moment , like it's in a permanent state of PTSD since the first protestations of 1517 . If it hasn't recovered by now one must assume it never will.

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Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Boogie

Boogie on down!
# 13538

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rolyn - I started this thread and it had NOTHING to do with the fact that IngoB is a Catholic.

I attend a Catholic prayer group, Lent studies and Advent studies. I have always said I'd become a Catholic if it weren't for the priests and the pope [Biased]

Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008  |  IP: Logged
Firenze

Ordinary decent pagan
# 619

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If taking up golf would help IngoB to realise progressive revelation then I'm all for it.

It can help with the ultimate futility of existence as well.
Tapping a little spherical object around until it drops down a hole is more likely to trigger the absolute futility of it all in some of us.
That's what I meant, dearie.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Five pages of people trying to explain to you what the problem is, and you still want to play the bull in the china shop, only now it's the poor, put-upon, slandered, WOE IS ME bull in the china shop. You poor, poor, dear.

You performance on this thread provides a good example of what I'm talking about . I've tried to engage with you particularly on this thread, and at a lower aggression level than you display. But there is no pleasing you unless and until it is an unconditional agreement with (or should I say surrender to?) your opinions and judgements. That's not going to happen though. And so you will just carry on and on.

I certainly do not cry "woe is me" excessively, if at all during normal operations. I know well that I am a "bull", so if I get attacked, I generally shift weight and simply charge that way. But here the myth of my exceptional badness is precisely the topic, so I do discuss it.

quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
I did wonder, IngoB, If you do this because you work so hard on your arguments, and are so personally invested in them, that you see an attack on them as an attack on yourself as a person. So you goes on to reply in kind (from your pov)?

Not really. I see two separate issue in this. On one hand, there is rhetoric. There is a certain joy in using it, since it is a verbal skill. Practically all the frequent writers use it to some degree, and when two of them cross swords it tends to become part of their game. I don't think that that is terribly evil as such (which is not say that it is "good"). But the problem is that it is quite difficult to switch between different argumentation modes, and if you've just finished writing some zesty counter-rhetoric then the next poster to be answered might just get a load of that, too, even if that's not appropriate.

On the other hand, I think most of my supposedly personal insults boil down to to some exchange like this: "I think X is evil / wrong for the following reasons: ..." "But I love X / X is my way to God. So you must be saying that I'm evil / wrong." "Well, as far as X is concerned, that remains evil / wrong also for you, no matter how you may feel or think about it." "You are heartless machine and insult me deeply." "Not really. My reasons were general. Do you have an argument against them?" "Hah, and you just ignore the pain of others and must change your horrible calculating ways." "I'm really just trying to discuss X here, as such." "Your just don't care about people. Swine." "…"

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
If we have profound convictions and a living hope, does it really matter if people are opposed to them?

Well, no, and indeed it does not really matter to me what people here think about my profound convictions and living hope. It does not follow at all that I need to share intimate details of my faith life on the internet, as per my previous scripture quote. I am quite comfortable with my naked body, and not particularly concerned with the question how others may think about it. That does not mean that I will run around naked in public all the time.

quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
I'm not sure I'd be here myself if this forum didn't work as exchanges between human beings, rather than - say - some kind of chess competition to see who makes the best moves.

But I have not really told you or indeed anybody else here how they should be enjoying SoF. Upon being challenged, I have stated what I want and get out of this place, and why I think that is legitimate. It's not like I am calling people to Hell for a lack of "desiccated calculation". No, people want me to follow their preferences. But I will not, beyond obeying H&A rules. That's all.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Here: "That is, of course, bullshit."

Ripped out of context, the next sentence explains the judgement.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Here: "But this idea that one can sit on a pile of evidence from scripture and tradition, refuse to think about it, and feel all holy about it - that's just feeble-minded bullshit."

Ripped out of context, the rational way of dealing with disagreements was laid out in the previous two sentences. (O course, the statement as such is perfectly fine and I happily stand by it.)

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Here: "Bullshit. And no, I do not need to argue that. You assert, I assert back."

A perfectly fine statement. Assertions indeed can be dealt with by counter-assertion. Only argument requires counter-argument. The context of course was a prior pure assertion.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Here is an example of a dismissive straw man argument supported by an insulting and childish analogy: "Of course, everything is acceptable as long as it is harmonious. We are all friends who live and let live. What is the peace of Christ but the blanket acceptance of whatever anybody wishes to consider as Christian? Well, I for one do not welcome our new Overlord Humpty Dumpty. From such eggs serpents spawn."

Ripped out of context. This follows a statement by orfeo, which was answered by me, and the "Humpty-Dumpty" theme was established there by argument. SCK then quoted both orfeo and me in his response, making his contribution part of this discourse. In my response I cut out this prior history, to avoid lengthy multi-quotes, and just quoted SCK himself. But my response has to be seen in that argument flow, not simply as answer to the post just prior.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Here you are not slow to mock what you clearly don't understand: <snip attack on Barnabas62 liking "river of fire" ideas>

Ripped out of context. I had discussed my problems with this idea in the thread already, which Barnabas62 simply had ignored - and I explicitly linked to the relevant post just below the quoted bit. And I then went on to add further arguments to that in the rest of the post.

quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And then finally you demolish your own claim to engage in serious debate, by admitting that it is all ultimately about submission to authority, which lies beyond the investigation of reason:

Or maybe you have simply not understood how all this works. Here's a bit of Aquinas for you:
quote:
Hence Sacred Scripture, since it has no science above itself, can dispute with one who denies its principles only if the opponent admits some at least of the truths obtained through divine revelation; thus we can argue with heretics from texts in Holy Writ, and against those who deny one article of faith, we can argue from another. If our opponent believes nothing of divine revelation, there is no longer any means of proving the articles of faith by reasoning, but only of answering his objections — if he has any — against faith. Since faith rests upon infallible truth, and since the contrary of a truth can never be demonstrated, it is clear that the arguments brought against faith cannot be demonstrations, but are difficulties that can be answered.
Now, EE, you hardly manage to write a post without claiming that this or that is complete nonsense, that something else is perfectly obvious, that a commonly held opinion is morally insane, that you do no need to pay attention to the opinions of another poster, that some poster's comments provide merely light amusement, that some argument does not allow intelligence, that somebody has not read the thread, that somebody is misquoting the bible, that somebody is attacking a straw man, that someone should have asked a different question, that something is a lie, that somebody's belief is a figment of their imagination, etc.

In case you wonder, I compiled the above from your posts on only the first two pages of the current thread about hell in Purg. You are in no position to make big noises here.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004  |  IP: Logged
rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
That's what I meant, dearie.

* Ching * The penny's dropped .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011  |  IP: Logged
Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866

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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
...I did wonder, IngoB, If you do this because you work so hard on your arguments, and are so personally invested in them, that you see an attack on them as an attack on yourself as a person. So you goes on to reply in kind (from your pov)?

I think as long as people realize that IngoB is not any kind of authority on the Roman Catholic faith, then there is no reason for them to get upset with him. And he is perfectly free, as far as I'm concerned, to carry on posting in his customary style, and I'll just carry on ignoring him. [Razz]
Posts: 335 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2009  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
If taking up golf would help IngoB to realise progressive revelation then I'm all for it.

Progressive revelation Martin? I never had you down as a Calvinist.

As Catholics and Orthodox (and some protestants) don't go in for progressive revelation I wouldn't expect IngoB to do either.

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333

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Unhellish tangent/
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
l think as long as people realize that IngoB is not any kind of authority

No one should be viewed as an authority on anything. Not unquestioned. /Unhellish tangent

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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou

Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008  |  IP: Logged



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