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Source: (consider it) Thread: Religious Discrimination
mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Net Spinster:
However in Europe and the Americas I suspect discrimination against Christians (or Jews or Muslims or Hindus or atheists) is most likely from other Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
There's a whole world out there you know. Most people don't live in Europe or the Americas.

Indeed, there's Saudi Arabia to think about as well. Didn't you spare a thought for the Saudis? Oh, wait....

[ 15. October 2013, 07:51: Message edited by: mdijon ]

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Dinghy Sailor

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Actually, given that most people in northern Europe and America are not Christian or are post-Christian (pick your descriptor), I suspect that most of the discrimination against Christians, Muslims, Hindus and whoever else comes from non-Christians.

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mdijon
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Most Americans describe themselves as Christians

In Europe there is the complexity of more people describing themselves as Christian than believe in God.

I suspect that in much of Europe the very-keen believer is something of an oddity, in the same way that the very-keen atheist is a bit of an oddity. Hence neither groups can understand why the other feels persecuted.

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


Christians can avoid calling attention to their faith; women cannot hide their gender, at least not for long.


Meanwhile, though, I recommend that Christians still occupying space above rather than below the grass might want to toughen up over hearing the odd rude joke or ridicule, and avoid characterizing every life disappointment as "persecution." This is the world: deal.

How would this post have gone down if it had suggested that gay people are capable of hiding their sexuality, and that they should toughen up over hearing themselves described as fags or dykes in the workplace? That's just a "life disappointment"?

It would (rightly) have been shot down. Why do different rules apply to religious minorities?

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Actually, given that most people in northern Europe and America are not Christian or are post-Christian (pick your descriptor), I suspect that most of the discrimination against Christians, Muslims, Hindus and whoever else comes from non-Christians.

quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Most Americans describe themselves as Christians

In Europe there is the complexity of more people describing themselves as Christian than believe in God.

Also, most of the male residents of Scotland aren't really Scotsmen! [Roll Eyes]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


Christians can avoid calling attention to their faith; women cannot hide their gender, at least not for long.


Meanwhile, though, I recommend that Christians still occupying space above rather than below the grass might want to toughen up over hearing the odd rude joke or ridicule, and avoid characterizing every life disappointment as "persecution." This is the world: deal.

How would this post have gone down if it had suggested that gay people are capable of hiding their sexuality, and that they should toughen up over hearing themselves described as fags or dykes in the workplace? That's just a "life disappointment"?

It would (rightly) have been shot down. Why do different rules apply to religious minorities?

Because religion is a choice and sexuality is not? It's a bullshit analogy.

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no prophet's flag is set so...

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Isn't Saudi Arabia the current regime which shows without a doubt that western countries aren't interested in human rights? There are a series of countries just like it, present and past. We support the Saudis, ergo we support religious discrimination. But they have oil and we have investments. That makes all the difference.

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LeRoc

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I do think there is a difference between jokes about religion and racist/sexist/homophobic jokes, although I can't quite put my finger on it. I don't have a problem with most jokes about religion, and I often find them quite funny. But I hate racist/sexist/homophobic jokes.

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I do think there is a difference between jokes about religion and racist/sexist/homophobic jokes, although I can't quite put my finger on it. I don't have a problem with most jokes about religion, and I often find them quite funny. But I hate racist/sexist/homophobic jokes.

Good comedy usually relies on "punching up", or making fun of someone higher in the social hierarchy than the comic and/or his audience. "Punching down", or making fun of someone lower in the social hierarchy just comes off as mean-spirited. Religion is given a privileged place in our society, so jokes about it are almost always "punching up". Racist, sexist, and homophobic jokes are almost always "punching down". That may be part of the reason for your perception of difference.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Crœsos: Good comedy usually relies on "punching up", or making fun of someone higher in the social hierarchy than the comic and/or his audience. "Punching down", or making fun of someone lower in the social hierarchy just comes off as mean-spirited. Religion is given a privileged place in our society, so jokes about it are almost always "punching up". Racist, sexist, and homophobic jokes are almost always "punching down". That may be part of the reason for your perception of difference.
Good one, that might be it. Some people on this thread have commented about religious jokes that they found offensive. It would be good to have an idea or an example of what kind of jokes these might be.

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
Why do different rules apply to religious minorities?

Because, as already noted, religious affiliation and observance, unlike racial or sexual identities, are (except in cases of “conversion-by-sword”) voluntary and chosen.

So far as we know, gay people are born gay. They can’t be “persuaded” or “converted” into straightness. Males are born male, and females female, and you can cajole, threaten, coerce, or persuade until blue-faced, and (short of multiple complex surgeries), they will persist in being male or female. People arrive into the world with genetically-selected skin color, hair texture, and eye-fold with no control over these.

Nobody is born Christian, Muslim, or Jewish, at least in terms of actual belief (one has to have developed language and thought processes for this). People may be born to parents who self-identify as one of these; they may be born into a culture which identifies with Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist or atheist, etc. values. That said, significant numbers of people change from no belief to a belief-set, from one belief-set to a different one, or from a belief-set to no belief. Many people go through this process more than once.

So ultimately, people choose how, and whether, and to what degree, to identify with or to practice a religion. Those who choose to openly practice Christianity in environments actively hostile to that faith are therefore also choosing to run the associated risks.

Depending on your PoV, resistance to oppression / advocacy for freedom of conscience may look, from the outside, admirable or foolhardy. Either way, though, in matters of belief (as opposed to gender, homosexuality, race, etc.), it's a risk which results from choice. I wish more people would stop and reflect, when they hear a rude joke about a group they elect to identify with, that they share some small responsibility for any discomfort they experience, since it’s the result of choice.

There’s a substantial difference between thinking, “Well, yeah, this crap goes with the territory I’ve moved into,” rather than “Those assholes are dissing my religion and I’m gonna make ’em change their ways!” Where in Jesus’s comments which begin, “Blessed are you when people revile you” (Matt. 5:11 &ff) does he advise his followers to tell revilers they’re wrong, or to protest or argue, or to mount efforts to shut them up? Where does he suggest inviting or provoking revilers? That some (by no means all) Christians do in fact protest, argue, provoke, etc. is, alas, also part of the territory into which adherents of any widespread cause voluntarily move. Nobody’s cornered the market on assholes.

While I personally support both freedom of and freedom from religion, many places in the world deny this freedom to their populations, in whole or in part. Resistance to such oppression and advocacy for change take courage, persistence, time, and numbers. Success is not guaranteed; such efforts often fail and may be met with brutality.

Here’s where (some of) the rubber hits (part of )the road, though: both Islam and Christianity actively seek converts (I'm not aware of other traditions which do this). The act of seeking converts, in both cases (AFAIK) is based on the teaching that each tradition offers the One Truth. It’s a kind of Islamic or Christian (depending on the tradition under discussion) Exceptionalism, pretty similar to American Exceptionalism except that it applies to two different sets of religious traditions/practices/beliefs instead of to a large, wealthy, powerful nation.

For me, this exceptionalism taints some, perhaps many, claims of persecution or discrimination by Christian adherents (though this depends in part on the contexts in which such claims arise).

I don’t doubt that individuals suffer and even die as a result of holding to a particular religious tradition. What I am often driven to doubt, though, is the extent to which claimants desire, not freedom of conscience for themselves and fellow-citizens, but the freedom they think their brand of exceptionalism gives them to proselytize and/or impose their conscience upon others.

Lamb Chopped's situation described above is a case of true discrimination. There's no reason her husband's profession would have come up in that academic context; she didn't reveal it; she had no reason to suppose anyone would hold her accountable for a vocational choice made not by her but her husband, or that she'd be accused of Christian extremism she doesn't subscribe to. In short, she was in no way responsible for the undeserved ill-treatment and potential discrimination she suffered.

Croesos' objection about celebrating Mass in Saudi Arabia is a different situation. First, Catholics in Saudi Arabia surely already know they're in a hostile environment. They're faced with choices: 1. Don't hold Mass. 2. Hold Mass secretly. 3. Hold Mass openly.

If a group of Saudi Catholics decide they're willing to run the risk of holding Mass while trying to avoid the consequences, they'll choose Door # 2, and take precautions. They will not (or not always) hold Mass on Sunday mornings. They will vary the locations at which they hold Mass. They'll develop a staggered or random rota of voluntary "stay-aways" from their group so it's not always the same bunch of license plates parked in members' driveways, etc. They'll learn how to ditch a tail. They'll check members' houses for electronic bugs. They'll hold Mass in the kitchen with the water running. They'll keep their mouths shut about religion outside the group. Above all, though, they will fully and accurately inform themselves about the consequences they face when caught, will keep in mind the risks they are choosing to run each time they meet, and will plan ahead what they'll do when caught.

If they don't like the consequences or their odds, they'll select Door # 1: don't hold Mass. If they select Door # 3, we can all hope they're striking a blow for freedom of conscience.

[ 15. October 2013, 18:54: Message edited by: Porridge ]

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


Christians can avoid calling attention to their faith; women cannot hide their gender, at least not for long.


Meanwhile, though, I recommend that Christians still occupying space above rather than below the grass might want to toughen up over hearing the odd rude joke or ridicule, and avoid characterizing every life disappointment as "persecution." This is the world: deal.

How would this post have gone down if it had suggested that gay people are capable of hiding their sexuality, and that they should toughen up over hearing themselves described as fags or dykes in the workplace? That's just a "life disappointment"?

It would (rightly) have been shot down. Why do different rules apply to religious minorities?

Because religion is a choice and sexuality is not? It's a bullshit analogy.
Well that's at least debateable. But my friend who is actually a Christian just this week got told to "fuck off you fucking Muslim" in a cornershop.

Obviously his fault and not worthy of protection. He should just deal with it. In fact he should just move back to a Muslim country. [Roll Eyes]

What's more Porridge seems to be suggesting that if you can keep quiet about whatever people are persecuting you for, you should, to avoid rocking the boat. It was of course this "don't ask don't tell" that led to genuine persecution for minorities for years.

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
]Well that's at least debateable. But my friend who is actually a Christian just this week got told to "fuck off you fucking Muslim" in a cornershop.

In other words racism can be the actual reason for some apparently anti-religious sentiment. News at 11. And there is nothing your Christian friend can do about the racism.

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
[What's more Porridge seems to be suggesting that if you can keep quiet about whatever people are persecuting you for, you should, to avoid rocking the boat. It was of course this "don't ask don't tell" that led to genuine persecution for minorities for years.

No. I am suggesting that people practicing a faith in a hostile environment* should carefully consider the risks they have chosen to run, and act and speak accordingly.

IOW, if you're truly willing to be a martyr to your cause (and those who love and depend on you are in agreement), go right ahead and sacrifice yourself. Personally, I suspect much more positive change gets accomplished by the living who continue to work for that, but that's just me. If, on the other hand, you wish to practice your faith in a hostile environment and also remain at large and unharassed, exercise appropriate discretion.

That's quite different from being hassled about something as obvious as gender or skin color which you can neither change nor hide and about which you never had any choice.

* That is, in an environment where there's actual persecution / discrimination, not an environment in which you've elected to take deep personal offense every time someone takes your god's name in vain.

As to your Christian friend, he obviously wasn't being hassled because of his religion. I'm guessing he "looks" Muslim (whatever "Muslim" looks like to the hassler. So he was hassled on the basis of his appearance, not his religion. As noted, nobody's cornered the market on ignorant assholes. Unfortunately. Your friend ran into one. It happens.

[ 15. October 2013, 22:31: Message edited by: Porridge ]

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


Christians can avoid calling attention to their faith; women cannot hide their gender, at least not for long.


Meanwhile, though, I recommend that Christians still occupying space above rather than below the grass might want to toughen up over hearing the odd rude joke or ridicule, and avoid characterizing every life disappointment as "persecution." This is the world: deal.

How would this post have gone down if it had suggested that gay people are capable of hiding their sexuality, and that they should toughen up over hearing themselves described as fags or dykes in the workplace? That's just a "life disappointment"?

It would (rightly) have been shot down. Why do different rules apply to religious minorities?

Because religion is a choice and sexuality is not? It's a bullshit analogy.
Well that's at least debateable. But my friend who is actually a Christian just this week got told to "fuck off you fucking Muslim" in a cornershop.

Obviously his fault and not worthy of protection. He should just deal with it. In fact he should just move back to a Muslim country. [Roll Eyes]

What's more Porridge seems to be suggesting that if you can keep quiet about whatever people are persecuting you for, you should, to avoid rocking the boat. It was of course this "don't ask don't tell" that led to genuine persecution for minorities for years.

Why would I suggest that your Christian friend goes and lives in a Muslim country because some other people thought they were Muslim? That makes no sense, and is nothing to do with my comment. As Justinian says, the supposed religious discrimination in this case is more likely to be racial discrimination - which is something based on a non-chosen characteristic. Even if one disagrees about the chosen-ness or otherwise of sexuality, religion is certainly a choice, and for Christians in the West it's a choice that brings a certain social power or stability. It doesn't take much to imagine how being nominally Christian in say, France, is easier than being openly Muslim for instance.

As has also been said upthread, Christianity in the West is often (I would say mostly) ridiculed for being oppressive. Regarding jokes about Christians endorsing sexual abuse by clergy, oppressing LGBTQ people, being YECs etc, it seems to be in very bad taste for Christians to be offended by this considering how much harm they have caused in these areas. A more appropriate reaction would be for Christians to repent of the oppression they have caused, and work harder to not oppress but to set free. Perhaps if Christians loved more and harmed less, people would make fewer jokes about us.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


So ultimately, people choose how, and whether, and to what degree, to identify with or to practice a religion.

You appear to think that “choosing” a religion is like choosing which pair of socks to wear.

That might be true for a few religious people, but for the overwhelming majority, and not just Christians, it is something which they cannot not believe is true.

You want them to say, “ I believe that my faith holds the key to the universal and eternal meaning of existence, but people are persecuting me for it, so I’ll just move to another country, or shut up about it and pretend it is meaningless to me, or choose to abandon it”.

Recently, Muslims have persecuted Buddhists in Thailand, and Thais have persecuted Muslims in return.

Muslims have also been persecuted by Buddhists in Sri Lanka and Burma/Myanmar, as well as by Hindus in India.

Do you really have nothing more to say to such situations than, “You chose that religion, so you have to live with the consequences if you don’t choose to give it up when people give you a hard time over it”?

Politics is also a matter of choice.

Suppose Republicans and other conservatives got together to outlaw Democrats, and discriminate against them in areas such as employment; organize mobs to destroy their property; and imprison, rape, torture and murder them.

It is a bizarre and sensationalist scenario (except to the paranoid) but a valid analogy nonetheless.

In those circumstances, would you suggest that Democrats choose to abandon their political convictions, leave America, or try to meet secretly and quietly “in the kitchen with the water running”?

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Kaplan Corday
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Ideally, both religious and non-religious people would choose not to offend others by making jokes about their religion, but it is imperative in an open and free society that there be no political or legal prevention of their doing so.

Danny Nalliah, a pastor here in Melbourne, was extravagantly execrated upthread, and I too hold the gravest reservations about him, but he is a good example to illustrate the issues involved.

Some years ago he was prosecuted for holding a meeting at which a speaker ridiculed Islam and the Koran.

First, religious freedom can never be absolute, but it should always be maximized, and laws limiting comment on it, including jokes and mockery, are very dangerous.

Secondly, Christianity throughout the West is incessantly mocked and blasphemed without any repercussions for its critics (which is as it should be) but other religions, such as Islam and (in Australia) indigenous beliefs, are required to be treated with punctilious respect.

Thirdly, comedians, journalists and others who specialise in attacking Christianity act as if they are being radical, daring and edgy.

This is a wank.

They are risking absolutely nothing.

There was a time centuries ago when it took enormous courage to attack institutionalized Christianity, but not today, claims to Christianity’s mythical hegemonic power notwithstanding.

On the other hand, anyone would think twice, and carefully count the cost, before vilifying Islam (which is why, for the most part, the aforesaid self-valorised comedians and journalists don’t do it, despite Islam’s extremist minority richly deserving it).

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


So ultimately, people choose how, and whether, and to what degree, to identify with or to practice a religion.

You appear to think that “choosing” a religion is like choosing which pair of socks to wear.

That might be true for a few religious people, but for the overwhelming majority, and not just Christians, it is something which they cannot not believe is true.

You want them to say, “ I believe that my faith holds the key to the universal and eternal meaning of existence, but people are persecuting me for it, so I’ll just move to another country, or shut up about it and pretend it is meaningless to me, or choose to abandon it”.

Recently, Muslims have persecuted Buddhists in Thailand, and Thais have persecuted Muslims in return.

Muslims have also been persecuted by Buddhists in Sri Lanka and Burma/Myanmar, as well as by Hindus in India.

Do you really have nothing more to say to such situations than, “You chose that religion, so you have to live with the consequences if you don’t choose to give it up when people give you a hard time over it”?

Politics is also a matter of choice.

Suppose Republicans and other conservatives got together to outlaw Democrats, and discriminate against them in areas such as employment; organize mobs to destroy their property; and imprison, rape, torture and murder them.

It is a bizarre and sensationalist scenario (except to the paranoid) but a valid analogy nonetheless.

In those circumstances, would you suggest that Democrats choose to abandon their political convictions, leave America, or try to meet secretly and quietly “in the kitchen with the water running”?

Religion and politics are choices in ways that gender, skin colour etc are not - nobody can do anything about their skin colour, but people can and do change their religion. Now, I don't think they should have to and disagree with Porridge re the rights of religious minorities, but it is not comparable to racism for instance.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Good one, that might be it. Some people on this thread have commented about religious jokes that they found offensive. It would be good to have an idea or an example of what kind of jokes these might be.

... is it really eight years since The Laugh Judgement?

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
On the other hand, anyone would think twice, and carefully count the cost, before vilifying Islam (which is why, for the most part, the aforesaid self-valorised comedians and journalists don’t do it, despite Islam’s extremist minority richly deserving it).

Fatwa envy always seemed kind of ugly to me, like the speaker was wistful that their own religion doesn't have enough violent extremists to silence the critics.

At any rate, there's a far more practical reason for the dearth of Islamic jokes by comedians, as explained by Dara O'Briain in this video. (The relevant bit starts around 1:40.) It's very hard to get a lot of comedic material about something neither the comic nor the audience has more than a cursory knowledge about.

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LeRoc

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quote:
Justinian: ... is it really eight years since The Laugh Judgement?
I'm familiar with that. Thanks for linking to it here.

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Lamb Chopped
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I'm embarrassed to say it, having been cited, [Hot and Hormonal] but i too think religion (Christian faith at least) is not a matter of choice. I didn't choose to become a believer and i could more easily change my skin color or gender than my faith. I am aware that there are many people for whom religion is a choice, rather like choosing a social club or service organization. But if it's the content (truth value) that has you set down where you are, you might as well try to change your views on gravity. Nothing but a convincing demonstration is going to do it--simply choosing to disbelieve in it will have no effect on your gut convictions. Or your behavior, for that matter. You will still throw out your hands when you stumble, no matter what your official stance is during stress-free times.

I fear the hypothetical mass-holding Saudis are in for a hard time of it. If they are truly Catholic believers, that is not a behavior they are going to be able to cease.

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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!

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Crœsos
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:
No. I am suggesting that people practicing a faith in a hostile environment* should carefully consider the risks they have chosen to run, and act and speak accordingly.

I'm somewhat appalled by a standard that blames the oppressed for their oppression and justifies it by suggesting that "closeting" is a perfectly good solution. Insisting on the closet is the way oppressors feel better about themselves, since any negative consequences are kept out of sight.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Porridge
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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You appear to think that “choosing” a religion is like choosing which pair of socks to wear.

Where exactly did I suggest this? I've acknowledged that people make such choices in situations where they may suffer for it. Some people even sacrifice their lives. YMMV, but I doubt much genuine suffering attends anyone's choice of socks.

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
You want them to say, “ I believe that my faith holds the key to the universal and eternal meaning of existence, but people are persecuting me for it, so I’ll just move to another country, or shut up about it and pretend it is meaningless to me, or choose to abandon it”.

Again, where have I suggested that people abandon their beliefs or pretend those beliefs have no meaning? I am simply suggesting that people continue, after adopting a belief system, to understand what risks they run and make considered choices about their practices and observances.

Too often, what I see (here in my home town, in fact) is people deciding that the religion they've adopted, because they consider it a "higher" form of truth, somehow exempts them from obeying secular law. When unpleasant consequences ensue, they claim persecution. Example: a woman was praying aloud for students' safety and peace on our high school's steps every morning. She was asked to leave (on pain of being charged with trespass), having no business to conduct with students, staff, or faculty and therefore no reason to be on school grounds, where -- ironically, for the safety of the students -- access is restricted. She claimed she was being persecuted for her faith. Actually, she was trespassing. The same would happen to me if I stood on the school steps not praying, but reciting the Gettysburg address.

I don't doubt this woman's sincerity or faith or depth of feeling. I don't share her faith, but I would defend her right to follow it. What I can't defend is her insistence on trespass as part of her religious practice. Rather, I think she abrogated her responsibility to exercise her -- she might say God-given -- common sense. There's no reason she can't pray the exact same prayers, to exactly the same effect, every morning at her own kitchen table, at her church, or at the gas station across the road, provided the station owner agreed.

quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
Recently, Muslims have persecuted Buddhists in Thailand, and Thais have persecuted Muslims in return.

Muslims have also been persecuted by Buddhists in Sri Lanka and Burma/Myanmar, as well as by Hindus in India.

Do you really have nothing more to say to such situations than, “You chose that religion, so you have to live with the consequences if you don’t choose to give it up when people give you a hard time over it”?.

First, we all -- not just religious people -- have to live with the consequences of our actions and decisions. That's as true of the perpetrators of violence as it is for their victims.

Look, I've been arrested for civil disobedience. No heroism here; I was lucky. I wasn't beaten or injured, was subjected only to the normal inconveniences and humiliations experienced by people who get arrested. I suffered no long-term consequences. I've engaged in non-violent protest of situations I considered unjust. I'd do it again; I'd do it to make a point I considered valid and important. But I'd never claim, in such circumstances, that I was being persecuted for my opinions. I was deliberately breaking a law, and suffering the consequences. I was getting arrested and jailed for my refusal to obey. But this, in every case, was what I expected to happen; when we break the law, we get arrested, jailed, fined, and so on. All we're doing, in such cases, is calling attention to an injustice.

There are many ways to deal with injustice, and being assaulted, maimed, or killed for one's religious beliefs is certainly unjust. Civil disobedience is one way to deal with injustice. Violence, unfortunately, is another. Organizing, developing alliances, and putting pressure on those in power, is yet another. However, to make such efforts produce change takes a substantial body of people able to persist in their protests. Getting yourself, as an ordinary person like me(rather than a leader/martyr like Nelson Mandela or Martin Luther King), killed or permanently imprisoned separates you from efforts to right the injustices; it reduces the numbers you need to apply pressure.

Second, you might just quote the bit where I propose that people surrender their faith. Rather, I'm suggesting that people not make themselves targets; that way, they can continue trying to right the wrongs. I do not suggest abandoning faith; I know better. I know that my freedom to follow no religion at all is absolutely dependent upon, and indeed identical to, the freedom of others to follow theirs, even if that religion's tenets bewilder or horrify me (and some do).

Third, you're inventing. Further, you're inventing in exactly the same manner to which I object in the local woman's reaction to her trespassing charge. Because I suggest that small groups of people in circumstances adverse to their faith make considered choices about the risks they run, including understanding and accepting that they face potentially dire consequences for flouting local law, you want to claim me as an enemy of religion. You want to number me among the persecutors. Well, go ahead; I can't stop you. But that is not who I am.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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mdijon
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I do agree that homosexuality, ethnicity and religion are not good parallels in that the process of acquiring either identity is rather different.

On the other hand how one displays that identity does have parallels.

The advice to Christians to think about being a bit less obviously Christian in public in the face of persecution (I mean real persecution a la Saudi Arabia not a la Carey) shows a similar sensitivity to mentioning that gay people might think about looking a bit less obviously gay on nights out to avoid being targeted by homophobic attacks.

These are technically correct points, but the wrong place and time to make them, and lacking an understanding of the human dimensions to identity.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
Fatwa envy always seemed kind of ugly to me, like the speaker was wistful that their own religion doesn't have enough violent extremists to silence the critics.

"Fatwa envy" sounds about as convincing a concept as penis envy.

You just don't get it.

What we should be "wistful" for is a state of affairs in which no-one is intimidated by death threats for publicly criticising any religion.

quote:
At any rate, there's a far more practical reason for the dearth of Islamic jokes by comedians, as explained by Dara O'Briain in this video. (The relevant bit starts around 1:40.) It's very hard to get a lot of comedic material about something neither the comic nor the audience has more than a cursory knowledge about.
And just how much "knowledge" is it necessary to acquire before we are justified in disagreeing with, and satirising, death threats against editors and cartoonists who lampoon Mahommed, or girls being shot in the head because they demand an education, or suicide bombers who indiscriminately kill hundreds of innocent victims?
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Kaplan Corday
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quote:
Originally posted by Porridge:


Too often, what I see (here in my home town, in fact) is people deciding that the religion they've adopted, because they consider it a "higher" form of truth, somehow exempts them from obeying secular law. When unpleasant consequences ensue, they claim persecution. Example: a woman was praying aloud for students' safety and peace on our high school's steps every morning. She was asked to leave (on pain of being charged with trespass), having no business to conduct with students, staff, or faculty and therefore no reason to be on school grounds, where -- ironically, for the safety of the students -- access is restricted. She claimed she was being persecuted for her faith. Actually, she was trespassing. The same would happen to me if I stood on the school steps not praying, but reciting the Gettysburg address.


You appear to be attempting some species of argumentum ad absurdum.

The issue is not about isolated religious loonies and extremists who push the envelope, but vast masses of ordinary people of every religion who just want to be free to practice their faith free of both persecution, and blame, when it occurs for allegedly bringing it on themselves.

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
]Well that's at least debateable. But my friend who is actually a Christian just this week got told to "fuck off you fucking Muslim" in a cornershop.

In other words racism can be the actual reason for some apparently anti-religious sentiment. News at 11. And there is nothing your Christian friend can do about the racism.
According to Porridge's logic there is actually - he can move somewhere where his distinctiveness isn't so obvious.

People have said what I think. Aside from this bland assertion that your religious beliefs are your choice, which is at the very least debateable, (and I would argue, in many people's experience, untenable) the idea that it should be normal in society for people to take responsibility for hiding their religious practice in order to avoid low level intolerance is....well...disturbing IMHO.

But maybe that's where we are. Porridge is at least right that Christians shouldn't be surprised.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
]Well that's at least debateable. But my friend who is actually a Christian just this week got told to "fuck off you fucking Muslim" in a cornershop.

In other words racism can be the actual reason for some apparently anti-religious sentiment. News at 11. And there is nothing your Christian friend can do about the racism.
According to Porridge's logic there is actually - he can move somewhere where his distinctiveness isn't so obvious.

People have said what I think. Aside from this bland assertion that your religious beliefs are your choice, which is at the very least debateable, (and I would argue, in many people's experience, untenable) the idea that it should be normal in society for people to take responsibility for hiding their religious practice in order to avoid low level intolerance is....well...disturbing IMHO.

But maybe that's where we are. Porridge is at least right that Christians shouldn't be surprised.

Religion is a choice in contrast to race, disability etc. Obviously it's not a choice in the same way as choosing an outfit, but it is actually possible to change religion. Not actually possible to change race.

I don't think people should have to hide their beliefs in order to avoid low level intolerance, but given the injustices Christians have committed, I don't see why Christians should be surprised or even annoyed if others react negatively to Christianity. Maybe Christians should spend more time living lives which show the goodness and benefits of Christianity, rather than complaining that people don't like religions that oppress others?

It's also nothing new, especially in England where anti-clericalism has a long history. The church has been seen as in cahoots with those in power and rather understandably, people don't like that.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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orfeo

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I can't say that I find this 'religion is a choice' line of argument terribly convincing. The fact that it's a choice shouldn't be an excuse for a kind of 'you asked for it' line of thinking, any more than a woman wearing a sexy dress should be an excuse for 'you asked for it'.

There might well be a place for criticism of some religious behaviour, and even ridicule of it, but it's not derived from saying that it's just a consequence of having chosen to adhere to a widely held belief system.

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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.

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mdijon
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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
but given the injustices Christians have committed, I don't see why Christians should be surprised or even annoyed if others react negatively to Christianity.

I notice you slip from Christians to Christianity for the last word.

I think what people are upset about is when they experience personally directed negative reactions because of their membership of a group. In the same way that English people, Gay people, Arsenal supporters, builders and others might get upset if the negativity that someone attaches to the English/the gays/ the gunners/ brickies gets attached to them personally.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Dinghy Sailor

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Religion is a choice in contrast to race, disability etc. Obviously it's not a choice in the same way as choosing an outfit, but it is actually possible to change religion. Not actually possible to change race.

If I consider that the price of changing my religion is losing my soul, then that is not a price that anyone should consider it right, or even possible, to ask me to pay. "Yeah, if you don't like being persecuted for being a Christian, you could just become a Hindu instead. You'll go to hell but that's your choice, so who cares about that."

Remember, countless people have died rather than deny their faith - given that, it's not something that we should consider to be changeable. Changing my faith would have far greater consequences than changing my sex.


quote:
I don't think people should have to hide their beliefs in order to avoid low level intolerance, but given the injustices Christians have committed, I don't see why Christians should be surprised or even annoyed if others react negatively to Christianity.
Could we please get over the post-imperial guilt already? Let's all have another read of Lucia's linked article and remind ourselves that the idea of Christianity being the oppressor is very out of date: The War on Christians: Spectator

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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
...the idea of Christianity being the oppressor is very out of date

Assuming you're not homosexual or female, of course.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Religion is a choice in contrast to race, disability etc. Obviously it's not a choice in the same way as choosing an outfit, but it is actually possible to change religion. Not actually possible to change race.

If I consider that the price of changing my religion is losing my soul, then that is not a price that anyone should consider it right, or even possible, to ask me to pay. "Yeah, if you don't like being persecuted for being a Christian, you could just become a Hindu instead. You'll go to hell but that's your choice, so who cares about that."

Remember, countless people have died rather than deny their faith - given that, it's not something that we should consider to be changeable. Changing my faith would have far greater consequences than changing my sex.


quote:
I don't think people should have to hide their beliefs in order to avoid low level intolerance, but given the injustices Christians have committed, I don't see why Christians should be surprised or even annoyed if others react negatively to Christianity.
Could we please get over the post-imperial guilt already? Let's all have another read of Lucia's linked article and remind ourselves that the idea of Christianity being the oppressor is very out of date: The War on Christians: Spectator

Given conservative Christian Republicans' war on women/gays/the poor in the US, Christianity being the oppressor isn't out of date at all. It's very, very real for a lot of people.

And um yeah, I'm well aware that religion isn't a simple choice, I've said this ad nauseum. But it isn't the same as race, disability etc, so it's inaccurate to compare religion with such things.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Lucia

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I think there is a further complication in this discussion in that it is all too easy to project our Western individualism onto Christians in other parts of the world. We tend to see religion as all about individual choice because we live in very individualistic societies.

In many places your religious identity is very tightly bound up with your cultural ethnic group. If you are part of a despised minority who are historically Christian whether you are actively practicing your faith in overt ways or not may make little difference to the discrimination you are on the receiving end of simply because you are identified as being part of that community.
The Christian community in Pakistan would be an example of this. And the recent bombing of a church in Peshawar shows the devastating consequences.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
but given the injustices Christians have committed, I don't see why Christians should be surprised or even annoyed if others react negatively to Christianity.

I notice you slip from Christians to Christianity for the last word.

I think what people are upset about is when they experience personally directed negative reactions because of their membership of a group. In the same way that English people, Gay people, Arsenal supporters, builders and others might get upset if the negativity that someone attaches to the English/the gays/ the gunners/ brickies gets attached to them personally.

Of course it's annoying, but then....don't take it personally? If people are mocking your religion because that religion has acted badly towards xyz group in an unfair way, and you agree with the mockers that this was wrong, then what's the problem? Is it impossible to mock one's own religion?

Just talking about jokes here though, more serious abuse is rather different (and illegal in the UK anyway).

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Leprechaun

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:


And um yeah, I'm well aware that religion isn't a simple choice, I've said this ad nauseum. But it isn't the same as race, disability etc, so it's inaccurate to compare religion with such things.

I think, at that level, race and disability and gender and religion are not the same as each other clearly. Two of those are changeable, and two are not, for example. But religion goes in with those in human rights legislation as a protected characteristic so I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

Both you and Porridge have experience of Christianity being a somewhat oppressive force, I get that. It's totally wrong. Nevertheless, to suggest that people should just make their religion private in order to avoid hassle moves the problem of religious abuse onto the victim, even if in your culture religious people are not currently the victims in question. The fact that they may or may not have chosen their faith shouldn't really bear in the discussion.

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I think there is a further complication in this discussion in that it is all too easy to project our Western individualism onto Christians in other parts of the world. We tend to see religion as all about individual choice because we live in very individualistic societies.

In many places your religious identity is very tightly bound up with your cultural ethnic group. If you are part of a despised minority who are historically Christian whether you are actively practicing your faith in overt ways or not may make little difference to the discrimination you are on the receiving end of simply because you are identified as being part of that community.
The Christian community in Pakistan would be an example of this. And the recent bombing of a church in Peshawar shows the devastating consequences.

Bombing churches isn't the same as people in the UK making jokes about the CoE. Criticism of religion is not persecution. I know you're not saying it is, but the two situations are so different that I don't think they belong in the same discussion.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Pomona
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quote:
Originally posted by Leprechaun:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:


And um yeah, I'm well aware that religion isn't a simple choice, I've said this ad nauseum. But it isn't the same as race, disability etc, so it's inaccurate to compare religion with such things.

I think, at that level, race and disability and gender and religion are not the same as each other clearly. Two of those are changeable, and two are not, for example. But religion goes in with those in human rights legislation as a protected characteristic so I'm not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

Both you and Porridge have experience of Christianity being a somewhat oppressive force, I get that. It's totally wrong. Nevertheless, to suggest that people should just make their religion private in order to avoid hassle moves the problem of religious abuse onto the victim, even if in your culture religious people are not currently the victims in question. The fact that they may or may not have chosen their faith shouldn't really bear in the discussion.

I don't think people should make their religion private. I disagree with porridge on that. I DO think that religious people should do more to correct the oppressive forces within their own religions - easier said than done I know, but it seems like the only way to stop people from reacting to oppression by religious people with intolerance of their own. Well, aside from stopping people from reacting to oppression like that which I don't think is particularly likely or reasonable.

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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]

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Lucia

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I'm also not convinced that feeling mildly annoyed and uncomfortable because someone is making fun of you or of something which is precious to you is really discrimination.

I think the point is that religious discrimination is a scale. Being personally targeted verbally just because you identify as a member of a particular religion rather than for something you have personally done is perhaps the mildest extreme of the scale, physical aggression or discrimination in the workplace or in receiving goods and services that you should be entitled to is a bit further along it, violence, being driven from you home under threat, death are at the other extreme. But they are not disconnected things, as experience has shown with other forms of discrimination. We know how rhetoric can feed more extreme forms of prejudice.

I think there is a difference between satirically poking fun at some aspect of religious belief or practice and actually targeting personally individuals or groups in a way likely to stoke up hatred or encourage people to despise them. That is where I think the risk becomes that we step onto that scale of discrimination.

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Justinian
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quote:
Originally posted by Dinghy Sailor:
Could we please get over the post-imperial guilt already? Let's all have another read of Lucia's linked article and remind ourselves that the idea of Christianity being the oppressor is very out of date: The War on Christians: Spectator

You mean we should take seriously an article that claims that the Battle of the Bulge was the turning point in World War 2. Right. And then gives statistics with no baselines using blatantly partisan sources including a theological seminary and no link to the actual data.

Yeah, I'm going to take the rag that used to be edited by Boris Johnson about as seriously as I normally do. Or only slighly more seriously than Alex Jones.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

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Lucia

Looking for light
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I think many of the events that are cited can be verified by an internet search.

Are you disputing that the oppression of Christians that is cited is real or do they not count because they are not westerners?

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Justinian
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And while I'm on the subject I thought I'd try running down the ISHR statistic about 80% of religious persecution. I hoped to find something fascinating, if unwanted.

My googling found that the ISHR puts its reports online. And the list of reports doesn't include anything obviously relevant.

quote:
Reports at Human Rights
Public Health in Cuba
Cuba: Death in prison
Vladimir Novitski, President of the ISHR-Section Russia: Interview and opinion on Russia's new NGO law
Cuba: Protests in front of Havanna´s capitol knocked down
Cuba: "I was afraid that something like this happens"
Cuban opposition leader killed in mysterious car accident
Annual Meeting of the ISHR Section Russia
Europe Cuba Network calls for immediate release of Jorge Luis García Pérez
Eugenia Timoshenko's speech at the ISHR Annual Meeting
Human Rights in occupied North Mali
Obit to the ISHR Founder, Mr. Ivan Agruzov
Nguyen Van Dai: The International Human Rights Day 2011 - An Appeal to the World
Statement by the Europe-Cuba NGO Network on the Government Violence Against Women's Organizations in Cuba
Lebanon: Maids are a status symbol
Germany: Former GDR-prison Cottbus now in "Prisoner's" Hands
ISHR-Costa Rica Working Group: Activity Report 2010
ISHR-Colombia: Activity Report 2010
ISHR-Cameroon: Activity Report 2010
ISHR-Australia: Activity Report 2010
Houshang Asadi: Iran Is a Mine Field For a Writer
CRDHC-Annual Report on Human Rights in Cuba 2010
A sign of hope from Havana
ISHR Georgia Report 2010: Prison Conditions in the Republic of Georgia
ISHR Guatemala Report 2009/2010
ISHR Cameroon Section and FHRD Activity Report 2008/2009
Systematic Torture in the People's Republic of China
Methods of torture in the People's Republic of China
Bangladesh: Drop False Charges against the Journalist and Peace Activist, Salah Uddin Shoaib Choudhury!
ISHR Australia: Kenya - Nepal Appeal
ISHR Senegal: Activity Report 2007
ISHR Australia Report 2007
Mae Sot - Rocky Mountain Village in Thailand

You know what I don't see on there? Any attempt at a world report - and the reports go back at least six years. Everything is country specific. So they simply don't have the expertise to make the statement the Spectator is claiming they did. Either they were claiming that 80% of religious discrimination in one specific country was anti-Christian (eminently plausible) and were taken out of context or someone was being hyperbolic, or they were acting outside their expertise (note that there was no report on e.g. America). And in any of these three cases we can treat the 80% figure that makes up the centrepiece of the Spectator's case with a pinch of salt - unless you have a better source.

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Posts: 3926 | From: The Sea Coast of Bohemia | Registered: Dec 2003  |  IP: Logged
Justinian
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# 5357

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quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
I think many of the events that are cited can be verified by an internet search.

Which I was busy doing... Such a pity that it didn't turn up anything approaching the Spectator's claim.

quote:
Are you disputing that the oppression of Christians that is cited is real or do they not count because they are not westerners?
I'm saying that the Spectator doesn't appear to be a reliable source. There is definitely some anti-Christian discrimination. There is also an entire cottage industry of people like Former Archbishop Carey or, seemingly, the Spectator, trying to invent anti-Christian persecution like the "War on Christmas" in an attempt to claim they are being persecuted.

Yes, there are bad things happening in the world that often fission along apparently religious lines. I think that claiming them as religious discrimination rather than looking for root causes (as in e.g. Northern Ireland or the Balkans) gets in the way - with Leprechaun's Christian friend demonstrating how irrelevant the actual religion often is. And the Christian persecution complex does one thing - means that any actual religious persecution is taken less seriously.

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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.

Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.

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mdijon
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# 8520

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Of course it's annoying, but then....don't take it personally?

Depends on how and where it is done. If I am being bullied at work it is likely I'll have a hard time not taking it personally. If I'm watching a stand-up show then I'll find it easier.

Most brick-layers, Arsenal supporters and various other groups might find it equally hard to not take it personally.

Also in this thread it can be difficult to keep track of when we are talking about Christians in the UK feeling persecuted and Christians in Saudi or North Korea feeling persecuted. For the former talking about taking it personally may be arguably appropriate, for the latter it won't be.

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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon

Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004  |  IP: Logged
Porridge
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# 15405

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quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I don't think people should make their religion private. I disagree with porridge on that.

Actually, you don't disagree with me. Let me try once more:

1. Freedom of conscience is perhaps the single most fundamental human right.

2. It's SO important that it should be defended wherever those in power try to deny it, especially when they do this through prohibitions.

3. People try to obtain / defend this freedom in a variety of ways.

4. ONE way is to openly defy laws whose purpose is to deny this freedom. Let's come at what I'm trying to get across from this other end of the telescope.

The outcomes of open defiance depend very much on the circumstances of the oppressors, the circumstances of the oppressed, and the goals each is working toward.

A small group of person-in-the-street co-religionists which openly defies the oppressive anti-religion laws of a wealthy, powerful government committed to enforcing those laws is, as Lamb Chopped notes above, in for a very hard time.

Before launching their open defiance, they should discuss and anticipate what could happen. They should also consider deeply what their desired goals are. Some possible examples:

* They want to be able to worship in peace on Sunday mornings.

* They want to be able to evangelize.

* They want to be able to wear symbols of their religious affiliation in public.

* They want to get rid of the law which forbids their worship.

-- and so on.

If they determine that the law itself is the problem and their goal is to change or repeal it, they may have an opportunity to expand their numbers. There may be other groups who are similarly oppressed. Bigger numbers = a bigger voice = more attention to the situation = more pressure on those in power = a better chance of achieving the desired goal.

Then there's some strategizing to do about the open defiance. Some members of their group may be willing (and better-circumstanced) to risk the most severe punishment which could be handed out to open defiers. The act of defiance should be crafted in such a way that these are the people who suffer the consequences -- because they're willing.

Other members may be unwilling or unable to cope with those consequences. The act of defiance should crafted in such a way that these members are NOT put at risk -- because they aren't willing or able.

IOW, those willing and able to deal with the consequences are the ones who should engage in any act of open defiance. Those unwilling or unable to do so should withdraw from that action. They should keep quiet and private, at least temporarily, so as to remain free and unharmed because they will have a different task: to continue the larger group's work toward the group's goal, by enlarging their numbers, soliciting support for their cause, forming alliances with groups able to put pressure on those in power, etc.

I am not suggesting that people keep their religion private (though, in the interests of group goals, SOME group members should do so); I am suggesting that a single parent with no child care should not be the one who risks extended time in jail. She should stay away from the open defiance; her kids need her. Rather, someone without dependent children is a better candidate for that role (that's exactly part of why I, rather than some of my colleagues, went to jail). In short, I am stating what I've been stating all along: when dealing with injustice, oppression, and danger, people should carefully weigh out the risks they're willing to run and plan together how, as a group, they are most likely to achieve their common goal.

Personally, I don't think the woman praying on the steps is especially loony or extreme. She is targeting the wrong law; she has not enlisted her co-religionists in whatever her goal is, and she has (publicly) stated no goal. In addition, she is not, IMO, oppressed. No one is insisting that she change her beliefs or her actions, just her location. Her claim of persecution is therefore bogus.

The hypothetical would-be Saudi mass celebrators face an entirely different set of problems: an unjust law, a powerful government eager to enforce it, and probably far more serious possible consequences than a small fine or a few days in jail.

If nobody in our hypothetical Saudi group is willing to deal with the likely consequences of openly disobeying the law, they have two options: continue meeting for religious purposes while keeping this activity private, or discontinuing to meet. Either way, I think they owe it to themselves and one another to tackle what this means for them as a group. I also think they should make some effort to reach out to others in their situation.

That said, I have to say that any group focusing on allowing practice of their own faith to the exclusion of other faiths or non-adherence to any faith, is a group that, IMO, utterly misses the point.

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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!

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Crœsos
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# 238

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quote:
Originally posted by Kaplan Corday:
quote:
Originally posted by Crœsos:
At any rate, there's a far more practical reason for the dearth of Islamic jokes by comedians, as explained by Dara O'Briain in this video. (The relevant bit starts around 1:40.) It's very hard to get a lot of comedic material about something neither the comic nor the audience has more than a cursory knowledge about.

And just how much "knowledge" is it necessary to acquire before we are justified in disagreeing with, and satirising, death threats against editors and cartoonists who lampoon Mahommed, or girls being shot in the head because they demand an education, or suicide bombers who indiscriminately kill hundreds of innocent victims?
There's only so many ways you can make a joke based on your suggested "isn't it funny how all Muslims are terrorists" premise, in part because making jokes about tragedies is always treading a fine line but mostly because it'd be too repetitive to sustain a twenty-minute stand-up set. Anything requiring a broader understanding of Islam generally will fly over the heads of most Western audiences. For example, any joke that starts out "A Sunni, a Shiite, and an Ibadi walk into a café . . . " will probably be lost on anyone not familiar with these groups and the common stereotypes about them.

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Humani nil a me alienum puto

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Laurelin
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# 17211

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quote:
Originally posted by Justinian:
There is definitely some anti-Christian discrimination. There is also an entire cottage industry of people like Former Archbishop Carey or, seemingly, the Spectator, trying to invent anti-Christian persecution like the "War on Christmas" in an attempt to claim they are being persecuted.

Silly Western squabbles about Christmas are not on the same level as Christians - and other minority faith groups in the Middle East - being threatened with the death penalty because they are perceived to have ‘ insulted the Prophet’, as in the Asia Bibi case:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asia_Bibi

Please note that two senior government officials were killed because of their support for Bibi and for their opposition to the blasphemy laws.

quote:
Yes, there are bad things happening in the world that often fission along apparently religious lines. I think that claiming them as religious discrimination rather than looking for root causes (as in e.g. Northern Ireland or the Balkans) gets in the way - with Leprechaun's Christian friend demonstrating how irrelevant the actual religion often is.
You need to look outside the Western/European framework. Seriously.

quote:
And the Christian persecution complex does one thing - means that any actual religious persecution is taken less seriously.
And how, exactly, would you know that? Amnesty International reckon there are 200,000 political prisoners in the hell-holes which are North Korea’s concentration/labour camps: 70,000 of these are reckoned to be Christians. Obviously it is completely illegal to be a Christian in North Korea, as well as to express any kind of opposing political or intellectual opinion to the regime. You might not care how Christians (or other minority faiths, for that matter) are treated in post-Communist or Muslim countries, but happily there are groups who do: human rights groups and Christian groups who advocate for the persecuted church.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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Marvin the Martian

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# 4360

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quote:
Originally posted by Laurelin:
You need to look outside the Western/European framework. Seriously.

I thought the OP was all about the Western/European framework.

You can see this happening a lot in conversations like this - it starts with how Christians are discriminated against/persecuted in the West, and then as soon as someone points out that Christians aren't in fact being persecuted in the Western/European framework out come the Saudi Arabias and Vietnams, as if what's happening in those places somehow justifies a claim of persecution in the Western/European framework.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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Laurelin
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# 17211

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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
You can see this happening a lot in conversations like this - it starts with how Christians are discriminated against/persecuted in the West, and then as soon as someone points out that Christians aren't in fact being persecuted in the Western/European framework out come the Saudi Arabias and Vietnams, as if what's happening in those places somehow justifies a claim of persecution in the Western/European framework.

And then you get Justinian, who denies there's actually a problem with the Saudi Arabias and the Vietnams ... I personally don't see the situation in the West as analogous to that in the Middle East (for example), but he seems to.

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"I fear that to me Siamese cats belong to the fauna of Mordor." J.R.R. Tolkien

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