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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Mars Hill & Bethel
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The issue with disaffected culty-church members turning to other churches is that often they have no context with which to evaluate other churches...if they come from non-church backgrounds, as far as they know all Christian churches toe the same theological/ideological party line.
I remember, several years ago, meeting a Wiccan who was stunned to learn that there were female clergy in Christendom, or that at least some of us are affirming of LGBT people, or that we weren't all political right-wingers. She just didn't know.
As far as that goes, one of my former coworkers, RC, was shocked to learn that my church's liturgy followed the form of the Mass, held weekly Eucharists, had a sacramental understanding of Holy Baptism and the Eucharist, etc. "I just thought all Protestants were like Baptists," she said.
Those are the sorts of assumptions that can keep people out of mainline Protestant churches.
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Simul iustus et peccator
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
especially when folks like Driscoll (and Pat Robertson, and...) are so good at getting press.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
Absolutely. When our denom elected its first female bishop, Elizabeth Eaton, a few weeks ago, she made the rounds of MSM talking-head shows and newspaper interviews...my thrill at having our bishop get national press was actually secondary to my thrill at having someone other than Pat Robertson, Franklin Graham or the like being trotted out as the usual media representative of American Christianity.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It'd be very interesting to know how the mainstream churches in the area are responding to the presence of Driscoll's church(es).
Depends on what you mean by 'mainstream' - I presume you don't mean 'mainline'. Most of them are just continuing to do what they've always done without much fuss - largely unaffected by the nutjob down the road.
I'm referring to the historical churches.
For example, some of them might be gaining new members as people decide to move on from Driscoll's movement. Others might be forced to become more creative as a way of competing with the 'nutjobs' whose church down the road is growing. If Driscoll's movement has stoked up some kind of revival atmosphere in local communities then other churches might benefit from that, in the way that the British Baptists benefitted from the growth of Methodism in the 18th and 19th centuries. Or the opposite might be true - having a Reformed conservative church in their vicinity might help them to become more aware of their own theological distinctiveness.
Churches should keep an eye on what's happening around them, even if they disapprove of most of it.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LutheranChik:
The issue with disaffected culty-church members turning to other churches is that often they have no context with which to evaluate other churches...if they come from non-church backgrounds, as far as they know all Christian churches toe the same theological/ideological party line.
I remember, several years ago, meeting a Wiccan who was stunned to learn that there were female clergy in Christendom, or that at least some of us are affirming of LGBT people, or that we weren't all political right-wingers. She just didn't know.
As far as that goes, one of my former coworkers, RC, was shocked to learn that my church's liturgy followed the form of the Mass, held weekly Eucharists, had a sacramental understanding of Holy Baptism and the Eucharist, etc. "I just thought all Protestants were like Baptists," she said.
Those are the sorts of assumptions that can keep people out of mainline Protestant churches.
These are very good points. I find that there is a staggering amount of ignorance generally today about Christian churches. I meet people who think that all Christians are creationists, or are homophobic, or are basically stupid,or right-wing, as you say. I'm not sure how this has happened, partly lack of education I suppose, and maybe also some prejudice. In discussions, it leads to a lot of straw men being built, of the form 'of course, you believe that ...<ludicrous idea>'
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
It'd be very interesting to know how the mainstream churches in the area are responding to the presence of Driscoll's church(es).
Depends on what you mean by 'mainstream' - I presume you don't mean 'mainline'. Most of them are just continuing to do what they've always done without much fuss - largely unaffected by the nutjob down the road.
I'm referring to the historical churches.
For example, some of them might be gaining new members as people decide to move on from Driscoll's movement. Others might be forced to become more creative as a way of competing with the 'nutjobs' whose church down the road is growing. If Driscoll's movement has stoked up some kind of revival atmosphere in local communities then other churches might benefit from that, in the way that the British Baptists benefitted from the growth of Methodism in the 18th and 19th centuries. Or the opposite might be true - having a Reformed conservative church in their vicinity might help them to become more aware of their own theological distinctiveness.
Churches should keep an eye on what's happening around them, even if they disapprove of most of it.
Yes, all of that is possibly true. Which is precisely why we need this sort of discussion. While, again, we should keep in mind ButchCassidy's apt reminder to let our talk be "seasoned with grace", we also need to be clear about the distinctions between what those "historic" mainstream churches are doing and teaching and the shenanigans going down at Mars Hill. If we're going to learn from their mistakes, we need to be clear about what those mistakes are. If we're going to present an alternative picture of Christ to Driscoll's hyper-masculinized alpha-dog warrior Jesus, then we need to understand exactly what Driscoll is saying and doing.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
(tangent): quetzalcoatl, dude, I am lovin' your tagline.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I'm not very familiar with Mars Hill, Bethel etc. but I'm unsure if they really manage to convert many atheists. I wonder what the background of their adherents is.
[ 08. November 2013, 00:10: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If we're going to present an alternative picture of Christ to Driscoll's hyper-masculinized alpha-dog warrior Jesus, then we need to understand exactly what Driscoll is saying and doing.
I wouldn't disagree about the importance of greater understanding.
It occurs to me that 'Driscoll's hyper-masculinized alpha-dog warrior Jesus' might be a reaction (or overreaction) against the Jesus of the historical denominations. Is it an attack on 'gentle Jesus, meek and mild'?
Perhaps the value in having such polar opposites on full view is that those of us who are uneasy with both understandings of Jesus can see what the extremes look like and so have a better idea of how to explore a middle path. But I suppose that's no consolation to those people who are at either end and see only error on the horizon.
[ 08. November 2013, 00:37: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
If we're going to present an alternative picture of Christ to Driscoll's hyper-masculinized alpha-dog warrior Jesus, then we need to understand exactly what Driscoll is saying and doing.
I wouldn't disagree about the importance of greater understanding.
It occurs to me that 'Driscoll's hyper-masculinized alpha-dog warrior Jesus' might be a reaction (or overreaction) against the Jesus of the historical denominations. Is it an attack on 'gentle Jesus, meek and mild'?
Perhaps the value in having such polar opposites on full view is that those of us who are uneasy with both understandings of Jesus can see what the extremes look like and so have a better idea of how to explore a middle path. But I suppose that's no consolation to those people who are at either end and see only error on the horizon.
Yes, it is a reaction to the pacifist (Driscoll says "pansy"-- see my link above) Jesus that other evangelicals such as Shane Clairborne and Jim Wallis have advocated (I don't know that Driscoll would recognize a non-evangelical theologian if s/he bit him on the a**). And count me then as one of those "extreme" people who sees only error on Driscoll's end of the horizon.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Tangent:
quote:
Originally posted by art dunce:
Astral projection.
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif) touche
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm referring to the historical churches.
The historical churches in that part of Washington state are largely conservative Reformed churches.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
I'm not very familiar with Mars Hill, Bethel etc. but I'm unsure if they really manage to convert many atheists. I wonder what the background of their adherents is.
Mars Hill reminds me of the church I grew up in - especially in the control it attempts to exert on its members' lives, from their daily schedule to what they're up to in the bedroom. There is a very sad story on Slate about an ex-member who was shunned after doing what to me seems the right thing - confessing a serious sin to church leadership.
Mark Driscoll faces backlash over chuch discipline
Now speaking of the church I'm familiar with, the majority of members roped in are Christians, perhaps lapsed in some way, who are convinced that the "real" way to be a Christian is to be 100% committed to the church and submit to any and all instruction and discipline from leadership. Acts 2 tends to be an important passage for churches like this.
I would be very surprised if people without any religious background at all would get involved in a group like that, because at its heart it relies on someone thinking "Well I do believe in Jesus, maybe I do need to work harder for salvation...these guys might be onto something."
[Edited to fix scroll lock. Gwai]
[ 08. November 2013, 13:24: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
I would be very surprised if people without any religious background at all would get involved in a group like that
The difference is in the US context a lot of non-religious people have religious backgrounds (either via parents, or more rarely grandparents), and Mars Hill has been successful in reaching these people at least initially by impressing them with a far more committed sort Christianity.
Of course, a lot of them have either burnt out or moved on to other churches as they grow out of their 20s.
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Arminian
Shipmate
# 16607
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Posted
I'm an ex New Frontiers member, and I'm still recovering from the mind control and damage that they inflicted on me by their 'system'. Its not just the theology but the hierarchical control mechanisms that these churches set up. To question the leadership is to question God. There is no real democracy.
I don't know the exact set up at Mars hill but it wouldn't surprise me if its similar from what I've read. I did try to find out from them what Mark Driscoll pays himself. They couldn't tell me - the pastors salaries are added together and only a joint figure is published. Similarly I could not find out what Terry Virgo earnt. Not knowing what your leader earns is not a good advert for transparency. If they are claiming that they are so 'anointed' that members don't need to know they they are seriously abusing their position of power.
The flaw in these restorationalist outfits is that church history shows us that early Christians had an entirely different church model of small largely autonomous groups in a house church setting, without a paid priest lording it over them. Driscoll, Virgo and the rest of them have by intent or by accident taken the place of God in the minds of some of their congregation by demanding compliance and obedience, and by failing to put into place democratic structures that properly allow for checks and balances. These church structures are ripe for abuse, and abusers to take advantage of IMO. They may serve the needs of narcissistic alpha males, but they are a world away from what St Paul and Christ gave the early church.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The difference is in the US context a lot of non-religious people have religious backgrounds (either via parents, or more rarely grandparents), and Mars Hill has been successful in reaching these people at least initially by impressing them with a far more committed sort Christianity.
That's the type of person I meant by "lapsed" as opposed to an outright atheist. Probably used the wrong word. But a lot of the recruiting plays on the idea that the potential new member didn't ever "really understand" Christianity.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The historical churches in that part of Washington state are largely conservative Reformed churches.
So these particular local churches wouldn't necessarily be very anti-Driscoll? That's interesting.
Which local churches have actually come out as being totally against what he's doing, then?
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
A lot of the recruiting plays on the idea that the potential new member didn't ever "really understand" Christianity.
To be fair, though, every kind of church is happy to receive the drop-outs from other churches.
In England the CofE and the Methodists are happy to receive escapees from Pentecostalism, and the New Churches, etc., and the Pentecostals and the New Churches are happy to receive escapees from the Methodists and the CofE. In terms of who 'really' understands Christianity before switching churches, I suppose we'd have to establish what kind of Christian commitment these people have before moving. Do they often move seamlessly from one church to the other, or is there more usually a period of relative religious indifference or rejection in between? If it's often the latter then it's hard to imagine any congregation not seeing that as a significant transformation in the individual's life. Maybe the church's response depends on exactly how transgressive the individual's interim period is judged to have been.
Few churches make much headway with serious, committed, lifelong atheists, though there are always exceptions.
[ 08. November 2013, 12:36: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
I'm talking about recruitment tactics, not picking up other churches' dropouts. This is something specific to growth-oriented evangelical churches and isn't the same as an ex-Methodist attending a CofE service and having the vicar ask if he is interested in coming back again next week.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The historical churches in that part of Washington state are largely conservative Reformed churches.
So these particular local churches wouldn't necessarily be very anti-Driscoll? That's interesting.
Which local churches have actually come out as being totally against what he's doing, then?
Driscoll would be largely irrelevant to them as they wouldn't consider him to be particularly Reformed and consider him at best to be a kind of evangelical sideshow of the sort that they have had from time to time.
Look - there are few churches on which there is more information available on the web than Mars Hill and the Acts 29 movement. You can continue to make up interesting sounding theories for why you think things are the way they are ..
.. or you could, you know, actually engage with some of this material before speculating.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arminian:
The flaw in these restorationalist outfits is that church history shows us that early Christians had an entirely different church model of small largely autonomous groups in a house church setting, without a paid priest lording it over them. Driscoll, Virgo and the rest of them have by intent or by accident taken the place of God in the minds of some of their congregation by demanding compliance and obedience, and by failing to put into place democratic structures that properly allow for checks and balances.
Yes, I think you're right with all this, except that I wouldn't quite describe how the NT church functioned as 'democratic'. Rather, ISTM they sought consensus among themselves, granted with rather pointed and strident arguments at times!
But it wasn't that anyone could command others; indeed this would (ISTM...) directly contradict Jesus' teaching on what leadership and authority should look like among his followers.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
chris stiles
I'm here to muse and to ask questions of people who are much more knowledgeable than myself. You've already been helpful enough to answer some of my questions, but if they're beneath you, just ignore them. That's fine by me.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But it wasn't that anyone could command others; indeed this would (ISTM...) directly contradict Jesus' teaching on what leadership and authority should look like among his followers.
The problem is that it's basically impossible to get a group of people living in modern Western society to reasonably replicate anything like 1st century church practices, without a heavy dose of top-down control.
I read a lot about Restorationism due to my experience in one of these churches, and I have yet to find an example of one that does not exert non-Biblical levels of control over their members. Historically when a large group within a Restorationist church has questioned these practices, there has been a split. See - Church of Christ (conservative Restorationist) and Disciples of Christ.
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But it wasn't that anyone could command others; indeed this would (ISTM...) directly contradict Jesus' teaching on what leadership and authority should look like among his followers.
The problem is that it's basically impossible to get a group of people living in modern Western society to reasonably replicate anything like 1st century church practices, without a heavy dose of top-down control.
I read a lot about Restorationism due to my experience in one of these churches, and I have yet to find an example of one that does not exert non-Biblical levels of control over their members. Historically when a large group within a Restorationist church has questioned these practices, there has been a split. See - Church of Christ (conservative Restorationist) and Disciples of Christ.
I'm going to put this as politely as possible. You claim that you've "experienced" one church. Your experience is not at all normative. I come from the very conservative end of the churches of Christ and what you describe is not at all accurate. I know you do not know what you are talking about because if you knew anything of the Disciples of Christ- a mainline, liberal group- you would know what you wrote was down right false.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
I'm going to put this as politely as possible. You claim that you've "experienced" one church. Your experience is not at all normative. I come from the very conservative end of the churches of Christ and what you describe is not at all accurate. I know you do not know what you are talking about because if you knew anything of the Disciples of Christ- a mainline, liberal group- you would know what you wrote was down right false.
There are a great many Church of Christ ex-member websites that suggest my experience is not very rare.
Yours may differ of course.
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
The historical churches in that part of Washington state are largely conservative Reformed churches.
So these particular local churches wouldn't necessarily be very anti-Driscoll? That's interesting.
I'm not sure what Chris meant by the comment, but I can assure you that is not the case. Having spent most of my professional career serving in a Reformed denomination which has a megachurch up there in Mars Hill's backyard, the fact that they are Reformed in the loosest sense of the term does not at all translate into approval of Driscoll's shenanigans. Calvin himself would probably beat him over the head with a beer stein if he could.
Most shipmates here know that in recent years I've become pretty disenchanted with Reformed theology (while still appreciating Reformed polity). But I'd far, far, far rather see someone in one of those conservative Reformed churches than in Driscoll's.
[ 08. November 2013, 14:50: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
But it wasn't that anyone could command others; indeed this would (ISTM...) directly contradict Jesus' teaching on what leadership and authority should look like among his followers.
The problem is that it's basically impossible to get a group of people living in modern Western society to reasonably replicate anything like 1st century church practices, without a heavy dose of top-down control.
I don't (yet!) share your cynicism - or realism, as you might prefer to call it... ![[Smile]](smile.gif) Not that this collaborative, consensus-seeking approach is something I've experienced, but I have read enough examples of it kind of working (I mean, working but not without bumps along the way) to keep up my sense of hope that it's possible.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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chris stiles
Shipmate
# 12641
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
chris stiles
I'm here to muse and to ask questions of people who are much more knowledgeable than myself. You've already been helpful enough to answer some of my questions, but if they're beneath you, just ignore them. That's fine by me.
Sure, but you aren't just asking questions - you are taking small amounts of information and then drawing the wrong conclusions (see cliffdwellers post).
Look, if you want to know Driscoll's theology a large amount of his sermons are on accessible on the web, the author of the wenatcheethehatchet blog has written extensively on Mars Hills and Acts 29's governance - he happened to be a part of one of the early accountability mechanisms in Mars Hill.
Mars Hill tends to appropriate conventional words to describe itself, but mean something different by these words. I don't mean to imply there is something necessarily sinister in all this - think of it as more a form of branding rather than category.
quote:
cliffdweller:
I'm not sure what Chris meant by the comment, but I can assure you that is not the case.
See my comment up thread, I agree that it's not the case.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I don't (yet!) share your cynicism - or realism, as you might prefer to call it... Not that this collaborative, consensus-seeking approach is something I've experienced, but I have read enough examples of it kind of working (I mean, working but not without bumps along the way) to keep up my sense of hope that it's possible.
I should take a step back - didn't mean to be so negative!
I believe that it can work on a small-scale, house church type of basis, absolutely. Because it's impossible to function in a church that is actually a local community, without grace and forgiveness making up a huge part of fellowship. There's no leader/member divide in such a church, so you don't have someone who doesn't know your personal situation telling you that you're not "being a Berean" when you're really struggling with something. It's a friend and Christian brother or sister who knows you.
But a larger group or umbrella that insists on using Acts/1st century church as the benchmark - from my observation they tend towards legalism in an effort to make sure the "restoration" is maintained.
There is another poster here disputing my experience, but if you have not heard of the Church of Christ - this is a group that has schismed over the use of musical instruments in church services, because the New Testament doesn't feature them. And as mentioned some of these churches have removed elders whose wives passed away, to match the Timothy description. So I would call that excessive control in order to adhere to an unrealistic standard, of the 1st century church.
Mars Hill with its attempts to read into the New Testament so deeply, as to come away with guidance on sexual positions - now that reminds me of stuff I have seen before and it makes me very sympathetic to the people who are in the middle of it.
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
[QB\]
There is another poster here disputing my experience, but if you have not heard of the Church of Christ - this is a group that has schismed over the use of musical instruments in church services, because the New Testament doesn't feature them. And as mentioned some of these churches have removed elders whose wives passed away, to match the Timothy description. So I would call that excessive control in order to adhere to an unrealistic standard, of the 1st century church. [/QB]
By this standard any adherence to some sort of doctrinal conformity is "controlling". You might as well say the RC Church and the Orthodox are controlling for insisting in a male only priesthood.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Prester John: You might as well say the RC Church and the Orthodox are controlling for insisting in a male only priesthood.
Well...
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
quote:
[QB\]
There is another poster here disputing my experience, but if you have not heard of the Church of Christ - this is a group that has schismed over the use of musical instruments in church services, because the New Testament doesn't feature them. And as mentioned some of these churches have removed elders whose wives passed away, to match the Timothy description. So I would call that excessive control in order to adhere to an unrealistic standard, of the 1st century church.
By this standard any adherence to some sort of doctrinal conformity is "controlling". You might as well say the RC Church and the Orthodox are controlling for insisting in a male only priesthood. [/QB]
Many things exist on a continuum that doesn't lend itself well to this sort of black-and-white thinking. Authoritarianism is one of those things. Every organization is authoritarian to some degree-- you have some sort of identifying characteristic that draws you all together, and have to be "authoritarian" to at least some degree to maintain your identity, whether you're a church or a group of model train enthusiasts.
I find the premise intriguing (I went to a C of C college)-- that restorationist movements are inherently going to need to be relatively more authoritarian than most other churches due to the inherent challenges of maintaining a community life that is rooted in a different cultural context. That doesn't mean, of course, that other churches won't be authoritarian for completely other reasons. It would simply mean that restorationism does not lend itself well to more personal autonomy. I don't know if that's true, but find the thesis interesting. It would make a great doctoral dissertation.
[ 08. November 2013, 15:45: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Prester John
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# 5502
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Posted
Include the COE then. Only priests, of whatever gender, are allowed to preside. What a bunch of control freaks.
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Prester John:
By this standard any adherence to some sort of doctrinal conformity is "controlling". You might as well say the RC Church and the Orthodox are controlling for insisting in a male only priesthood.
If anyone wants to know more about the Restorationists, I would suggest Flavil Yeakley's "Why They Left: Listening to Those Who Have Left Churches of Christ." He is a member and there is a series of blog posts by another member here reviewing the book in detail.
http://oneinjesus.info/2012/04/15/churches-of-christ-why-they-left-chapter-1/
A quote from the blog:
quote:
Clearly, the more conservative versions of Churches of Christ are driving our children away from Jesus. I can see no other way to read the data. They grow up hating attending church, and have no interest in merely changing brands.
And I’m sure all the readers have friends (or former friends) who’ve been driven away from Jesus by the legalists among us. This is no surprise — as very sad as it is.
Those churches retain only 40% of their own. Therefore, they will rapidly decline in numbers and die. It may take a few decades, but their time is past if they don’t repent.
PJ I will not deny your experience but the book and blog provide a lot of insight into what others in that tradition have lived with and the negative impacts it has had on their desire to continue in a relationship with God. That is a serious problem and one that any Christian should be deeply worried about.
Mars Hill sounds like the same old story with a shiny new bow on it.
[ 08. November 2013, 15:49: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Prester John: Include the COE then. Only priests, of whatever gender, are allowed to preside. What a bunch of control freaks.
I'm not a member of the CoE. My church doesn't have priests or clergy, any member of the community can preside.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
You aren't just asking questions - you are taking small amounts of information and then drawing the wrong conclusions (see cliffdwellers post).
Any 'wrong conclusions' I draw can easily be corrected with further information, for which I'm grateful.
The most frequent 'conclusion' I draw is that the more I learn, the more I realise there is to learn. And I have learnt new things on this thread, so my participation has been useful for me. I apologise if it's been unpleasant for you.
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cliffdweller
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# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
You aren't just asking questions - you are taking small amounts of information and then drawing the wrong conclusions (see cliffdwellers post).
Any 'wrong conclusions' I draw can easily be corrected with further information, for which I'm grateful.
The most frequent 'conclusion' I draw is that the more I learn, the more I realise there is to learn. And I have learnt new things on this thread, so my participation has been useful for me. I apologise if it's been unpleasant for you.
We've been down this road before, and this time seems to be only a slight meandering. But perhaps-- without meaning to wander too far into hellish territory-- I might suggest that since this isn't the first poster to notice this tendency, you could take it as a gentle reminder to check your tendency to jump to conclusions based on very little data. Helps us avoid a lot of unnecessary rabbit trails. Just sayin'.
[ 08. November 2013, 18:07: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Now, now, SvitlanaV2, take your medicine and don't play the victim ...
At the risk of second-guessing where you're at, I've noticed that you like to play devil's advocate to a certain extent - and there's nothing wrong with that particularly but it can rub people up the wrong way.
I've not got a dog in this fight so it hasn't rubbed me up the wrong way on this occasion, but there have been times when it has. As I'm sure some of my comments and posts have wound other people up and even wounded them at times ...
![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
I can be a sarky so-and-so, you aren't ... you're one of the good guys ... but sometimes you do appear to have a tendency to defend the indefensible on the large, lively and growing end of things or, in this case, the personality-cult end of the things, on the grounds that they must be doing something right because these groups are growing whilst nice, inoffensive, middle-of-the-road or mainstream churches are in decline ...
I can see what you're getting at but in can be exasperating when, as in this case, you continue to posit and speculate when, as Chris Stiles and others have said, there's plenty of material available that is pretty damning.
I don't know if that makes any sense. No-one says you shouldn't ask questions and no-one's saying that they know more than poor little old you ...
I, for one, have valued some of the insights and suggestions you bring - you often cause me to consider things in a way I've not done before. I'm grateful for that.
But there is sometimes a time when it pays to stop digging. I need to learn that lesson more than you do.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Al Eluia
Inquisitor
# 864
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm referring to the historical churches.
The historical churches in that part of Washington state are largely conservative Reformed churches.
Huh? I attend an Episcopal church one block from a "campus" of Mars Hill and chris's description puzzled me.
I certainly see the encroachment of Mars Hill as a challenge to neighboring churches that, like mine, are having trouble growing. I think it would be a mistake to try to copy Mars Hill, but I do see us as needing to compete, in a way, with them. Trying to be like them in style would be untrue to who we are, though.
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Consider helping out the Anglican Seminary in El Salvador with a book or two! https://www.amazon.es/registry/wishlist/YDAZNSAWWWBT/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_ep_ws_7IRSzbD16R9RQ
https://www.episcopalcafe.com/a-seminary-is-born-in-el-salvador/
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
On the restorationist thing ... I think we need to differentiate here between the US restorationist thing - the Churches of Christ, the Disciples of Christ - the Campbellites and so on ... and what became known as Restorationism in the UK ie. the 'new churches' such as those streams and networks associated with Bryn and Keri Jones, Terry Virgo, Tony Morton et al ...
I was involved with the latter - ie. the British not the US version ... if versions they were because they were very different.
There was certainly authoritarianism in the latter. I can't speak for the former but I don't doubt Seekingsister's version of events at all.
Nor do I contend that some Disciples of Christ, Churches of Christ and similar groups in the US can be fairly mainstream. The people from the Churches of Christ I've met online have all been very fundamentalist and very, very literalist - the Behemoth in Job as a description of a sauropod for instance ...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
But none of them have struck me as being particularly culty or controlling.
But you can find elements of that tendency in most conservatively theological settings ... some Plymouth Brethren assemblies could be quite controlling, some Pentecostal and Holiness groups the same.
The mileage varies across the board. The Plymouth Brethren I encountered were all pretty 'open' and nowhere near as inflexible as some other congregations within the same grouping ... I may continue to tease Kaplan Corday about them but in truth there were nowhere near as controlling and numpty-ish as some groups I could mention.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Svitlana - cults are very good at recruiting people. Driscoll's Mars Hill (iirc Rob Bell's church is also called Mars Hill and is I assume quite different!) is undoubtedly a cult IMO. That mainstream churches in the area can't compete is a sign of their unwillingless to become a cult and is a good thing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
I was doing some business in Redding California (Bethel land) in the summer and dropped into the church. A good test of a church is what the locals say about it. Everyone I spoke to in Redding had heard of Bethel, no one had a bad word to say about it and most spoke favourably of them. Church does a lot of regular community work which doesn't get mentioned much.
Worship verged more on the tedious than the hypnotic - didn't see too many people going into trances, saw a few switching off and playing with their mobile phones, and most just found the worship helpful engaging with God.
Bethel spirituality is shaped by the Californian culture - they are generally pretty relaxed and relentlessly optimistic, which is a breath of fresh air after the incessant cynical whinging that characterises a lot of church life in the UK (present company excepted I'm sure).
The Holy Spirit heals people in all kinds of churches - including Bethel. Any big organisation has their critics and disaffected members - and any big organisation will make mistakes and have to learn from them. Yeah I had some reservations, but overall there's a lot coming from Redding that's having a beneficial effect on churches - in particular helping people recover from abusive situations in other churches. I know some very damaged people - including some long standing church leaders, who fit that description.
By the way, for shipmates wanting to find out a bit more about Bethel teaching, read Danny Silk's stuff. Culture of Honour and Keep Your Love on will give you a flavour for some of the church's ethos.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, but some of their teaching goes way, way, way over the top.
Of course, it depends on where one is standing in the first place.
I'd just politely decline any invitation to get involved with anything which had the Bethel finger-prints anywhere near it.
I was disappointed that the New Wine crowd saw fit to invite Johnson a few years ago. Although I've heard that some of the leadership have since rued that decision ...
Of course, the can anything good come from Southern California thing applies here as it does to anything else. It won't be all bad.
But there are enough people receiving counselling and so on to recover from their involvement to convince me to give it as wide a berth as I can.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Truman White
Shipmate
# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But there are enough people receiving counselling and so on to recover from their involvement to convince me to give it as wide a berth as I can.
S'funny - I've not met any of 'em. What I have met are people who have recovered from their involvement in other churches, supported by people taught and trained at Bethel.
Be interesting to get some of both together in the same room to share experiences.
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Jolly Jape
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# 3296
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Posted
@ Gameliel
I have some concerns about some of the Bethel teaching myself; not so much about error but more of a culture which encourages excessive credulity, as I would see it, but I've not come accross accusations of cultishness attaching themselves to Bethel in the way that they have to MH Seattle. In short, I think Bethel are a bit whacky but not fundamentally dangerous. Driscoll is a very different kettle of fish.
(x-posted with Truman White)
[ 09. November 2013, 14:14: Message edited by: Jolly Jape ]
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
Interestingly, I was at HTB last Sunday, where Brian and Jan Johnson (from Bethel) were leading the sung worship. My impression accords exactly with that of Truman White. That is, more tedious than transformative. Lots of people around me tweeting or on facebook, etc. Maybe it was because most of the songs were new to me, but I found it quite hard work, and it doesn't usually take much to get me "lost in wonder, love and praise." I just felt they were trying too hard, and that communicated itself.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interesting ...
I've heard of the tendency (tactic?) of Bethel offering their services to leaders and others who believe themselves to have been abused etc etc.
Call me cynical but I immediately spelt a rat and felt that this was some way of absorbing these people into their own fold and orbit. 'Had a terrible time? There, there ... come to us and we'll help you ...'
Like you, it's the overly credulous aspect that worries me. Plus, from what I've heard and read, the 'Honour' teaching and so forth goes a bit beyond what might reasonably be deduced from scripture.
A Baptist minister I know who I rate as something of a exegete, sat in on one of Bill Johnson's sessions at New Wine and came away feeling that there wasn't a great deal of scriptural support for some of his assertions. It was simply stringing a few proof-texts together.
As for the worship style of Bethel. Someone once sent me a link to a You Tube clip of one of their most popular songs. I turned it off about 3/4 the way through and was surprised I got that far, such was the level of turgidity.
I suspect I'm bit more wary and sober-sided than you are these days in allowing myself to be 'lost in wonder, love and praise' - partly because I'm always alert to people having 'designs' on me or trying to manipulate my emotions. I've seen too much of that in my time.
But it doesn't surprise me if people were texting and so on while it was going on. It wouldn't surprise me to see that happening anywhere these days. I attended part of an RC Mass in Italy this summer and some of the congregation where texting and answering their mobile-phones as the old monk leading that part of the service wheezed his way through the readings and liturgy.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
The news that Bethel's firmly in with HTB is discouraging. It makes me even more inclined to avoid the charismatic scene within Anglicanism.
Is nowhere safe from infection?
Time was when there was some reasonable theology and debate around in Anglican charismatic circles. No longer, it would seem ...
Ichabod ... Ichabod ... every man to his own tent, O Israel ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
Interestingly, I was at HTB last Sunday, where Brian and Jan Johnson (from Bethel) were leading the sung worship. My impression accords exactly with that of Truman White. That is, more tedious than transformative. Lots of people around me tweeting or on facebook, etc. Maybe it was because most of the songs were new to me, but I found it quite hard work, and it doesn't usually take much to get me "lost in wonder, love and praise." I just felt they were trying too hard, and that communicated itself.
They are participating in another HTB event as well - I can't remember if it is Focus (camping week away) or the Leadership Conference, but I heard them mentioned.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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