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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Pope seeks advice
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
It seems that the Pope is going to attempt to ask RCs worldwide what they really think about sexual issues - BBC report here. To me this sounds like a good thing, but it is a profound shift from his predecessors. Is it an abnegation of his responsibility as leader? And should questions like this be settled by popular vote?
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
What happens if the results aren't to western liberals' liking?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
To me it looks more like he is looking for information to determine the type of teachings and pastoral care the church needs to focus on based on members' family lives, rather than that the answers would actually guide RCC doctrine. But maybe I'm a pessimist!
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Robert Armin:
... Is it an abnegation of his responsibility as leader? ...
Are you suggesting it is bad leadership to listen to anyone else. that the mark of great leadership is to issue commands from on high?
[ 06. November 2013, 16:09: Message edited by: Enoch ]
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
I don't think he is going to settle these matters by popular vote.
I think he recognizes that Roman Catholic teachings on various matters, not just sexual issues, are out of touch with where the people of the Roman church are. The survey he is promoting will give the hierarchy a good feel for the differences between the teachings and where people are.
It will challenge the hierarchy to be more responsive to the lay people. I think eventually it might help the papacy to build more consensus within the Roman church. It certainly empowers the lay people to have a voice. It will initiate a new Reformation, in my book.
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Well, a previous Pope asked for the opinions of Catholic laity on sex back in the 1960s and then ignored most of what they said, so I will moderate my rapture and wait to see if anything actually changes.
Surely part of the 'responsibility of leadership' (as you put it) is to listen to what your followers tell you about how your leadership affects their lives?
The Catholic Church is not and never has been a democracy, so I think it is highly unlikely that anything will be settled by popular vote.
[ 06. November 2013, 16:12: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Robert Armin: Is it an abnegation of his responsibility as leader?
I don't think there is a contradiction between seeking advice and fulfilling your responsability as a leader. To the contrary.
quote:
Anglican't: What happens if the results aren't to western liberals' liking?
We'll continue to dislike the RC's policies on sexuality as much as we do now.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
When I first read the BBC page the link to the questionnaire wasn't working. Now it is, and I wonder how many responses the Pope will get. The very first question is: quote:
Describe how the Catholic Church’s teachings on the value of the family contained in the Bible, Gaudium et spes, Familiaris consortio and other documents of the post-conciliar Magisterium is understood by people today? What formation is given to our people on the Church’s teaching on family life?
As well as having an unnecessary ?, that is heavy going. The other questions aren't quite so intimidating, but replying to it will not be an easy exercise.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
Posts: 8927 | From: In the pack | Registered: May 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
I find myself in very little suspense of the course of this dialogue.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Describe how the Catholic Church’s teachings on the value of the family contained in the Bible, Gaudium et spes, Familiaris consortio and other documents of the post-conciliar Magisterium is understood by people today? What formation is given to our people on the Church’s teaching on family life?
Sounds like some intense selection bias there since those who have looked them up and know what they are will probably be those who take the church's stances more seriously. Mind, that may be intentional, or perhaps that list of reading assignments is an attempt to begin educating people then and there.
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
As a fluffy liberal I was delighted when I first heard this news. Now that I've read the questions the suspicion that it might be PR exercise, designed to look good but change nothing, rears itself in my mind. I suspect your average parish priest would have problems answering this, let alone your average RC-in-the-pew.
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Keeping fit was an obsession with Fr Moity .... He did chin ups in the vestry, calisthenics in the pulpit, and had developed a series of Tai-Chi exercises to correspond with ritual movements of the Mass. The Antipope Robert Rankin
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Unless I've misunderstood, which is entirely possible, it's a questionnaire for the bishops, who will have to conduct their own fact-finding missions locally in the light of this and bring the answers to the synod. As it stands it doesn't exactly fill me with "gaudium et spes" ("joy and hope"). I wouldn't have a clue where to start answering, but I'm not a bishop. Does it explicitly say somewhere that the person in the pew is supposed to fill this in?
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Robert Armin: Is it an abnegation of his responsibility as leader?
I don't think there is a contradiction between seeking advice and fulfilling your responsability as a leader. To the contrary.
Indeed. Listening to (though not necessarily following) advice is key to items 12, 17, and 61 of the Evil Overlord* list.
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*I'm not saying the current Pope is an Evil Overlord (like the last guy), just that there's some procedural overlap.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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bad man
Apprentice
# 17449
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Does it explicitly say somewhere that the person in the pew is supposed to fill this in?
Question 3 is:
quote:
In what capacity are you making this response? Please tick all that apply
The options are:-
Priest
Lay person
Parent
Deacon
Professed Religious
Teacher
Pastoral Assistant
Catechist
Seminarian
Hospital Chaplain
Prison Chaplain
Military Chaplain
Member of a Lay Association or Movement (please give details below)
Other (please give details below)
So the person in the pew is definitely eligible (Lay person). Not even limited to "Laymen"!
Posts: 49 | From: Diocese of Guildford | Registered: Nov 2012
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
Robert Armin: Is it an abnegation of his responsibility as leader?
I don't think there is a contradiction between seeking advice and fulfilling your responsability as a leader. To the contrary.
quote:
Anglican't: What happens if the results aren't to western liberals' liking?
We'll continue to dislike the RC's policies on sexuality as much as we do now.
@1: My thoughts entirely.
@2:that is what the majority of people will think. And I for one cannot get myself to blame them.
I must admit I was surprised when that questionnaire was launched. As a social "scientist"
tangent: I don't think sociology is really a science for I do not suffer from physics envy. I know my (admittedly largely Newtonian) physics, I trained as a Pilot. Sociology is something very different, it is, at best, a discipline of enquiry and analysis; at worst, a silly word game. Tangent closed) I know a thing or two about complex, open-ended questionnaires sent to populations that differ widely in culture and language ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
It spells desaster. Babel revisited.
Also, the questions are phrased in such a way that they require deep thought and careful answering. Never a good basis for a mass enquiry.
Maybe launching this was just naïve actionnism. But maybe it was not.
My guess is that the results of it will serve as one base of discussion in a soon-to-be-convened synod or other conference including a considerable amount of laypeople on the topic of The Family (TM). Not such a bad idea in itself.
For the rest, I point to LeRoc's answer to Q1.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
It is not unlike a government consultation / green paper / white paper in what it requires of the respondent.
They may capture some useful information, the key maybe how they aggregate the data.
I don't think the church has ever felt bound to move at sprint speed - so hopefully they will devote the time and resources needed to make good use of the responses.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
If bishops and priests haven't bought into the idea of surveying their flocks (and I'm enough of a pessimist to suspect that this is the case in many places) I doubt that the information gathered is going to be very representational.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
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Posted
Just this past month I suggested to our evangelism committee we should send a survey out to our visitors. A ten question survey asking them their impressions of our congregation. It was interesting to see the reactions of the people:
Two of the people are in their late seventies. They were totally against it.
Two of the people are in their fifties. They had questions about the purpose.
One was in his late 20's. He says he takes these surveys all the time.
Pastor expressed openness to the idea.
Conclusion: we will discuss it next meeting. I have already made up two sample surveys. They will be totally online (through surveymonkey.com).
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
I don't think he is going to settle these matters by popular vote.
I think he recognizes that Roman Catholic teachings on various matters, not just sexual issues, are out of touch with where the people of the Roman church are. The survey he is promoting will give the hierarchy a good feel for the differences between the teachings and where people are.
It will challenge the hierarchy to be more responsive to the lay people. I think eventually it might help the papacy to build more consensus within the Roman church. It certainly empowers the lay people to have a voice. It will initiate a new Reformation, in my book.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I am not convinced that this survey is necessary, or that it will provide any great insights. However, it does provide that which most people want: a forum in which to air their thoughts and feelings. Perhaps that will go down as Pope Francis's biggest accomplishment.
That said, it always seemed to me that Pope Benedict also seemed to read thoughts and feelings, but that it took some very good philosophical arguments to sway him. He also seemed hesitant to give people false hope, which is a possibility of this survey.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
And as often happens, many people on this thread are looking in from the perspective of a different denomination and using the standards of that denomination as a yardstick to assess another denomination. Please do bear in mind that Catholics can vote with their feet and cease to attend churches if they aren't happy about whatever aspect of the teaching that goes with it. The fact that so many haven't actually left says something, I think.
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
However, it does provide that which most people want: a forum in which to air their thoughts and feelings. Perhaps that will go down as Pope Francis's biggest accomplishment.
I fear you may be right.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
Good For Pope Francis. I suspect the people he wishes this to have the most impact on are within a mmmmmmm lets say 3 miles radius of St Peter's.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
the people he wishes this to have the most impact on are within a mmmmmmm lets say 3 miles radius of St Peter's.
you mean those outside The Real World ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
(note that I find much of what happens in TRW just as disordered and unhealthy as what goes on within the Curia. We need to heal the world, not blindly accept all it's doings).
This is not an exercise in cheap populism even though it might look a bit like it. There is something more solid behind this. And it is not about pandering to the Vox Populi . It is more about listening.
[ 07. November 2013, 09:39: Message edited by: Desert Daughter ]
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
The fact that so many haven't actually left says something, I think.
Do you have any statistics on this? I'm curious to know if it's actually true, at least in the West.
In my anecdotal experience, Catholics are much more likely to lapse, than to join other denominations. It seems those who disagree with church doctrine are most likely either to stop attending, or to attend but ignore whichever teaching they don't agree with.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
It is more about listening.
And my impression is that PF is an able listener, he just wishes for some of his friends to hear the same tune he catches on the wind.
To add, I do not think he wishes to change the Doctrine of the Roman Church, I think he wishes to give ears to some that they might hear.
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Ariel: quote:
The fact that so many haven't actually left says something, I think.
Yes; what it says to me is that the Catholic Church is very good at getting Catholics to believe that it is the One True Church, even when they disagree with everything else it asserts.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Do you have any statistics on this? I'm curious to know if it's actually true, at least in the West.
No, just basing this on it being the largest Christian denomination. Which suggests it must appeal to people in some way, or they wouldn't do it.
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passer
Indigo
# 13329
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
In my anecdotal experience, Catholics are much more likely to lapse, than to join other denominations. It seems those who disagree with church doctrine are most likely either to stop attending, or to attend but ignore whichever teaching they don't agree with.
Yes, I agree with this. It's kind of sad that even when people think that you're the only show in town, you manage to alienate them to the extent that they just stay at home, not even bothering to look for another show. Doctrinaire tyranny.
Regarding the OP, I have no expectation that this will achieve anything. The Church is so pedestrian in its process that Francis will probably be dead before the results are collated and any response promulgated, and the Vatican will be back in the safe hands of the self-interested.
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Posts: 1289 | From: Sheffield | Registered: Jan 2008
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Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
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Posted
it's just easier to lapse if you are very scrupulous (cf the thread dedicated to that) and take the doctrinal straight-jacket at absolute face value.
Not all of us do.
Why do we stay? There are as many reason for being in the RCC as there are RC's. Reasons range from "sheer inertia" to "born-again-I've-seen-the-light". Culture plays a role (I have thought about becoming Orthodox, but desisted, because I feel more comfortable in RC culture). "The Devil you know" effects another.To many of us it is simply what makes most sense.
And remember, many of the issues that stand out for outsiders as ludicrous simply do not play that much of a role in our everyday life as Catholics. Things do look different (and maybe less ludicrous) from the inside.
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"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
And remember, many of the issues that stand out for outsiders as ludicrous simply do not play that much of a role in our everyday life as Catholics. Things do look different (and maybe less ludicrous) from the inside.
But isn't it a sin to go for Holy Communion if you are on the Pill and intend to stay on it? Surely that's at least an every week life issue.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
it's just easier to lapse if you are very scrupulous (cf the thread dedicated to that) and take the doctrinal straight-jacket at absolute face value.
Not all of us do.
Why do we stay? There are as many reason for being in the RCC as there are RC's. Reasons range from "sheer inertia" to "born-again-I've-seen-the-light". Culture plays a role (I have thought about becoming Orthodox, but desisted, because I feel more comfortable in RC culture). "The Devil you know" effects another.To many of us it is simply what makes most sense.
And remember, many of the issues that stand out for outsiders as ludicrous simply do not play that much of a role in our everyday life as Catholics. Things do look different (and maybe less ludicrous) from the inside.
I think that's true. I have some Catholic friends, and sometimes I go with them to Mass, and in my experience, they don't obsess about contraception, abortion, and so on. Some of them advocate women priests, but they don't seem to be wracked by anguish over it. I suppose it's partly inertia, but maybe they just feel comfortable, despite some disagreements with official teachings. I guess they are not scrupulous. Quelle horreur! I guess the translation for that is, how awful!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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