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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Slightest Discomfort
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I usually kneel for the communion prayer etc. at my church, and other than the minister I am the only person that does so (out of a large congregation). I decided that my choosing to kneel was a matter between me and God and no-one else's business, so I would say if you want to kneel then you should do so and try not to worry about what other people think - they should have more important things to think about during communion anyway...
That was my attitude at my former church, which was Anglo Catholic.
Having been effectively thrown out of that church, I have taken refuge in a more middle of the road church, and am wary of being too different until I understand the full range of people present. There are a lot who are very, very different indeed, and most who are in the middle. I am trying to find a way to belong, and that is hard enough without importing all my former A/C behaviours as well.
If I feel safer in time then they may return.
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Vade Mecum
Shipmate
# 17688
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Water is never included in fasting;
Ministers who have three services every Sunday morning can't be expected to survive all of that without breakfast, but for the average person there can be great benefits in adopting some difference in the daily routine on the day they are going to Mass, from that of any other day.
Water used to be forbidden - Bishop Mervyn Stockwood's autobiography mentions fear of cleaning his teeth in case he swallows some water. (And muslims still don't drink water during Ramadan's daylight hours)
Priests weren't supposed to eat or drink until the last mass they'd celebrated (often the non-communicating high mass at 11, ending after noon) - we used to have an odd way of doing the ablutions so that they didn't include extra, unconsecrated wine or water - I think it was called 'bination.'
Bination refers simply to celebrating twice in one day: to trinate is to celebrate thrice, as priests are dispensed to do at Easter and All Souls; there are even dark tidings of poor buggers who quadrinate for 'pastoral necessity' (that catch-all justification which is almost as good as Canon B5...).
The practice to which you refer was (I think) to refrain from abluting the remains of the first mass until the ablutions of the second (or third, or eighty-first...) and then to take both together, thus preserving the fast. You might mean something else, but that's the practice I know. It doubtless made more sense when ablutions were universally done after Mass at a side altar or sacrarium, rather than after Communion, as now.
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I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
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leo
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# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Bishop Mervyn Stockwood's autobiography mentions fear of cleaning his teeth in case he swallows some water.
Wasn't that Harry Williams?
No, Stockwood - he also told me personally over one of those typical lunches of his where one had no choice but to listen.
It wouldn't surprise me of Fr. Harry had similar phobias before his breakdown. endlessly.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Vade Mecum:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
Water is never included in fasting;
Ministers who have three services every Sunday morning can't be expected to survive all of that without breakfast, but for the average person there can be great benefits in adopting some difference in the daily routine on the day they are going to Mass, from that of any other day.
Water used to be forbidden - Bishop Mervyn Stockwood's autobiography mentions fear of cleaning his teeth in case he swallows some water. (And muslims still don't drink water during Ramadan's daylight hours)
Priests weren't supposed to eat or drink until the last mass they'd celebrated (often the non-communicating high mass at 11, ending after noon) - we used to have an odd way of doing the ablutions so that they didn't include extra, unconsecrated wine or water - I think it was called 'bination.'
Bination refers simply to celebrating twice in one day: to trinate is to celebrate thrice, as priests are dispensed to do at Easter and All Souls; there are even dark tidings of poor buggers who quadrinate for 'pastoral necessity' (that catch-all justification which is almost as good as Canon B5...).
The practice to which you refer was (I think) to refrain from abluting the remains of the first mass until the ablutions of the second (or third, or eighty-first...) and then to take both together, thus preserving the fast. You might mean something else, but that's the practice I know. It doubtless made more sense when ablutions were universally done after Mass at a side altar or sacrarium, rather than after Communion, as now.
Yes, you're right - to quote myself (Church Times Questions' quote:
This describes the ritual for ‘bination’, which took place: when a priest celebrated more than one eucharist on the same day. As he had to receive communion a second time, he would be breaking the fast from midnight if he consumed unconsecrated wine at the ablutions
‘The wine that is poured into the chalice’ refers to that which is used to cleanse it after the priest and people having already partaken of the blood of Christ. The wine that is poured ‘upon his fingers’ was used to remove particles from the wafers.
This practice has ceased because we have relaxed the fasting rules and only use water for the ablutions.
CT Oct 2009
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
I keep seeing posters explaining why they, personally, are not able to kneel or fast or both. Pardon me for my ignorance if I'm incorrect, but I was under the distinct impression that the OP specifically was talking about people who are able to kneel and who are able to fast. Me, in other words. I never eat breakfast on Sunday mornings, for a variety of reasons, and am perfectly okay with that. And I've only met one set of kneelers that made kneeling difficult. I surely am not the only person on earth who is able to fast and kneel.
The rule is, and has always been, if you're physically unable to kneel, for whatever reason, then you aren't expected to do so. In some cases, such as in the Eucharistic prayer of 79 BCP (TEC), you are invited to stand or kneel. But if you must remain sitting, then no one is going to bat an eye.
Similarly, if you're diabetic or take morning medications or hypoglycemic or one of a number of other things, and thus you must eat breakfast without fail, then by all means do so. A) no one knows if you don't tell them, and B) your continued existence is more important than whether or not you eat. Besides, the minimum fasting time is an hour before mass - very easy for an 11:00 service, and still do-able for a 9:00.
Besides, if you can't fully fast, how about cutting out the meat, or some other aspect that you enjoy but can remove without harm? For instance, I might need to eat breakfast in order to not fall into diabetic shock, but how simple can my breakfast be? What can I trim out this one morning every week to help me remember Christ and his sacrifice?
And if you're not led to do any of the above, then so be it. Those who do fast shouldn't judge those who do not, and vice-versa.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
I choose not to kneel and not to fast. They are relics of a bygone era.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I would prefer to kneel to pray in church. Alas, there isn't any room to kneel in either of the churches here, possibly by design of staunch Calvinists of a previous generation who considered kneeling to be Papist idolatry. But then I suspect that of being the reason for almost every idiosyncrasy I find here.
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Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550
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Posted
Caissa wrote:
quote:
I choose not to kneel and not to fast. They are relics of a bygone era.
Jesus fasted. If mattered to Jesus, why does it not matter to us?
I hate fasting - I find it hard work, and when I do fast, I do not always manage to do so properly. Family life gets in the way. But I'm becoming increasingly convinced that we really, really need to concentrate on spirituality. And nearly all Christian traditions include fasting.
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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
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Caissa
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# 16710
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Posted
Jesus was crucified. Should we go and do likewise?
[ 15. August 2013, 18:40: Message edited by: Caissa ]
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Comper's Child
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# 10580
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
I'm not sure where to put this and expect it to sink like a stone, but I've been wondering about the fairly recent phenomenon of Christians, (especially Anglicans as they are the ones I know best)to be extremely afraid of the slightest discomfort in church.
Preach It !
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
Jesus was crucified. Should we go and do likewise?
If need be, yes. He did tell us to take up the cross and follow him.
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Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
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Trickydicky
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# 16550
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Posted
quote:
quote:Originally posted by Caissa:
Jesus was crucified. Should we go and do likewise?
If need be, yes. He did tell us to take up the cross and follow him.
Thankyou, Barefoot Friar.
Caissa, we seem to have lost contact with the divine. We cannot 'fake' it, but perhaps there are things we can do or should be doing which makes it easier for God to reach us. And Jesus found that fasting worked for him.
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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I keep seeing posters explaining why they, personally, are not able to kneel or fast or both. Pardon me for my ignorance if I'm incorrect, but I was under the distinct impression that the OP specifically was talking about people who are able to kneel and who are able to fast.
Of course, my question to the OP is why are you judging people?
I do understand that Mama Thomas is a priest with cure of souls, but that to me means triply you should catechize and then get out of the way of the person's relationship with God.
But that's just me.
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Caissa:
I choose not to kneel and not to fast. They are relics of a bygone era.
So's yer avatar. ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
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flags_fiend
Shipmate
# 12211
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I usually kneel for the communion prayer etc. at my church, and other than the minister I am the only person that does so (out of a large congregation). I decided that my choosing to kneel was a matter between me and God and no-one else's business, so I would say if you want to kneel then you should do so and try not to worry about what other people think - they should have more important things to think about during communion anyway...
That was my attitude at my former church, which was Anglo Catholic.
Having been effectively thrown out of that church, I have taken refuge in a more middle of the road church, and am wary of being too different until I understand the full range of people present. There are a lot who are very, very different indeed, and most who are in the middle. I am trying to find a way to belong, and that is hard enough without importing all my former A/C behaviours as well.
If I feel safer in time then they may return.
I don't think kneeling to pray is particularly A/C, the church I go to is low con-evo C of E (if I understand the terminology correctly) and the few times people have mentioned to me that they noticed me kneeling has basically been to say that it seems an appropriate thing to do, they just choose not to themselves. No-one has ever said anything to me that suggests they think it is odd. Incidentally everyone who is able to does kneel to take communion at the rail at the front, so I suppose in some ways I am just extending that time of kneeling to be longer for me, which I find helpful for concentrating on the words being said and thinking about what it means (rather than being distracted).
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"Time is an illusion. Lunchtime doubly so."
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Luke 18 doesn't allow people to get too self-righteous about fasting, though:
"Two men went up into the temple to pray;
one was a Pharisee, and the other was a tax collector.
The Pharisee stood and prayed to himself like this:
‘God, I thank you, that I am not like the rest of men, extortioners, unrighteous, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
I fast twice a week. I give tithes of all that I get.’
But the tax collector, standing far away, wouldn’t even lift up his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying,
‘God, be merciful to me, a sinner!’
Interesting that they didn't kneel, either. I expect the ground was rather dusty in those days.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Kneeling is just a custom of some churches. Not a bad custom, but not, you know, necessary.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Plique-ŕ-jour
Shipmate
# 17717
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
I keep seeing posters explaining why they, personally, are not able to kneel or fast or both. Pardon me for my ignorance if I'm incorrect, but I was under the distinct impression that the OP specifically was talking about people who are able to kneel and who are able to fast.
But how can you tell what people's reasons are?
I kneel if I'm in a pew. If I'm in a lightweight chair which will knock into the person behind me if I try to scoot onto and off of it during the liturgy, I sit.
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
On the other hand, at a church where I worked the 8a.m. service was a Low Mass, and employed a server of riper years who walked a mile to get to church. After the eighth or seventeenth time he had to retire to the vestry feeling faint, we invented an ancient tradition that his walk to church made him a pilgrim, and that pilgrims are excused fasting. After that, he used to arrive at church fully cornflaked and he and we were a lot happier.
Let's hear it for new ancient traditions! My family banned fasting before church when I fainted one morning, as a child. I've never thought about it since.
But also, seems to me when Jesus mentioned fasting he wasn't referring to Sunday mornings. I read that Wesley fasted Wednesdays and Fridays until 4 pm. That makes more sense to me, a fast as a thing in itself, not just a prelude.
Besides, if Sunday is a feast day, breakfast should be a special celebratory meal, not absent!
But the water bottle thing, I've been puzzling recently what happened, we never used to think we needed to have a bottle of water in hand at all times. Were public water fountains more common?
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I don't think kneeling to pray is particularly A/C,
IME, kneeling to pray is normal in most A/C places, and also most traditional MOTR places. Slump-to-pray seems to be more common in "modern" MOTR places that have done away with pews in favour of chairs, and probably also tend towards modern praise band-type music. In the one evo place I've been, sit-to-pray, as opposed to slump, seemed to be the norm, but I don't want to draw conclusions from one visit to one church.
I think there's value in having the congregation do the same things, as a sign of unified corporate prayer or something, but that's not a very strong opinion, so if you feel that as an act of personal piety you should adopt a posture that is not the norm in your church, and as long as you're not doing it to draw attention to yourself, go ahead.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
Fasting communion -
I'm nosebleed high and followed what I understood the Roman rule were: fasting for one hour before communion, although bona fide medicine doesn't count.
And with a one hour service, that doesn't mean much.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I'm not worried about what others think of me.
However there are congregations where it would be inconsiderate to others to stand when they are sitting in a church with no kneeling room.
In which case I sit on the edge of the seat, with both feet planted on the floor a bit apart, and my back straight - the classic meditation position.
This in fact require more physical attention - discomfort if you like - than kneeling in a pew with my bum resting on the bench and my arms on the pew rest.
And no, the eucharist is not an occasion for private devotion, but corporate liturgical action.
[ 16. August 2013, 07:50: Message edited by: venbede ]
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Belle Ringer:
But the water bottle thing, I've been puzzling recently what happened, we never used to think we needed to have a bottle of water in hand at all times. Were public water fountains more common?
My former church had vast clouds of incense. I used to be aware of the occasional cough turning into something more, and would take the person concerned a glass of water from our kitchen. It did not happen every service, but often enough.
I carry a bottle of water myself for the same kind of eventuality. Not as a drink, but in case it is needed. And because I habitually dissociate when stressed, and the water can help me to remain grounded.
[ 16. August 2013, 07:54: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I don't think kneeling to pray is particularly A/C,
IME, kneeling to pray is normal in most A/C places, and also most traditional MOTR places.
That may well be the case, but I am not familiar enough with my new church to know for certain.
It is difficult enough to adapt to a new home, without deciding to behave exactly as I did in the former one, without regard for it being a different tradition. As has been said by other people, I am worshipping with a new congregation, within a church with its own traditions, some familiar, some less so. I am not an individual bringing my own individuality into a collection of other individuals, like on a trip to the supermarket.
[ 16. August 2013, 07:59: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by flags_fiend:
I don't think kneeling to pray is particularly A/C,
IME, kneeling to pray is normal in most A/C places, and also most traditional MOTR places.
Pond difference. I suspect many if not most 'anglo-catholic' churches in the US have clung onto old devotional and ceremonial customs which most in the UK have discarded in the light of Vatican 2. But I'm only guessing, from what I have picked up here on the Ship. Please correct me if I am wrong.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Trisagion
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# 5235
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Posted
'. . . in the light of Vatican 2' seems a bit of a stretch.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Pond difference. I suspect many if not most 'anglo-catholic' churches in the US have clung onto old devotional and ceremonial customs which most in the UK have discarded in the light of Vatican 2. But I'm only guessing, from what I have picked up here on the Ship. Please correct me if I am wrong.
From the churches I know (which is not really many) the practice varies depending on the extent to which it happens to have an A/C priest who moves the church gradually higher, or has a genuine high tradition of its own.
In the first kind (as with my former church) there will be grumbling at every 'Roman' practice, exaggerated coughing and waving of service orders as the incense passes, and not much kneeling. Genuine A/Cs will be in the minority; we probably only had three, not including the Vicar. Two now I am gone. The rest thought A/Cm is only about keeping women out of the pulpit.
In the latter, most people will be genuinely A/C and understand what it means. They will be likely to kneel if they possibly can, and sometimes even if they can't. And there must be a gradation in between the two.
I went to a +Richborough Year of Faith event at the Abbey a couple of weeks ago, and there was lots of kneeling, lots of bowing and curtseying to the Bishop, lots and lots of loveliness. Other A/C churches from my town were represented, and I met lots of old friends, but there was nobody from my former church.
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
'. . . in the light of Vatican 2' seems a bit of a stretch.
Broad brush, Trisagion! Gross generalisation and exaggeration, I agree, but English anglo-catholicism has been influenced by modern RC trends to a greater extent than in the States. I believe.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
'. . . in the light of Vatican 2' seems a bit of a stretch.
I think this is true enough. Although some more liberal A/Cs accept Vatican 2 happily enough, I know plenty of more traditional ones who take no notice of it whatsoever. If pride were not such a sin, they could be said to take great pride in remaining resolutely unVatican2d.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
[ 16. August 2013, 08:56: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
[QUOTE]I went to a +Richborough Year of Faith event at the Abbey a couple of weeks ago, and there was lots of kneeling, lots of bowing and curtseying to the Bishop, lots and lots of loveliness.
I'm sure you won't but please don't forget that there will be a good number from within your own communion - let alone people in the street - who find this strange and, in all probability, a remnant of a best forgotten past.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
... I sit on the edge of the seat, with both feet planted on the floor a bit apart, and my back straight - the classic meditation position.
This in fact require more physical attention - discomfort if you like - than kneeling in a pew with my bum resting on the bench and my arms on the pew rest.
This is similar to what I do, partly because I have bad knees and partly because I was taught that position in some meditation sessions I used to go to years ago.
I have given up kneeling almost entirely apart from when receiving at the altar rails, which I can manage. When I tried kneeling for an extended time once my knees hurt so much I thought blow this, what's the point!? It certainly didn't encourage any devotion!
In my shack we stand for corporate prayer, which I like to do. And as Chorister mused, 1st century Jews prayed standing...
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
[QUOTE]I went to a +Richborough Year of Faith event at the Abbey a couple of weeks ago, and there was lots of kneeling, lots of bowing and curtseying to the Bishop, lots and lots of loveliness.
I'm sure you won't but please don't forget that there will be a good number from within your own communion - let alone people in the street - who find this strange and, in all probability, a remnant of a best forgotten past.
I do not regard any of this as a remnant of a best forgotten past, least of all an Anglican past. The past has precious little to do with it, imo; present A/C practice has about the same relationship with Anglican history as Gibson's Braveheart has to Scottish history.
Anglicanism is a very broad church, and rightly so. The A/C side of the church meets the needs of people in the church today, to worship in a particular way, for a particular reason. But we are worshipping God in 2013. It is just as modern in its own way as all those OHPs and guitars in the evangelical church down the road. Both are modern expressions of spirituality.
To discount A/C worship or practice as 'best forgotten' is to do a disservice to thousands of devout, conscientious people. We don't do that to evangelical or mainstream Anglicans; why do it to A/Cs?
[ 16. August 2013, 09:25: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
[QUOTE]To discount A/C worship or practice as 'best forgotten' is to do a disservice to thousands of devout, conscientious people. We don't do that to evangelical or mainstream Anglicans; why do it to A/Cs?
I didn't say I agree with such an opinion but it is there. It may not be expressed in the same way but A-C's are not always kind to evangelical or mainstream Anglicans either.
The in fighting is one of the reasons why I left the Anglican church.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I didn't say I agree with such an opinion but it is there. It may not be expressed in the same way but A-C's are not always kind to evangelical or mainstream Anglicans either.
The in fighting is one of the reasons why I left the Anglican church.
I am sorry to hear that, but I can understand it totally.
I am with you on the in fighting. It is a disgrace, from whatever source. I like the breadth of Anglicanism, and would defend any part of it that was in danger of marginalisation or worse. Not that my defence would make any difference, but I would try.
[ 16. August 2013, 09:59: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
'. . . in the light of Vatican 2' seems a bit of a stretch.
Well... 'following Roman Catholic practices that have become common in Western Europe in the years since Vatican II regardless of what the Council itself might have said' then!
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Flinging wide the gates...
Posts: 10335 | From: Hanging in the balance of the reality of man | Registered: Jun 2003
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
I didn't say I agree with such an opinion but it is there. It may not be expressed in the same way but A-C's are not always kind to evangelical or mainstream Anglicans either.
The in fighting is one of the reasons why I left the Anglican church.
I am sorry to hear that, but I can understand it totally.
I am with you on the in fighting. It is a disgrace, from whatever source. I like the breadth of Anglicanism, and would defend any part of it that was in danger of marginalisation or worse. Not that my defence would make any difference, but I would try.
I tried in 1984 and it didn't work for me -- ok I can kind of sort myself out but the final straw was people tut tutting at my supposedly badly behaved 3 and 2 year olds. They smiled and said hello - a lot. They still do. Not that there were many children there anyway: I knew why.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
'. . . in the light of Vatican 2' seems a bit of a stretch.
Broad brush, Trisagion! Gross generalisation and exaggeration, I agree, but English anglo-catholicism has been influenced by modern RC trends to a greater extent than in the States. I believe.
I think it is fairer (in Canada, at any rate) to say that modern RC trends and middle-of-the-road Anglicanism have a lot in common, as far as externalities go. But this may be a local thing.
Perhaps one of the problems of contemporary Anglicanism have been identified in this thread-- a strong opinion that one current model of practice is the best-suited for this period and other models are, at best, to be tolerated. Inclusivity is a word which seems to be used by many of us only when provided with a long nose on which to look down.
As far as standing rather than kneeling goes, we are no more obliged to used ancient Jewish practice than any other. But perhaps one might be permitted to use the monastic staff of the eastern churches, to prop oneself up as the event goes on? My trusty adjustable Kompardell hiking stick might come in handy in such parishes, although it is not in a liturgical colour.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trickydicky:
1) One of my congregation collapsed during my sermon (!) I went to visit her is casualty. The nurse in the hospital said that Sunday mornings could be quite busy with elderly people who had struggled to get to church and had missed breakfast.
2) In our church, during prayers, no-one 'slumps'. We merely adopt the Methodist Shampoo position. Hands on knees, head in hands, fingers running through hair...
But I agree with the OP. Jesus fasted. So should we. But it seems you can only fast if you are trying to lose weight or if you are trying to raise money for Oxfam.
My mother was raised in a Pentecostal family, and she used to tell me about the fasting they used to do. (It wasn't in connection with Lent.) But I never saw my mother fast, and she never introduced me to fasting. She raised me in the Methodist church and I remained faithful until recently; but I've never heard a Methodist sermon or a small group talk about the value of fasting, not even in relation to Lent. There's a cultural remnant of 'giving something up for Lent', but that hardly equates to fasting. And in any case, most churches still dish out the cakes and the chocolate biscuits during Lent.
I think it's a shame that fasting is so alien to mainstream Christian culture. Yes, you can do it alone, but in most cultures and religions it's something you do as part of a community of people who support each other.
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Sergius-Melli
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# 17462
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
To discount A/C worship or practice as 'best forgotten' is to do a disservice to thousands of devout, conscientious people. We don't do that to evangelical or mainstream Anglicans; why do it to A/Cs?
The best person (despite all his other faults) I have heard put these sentiments across was ++George. As he wrote in Living Tradition:
quote:
Nurtured though I was in Evangelical Anglicanism, I have grown in my appreciation of the Catholic tradition: its vigour, its understanding of ministry, its colourful history, but perhaps above all, its spirituality...But I also greet you as an Archbishop of Canterbury who believes your importance is not limited simply to the history of our Church. Yours is a key witness if its future is to be healthy. I have no doubt that the integrity of Catholicism is vital for the well-being and future of Anglicanism. The decline of Anglican Catholicism...hurts us all. Its demise in the Church of England would be a tragedy.
And he goes on to explain what he means, but also most importantly how damaging it is to view ourselves in terms of 'parties'/'factions' within the Anglican Church.
Posts: 722 | From: Sneaking across Welsh hill and dale with a thurible in hand | Registered: Dec 2012
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I think it's a shame that fasting is so alien to mainstream Christian culture. Yes, you can do it alone, but in most cultures and religions it's something you do as part of a community of people who support each other.
There's something very important here that svet may not have intended and I have not been able to articulate.
If there's a common practice, then there's no need for self consciousness in adopting it (am I really, really sincere in doing it?) and no need for others to regard it as personal self righteousness on the part of those who adopt it.
I'm not thinking so much of fasting as using other ritual actions like kneeling or standing for prayer.
Obviously the accepted ritual actions may differ between traditions, as svit's mentions of pentecostals reminds me. But common actions are not so much important in themselves as a way of relating to something that is bigger than my individual experience.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Bishops and priests frequently request for a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit or credence and I've even it placed on the altar a couple of times.
If I'm preaching or speaking, at church or anywhere else, I'll have a glass of water. A workman has to look after his tools. It makes no more sense to try ot preach without some water for yur throat than it does to try to drive the church minibus without having oil in the whatever-it-is-that-vans-need-oil-for.
I take my authority from the great Chalrles Spurgeon who liked to have brandy-and-water to hand when speaking. They don't make Baptists like that any more
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
One of our duties as server is to ensure that there are glasses of water at the pulpit and for the priest, deacon and sub-deacon. Just water though, and I was brought p to understand that drinking water was not breaking a fast.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I would prefer to kneel to pray in church. Alas, there isn't any room to kneel in either of the churches here, possibly by design of staunch Calvinists of a previous generation who considered kneeling to be Papist idolatry. But then I suspect that of being the reason for almost every idiosyncrasy I find here.
As a staunch Calvinist kneeling is alien to me, but I don't know why this should be so. (If I'm on holiday, attending a church where people are kneeling, I do what everyone else is doing.)
I have knelt on precisely three occasions; when I was at the front being blessed after my first Communion, after our wedding, and after being ordained an elder.
Why don't Calvinists kneel? I've never questioned it. I know it's part of the no-idolatry theology, but where does it come from?
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Cottontail
Shipmate
# 12234
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Bishops and priests frequently request for a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit or credence and I've even it placed on the altar a couple of times.
If I'm preaching or speaking, at church or anywhere else, I'll have a glass of water. A workman has to look after his tools. It makes no more sense to try ot preach without some water for yur throat than it does to try to drive the church minibus without having oil in the whatever-it-is-that-vans-need-oil-for.
I take my authority from the great Chalrles Spurgeon who liked to have brandy-and-water to hand when speaking. They don't make Baptists like that any more
Cottontail's Tip of the Day: Better by far than water (though perhaps not better than brandy!) is flavoured water or flat lemonade. If you have a serious tickle in the throat, water doesn't help much, but the sugar in lemonade soothes like a cough mixture.
I discovered this unexpectedly in one church I was visiting, when I took a swig of water and found myself swallowing some peach-flavoured concoction. It was vile. But it worked.
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"I don't think you ought to read so much theology," said Lord Peter. "It has a brutalizing influence."
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
For those wondering on the Reformed (Presbyterian/Congregational etc) then this article looks as if it is scholarly tracing of the tradition.
Reformed Worship is a website worth visiting for those interested in the Reformed Worship Tradition and Practice. It is classical Reformed in stance so expect problems with discerning whether this is Evangelical or Liberal. I know people indicative of both stances published on there.
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
My mother was raised in a Pentecostal family, and she used to tell me about the fasting they used to do. (It wasn't in connection with Lent.) But I never saw my mother fast, and she never introduced me to fasting.
My daughter lives with me. She has never 'seen' me fast either. She may or may not realise that I even do it, but I certainly don't talk about it.
There is no need for anyone else to know; it is easy enough to make small adjustments without being too obvious about it.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sergius-Melli:
And he goes on to explain what he means, but also most importantly how damaging it is to view ourselves in terms of 'parties'/'factions' within the Anglican Church.
I would agree with that. A/C worship is no more a faction than mainstream or evangelical. It is more a matter of preference within one communion; a continuum.
[ 17. August 2013, 13:48: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Anglo Catholic Relict
If it's important to you I don't know why you wouldn't talk about it with your own daughter. It might be of benefit to her own spiritual growth.
But I fully accept that we all do what feels best to us.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anglo Catholic Relict
If it's important to you I don't know why you wouldn't talk about it with your own daughter. It might be of benefit to her own spiritual growth.
But I fully accept that we all do what feels best to us.
Well, my daughter already thinks me enough of a religious nut, I am a bit reluctant to make that worse. And I have always done my best not to interfere in her spiritual journey; I trust the Lord to manage that one himself.
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
For those wondering on the Reformed (Presbyterian/Congregational etc) then this article looks as if it is scholarly tracing of the tradition.
It is worryingly satisfying to have one's prejudices confirmed.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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