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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Personal Jesus
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I was very interested to hear the morning worsahip this morning from a Jesuit Church here in the UK where, in the introduction the priest spoke about Christ the King Sunday being a time for Christians to affirm that Jesus is their personal friend and Saviour!
And there was me getting the impression from the Shipmates here that such talk was just shallow evangelicalism.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
It depends what such talk means on a practical level, ie whether one accepts that Jesus is the friend and saviour of others too! Given Jesuit action in areas of social activism, education, anti-poverty campaigning etc, it's clearly not shallow. Jesuits are also unlikely to use that as their only description of Jesus. It's how the statement is put into practice that determines whether it's shallow or not (and IME evangelicals are more prone to shallowness in this area because for those of us who take Tradition seriously, it protects us from shallowness to an extent - although clearly not all evangelicals have a shallow theology).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
The evangelicals aren't going to use that as their only descriptor either though, are they Jade? Maybe they do in Sunday school, but most things are simplified in Sunday school. Once you get to the adult sermons, Jesus is also Lord, judge, redeemer, ... you get the idea. I've been travelling a lot these past few months and have been to quite a number of evangelical churches, and this has been true for all of them.
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Indeed Jade, and your description of the Jesuits could also apply when referring to the activities of The Salvation Army, a highly evangelical movement with very conservative evangelical doctrines.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, indeed - although don't take this the wrong way, Mudfrog, I think the difference lies in form rather than content ... in that there is an element of sentimentality within the more Wesleyan traditions (such as yours) which you wouldn't necessarily find among the Jesuits or in more Catholic circles more general.
Or, if you do, it'd be expressed in a different way - icky and tatty religious art etc.
I think one of the most evangelical sermons I've ever heard was one given by a Benedictine monk and had he not been wearing a habit but - say - a suit and tie or a Salvation Army officer's uniform or a Hawaiian shirt and chinos - he could have easily been mistaken for an evangelical Protestant preacher of some kind ...
I can't speak for other Shipmates but my view of terms like Jesus being our 'personal saviour' and so on isn't so much that such a concept is trite and trivial - far from it - but the way that it is sometimes articulated in evangelical circles one could be forgiven for getting the impression that it is.
That said, I fully accept Dinghy Sailor's comment that there's greater variety and breadth/depth within the evangelical traditions than they are sometimes given credit for.
There's nothing wrong with demotic language and presenting things 'straight' but there can be a fine line between that and veering into a rather cloying sentimentality at times.
I ought to know, I come from South Wales. We wallow in sentimentality down there. We love it.
I'm easily moved and can get misty-eyed at the drop of a hat ... be it the Treorchy Male Voice Choir, a northern brass-band or a Salvation Army one come to that, and old ladies cycling to evensong in the mist ...
All of which is fine, provided you recognise it for what it is and not the thing itself.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
I understand that 'personal friend' might indeed sound a little trite. It could make him sound like a pet or an imaginary friend.
I think that actually it's a term used to highlight that faith in Christ is a personal response of the heart. It's not private, it's not individual, but even within the community of faith it is something that is deeply held, a personal, meaningful faith.
We're not talking about a 'personal Jesus' as if it were some kind of 'angel on the shoulder' thing - merely an expression of personal devotion to Christ.
The friend thing is simply a reflection of Jesus' own words, 'I no longer call you servant, I call you friends.'
The phrase 'personal friend' is often couple with 'Saviour'; again expressing the individual response made even when within the household of faith.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
Interesting that the festival of Christ the King should chosen as the occasion for such pietism. In seems to me that Christ the King is more about Christ in his ascended glory at the right hand of the Father to a place of unparalleled spiritual authority in the spiritual realms - Christ Pantokrator. God Almighty, not God all matey.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
When they combine the personal and friend with miracles, then there's trouble. I get the happy ecstasy feelings, but like the lust, giddiness and puppy love at the start of a relationship, it's not something of steady diet. There's the cartoons and ads before a movie and then the movie itself. The national anthem and the concert. Happy hour and the meal.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Interesting that the festival of Christ the King should chosen as the occasion for such pietism. In seems to me that Christ the King is more about Christ in his ascended glory at the right hand of the Father to a place of unparalleled spiritual authority in the spiritual realms - Christ Pantokrator. God Almighty, not God all matey.
Yes, very clever 'God all matey'
![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif) But who is this King? As well as him being ruler, head over all things, etc, he is also the servant-King who shows a different way. Is there no room in Christ the King for one who is enthroned in the hearts as well as being the cosmic King?
[ 24. November 2013, 14:32: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Heh heh ... I didn't hear the broadcast, daronmedway, but I suspect the Jesuit preacher was simply suggesting that as well as being King and Saviour, Christ can be known/apprehended on a 'personal' level - both/and not either/or ...
Yes, it does sound terribly pietistic but perhaps more so to ears that are attuned to pietism.
There's pietism and there's pietism, as it were.
I think that, had I heard the broadcast and had I been wearing the same or similar shoes as Mudfrog then my reactions would have been similar to his -
'Oh, listen, here's a Jesuit preacher affirming the need for a personal faith in Christ. That's exactly what the Salvation Army preaches only we get stick for that on Ship of Fools ...'
I think all of us know what's being said here, it's just that the language/terminology can be inadequate - as Mudfrog acknowledges.
It's all got connotations, of course, like the Johnny Cash song, 'Your own personal Jesus'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpYW3qng78E
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
When they combine the personal and friend with miracles, then there's trouble. I get the happy ecstasy feelings, but like the lust, giddiness and puppy love at the start of a relationship, it's not something of steady diet. There's the cartoons and ads before a movie and then the movie itself. The national anthem and the concert. Happy hour and the meal.
Before we go any further - let's get it straight that whilst all charismatics and pentecostals are evangelicals, not all evangelicals are charismatic/pentecostals. Most evangelicals I come across are level-headed Bible-focused (as opposed to experience/miracles/hype focused) normal people. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Interesting that the festival of Christ the King should chosen as the occasion for such pietism. In seems to me that Christ the King is more about Christ in his ascended glory at the right hand of the Father to a place of unparalleled spiritual authority in the spiritual realms - Christ Pantokrator. God Almighty, not God all matey.
Yes, very clever 'God all matey'
But who is this King? As well as him being ruler, head over all things, etc, he is also the servant-King who shows a different way. Is there no room in Christ the King for one who is enthroned in the hearts as well as being the cosmic King?
There most certainly is! In fact, there's nothing more chilling than a spirituality which strongly preaches the reality of the former without teaching the reality of the latter. In fact, this is where I think non-charismatic conservative evangelicalism is at its weakest. That way lies the emotionless formalism and textualism of the "frozen chosen'.
[ 24. November 2013, 14:37: Message edited by: daronmedway ]
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's all got connotations, of course, like the Johnny Cash song, 'Your own personal Jesus'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpYW3qng78E
Which of course is what neither the Jesuit father nor most evangelicals are on about. We don;'t get to have our own personal Jesus. What we do have is the one Lord and Christ who is apprehended personally
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, yes, which allows seems to be what daronmedway is saying too ...
I don't think we're disagreeing here.
That said, I do think the Johnny Cash song captures a particular danger within certain brands of particularly US-style evangelicalism ... Christ as some kind of marketable commodity.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Interesting that the festival of Christ the King should chosen as the occasion for such pietism. In seems to me that Christ the King is more about Christ in his ascended glory at the right hand of the Father to a place of unparalleled spiritual authority in the spiritual realms - Christ Pantokrator. God Almighty, not God all matey.
Yes, very clever 'God all matey'
But who is this King? As well as him being ruler, head over all things, etc, he is also the servant-King who shows a different way. Is there no room in Christ the King for one who is enthroned in the hearts as well as being the cosmic King?
There most certainly is! In fact, there's nothing more chilling than a spirituality which strongly preaches the reality of the former without teaching the reality of the latter. In fact, this is where I think non-charismatic conservative evangelicalism is at its weakest. That way lies the emotionless formalism and textualism of the "frozen chosen'.
Oh yes, I have met some of them as well! The joy is so deep down in their hearts it's never let out! Agreed. There are a few off the wall Pentecostals at one end and a few ice age Presbyterians at the other!
But of course, the majority of them are as warm and spiritual as the rest of us
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Interestingly, and I'm not sure daronmedway would like this, but Fr Gregory (remember him?) an Orthodox priest who used to frequent these boards once said to me in real-life conversation that he believed that the Wesleyan strand in Western Christianity represented a 'golden thread' that ran through both Eastern and Western Christianity, if properly apprehended and understood - and that was a sense of 'warmth' and also the fact that the divine and numinous could be personally apprehended.
I keep getting into trouble on these boards for suggesting that certain forms of Scholastic Christianity - late medieval Thomas Aquinas style and certain forms of Calvinism - do veer into speculative and rather cold, calculating and somewhat arid forms of faith.
We need the warmth of the Wesleyan dimension, for want of a better term ... although there is a corollary with that which we need to be aware of - and that's a tendency to emotionalism - rather than emotion per se.
There's a balance somewhere.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Well, yes, which allows seems to be what daronmedway is saying too ...
I don't think we're disagreeing here.
That said, I do think the Johnny Cash song captures a particular danger within certain brands of particularly US-style evangelicalism ... Christ as some kind of marketable commodity.
Oh indeed!
I think the 'personal' issue is a reaction to any perceived nominalism where someone assumes they are Christian because of heritage or church custom and practice, but for whom personal faith and discipleship is foreign.
It's the 'going to church doesn't make you a christian any more than going into a garage makes you a car' kind of thing.
You need to have personal faith.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
When they combine the personal and friend with miracles, then there's trouble. I get the happy ecstasy feelings, but like the lust, giddiness and puppy love at the start of a relationship, it's not something of steady diet. There's the cartoons and ads before a movie and then the movie itself. The national anthem and the concert. Happy hour and the meal.
Before we go any further - let's get it straight that whilst all charismatics and pentecostals are evangelicals, not all evangelicals are charismatic/pentecostals. Most evangelicals I come across are level-headed Bible-focused (as opposed to experience/miracles/hype focused) normal people.
I can remember this being a particular hobby-horse for Gordon Cheng. He was of the view that to be properly Evangelical one must hold to a Reformed soteriology and to be deeply suspicious of anything charismatic. This, in fact, seems to be the view of most Sydney Anglicans and can be traced almost directly to the anti-charismatic polemics of Philip and Peter Jensen. However, this very narrow definition of Evangelism isn't so common outside of Sydney, but it does exist especially in Proclamation Trust circles.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Just a thought:
In my experience many yes but not all charismatics are evangelicals, I know several RC Charismatics....
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Dinghy Sailor
Ship's Jibsheet
# 8507
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
It's all got connotations, of course, like the Johnny Cash song, 'Your own personal Jesus'.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpYW3qng78E
I wondered who'd be the first to bring that up.
It's actually a Depeche Mode song.
Marilyn Manson's also covered it. Are we getting into Matt Black territory here?
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Preach Christ, because this old humanity has used up all hopes and expectations, but in Christ hope lives and remains.
Dietrich Bonhoeffer
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, I knew it was a cover-version and not penned by Cash. But doesn't he make a good job of it?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Sorry for posting and running, I was just heading out to church when I posted. Yes, things are more simplistic in Sunday School....but I've heard plenty of evangelical sermons that are equally simplistic, they just repeat the point endlessly. At least 10 minute sermons get the job done and then that's that ![[Biased]](wink.gif) While I certainly don't think that thinking of God as our Friend is inappropriate - God talks about 'Abraham my friend' in Isaiah - it's the lowest-common-denominator tone of 'God all matey' which feels inappropriate. I would imagine that a SA service is rather more dignified than that. I've been to both open and conservative evangelical churches (mostly Anglican but also NFI, independent charismatic, Baptist - a wide range) and 9 times out of 10 it feels irreverent, and not just because it's not 'high'. Methodist services (for instance) have felt perfectly reverent, as have Quaker meetings. I think it is possibly the combining mateyness with miracles? It's a kind of trying to be with God that misses the point of connection with God if that makes sense. My instinct would be that the Eucharist usually gets to what they're looking for and miss, although I have been to RC Mass that has felt much less reverent than a Quaker meeting....
That is all a bit of a stream of consciousness - apologies!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
God Almighty, not God all matey.
That's actually quite good.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think there can be a sense of reverence and indeed awe in some evangelical/charismatic settings at times ... I can certainly remember times like that from my involvement with that end of the spectrum.
However, I think there's been a growing tendency within that particular scene of equating informality and 'matey-ness' with spiritual authenticity.
Hence, in some quarters, the use of guitars and drum and bass is somehow seen as intrinsically more spiritual than, say, having an organ or a robed choir.
It works the other way round too, of course.
I do think that there are times within most evangeli-matic churches when there is certainly a sense of awe and reverence - and some of the songs are calculated to induce that.
But it's very inconsistent.
On the whole, a kind of sloppy, 'Hi God ...' type approach has become something of a standard ... partly, I submit, through the influence of the Vineyard.
That said, back in the 1980s I'd suggest that the Vineyard with its laid-back Californian style did bring a valid counter to the kind of huffing and puffing and pompous posturing of certain kinds of charismatic pulpiteering.
For 6 years I was happily part of a slightly emergent-style Baptist church which had some Vineyard influences and it had much to commend it ... but it did feel rather sloppy and irreverent at times, I must admit.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
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Posted
I can respect the comment Mudfrog reports, but I also think today is about the Universal nature of Christ, the grandeur, the Alpha and the Omega. I think an emphasis on the universailty of Christ in all creation is a wonderful end to the liturgical year and gets faith in context too - at least my faith, for me
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A witness of female resistance
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
God Almighty, not God all matey.
That's actually quite good.
Funny, I thought quite the opposite. If Almighty were the most important aspect, why Jesus?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
God Almighty, not God all matey.
That's actually quite good.
Funny, I thought quite the opposite. If Almighty were the most important aspect, why Jesus?
Hence the incarnate Christ's mighty resurrection, glorious ascension and eternal session.He has been glorified with the glory he had with the Father from the beginning.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Banner Lady
Ship's Ensign
# 10505
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Posted
You mean Jesus is NOT your personal friend and saviour?
I am shocked. And appalled. But carry on worshiping your impersonal God who may or may not save you if you must.... ![[Razz]](tongue.gif)
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Women in the church are not a problem to be solved, but a mystery to be enjoyed.
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Hence the incarnate Christ's mighty resurrection, glorious ascension and eternal session.He has been glorified with the glory he had with the Father from the beginning.
Again you emphasise the mighty. God had mighty and impersonal at the time of Jesus. God had the distance, the reverence. Jesus methods and demeanor were much more personal. This is how I see the message of personal Jesus. Not that it is to displace awe, but to compliment.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Hence the incarnate Christ's mighty resurrection, glorious ascension and eternal session.He has been glorified with the glory he had with the Father from the beginning.
Again you emphasise the mighty. God had mighty and impersonal at the time of Jesus. God had the distance, the reverence. Jesus methods and demeanor were much more personal. This is how I see the message of personal Jesus. Not that it is to displace awe, but to compliment.
I'm quoting Christian liturgy. I'm not sure if the phrase is just Anglican via the BCP or if it has more ancient origins.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Where does this notion come from that somehow only the 'worst sort' of evangelicals are over emotional and subjective in their faith come from? Or that that sort of thing is reprehensible and faith is only respectable if it's restrained and rather enervated? What about
quote:
Soul of Christ, sanctify me
Body of Christ, save me
Blood of Christ, inebriate me
Water from the side of Christ, wash me
Passion of Christ, strengthen me
O good Jesus, hear me
Within Thy wounds hide me ... etc
Do all Shipmates recognise which famous prayer these words come from?
Or is 'enthusiasm' OK if it's clad in a soutane or illuminated by six candles? And otherwise, may hearts only be strangely warmed if the ribcages in which they were once cased have been under the earth for at least 200 years?
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I keep getting into trouble on these boards for suggesting that certain forms of Scholastic Christianity - late medieval Thomas Aquinas style and certain forms of Calvinism - do veer into speculative and rather cold, calculating and somewhat arid forms of faith.
You'll never get into trouble with me. I agree with you..
Not only that. IMHO neither Aquinas nor Calvin themselves are guilty of this. It's more a failing of what I'd call sub-Thomists and sub-Calvinists, who treat their respective master as a vade mecum in his own right.
Going back to the OP, it's interesting but less surprising than one might think, that St Ignatius is quite popular and highly regarded among many more serious evangelicals. They may not be very keen on thinking with the Pope, but much in the exercises and the importance of one's personal response resonates with them.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway
God Almighty, not God all matey.
But if God is the Almighty (which, of course, He is), then He has every right to be "all matey" with whomever He wants, without certain Christians telling Him what He can and cannot do.
I always find it ironic that those who are so eager to stress the more authoritarian aspects of God, often then imply that God can only act in certain ways consistent with their particular rather austere picture of Him. If the sovereign and supreme judge wishes to have close, intimate and, one could almost say, pally relationships with His people, then none of us has any right to tell Him that He cannot do so.
So it really could be a case of God being both Almighty and all matey.
[ 24. November 2013, 21:45: Message edited by: EtymologicalEvangelical ]
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
When they combine the personal and friend with miracles, then there's trouble. I get the happy ecstasy feelings, but like the lust, giddiness and puppy love at the start of a relationship, it's not something of steady diet. There's the cartoons and ads before a movie and then the movie itself. The national anthem and the concert. Happy hour and the meal.
Before we go any further - let's get it straight that whilst all charismatics and pentecostals are evangelicals, not all evangelicals are charismatic/pentecostals. Most evangelicals I come across are level-headed Bible-focused (as opposed to experience/miracles/hype focused) normal people.
And sometimes-- just maybe-- you might even find a level-headed Bible-focused normal Pentecostal. It happens.
Present company excepted, of course. ![[Cool]](cool.gif)
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
... So it really could be a case of God being both Almighty and all matey.
Isn't that what grace is about? A supreme paradox?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Why is it a paradox?
I see no contradiction - apparent or otherwise - in a being who is both supreme and able to relate intimately to every person.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Why is it a paradox?
I see no contradiction - apparent or otherwise - in a being who is both supreme and able to relate intimately to every person.
Indeed. I believe understanding the transcendence of God-- the Almighty, Holy, omni-ness-- makes the imminence-- the nearness-- of God all the more amazing and wonderful.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I guess I'm somewhere in the middle. I don't have a very authoritarian view of God, but I wouldn't find it very helpful to call Him my buddy either.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Abba, Father- authority over me and the one who holds me in his arms.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
Posts: 21377 | From: CA | Registered: May 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
Is it wrong that I can't see the phrase "personal Jesus" without Kelly's rendition of "Your Personal Penguin" popping in to my mind?
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So it really could be a case of God being both Almighty and all matey.
It could be. But the question isn't what could be, but what is. Because we can imagine God being this way or that doesn't make it so.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So it really could be a case of God being both Almighty and all matey.
It could be. But the question isn't what could be, but what is. Because we can imagine God being this way or that doesn't make it so.
That is a relevant comment no matter which way you view God.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
So it really could be a case of God being both Almighty and all matey.
It could be. But the question isn't what could be, but what is. Because we can imagine God being this way or that doesn't make it so.
That is a relevant comment no matter which way you view God.
Absolutely. Including if you view God as not existing. What should matter is what is. Or what isn't, if what is isn't.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
But how does one determine what IS?
My concern with the those who dislike a Personal Jesus is that they are championing a distant, vengeful, rigid God. One who values form over function. Why do I, an outsider care? In part it is selfish. Those folk tend to be the less tolerant. And that affects me, as such judgement rarely stops at cathedral door. An additional reason is the contempt I hear in it. Contempt is a form of bullying, and I dislike this, no matter who is being bullied.
Lastly, I think such attitude completely misses Jesus time on Earth, the manner in which he dealt with those around him. So, IMO, it is logically inconsistent with what is written in your book.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway
God Almighty, not God all matey.
But if God is the Almighty (which, of course, He is), then He has every right to be "all matey" with whomever He wants, without certain Christians telling Him what He can and cannot do.
I agree. My comment was about the theological emphasis of the festival of Christ the King. If Christ the King is about the transcendence and sovereignty of the ascended Christ (God Almighty), then Christmas is about the immanence and humanity of Christ (God all matey). It'll soon be Advent when traditionally we contemplate the parousia, Christ as Judge. It seems to me that a balanced view of Jesus holds all of these things together: sovereignty, humanity, authority, compassion and so on. However, we have certain days when we focus on certain things more closely. Hence my comments.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Better to think that the far off has become near?
quote:
As a friend talking with a friend, man speaks with God, and drawing near in confidence, he stands before the face of the One who dwells in light unapproachable. St Symeon the New Theologian
I'm not Orthodox, rather nonconformist, but I find that helpful. So far as the paradox issue is concerned, of course God is Mystery. If He were not, He would not be God. Think that's another saying of an early church father, as well. And unarguable.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Why is it a paradox?
I see no contradiction - apparent or otherwise - in a being who is both supreme and able to relate intimately to every person.
Neither do I.
My problem with God isn't either of those things. It's the lack of detail! Whether relating as Almighty Father or Abba Father, God is fuzzy to me.
Yes, Jesus helps - His time on Earth gives many lessons, but even these have to be dug out.
I want an easier God!
[ 25. November 2013, 07:33: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
lilBuddha, as someone who is very rude about the personal Jesus I see some people keep in their pockets it's because I see that belief go along with prayer as a shopping list and thanks being given to God for any help received whilst ignoring the human agency through which that help was given.
I would see prayer as alignment with God's will and a chance to listen to hear that will rather than issuing a list of demands. The worst I've heard in that situation was a demand that all the other Christians in ton stopped obstructing some wizard wheeze and fell in line with the one true vision.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
But who is this King?
He's that bloke bleeding to death, nailed to a piece of wood.
I'm not surprised at the "personal Jesus" thing coming from a Jesuit. One of the standard practices of Ignatian spirituality is to imagine yourself into one the the gospel stories. You imagine Jesus involving you in the narrative, you may be asked to describe your feelings towards Jesus and imagine his feelings towards you. I've never been able to do it, myself, and I don't like being asked to try. Evidently the Jesuits haven't heard of Derrida's "there is nothing outside the text". (Not an exact quote, I know, but usually considered close enough.)
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
I've never been able to do it, myself, and I don't like being asked to try. Evidently the Jesuits haven't heard of Derrida's "there is nothing outside the text". (Not an exact quote, I know, but usually considered close enough.)
Isn't that a non sequitur?
It doesn't work for me.
∴ it must be wrong.
AND I can quote a hip philosopher in my support.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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