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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Anorexia
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I am as sceptical about a one-to-one link with dieting as I am about a one-to-one link with bad parenting or neuro-endocrine receptors.
However, it does seem that anorexia is more common in cultures that think it is fantastic for women to be thin, and among groups where dieting and being thin is a particular focus. On the other hand it is possible that the psychological distress that leads to anorexia would come out in another way were it not to lead to anorexia, and hence reducing the rate of anorexia by focusing on such issues may not overall improve mental health.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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QLib
Bad Example
# 43
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I am as sceptical about a one-to-one link with dieting as I am about a one-to-one link with bad parenting or neuro-endocrine receptors.
However, it does seem that anorexia is more common in cultures that think it is fantastic for women to be thin, and among groups where dieting and being thin is a particular focus. On the other hand it is possible that the psychological distress that leads to anorexia would come out in another way were it not to lead to anorexia, and hence reducing the rate of anorexia by focusing on such issues may not overall improve mental health.
Yes. But then again it might. I don't think Twilight was suggesting that dieting always causes anorexia, I think she was suggesting that anorexia can be kick-started by extreme dieting. That's certainly how it appears to be in some people.
It may well be that there is underlying psychological distress that sets someone off on the path of food-related obsession. It may well be that the one feeds into the other (and you have to have both to get the escalation). However, I don't think it necessarily follows that, if we had a society that was less insanely obsessed with female body shape, unhappy (say) adolescent girls would necessarily develop another extreme form of mental unwellness.
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Tradition is the handing down of the flame, not the worship of the ashes Gustav Mahler.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Yes, I agree it doesn't necessarily follow by any means.
Indeed, if one widens the focus of an intervention from dieting practices to include the issues you describe regarding how our society treats women dependent on their shape and the messages delivered then I think it much more likely the root causes of a source of psychological distress would be dealt with.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Twilight, if you were right in thinking that dieting starts anorexia then I would have been anorexic with my sister. We had both dieted the summer before as teenagers, me more seriously than my sister at that time. I was never anorexic. It wasn't dieting alone caused my sister's anorexia.
I don't understand why you are translating my saying that I think dieting is very often the spark for anorexia, as saying everyone who ever went on a diet gets anorexia? I've been on diets that I couldn't stop and came home from college at below 100 pounds. I've also been on diets that rebounded with binging and excessive weight gain and I once went on a diet and then managed to keep stable at 110 lbs for 20 years. It's all possible. All I'm saying is that I think our culture, that encourages anyone with the slightest bit of a bulge to go on a diet, and the strict dieting that sometimes results, is a factor in eating disorders. Of course every single person who goes on a diet doesn't get anorexia. Where did I say that?
Since you think I'm wrong and you have some other trigger in mind perhaps you would like to share it with us? While you're at it explain why anorexia was very rare a hundred years ago even though, surely, perfectionism, and controlling parents, etc. were just as much, if not more, in evidence.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Curiosity killed: quote:
Twilight - can you link to where anyone has said that it's the mother's fault on this thread?
I am not very good at doing links within threads (I'm not Twilight either), but a quick scroll through the rest of this thread threw up the following comments:
L'organist said: quote:
...part of the reason for the girl's vocal aggression towards her mother may be because the mother is discussing her daughter publicly with people at the church?
Fineline said: quote:
Also, in general, if I hear about a teenager supposedly being 'vocally abusive' to her mother, I always wonder whether the mother was abusive first. Because when you only hear the mother's side, you never know.
Both of these are reasonable reactions, given the evidence presented, but they do suggest that the mother is to blame for the girl being 'vocally abusive' even if they don't go so far as to say she's to blame for the anorexia as well.
Blaming parents for everything their children do is fashionable nowadays, anyway; a mother's place is in the wrong, etc., etc.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
It was this, more than anything, that sounded to me like the mother's "control freakery," was to blame for one sister's anorexia and the other sisters' other problems:
Curiosity Killed said, quote:
That sister became anorexic. My other sister and I found our own ways to self-abuse to deal with the control freakery of our parents.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Twilight here you said:
quote:
With a few exceptions, the general tone of this thread seems to be (1) this woman's daughter has a mental illness, therefore it's shameful and she shouldn't be talking about it, she should be keeping it well hidden, and (2)as with all mental illnesses, it must be the mother's fault.
And I was challenging you to point out where anyone had said it was the mother's fault.
In the same post you go on to say:
quote:
Anorexia, like obesity, usually starts with a diet that throws off the body's natural "hunger" hormones and the brain's response to them. That first diet may be triggered by anything at all. It might be something read in a magazine or it might be something a passing boy said in the hall. I don't think that makes it a "family disease," with the daughter's thinness an outward evidence of the mother's cruel abuse.
Which you reiterated here
quote:
I think we'll find out eventually that we don't overeat or under-eat because we, or our mothers, are crazy but that the dieting itself makes us crazy.
I continue to challenge your assertion that dieting causes anorexia on its own because not everyone who diets goes on to develop bulimia and anorexia, which you've just agreed when I pointed out that I dieted alongside my sister and didn't go on to develop anorexia.
The link I provided earlier showed research saying that more than half the anorexics studied had suffered trauma or sexual abuse.
Anorexia can really be to do with the sufferer taking control of something when that adolescent (and most sufferers are in the middle of adolescence) feels out of control. It can also to do with not wanting to grow up, to delay puberty.
That society emphasises thinness almost certainly is a part of why anorexia is as common as it is, but it's been around for a very long time. My mother picked up anorexia in my sister as fast as she did because she had a friend who'd been anorexic as a teenager back in the 1950s, when curves were a lot more fashionable. According to Wikipedia originally anorexia was identified with extreme religious fasting, has been recorded since 1689 and recognised and named since 1873.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by QLib:
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
I am as sceptical about a one-to-one link with dieting as I am about a one-to-one link with bad parenting or neuro-endocrine receptors.
However, it does seem that anorexia is more common in cultures that think it is fantastic for women to be thin, and among groups where dieting and being thin is a particular focus. On the other hand it is possible that the psychological distress that leads to anorexia would come out in another way were it not to lead to anorexia, and hence reducing the rate of anorexia by focusing on such issues may not overall improve mental health.
Yes. But then again it might. I don't think Twilight was suggesting that dieting always causes anorexia, I think she was suggesting that anorexia can be kick-started by extreme dieting. That's certainly how it appears to be in some people.
It may well be that there is underlying psychological distress that sets someone off on the path of food-related obsession. It may well be that the one feeds into the other (and you have to have both to get the escalation). However, I don't think it necessarily follows that, if we had a society that was less insanely obsessed with female body shape, unhappy (say) adolescent girls would necessarily develop another extreme form of mental unwellness.
I think I agree with this. Certainly, the Minnesota Starvation Experiment indicated that eating disorder-ish behaviours *could* be induced in a previously healthy population, simply through extreme reduction of calorific intake.
The stereotypical anorexic is one who embarks on the extreme calorific reduction in pursuit of weight loss and/or thinness. But in reality, there can be many reasons why a person will embark on extreme calorie control, weight and appearance being only possibilities.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
Certainly, the Minnesota Starvation Experiment indicated that eating disorder-ish behaviours *could* be induced in a previously healthy population, simply through extreme reduction of calorific intake.
They had what are described as eating disorders, although my scholarly precis (aka cursory googling of tertiary sources) suggests this was more bizarre behaviours during the forced starvation and binge eating in the re-feeding stage rather than anything looking like anorexia nervosa.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
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Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
The link I provided earlier showed research saying that more than half the anorexics studied had suffered trauma or sexual abuse.
I'm sure that more than half the anorexics studied were female. More than half were probably over 5 feet tall. More than half probably wore jeans more days than not.
So, what percentage of the total population has suffered trauma or sexual abuse? What percentage of the female population?
I suspect that being female is a risk factor for sexual abuse, trauma, and anorexia nervosa. But I don't think there's adequate evidence to support the argument any one of those causes the others.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Josephine, my point was that anorexia isn't simply caused by dieting. There is a known link to trauma. There's a known link to adolescence and mental health issues - 1 in 5 of anorexia nervosa deaths come from suicide. It is a complicated situation made up of a number of factors. I was challenging the assertion made by Twilight that it is caused by dieting because that isn't supported by the research.
And the reason I kept pushing that point was to try to discourage people who seemed to be thinking that anorexia nervosa is something easily dealt with pastorally in a church. To maybe realise that the whole thing is complicated and boundaries should be respected and the professionals be allowed to work with the whole family with whatever needs doing.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
And the reason I kept pushing that point was to try to discourage people who seemed to be thinking that anorexia nervosa is something easily dealt with pastorally in a church. To maybe realise that the whole thing is complicated and boundaries should be respected and the professionals be allowed to work with the whole family with whatever needs doing.
I don't think anyone here has suggested that anorexia is an "easy thing" that can be dealt with thru pastoral care alone. However, precisely because it is a very complex and significant event in the life of an entire family, it is something where I believe pastoral care as an adjunct to professional mental health care is appropriate-- especially when requested directly as in the OP. Frankly, I resent the implication (not just here but elsewhere upthread) that pastors are bumbling fools who don't know the limits of their professional expertise, and can't manage to care for a parishioner at a painful and difficult time of life without "boundary-crossing", breaking confidentiality, or interfering with a course of treatment.
The fact that this only comes up with mental health care-- as noted upthread, no one seems concerned that pastors will interfere with a patient's cancer treatment or heart disease-- says something about the failings of a small minority of pastors, but also, I believe, reinforces an implicit (and no doubt subconscious) "shaming" of parents with mentally ill children.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
My experience is that churches can be appalling at pastoral care.
I gave one example up thread of a bungled church pastoral relationship around a complicated bereavement. That was a minister getting in too deep and not referring the person on to counselling.
I can give another for a family whose daughter died from complications following leukaemia and where certain members of the church, who prayed incredibly hard for the child to recover, still can't talk to that family. Because prayer failed.
I could give more ...
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My experience is that churches can be appalling at pastoral care.
I gave one example up thread of a bungled church pastoral relationship around a complicated bereavement. That was a minister getting in too deep and not referring the person on to counselling.
I can give another for a family whose daughter died from complications following leukaemia and where certain members of the church, who prayed incredibly hard for the child to recover, still can't talk to that family. Because prayer failed.
I could give more ...
and I could give examples of incompetent mental health professionals, who gave horrible advice, who drove people to despair or even suicide, who "crossed boundaries" and slept with their clients, etc etc etc. What's the point? there are incompetents in every professional, and we all make efforts to identify and root them out. That is no excuse for denying people the good pastoral care that is, 9 times out of 10, available to them, any more than the rare cases of abusive therapists is reason to deter people from seeking help.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Josephine, my point was that anorexia isn't simply caused by dieting.
I doubt it's simply caused by anything. If there were a single cause, we'd likely know it by now. But it's likely that any particular instance is "caused" by a combination of factors. But even there, to say "caused" is to say more than we know.
quote:
There is a known link to trauma. There's a known link to adolescence and mental health issues - 1 in 5 of anorexia nervosa deaths come from suicide.
True. Starvation tends to cause depression. And when you start eating again, you get a bit of energy before the depression lifts, so you're at a high risk of suicide. But knowing that doesn't tell you anything at all about what caused the patient to develop anorexia.
quote:
It is a complicated situation made up of a number of factors.
Absolutely.
quote:
I was challenging the assertion made by Twilight that it is caused by dieting because that isn't supported by the research.
[/b]
Weight loss seems to trigger anorexia in susceptible people. That does seem to be supported in the research. This page says:
quote:
The role of genetics on eating disorders is of particular interest to researchers. Our knowledge at this point indicates that genes load the gun and the environment pulls the trigger. We are far from knowing specific genes that cause eating disorders. There are a number of genes that work with environmental triggers. Dieting and loss of weight may influence the development of anorexia by turning on a gene that may influence an eating disorder.
quote:
[qb]And the reason I kept pushing that point was to try to discourage people who seemed to be thinking that anorexia nervosa is something easily dealt with pastorally in a church.
I haven't seen anyone suggest any such thing. Everyone seems to be aware that it's complicated and difficult. That doesn't mean that there's no role for pastoral care, or even for support from friends and other family.
[ 29. October 2013, 00:45: Message edited by: Josephine ]
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
In the United States, at least, the Church may be the only care option open to people suffering from mental illness. Even when treatment is an option, people still frequently to turn to the Church first in mental health situations—more often than today's falling rates of religiosity would lead one to believe.
While it's important for a parish leader to know when an issue is beyond his or her expertise, it's also important to be able to do what can be done in these situations.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Another point to make is that in the UK at least, the 'generalist' psychotherapist would not take on anorexic people as clients. They would normally go through their GP, and might then go to a hospital as an outpatient or inpatient, or possibly to a specialist clinic dealing with eating disorders.
So the treatment of these disorders is highly specialized, and I don't think that therapists would normally take somebody on, without that particular training, and without consulting a GP.
You would also often find that a care team would be involved, which might include paediatrician, dietitian, psychiatrist, and so on.
There are NHS clinics and private ones, and the latter will cost you an arm and a leg, but of course, for the NHS ones, there may well be a wait.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My experience is that churches can be appalling at pastoral care.
A lot of people can be very scathing about the Churches attempt at care. I know a person who won’t come to church because she did not get monthly home communion even though she was frequently (at least once a week) seen in the shops next to the church, And she tells everyone how crap we are. Frequently.
However Curiosity does have a point and I would like to add a couple of thoughts (which I hope fit in with this thread).
Practical help is as efficacious as prayer. The offer of a cooked meal, to drive them to a hospital appointment, to walk the dog. In my experience these tangible things mean a lot and are not stepping beyond our calling or skill set.
Good teaching about prayer. Its limits, Its possible outcomes they thought that God is working His purpose out and His will is being done. Not some faux one arm bandit where you put your prayer in and hope for the jackpot.
Not stepping beyond our calling and skill set. We are the Church, with good news of the Gospel, not social services, or doctors, or nurses, or counsellors. Clarity of purpose and a pretty extensive understanding of boundaries and confidentiality. This is at an individual and corporate level.
Fly safe, Pyx_e
[ 29. October 2013, 08:36: Message edited by: Pyx_e ]
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
My experience is that churches can be appalling at pastoral care.
I gave one example up thread of a bungled church pastoral relationship around a complicated bereavement. That was a minister getting in too deep and not referring the person on to counselling.
I can give another for a family whose daughter died from complications following leukaemia and where certain members of the church, who prayed incredibly hard for the child to recover, still can't talk to that family. Because prayer failed.
I could give more ...
Curiosity - you seem to be assuming that churches have access to counselling services. Actually they don't, anymore than any other member of society does. - they may have acquired knowledge of places that might provide counselling but they might not, as these things change frequently. Anyway they can only advise people not refer them.
It is even worse in the current climate couselling services are being cut everywhere. A family member with severe post natal depression, was told that there was a waiting list of 2-3 months for couselling - even if she was accepted.
There is a big difference between providing medical help and giving people caring and support.
If this person daughter had had a car accdient nobody would be saying don't get involved and don't talk to them about how they feel at the moment, because you can't mend broken legs, that's for the doctor to do.
We would be saying give them the help that you can. As somebody else has said often the best help is practical - can we give a lift, childmind, provide a meal etc. Why should they be cut off form this just becasu ethier daughter has a different sort of problem.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I know my 14 year old daughter insisted on being taken off the church prayer list (it wasn't a request from me that put her on) because she didn't want to be gossiped about. Although she was long term ill she wasn't anorexic. As I thought she was entitled to make those sorts of decisions, I requested the removal of her name.
She shouldn't have been on the prayer list without permission in the first place. This is soemthing church members are very bad at, recognising that people might have problems but might not want to be public.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Practical help is as efficacious as prayer. The offer of a cooked meal, to drive them to a hospital appointment, to walk the dog. In my experience these tangible things mean a lot and are not stepping beyond our calling or skill set.
I know - I hope I know - that you weren't referring to this specific case here, Pyx_e. But it's one of the reasons why I say - not to priests, but to Other People - please don't try to help, just try not to harm.
When my brother was starving himself to death, one of the kindly-meant things certain people did was bring food to the house.
I'm crying now remembering the additional pain that caused us, even when we'd thought we'd got to the point when nothing could feel any worse.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
Good teaching about prayer. Its limits, Its possible outcomes they thought that God is working His purpose out and His will is being done. Not some faux one arm bandit where you put your prayer in and hope for the jackpot.
Fly safe, Pyx_e
Amen Pyx_e. Prayer has been extremely helpful to me even at the worst of times. He may not always grant my wishes, but He always grants me peace.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I know - I hope I know - that you weren't referring to this specific case here, Pyx_e.
The OP suggests the teenager concerned with anorexia has been admitted to hospital - so presumably the implication is a cooked meal for the family left at home rather than the bizarre view that bringing round food for someone with anorexia might help.
The problem with the advice "just try not to harm" is that that leads to an isolated family.
I have seen this in bereavement as well - people wish desperately to avoid saying the wrong thing, and so say nothing. And so the bereaved become pariahs, an embarrassment to their friends, and people visit less often than before the bereavement. I don't think this is the answer.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I know - I hope I know - that you weren't referring to this specific case here, Pyx_e.
The OP suggests the teenager concerned with anorexia has been admitted to hospital - so presumably the implication is a cooked meal for the family left at home rather than the bizarre view that bringing round food for someone with anorexia might help.
The problem with the advice "just try not to harm" is that that leads to an isolated family.
I have seen this in bereavement as well - people wish desperately to avoid saying the wrong thing, and so say nothing. And so the bereaved become pariahs, an embarrassment to their friends, and people visit less often than before the bereavement. I don't think this is the answer.
I don't think it *is* like bereavement. People are concerned about saying "the wrong thing" to the bereaved, but they are highly unlikely to clumsily imply that the bereaved person actually killed their loved one.
In my recollection - and obviously, my memories of this time are very faulty - almost everything anyone said implied that we had caused/worsened/contributed in some way to my brother's illness, through action or inaction.
I think - and this is my experience only - that it's a lot more like being the relative of an addict than the relative of a someone with an illness.
Time is the thing that has helped the most.
[ 29. October 2013, 11:05: Message edited by: Erroneous Monk ]
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think - and this is my experience only - that it's a lot more like being the relative of an addict than the relative of a someone with an illness.
This was obviously a tough time and I haven't experienced anorexia in a family member, although I've had family members with serious illness. But I do not see why this should be an unavoidable problem. Surely once people are educated that such implications aren't appropriate, then healthy pastoral care or friendly support can resume?
You have clearly been justifiably hurt by what has happened to you and I don't wish to minimise that, but the conclusion that no-one can ever get it right and they should all be warned off seems to me like it may result in hurt as well.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I think - and this is my experience only - that it's a lot more like being the relative of an addict than the relative of a someone with an illness.
This was obviously a tough time and I haven't experienced anorexia in a family member, although I've had family members with serious illness. But I do not see why this should be an unavoidable problem. Surely once people are educated that such implications aren't appropriate, then healthy pastoral care or friendly support can resume?
You have clearly been justifiably hurt by what has happened to you and I don't wish to minimise that, but the conclusion that no-one can ever get it right and they should all be warned off seems to me like it may result in hurt as well.
You are, of course, right.
I read something recently that seemed to say that - in a medical sense - wounds never really heal, and under certain circumstances, old injuries can simply re-open.
That's so true.
People didn't mean any hurt then and you certainly don't now, and nor do the other kind people on this thread. I probably need not to be here.
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I read something recently that seemed to say that - in a medical sense - wounds never really heal, and under certain circumstances, old injuries can simply re-open.
Very true. And I'm sorry for your hurt - indeed no, I didn't mean to cause further hurt either. Thank you for being charitable despite your hurt.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
I wonder if threads like this should have a warning attached to them, as they can easily restimulate people, and bring back the pain of it all. I suppose then you would have to put warnings on about half the threads though.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I wonder if threads like this should have a warning attached to them, as they can easily restimulate people, and bring back the pain of it all. I suppose then you would have to put warnings on about half the threads though.
In this case, the title of the thread serves as a warning. Those of us more intimately acquainted with anorexia than we would ever have wanted to be can choose to click or not. Sometimes, of course, we might choose to click, not realizing that we are still more vulnerable than we thought. But no blame to anyone else for discussing this topic on a discussion board.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by Erroneous Monk:
I read something recently that seemed to say that - in a medical sense - wounds never really heal, and under certain circumstances, old injuries can simply re-open.
Very true. And I'm sorry for your hurt - indeed no, I didn't mean to cause further hurt either. Thank you for being charitable despite your hurt.
I want to echo everything mdijon said. I was being too defensive about my own puny concerns when I should have been modeling the compassion I was arguing for.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
[ 29. October 2013, 12:55: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
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Posted
Taking food to the family of an anorexic is likely to be even more hurtful than you might realise. One of the things that anorexics commonly do is cook and feed others, but not themselves. So everyone else is groaning with the amount of cake and biscuits they're being fed. It almost feels as if the anorexic is trying to fatten up their nearest and dearest as they starve themselves. Where I've seen this it seems to be an additional control over the food the whole family eats.
Zacchaeus - I realise counselling services are being cut, but are churches really equipped to provide support? Do they have the right skills and knowledge? And can they maintain professional boundaries and distance when dealing with difficult situations within their local community? Which is worse: waiting for the appropriate service and support or having untrained, well-meaning support by people out of their depth and starting with different suppositions?
I've seen well-meaning people cause worse problems thinking they can help, not just in churches but in schools too. Rather than saying that this is outside my understanding and knowledge and other than being a listening ear and offering practical help, I really don't have the knowledge to advise you - you do need to take this to professional support via the GP or whatever, they continue to blunder on regardless. And make a bad situation worse.
Surely one of the skills of pastoral support is recognising that a situation is more complicated than can be dealt with pastorally and supporting the person involved to access other appropriate support, counselling or whatever?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
Whether or not the anorexic cooked, if they're not there to cook, food may be a practical use. It sucks to come home from a hospital and still need to cook. Also, I want to strongly agree with everyone who doesn't think we should avoid doing anything that may injure anyone. Because I am quite sure that doing nothing can also injure. When I lost my teenaged brother I don't remember who said the stupid things, though some did, but I remember who knit me the scarf and sent the lovely note. That really helped. I remember who brought those tamales. etc.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
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Posted
No, Gwai, food for the family of an anorexic is a bloody minefield. Every meal time for months was a battle trying to get my sister to eat something or if she did allow a morsel through her lips, to eat more. It made family meals, which we were made to sit down to every day and take part in, an unpleasant experience. She'd bake cakes and biscuits, chocolate croissants for breakfast, and we were surrounded by sugary treats. I still feel sick at the thought of it and can't stand pain au chocolat or most of those croissants.
Anyone turning up with food would not have been welcome. Just remembering it is making me realise why I don't like certain foods.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Gwai
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# 11076
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Posted
I didn't say it would be welcome though. What I am trying to say is that there is something MUCH MUCH MUCH worse. To suspect that no one gives a shit. To have frightened everyone off by threats of possible offense. To assume everyone knows so much about own's own problems that one excoriates them for offenses they could not have possibly expected. To be isolated because someone else was offended and touchy years ago.*
To elaborate on what I said before, when someone said something particularly hurtful when my brother died, it wasn't their fault. They didn't know. It's much better that they tried to be caring and comforting--and utterly failed on the comforting--than that they abandoned us in our misery.
*CK: Note that none of these possibilities are meant to refer to you. I am trying to paint what I see as a worst case scenario. You know what suffering was like for you. I know what it was like for me. You're not an expert on what it will be like for Joe Bloggs and neither am I.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Zacchaeus - I realise counselling services are being cut, but are churches really equipped to provide support? Do they have the right skills and knowledge? And can they maintain professional boundaries and distance when dealing with difficult situations within their local community? Which is worse: waiting for the appropriate service and support or having untrained, well-meaning support by people out of their depth and starting with different suppositions?
I've seen well-meaning people cause worse problems thinking they can help, not just in churches but in schools too. Rather than saying that this is outside my understanding and knowledge and other than being a listening ear and offering practical help, I really don't have the knowledge to advise you - you do need to take this to professional support via the GP or whatever, they continue to blunder on regardless. And make a bad situation worse.
Surely one of the skills of pastoral support is recognising that a situation is more complicated than can be dealt with pastorally and supporting the person involved to access other appropriate support, counselling or whatever?
I would agree. One of the reasons you get the negative attitude towards pastoral care we've seen here is because of the confusion about the difference between pastoral care/spiritual direction and therapeutic counseling. It's pretty obvious I'm a firm believer in spiritual direction/pastoral care-- but it is very, very different from the sort of care offered by MFTs and other mental health professionals. Both are important, both are needed, both work together to bring holistic healing-- but in very different ways. Expecting the pastor/priest to act as cut-rate therapist is, indeed, a recipe for disaster. Rather, clergy can act both as referral to competent therapists (hopefully including some with sliding scales) and as an advocate working for greater public funding for mental health care.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
I didn't say it would be welcome though. What I am trying to say is that there is something MUCH MUCH MUCH worse. To suspect that no one gives a shit. To have frightened everyone off by threats of possible offense. To assume everyone knows so much about own's own problems that one excoriates them for offenses they could not have possibly expected. To be isolated because someone else was offended and touchy years ago.*
To elaborate on what I said before, when someone said something particularly hurtful when my brother died, it wasn't their fault. They didn't know. It's much better that they tried to be caring and comforting--and utterly failed on the comforting--than that they abandoned us in our misery.
I would agree that doing something is usually better than doing nothing, because it IS important to show that you care, that the family is not alone. Good communication is key. Asking questions. None of us can be expected to be an expert in every disease, every disorder, every disaster, so none of us can know what would/would not be helpful in any particular situation. So we should ask. We should ask if a meal would be helpful-- and expect families to answer honestly (i.e. treat them like adults). Then listen, and respond appropriately. If a meal is not helpful, don't bring one. Maybe a ride would be useful-- or someone to come clean the house once a week, or rent a movie to get your mind off it all. Ask, and listen.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
There seems to be some confusion here over support and treatment – we have not said that anybody should treat the family, support it s vey different thing. For instance how would a hurting family feel if everybody ignored their hurt and carried on as usual – which is what it would mean without support, nobody would ask how are you? Is there anything I can do for you? Provide a space to be still in the storm.
Churches in the UK are not referral places to counselling, it is not their remit, though as I said sometimes they have contacts in the community but often not, it can might depend on the personal contacts of the church members. Such referral should come from the medical and social services, and it was not suggested that the church was a replacement for counselling – it is a very different role altogether.
Taking food was only suggested, along with things like offering lifts, childminding, in the context of a family with a hospital inpatient who may not have the time and energy to come home and start cooking a meal, not as a form of help to the person suffering from anorexia.
So many things are going to be personal to each family, in fact to every family who is suffering for what ever reason. That it will be impossible to have a totally correct list here of practical things that might or might not help, that is where you need to know the individuals involved, but surely it is worse to ignore the family? That is really going to make them feel stigmatised and abandoned.
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Josephine
Orthodox Belle
# 3899
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
I've seen well-meaning people cause worse problems thinking they can help, not just in churches but in schools too. Rather than saying that this is outside my understanding and knowledge and other than being a listening ear and offering practical help, I really don't have the knowledge to advise you - you do need to take this to professional support via the GP or whatever, they continue to blunder on regardless. And make a bad situation worse.
I think the listening ear and offers of practical help are exactly what the people here who are saying "support the family" are talking about. Not pretending that you are qualified to provide treatment. But you are qualified to listen and offer practical help, and refusing to do either one of those for the family members who do not have anorexia because it might upset the family member who has anorexia is to give the anorexic an unhealthy level of control over the rest of the family.
And it feeds the shame and stigma that everyone in the family is already dealing with. As has been noted, no one would turn away a friend whose child had cancer and tell them, "You shouldn't talk about this; it's violating their privacy." You don't have any illusions that you can treat the child's cancer -- but you can still be there for the family, listening, helping in whatever practical ways they find helpful that you can do.
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I've written a book! Catherine's Pascha: A celebration of Easter in the Orthodox Church. It's a lovely book for children. Take a look!
Posts: 10273 | From: Pacific Northwest, USA | Registered: Jan 2003
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
The opening post referred to someone within the church
quote:
At the pastoral level, there is the problem of a prominent figure in the church who is into Jay Adams, and is therefore taking the line that her problem is to be dealt with by her facing up to the alleged root cause, ie her disobedient and rebellious attitude, and repenting of it.
So talking about inappropriate pastoral care was in response to the OP.
And in that situation, how do you persuade one person who is convinced of their rightness that they cannot be pastorally involved without laying down guidelines for the whole church?
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
I don't think anyone is arguing that there shouldn't be guidelines.
[ 29. October 2013, 17:46: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Josephine
But if my son, as a 15 year old, had had cancer, I would have been very wary about talking about him to others. I could have talked about myself, and my own reactions, upset, and so on, but it would be a different kettle of fish with regard to him, especially in terms of details of his illness, his own reactions, the treatments, and so on. He is separate from me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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mdijon
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# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
He is separate from me.
But not very. You can't talk about your reactions without mentioning some details of him. You don't need to describe the secret fears he confided in you one night, the argument you overheard with his girlfriend or the rash the chemo gave him around his bottom, but you are going to have to talk about some things. Provided you are talking with pastors, close friends and in sensible ways I don't see the need to be "very wary" - just sensible.
[ 29. October 2013, 17:50: Message edited by: mdijon ]
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Zacchaeus
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# 14454
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Posted
Surely the OP was lookihg for help in how to support in the light of how bad the leader was..
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
He is separate from me.
But not very. You can't talk about your reactions without mentioning some details of him. You don't need to describe the secret fears he confided in you one night, the argument you overheard with his girlfriend or the rash the chemo gave him around his bottom, but you are going to have to talk about some things. Provided you are talking with pastors, close friends and in sensible ways I don't see the need to be "very wary" - just sensible.
Well, I notice you are drawing some boundaries here, so that secret fears, girl-friends, and bottoms, are not up for discussion. Why not?
How about a 15 year old daughter with ovarian cancer? Would you go into details about her? I wouldn't.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zacchaeus:
Surely the OP was lookihg for help in how to support in the light of how bad the leader was..
Not entirely, because he is one of a number of leaders, the others do not share his views and, as I said, the parents are avoiding him.
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
He is separate from me.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
But not very. You can't talk about your reactions without mentioning some details of him. You don't need to describe the secret fears he confided in you one night, the argument you overheard with his girlfriend or the rash the chemo gave him around his bottom, but you are going to have to talk about some things. Provided you are talking with pastors, close friends and in sensible ways I don't see the need to be "very wary" - just sensible.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, I notice you are drawing some boundaries here, so that secret fears, girl-friends, and bottoms, are not up for discussion. Why not?
Just being sensible.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
How about a 15 year old daughter with ovarian cancer? Would you go into details about her? I wouldn't.
It depends what you call a detail. I would think it OK to name the diagnosis - it seems quite odd to unburden oneself talking about some nameless cancer. I might say she is having an operation. I probably wouldn't go into details about whether it is a partial or total hysterectomy. I might mention that she is having chemo. I probably wouldn't mention embarrassing side effects of the chemo.
That is where I would draw the boundaries. I don't sense whether you are arguing that there is no basis for drawing any sort of boundary and therefore we shouldn't say anything, or that my boundaries are too liberal or something else?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
mdijon
Well, ironically, we seem to be arguing for similar kinds of boundaries! It's people without them who disturb me.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Taliesin
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# 14017
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Posted
Curiosity, no one who hasn't lived through it really gets how awful it is, how complicated, how convoluted and tense and far reaching.
Those of you trying to compare mental illness to cancer don't seem to understand a fundamental difference between medical and mental health services and societies attitude to each.
I'm not going to try and talk about my experience here, but I will say how incredibly helpful my housegroup was, and what release I felt when an elderly man in our congregation, during a cafe style service, shared with me how his daughter was anorexic years ago. It was terrible, but now she is better, got married, had children and grandchildren.
If he, a living saint, had a child with a mental illness, specifically an eating disorder, then maybe it's not entirely my fault.
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Provided you are talking with pastors, close friends and in sensible ways I don't see the need to be "very wary" - just sensible.
I agree - this goes for anything which that is troubling us we talk about (Which nine times out of ten will be concerning friends and family). We can't stay silent, that's not healthy or natural imo.
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Garden. Room. Walk
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