|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: De-Americanisation
|
the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Two words. Spice Girls. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It's gotten worse since then: One Direction ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Two words. Spice Girls.
It's gotten worse since then: One Direction
Pretty much. Just to clarify my position here, I am against any form of American exceptionalism. The US is neither exceptionally good, nor exceptionally bad, though its size and power does give it more opportunity to behave in the same self-interested manner every country can he relied upon to adopt.
On these threads people start talking a lot of wank about the evils of American culture, as if their own cultures were any better. And, let's be real here. If y'all didn't like American pop culture, y'all wouldn't buy it, would you?
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
We would probably also have to talk about legitimate Japanese concerns about American expansionism in the Pacific.
Japan's attitude toward American expansionism seemed to waver(and vice versa, of course). In 1905, they were getting the high-fives from Teddy Roosevelt to annex Korea(against Russian claims), in exchange for agreesing to let the Yanks go unchallenged in the Philippines.
Taft-Katsura Agreement
quote:
We would probably also have to talk about legitimate Japanese concerns about American expansionism in the Pacific. I've never understood how it is "America = good" and "Japan = bad" except for the 30-40 year gap in time when we consider the Philippines and Manchuria.
I've actually read essays by left-wing Korean historians, who use the term "anti-American" as an insult when referring to the activities of pro-Japanese collaborators in the World War II era, but then switch to using "PRO-American" as an insult, when describing the same people during the postwar era, when those people took positions with the right-wing, American backed regimes.
And, for what it's worth, it is credibly recorded that, immediatley following World War II, Kim Il Sing of North Korea gave a speech to assembled foreign dignitaries, in which he thanked the US, among others, for helping to defeat the Japanese. As far as is known, the last time he ever said anything good about the Americans.
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Two words. Spice Girls.
Funny what does and does not become a symbol of evil globalization. Being American certainly seems to be a strike against any given item.
Mickey Mouse, of course, is the recognized symbol of diabolical global capitalism, but as far as I can tell, Harry Potter gets a free pass, even though I'm pretty sure his brand has raked in far more cash these last fifteen years than Mickey has, and he's as much of a hegemonic imposition on non-western cultures as Mickey is.
And never mind the non-west: if I were BRITISH, I think I'd be offended by Harry Potter. I've only seen the first film, but I remember thinking it was like an spisode of Bewitched overlaid with a Hollywood scriptwriter's idea of Merry Old England.
[Bewitched: Low brow American sitcom from the 60s, about a beautiful suburban witch and her hapless husband.]
[ 04. November 2013, 14:14: Message edited by: Stetson ]
--------------------
I have the power...Lucifer is lord!
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
Y'all should also come to terms with the fact that American culture is more or less European. American capitalism does little more than spew your own crap back in your face.
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Y'all should also come to terms with the fact that American culture is more or less European.
'fraid I got to agree with Zach on this one. We may nitpick about our differences, but I'm not sure if most non-European countries would see them as significant.
--------------------
"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
|
Posted
The perspective of American being in essence European is probably true, except that there aspects of Euro culture frozen in time, whereas Europe has left it behind. The ancestor to both current American culture and current European culture is a old European culture, of centuries and years ago, with substantial divergence. I note this as a Canadian, where, as children of a common parentage, we have many similarities to Americans, but we have both USAians and Cdains left behind that parentage and grown in divergent ways. Which is a reason that Canadians are rather quick to clarify when abroad that we aren't Americans.
--------------------
Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stetson:
And never mind the non-west: if I were BRITISH, I think I'd be offended by Harry Potter. I've only seen the first film, but I remember thinking it was like an spisode of Bewitched overlaid with a Hollywood scriptwriter's idea of Merry Old England.
Harry Potter has the same "only our nation can save the world" features of most American pop culture - and I say that as a fan of the books.
I did wonder why the Ministry of Magic wouldn't just call up their friends at the US Magic Department and sort something out.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I've never understood how it is "America = good" and "Japan = bad" except for the 30-40 year gap in time when we consider the Philippines and Manchuria. The post modern view being that America and Japan had a lot in common in the first half of the 20th century in terms of their international conduct. Though I think the USA invaded more countries in total count than Japan. Not sure which killed more people.
If one is to asses good and evil, one should view the entire picture. But it is difficult to erase perspective. For example, ask a Filipino over 70 who was worse. Ask an American Black person, perhaps a different response. If one counts atrocities, Japan rates with Germany and Russia, save for numbers.
Cultures destroyed? People killed? Resources plundered? Chaos begun. America, Britain, China, Rome,.....
From my perspective, it doesn't seem to matter who is boss, the whip scars the back, all the same.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Soul Cakes are not an American innovation, I think you'll find. Souling long predates the European "discovery" of the Americas.
Yeah... that was pretty much my point.
Sorry; missed that.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Soul Cakes are not an American innovation, I think you'll find. Souling long predates the European "discovery" of the Americas.
Yeah... that was pretty much my point.
Sorry; missed that.
It happens. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
--------------------
Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
Gwai wrote:
quote:
Erm, I feel like I should point here that the Harry Potter series was not written by an American but by a Brit.
Yes, that was my original point. The Potter franchise rules the world, but doesn't seem to attarct the kind of animosity that American pop culture does.
Though I could also observe that, even confining ourselves to American cultural products, they don't all attract an equal share of animosity. This picture I posted earlier uses Mickey Mouse as its stand-in for western imperialism, not Bugs Bunny, and in fact I don't think I've ever seen Bugs Bunny used that way, even though Warner Bros. is as big if not bigger than Disney(and that's not even talking about Time Warner).
[ 04. November 2013, 20:00: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
|
Posted
Fair enough re Potter.
I think Potter isn't used as a symbol of Britain because Britain has so many symbols. Also, Disney has really made itself disliked by doing things like getting copyright extended. (Not that the copyright issue particularly affects overseas, but other things do.)
Also, I hear Mickey Mouse and McDonalds used to symbolize simplification, unhealthy tacky American culture, and making everything the same. For all its flaws, I don't think those apply to Bugs (or Time-Warner) as much. Besides old Bugs Bunny was a good cartoon!
--------------------
A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
|
Posted
Whats ended seems to be overwhelming US economic domination, which was more or less a defining characteristic of the 20th century. US military domination might be going to end sometime but its nowhere near it yet (and that lag is typical of the fate of many past empires, including Spain and Britain)
But American culuture is very much one variant or rather many variants of Western European culture (Anglo subtype). The worldwide spread of American-style music, clothes, food, films and so on has as many roots in Italy and Germany and France as it does in the USA - or Britain.
And the really distinctive contribution of the Americas to world popular culture, the stuff that could never have come straight from Europe, is overwhelmingly Black American culture. (With a hefty influence from the Caribbean) And who, other than a few bigots with tin ears, really resents that?
--------------------
Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Golden Key
Shipmate
# 1468
|
Posted
FWIW, I've long thought that my gov't (US) should:
--Pull back most of our reach from the rest of the world.
--Remove troops from any place where that doesn't a) affect a country that can't sufficiently protect itself; and b) seriously affect our own safety.
--Forgive all debts that poor countries owe us.
--Be absolutely open that the USA's self interest is almost always a huge chunk of anything we do.
--Stop meddling in the internal politics of other countries, including influencing who leads those countries.-Only help institute democracy in another country when they specifically ask for help.
--Only help institute democracy in another country when they specifically ask for help.
--Revisit all this in 50 years or so. That will make it easier to sell to our gov't and citizens.
Beyond that: we can't control big business any more than you can. If you don't want American products, don't buy them!!
--------------------
Blessed Gator, pray for us!
--"Oh bat bladders, do you have to bring common sense into this?" (Dragon, "Jane & the Dragon")
--"Oh, Peace Train, save this country!" (Yusuf/Cat Stevens, "Peace Train")
Posts: 18601 | From: Chilling out in an undisclosed, sincere pumpkin patch. | Registered: Oct 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
From my perspective, it doesn't seem to matter who is boss, the whip scars the back, all the same.
It is easy to say that when faced with the complexity of assessing the situation, but of course one can still discern important differences. Life under Stalin compared with life in the USA was not really 6 of one and half a dozen of the other. As imperfect as US democracy is, I would still prefer that to the Chinese non-version. I would prefer US justice, warts-and-all, to Chinese courts in which the government seems supreme. And so on.
(On the other hand I'd prefer Szechuan chicken stir-fry to a bigmac.)
--------------------
mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by otyetsfoma:
Nevertheless I prefer friendship with USA to subservience to the EU.
Ha ha, very good! Where did you get that; The Sun or the Daily Mail?
The UK is not subservient to the EU. It is part of it. The EU is a federation of nation states, of which the UK is just one. We have formal routes to influence policy in return for abiding by the decisions of the majority. Are we "subservient" to the elected parliament in Westminster. We're just one voice in a democratic endeavour.
As for "friendship" with the USA, well they seem to pick their "friends" very carefully. We have no influence over what sacrifices they will demand for that "friendship" to stay in place.
--------------------
there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
The thread has moved on TGB, but I don't think the evidence supports either of your conjectures.
What is interesting is the anti-Americanism of the right and the extreme left in the UK. The Centre and moderate left does not seem to mind at all, but think of your Thomas the Tank books - the general nastiness towards the US, and US practices, displayed there is quite unexpected. WHen you move to more serious matters, that strand continues.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
... but think of your Thomas the Tank books - the general nastiness towards the US, and US practices, displayed there is quite unexpected. ...
What on earth has Thomas the Tank Engine got to do with this?
--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Jonah the Whale
Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244
|
Posted
Yes, that's weird. There must be some new editions out. The only nastiness in the books I used to read to my kids was directed at diesel engines.
Posts: 2799 | From: Nether Regions | Registered: Aug 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Yes, that's weird. There must be some new editions out. The only nastiness in the books I used to read to my kids was directed at diesel engines.
I cannot now recall which volume, but the same sort of attack is made upon a US loco which somehow finds its way to the Island of Sodor.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
|
Posted
"It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth."
Those who forget their history - and one might also say their ideals - are condemned to repeat it.
I seem to remember that in Orwell's "1984" the Gettysburg address, from which the above is its best known excerpt, would have been translated simply as thoughtcrime.
We need to be alert to the misapplication of good principle everywhere. Government administrations dilute and vandalise human freedoms for their own reasons. It's what they do, everywhere.
--------------------
Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Erm, I feel like I should point here that the Harry Potter series was not written by an American but by a Brit.
Who thought HP was American?
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
|
Posted
Re. Thomas books: the locomotive in question is called "Hank" - to be fair, he dos not appear in the "proper" railway books but only in the TV spinoff ... and may even have been included because the programmes were marketed in America.
I think the books are far more "anti-modern" than "anti-American" (and the Great Western Railway doesn't get off lightly either!)
[ 05. November 2013, 09:04: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
Yes, that's weird. There must be some new editions out. The only nastiness in the books I used to read to my kids was directed at diesel engines.
I cannot now recall which volume, but the same sort of attack is made upon a US loco which somehow finds its way to the Island of Sodor.
I expect they were concerned that an engine built to a far larger loading gauge would get stuck in their tunnels and under their bridges, and that would never do. Also, most American engines are very untidy with a snakes' honeymoon of pipes and gubbins bolted onto the exterior.
--------------------
"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
|
Posted
Not just the appearance, but also the much softer springing to accommodate the track conditions found in the US - and here for that matter. The loco talks of rocking and rolling. The Fat Controller's engines disapprove of the language and behaviour.
--------------------
Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
(and the Great Western Railway doesn't get off lightly either!)
never trust domeless engines..... They were just jealous.
--------------------
And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Stetson
Shipmate
# 9597
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Erm, I feel like I should point here that the Harry Potter series was not written by an American but by a Brit.
Who thought HP was American?
I think someone might have misunderstood my post that read, in part...
quote:
And never mind the non-west: if I were BRITISH, I think I'd be offended by Harry Potter. I've only seen the first film, but I remember thinking it was like an spisode of Bewitched overlaid with a Hollywood scriptwriter's idea of Merry Old England.
My initial point was that it was an example of a non-American cultural product dominating the global market. The paragraph quoted above was just an afterthought, musing on how much it does resemble typical American pop culture.
[ 05. November 2013, 12:25: Message edited by: Stetson ]
Posts: 6574 | From: back and forth between bible belts | Registered: Jun 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
Didn't Voldemort cast a Turnius-Americanus-Subitus spell over Harry once?
(PS Everybody knows that Harry Potter is Dutch.)
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
