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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Slightest Discomfort
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Anglo Catholic Relict
If it's important to you I don't know why you wouldn't talk about it with your own daughter. It might be of benefit to her own spiritual growth.
But I fully accept that we all do what feels best to us.
Well, my daughter already thinks me enough of a religious nut, I am a bit reluctant to make that worse. And I have always done my best not to interfere in her spiritual journey; I trust the Lord to manage that one himself.
![[Smile]](smile.gif)
Ah well, if you're concerned about being teased by your daughter because of your religious habits I can understand that. My mother didn't face that issue with me.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
I take my authority from the great Chalrles Spurgeon who liked to have brandy-and-water to hand when speaking. They don't make Baptists like that any more
Following in Spurgeon's footsteps is, of course, the only reason why I partake of the occasional cigar.
Posts: 3355 | Registered: Jan 2011
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Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550
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Posted
Are things like posture in prayer, fasting etc. a recognition that our body is part of who we are, and any spirituality must include the body? Would worship be different if we'd just run a marathon, not had breakfast, or rolled out of bed and driven 100 yards to church after a bacon butty?
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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
Posts: 57 | From: Greater Manchester | Registered: Jul 2011
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I always find that, if I don't eat for a while, I really appreciate the next thing that I eat, when I finally start eating again. I wonder if, therefore, the appreciation of the host is increased by not eating anything since the previous night? If so, that could be a positive reason to fast (rather than seen as a denial of something).
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
. . . If so, that could be a positive reason to fast (rather than seen as a denial of something).
I am interested by this remark and have noticed similar sentiments expressed by a number of Shipmates on several occasions, particularly around Lenten observances. The "I'm not giving up anything this year. I'm going to take up this or that instead." approach.
What's behind it? Is there some reason for why we feel uncomfortable with the idea of fasting/abstaining from something?
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
Posts: 3923 | Registered: Nov 2003
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
. . . If so, that could be a positive reason to fast (rather than seen as a denial of something).
I am interested by this remark and have noticed similar sentiments expressed by a number of Shipmates on several occasions, particularly around Lenten observances. The "I'm not giving up anything this year. I'm going to take up this or that instead." approach.
What's behind it? Is there some reason for why we feel uncomfortable with the idea of fasting/abstaining from something?
It may be that they have been cautioned against giving up something for vanity or dieting concerns. Everybody diets nowadays, or goes gluten-free or vegan or something. Perhaps people are judging that fasting for Lent might be a little too convenient for their ideal eating habits or desired body image, and choosing to forgo it.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Yes, there's a very strong association now with diets / slimming.
But the idea of the food you are given after a fast being extra desirable - I reckon there's mileage in that.
[ 21. August 2013, 21:54: Message edited by: Chorister ]
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Bishops and priests frequently request for a glass of water or something to be placed on the pulpit or credence and I've even it placed on the altar a couple of times.
Our priest sometimes has a glass of water available, from which she will take a sip if her voice gives out in the middle of the sermon. She doesn't keep it there just in case she feels a bit thirsty.
Again, our context is a little different. I get through about a litre and a half of water during a Eucharistic hour, more in the "build-up" and Wet seasons (which are just beginning now). It's not to moisten my throat but to replace approximately the same amount that I sweat during an hour and a quarter ... It's a serious health issue in this climate. The alb has to be washed each week, though the chazzie generally survives (but for health reasons I remove it post-communion, as another few minutes in it would be too much. I am already approaching light-headedness by then).
In six weeks I'll be back in Aotearoa. I'll miss the challenge of the heat, but won't need more than a sip, if that, of water. I will return to "let us kneel to pray ... "
But as for "let's sit on our arse and pray ... ", I have a feeling it just ain't a good message. Unfortunately the architecture and furnishings of my church preclude anything else. Is it coincidence that there is, shall we say, a degree of entrenched and militant complacency endemic here?
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
The things Mama Thomas said sound fairly orthodox to me, at least not unfamiliar. We fast before Communion from the night before, even the children, or if it is an evening Liturgy, from breakfast or lunch, whichever one can manage. Great Lent is strict. The other fasts throughout the year are slightly less so. We kneel and prostrate regularly, at home and at church, but not on Sundays or during the Paschal season. So, yeah, the Orthodox fast and kneel, but mostly we just stand around and pray.
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Yes, almost all people of faith of whatever religion have outward expressions of faith and practice fasting. Orthodox Christians are great at it! Moslems, most practicing Jews I know, Pentecostals fast and pray.
It's just been my impression that most mainliners are somehow offended by these things among themselves.
I really have seen people offended by my pointing out the days of fasting or discipline and self-denial in various books of common prayer, but happily join in a Face Book fast for a greener planet or some such (not that there's anything wrong with that!)
I know a lady who has worked in Saudi Arabia and gladly fasted along with her Muslim co-workers during Ramadan, but give up something for Lent? How dare you even suggest such a horrid thing! We are supposed to take something on that give up anything!
Apparently, people of a certain age in certain mainline denominations were taught that it is the height of hypocrisy to fast and that to do so is repugnant not only to God but to all sense of human decency--and no one can fast anyway...the doctors say it is foolish and dangerous. You can't lose weight, you'll make yourself ill, it's barbaric, and ....
It's OK for Jews to fast on Yom Kippur and Muslims in Ramadan and Orthodox Christians and people who are into New Age fads but really....
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
Nothing could be more puzzling than this, Mama T. I wonder if it connects with the Protestant misunderstanding of the Sabbath and the consequent reaction allowing anything and everything on the Lord's Day? Some thoughts to ponder as I reflect on next Sunday's gospel.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Yes, there's a very strong association now with diets / slimming.
But the idea of the food you are given after a fast being extra desirable - I reckon there's mileage in that.
Yes - I've always thought that I could manage Orthodox fasting if I had their Pascha feasts to look forward to! I do fast during Lent though, I just can't cut food out totally due to the medication needs. In the past I've usually fasted on Good Friday despite being in a church where the concept of fasting was rather alien (I wasn't on medication then).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Yes, almost all people of faith of whatever religion have outward expressions of faith and practice fasting. Orthodox Christians are great at it! Moslems, most practicing Jews I know, Pentecostals fast and pray.
It's just been my impression that most mainliners are somehow offended by these things among themselves.
I really have seen people offended by my pointing out the days of fasting or discipline and self-denial in various books of common prayer, but happily join in a Face Book fast for a greener planet or some such (not that there's anything wrong with that!)
I know a lady who has worked in Saudi Arabia and gladly fasted along with her Muslim co-workers during Ramadan, but give up something for Lent? How dare you even suggest such a horrid thing! We are supposed to take something on that give up anything!
Apparently, people of a certain age in certain mainline denominations were taught that it is the height of hypocrisy to fast and that to do so is repugnant not only to God but to all sense of human decency--and no one can fast anyway...the doctors say it is foolish and dangerous. You can't lose weight, you'll make yourself ill, it's barbaric, and ....
It's OK for Jews to fast on Yom Kippur and Muslims in Ramadan and Orthodox Christians and people who are into New Age fads but really....
I suspect, rather, that "Take it on" is a slight over reaction to the idea that so long as you stopped eating cholcolate in Lent, all was well. WHich is, of course, a gross misunderstanding of what fasting is supposed to be about. It was (and is?) a fairly common (mis)understanding, however, and derives from the less than wonderful teaching about fasting that people received from their clergy, their teachers, their parents and the saintly people of t heir congregations. As I said before.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Thanks, John. Of course it is. Several elderly ladies in various congregations have told me they were taught to take something on for Lent as being preferable to their childhood instructions to give up chocolate digestives.
The only meaningful thing I've seen of this slight remnant of righteousness is one parish that used to have people fast for one or two meals a week and to put the money saved into a special basket to be given to a charity beyond the church's borders. This scheme lasted one Lent.
Most people can't be expected to "take something on" they are too busy.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I think there is something in what you say despite the reaction in this thread, and it's something that pricks my conscience from time to time. It comes with a feeling that Western Christianity has become a bit lazy. There's an Ortho shack near me and the children are taken from school to church to have two hours of instruction and teaching in the faith every single day. There is also an expectation that the adults in the congo pray every morning and every night and read extensively around theology and spiritual writings of the saints, fast every feast day and season and receive instruction regularly. But it's more than just an expectation to be honest - they actually do it. I don't know if this is normative for Ortho's in general or if this congregation is just very dedicated (they are very large in number).
About 7 or 8 years ago our congo (episcopalian) was asked to use an office throughout Lent as part of their personal devotion and to give feedback on it at the end. Over 90% in the feedback said they were too busy to participate.
I've noticed too in relation to other faiths (admitedly looking from the outside in which can always give a false impression) that they have a real love of their faith, deep dedication and real devotion. It makes us (as in episci's) look like a bunch of whingers who want everything handed to us on a plate.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
Western Christianity has become very lazy in that people who you would once have expected to be dedicated regular attenders at Church now come once in a blue moon, when they haven't got anything more exciting or interesting to do. Try running a choir on that basis and you'll see what I mean.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
Western Christianity has become very lazy in that people who you would once have expected to be dedicated regular attenders at Church now come once in a blue moon, when they haven't got anything more exciting or interesting to do. Try running a choir on that basis and you'll see what I mean.
Betty Butterfield agrees and has a theory as to why.
Posts: 3823 | Registered: May 2004
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Well, my daughter already thinks me enough of a religious nut, I am a bit reluctant to make that worse. And I have always done my best not to interfere in her spiritual journey; I trust the Lord to manage that one himself.
Ah well, if you're concerned about being teased by your daughter because of your religious habits I can understand that. My mother didn't face that issue with me.
Sadly, she is not teasing. My faith is very important to me, and helps me retain what sanity I have left. But it would not particularly help anyone else if I went around talking about it all the time. As far as other people are concerned, my faith is who I am and how I live, but the majority of it is private. I pray in private, I fast in private. I rarely talk about it because it is not easy to find the right words.
I try my whole life to be as normal as I can manage, within the constraints of my health. If I talked about my faith any attempt to pretend to be normal would be completely undone.
[ 24. August 2013, 07:15: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
. . . If so, that could be a positive reason to fast (rather than seen as a denial of something).
I am interested by this remark and have noticed similar sentiments expressed by a number of Shipmates on several occasions, particularly around Lenten observances. The "I'm not giving up anything this year. I'm going to take up this or that instead." approach.
What's behind it? Is there some reason for why we feel uncomfortable with the idea of fasting/abstaining from something?
I was advised to do this some years ago, by the Curate at my church. At the time I had a young daughter and an alcoholic husband to deal with, and life was not easy. The Curate thought that in the circumstances giving anything up would be redundant.
I made an altar cloth, veil and burse for the church, with a matching chasuble and stole for the Vicar. I bought the material, and I spent Lent making the set, which was blessed on Palm Sunday and used at Easter.
Another year I 'took on' kneeling for the Eucharistic prayer, inter alia. More recently I have painted Paschal candles. But I have more time than most people.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Most people can't be expected to "take something on" they are too busy.
We can all find time to do what we want to do.
[ 24. August 2013, 07:29: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
I try my whole life to be as normal as I can manage, within the constraints of my health. If I talked about my faith any attempt to pretend to be normal would be completely undone.
![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
indeed!
quote:
Originally posted by Anglo Catholic Relict:
quote:
Originally posted by Trisagion:
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
. . . If so, that could be a positive reason to fast (rather than seen as a denial of something).
I am interested by this remark and have noticed similar sentiments expressed by a number of Shipmates on several occasions, particularly around Lenten observances. The "I'm not giving up anything this year. I'm going to take up this or that instead." approach.
What's behind it? Is there some reason for why we feel uncomfortable with the idea of fasting/abstaining from something?
I was advised to do this some years ago, by the Curate at my church. At the time I had a young daughter and an alcoholic husband to deal with, and life was not easy. The Curate thought that in the circumstances giving anything up would be redundant.
I made an altar cloth, veil and burse for the church, with a matching chasuble and stole for the Vicar. I bought the material, and I spent Lent making the set, which was blessed on Palm Sunday and used at Easter.
Another year I 'took on' kneeling for the Eucharistic prayer, inter alia. More recently I have painted Paschal candles. But I have more time than most people.
What a wise Curate you had, and what imaginative things to do. Rather than give something up I try and take something on too (though I suppose one could say that by doing that one is 'giving up' time).
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Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pine Marten:
What a wise Curate you had, and what imaginative things to do. Rather than give something up I try and take something on too (though I suppose one could say that by doing that one is 'giving up' time).
Yes, he is a sweetie. Now a Rector, rather than a Curate, but still a very dear friend.
And of course we can always go both.
I have another friend who was very keen that Christians ought never to talk about what we do irt fasting, in line with Biblical injunctions; we can either fast for God or for those around us, and it is best to do it for God. She used to say, everyone knows when Moslems are fasting; the whole world knows what they are doing and when they are doing it. The Christian way is different; nobody should know.
Dear old B.
[ 24. August 2013, 10:18: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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CuppaT
Shipmate
# 10523
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Posted
On the other hand, there is a time for feasting and a time for fasting. Jesus even said, When the Bridegroom is taken away, then they will fast. And so, we do, till he comes again. Then we will really feast!
But as far as other people knowing, there is something to be said for there being general rules for a fast, so that no one is going off willy-nilly making up their own way, one giving up a slight thing and another giving up too much, both foolish. With general rules, everyone knows what is allowed, and so that is what is served at church functions, and then if people need exceptions due to health considerations, they clear that with their pastor, or perhaps they check their own conscience, but at any rate, honesty prevails.
You know, it isn't that long since the whole church was fasting together and such things were assumed. Read some of the old literature set several centuries back and you will find references to it as a matter of course.
What did Jesus do when he wanted to pray intensely?
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Stand at the brink of the abyss of despair, and when you see that you cannot bear it any longer, draw back a little and have a cup of tea.
~Elder Sophrony
Posts: 919 | From: the edge of the Ozarks | Registered: Oct 2005
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
I understood that traditionally in Lent, we were not only supposed to give something up (fasting) but to take something on (almsgiving and prayer).
The taking on something is self discipline as much as giving up.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
Posts: 3201 | From: An historic market town nestling in the folds of Surrey's rolling North Downs, | Registered: Sep 2011
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Ad Orientem
Shipmate
# 17574
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I understood that traditionally in Lent, we were not only supposed to give something up (fasting) but to take something on (almsgiving and prayer).
The taking on something is self discipline as much as giving up.
Yes. St. Chrysostom calls anything else a devil's fast.
Posts: 2606 | From: Finland | Registered: Feb 2013
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Trickydicky
Shipmate
# 16550
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Posted
I'm a (traditional free church) church leader. I fast. I think it is good to fast (as well as feast). I want to encourage my church to fast. I have to tell them I fast, otherwise they will accuse me of hypocrisy. But then I don't want to tell them I'm fasting because it seems too 'holy'! Oh well. ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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If something's worth doing, its worth doing badly. (G K Chesterton)
Posts: 57 | From: Greater Manchester | Registered: Jul 2011
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
At our church newer members seem unable to stay in the worship space for the course of our service. (I know any Orthodox readers might be chuckling over this because our worship isn't as physically active as yours; but bear with me here.) It's incredible. Our services generally last about an hour and a quarter at most on the average full-church Sunday morning. And I know at least some of these folks think nothing of spending hours at home quietly in chairs/on sofas surfing the Internet, snoozing, watching television or working on sedentary hobbies. But remaining in our sanctuary for a little more than an hour seems to be asking too much. And I'm not talking about legitimate needs to use the bathroom or deal with fussy infants; I'm talking about reasonably healthy, baby-unencumbered adults having a sudden impulse to wander into the fellowship area -- maybe even grab a cup of coffee in the kitchen (pre-Eucharistic fasting is not a norm in Lutheran circles) -- maybe even go out for a smoke break.
I also might catch hell from some parents for mentioning this, but I also wonder when children -- again, not teething infants/fussy toddlers but fairly independent, teachable, self-regulating small children -- became unable to cope with corporate worship if it didn't involve snacks. I feel so sorry for our church janitor, who on top of the messes made in the fellowship area every week also has to clean up smashed Froot Loops and dripped Gogurt and whatever else the parents feed their kids in the pews. I'm just waiting for this trend to move age-upward, until church is like a movie theater and we sit around with our jumbo sodas, munching our popcorn and Good & Plenties.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
I've always wished I could wander out for a breath of fresh air from time to time. I'm glad to learn that it's now become socially acceptable, LutheranChik, even if not to you ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
In other words, people do it because they can. In the past social mores prevented them from doing so even if they wanted to.
Similarly once of a day children made it through without snacks etc. because they feared what would happen to them if they didn't sit their in silence. Personally I'm rather pleased that is no longer the case, even if it does make like a bit difficult at times. Parents are trying, desperately, and I fear with little success, to make church a place their children actually want to be and not loathe.
[ 28. August 2013, 21:38: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
In a church with a liturgical whole, as it were -- where one part flows into another in a crafted way that makes theological and aesthetic sense -- I'm not sure, other than maybe during announcements or the offering or the sort of long and chaotic "passing of the peace" that's normative in a lot of churches these days, where wandering out of worship really works. Okay; maybe during hymns one doesn't like. But in addition to the sense that people don't think an hour of focused corporate worship is possible or desirable, there's also the issue of disrupting others who WANT that time -- insisting on crawling over their legs or otherwise inconveniencing then while one is making one's escape; speaking in "outside voices" in ways that drift back into the sanctuary and otherwise creating distraction. And for some people this is more than a matter of their own preference. My better half has PTSD after a violent attack while in the military, and often has problems with group events where the action goes "off script"; it's a trigger; she has a hypersensitivity to things like odd noises and movements in her peripheral vision or behind her that make it hard for her to worship in a non-anxious way when there's random wandering and sounds going on during in-unison parts of worship.
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Simul iustus et peccator
http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Perhaps you need a dialogue with the wanderers in and out. Find out why they feel the need to do it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Perhaps you need a dialogue with the wanderers in and out. Find out why they feel the need to do it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
LutheranChik posts: quote:
I'm just waiting for this trend to move age-upward, until church is like a movie theater and we sit around with our jumbo sodas, munching our popcorn and Good & Plenties.
It's already here: I have sat in a chair at an Episcopal church in Florida where I was parked between two women, one with a jumbo iced-cappucino with extra whip, and another with a Danish pastry and a large coffee from the snacks table at the back. The licking of Danish from the fingers did make me less enthusiastic over the passing of the Peace which came along.
In my Irish years, the men leaving and re-entering the church was fairly common. Slipping out the door does not seem to have come to Canada, although one finds it a bit at Greek Orthodox churches, where the men are compelled by Holy Ethnic Tradition to sneak out for a smoke break. In rural Ontario churches at funerals, men will sneak out for a quick sip from a mickey (a 200ml-375ml bottle of rum or rye)-- I have seen this at both Presbyterian and UCC churches -- even in the depths of winter.
However, her point on diminishing attention span and priorities is worth some reflection and Canadians are not far off culturally on this from their neighbours south of the border. I like the (rapidly disappearing) Anglican tradition of a short (35-40 minute) service at 8.00 am or 8.30 am for those who don't like/are challenged by long services, followed by a longer one for those who revel in the whole kit and kaboodle. People are different, with different needs, and shouldn't all be stuffed into the same attention-span box, if it can be arranged.
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Perhaps you need a dialogue with the wanderers in and out. Find out why they feel the need to do it.
For the next edition of Common Worship:
President:. Why are you leaving?
Response: For a quick snifter.
P. That is right and good.
R. We shall return.
then the congregation shall depart, severally, for a space. On their return:
P. Are you now refreshed?
R. A damn sight better than by your sermons.
P. Thanks be to God.
R. Alleluia.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Perhaps you need a dialogue with the wanderers in and out. Find out why they feel the need to do it.
For the next edition of Common Worship:
President:. Why are you leaving?
Response: For a quick snifter.
P. That is right and good.
R. We shall return.
then the congregation shall depart, severally, for a space. On their return:
P. Are you now refreshed?
R. A damn sight better than by your sermons.
P. Thanks be to God.
R. Alleluia.
There's always one, isn't there?
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
I've not noticed people (without children) wandering in and out. But I have noticed people checking their smart phone at regular intervals during the service. Which is presumably a sign of a wandering mind if not a body.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
Last Sunday I did a Rite I Eucharist (the one that makes nods to Elizabethan-style English). One man said he hated it because the service was "much too long." Checking my phone, I saw we were actually out a few minutes earlier than usual.
Yes, people have become so used to being utterly within their comfort zone that the slightest unfamiliarity will upset them.
There are changes in things like the to me miraculous ability to pause a live television broadcast and resume at will. No longer are we bound by even the TV--we zip through commercials and boring bits of movies and shows, "drive-thru windows" for fast food so we don't even have to get out of our cars. It's been said before but we really have become a society that doesn't delay gratification. Sad it has also penetrated into our religious life.
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Kitten
Shipmate
# 1179
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
I've not noticed people (without children) wandering in and out. But I have noticed people checking their smart phone at regular intervals during the service. Which is presumably a sign of a wandering mind if not a body.
If I saw someone doing this I wouldn't automatically assume their mind was wandering, They could have a reasonable excuse for doing so, being on call for example, or checking that their phone was on silent, or even using a Bible app to follow the readings or look up a reference from the sermon
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Maius intra qua extra
Never accept a ride from a stranger, unless they are in a big blue box
Posts: 2330 | From: Carmarthenshire | Registered: Aug 2001
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Mama Thomas
Shipmate
# 10170
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Posted
But sometimes they're texting their friends or playing Dots or Angry Birds or reading the news. At least they're in church...
Honestly, I've heard more phones go off in church than at the flix (though to be fair I spend more time at services than at the movies).
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All hearts are open, all desires known
Posts: 3742 | From: Somewhere far away | Registered: Aug 2005
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mama Thomas:
Last Sunday I did a Rite I Eucharist (the one that makes nods to Elizabethan-style English). One man said he hated it because the service was "much too long." Checking my phone, I saw we were actually out a few minutes earlier than usual.
Yes, people have become so used to being utterly within their comfort zone that the slightest unfamiliarity will upset them.
There are changes in things like the to me miraculous ability to pause a live television broadcast and resume at will. No longer are we bound by even the TV--we zip through commercials and boring bits of movies and shows, "drive-thru windows" for fast food so we don't even have to get out of our cars. It's been said before but we really have become a society that doesn't delay gratification. Sad it has also penetrated into our religious life.
Sad or not, it has. What are we going to do about it? Work with it? Talk about it with our congregations?
But what's it got to do with gratification, delayed or otherwise? What's the delayed gratification of sitting through church scratching our arses for something to do? What are we doing wrong in church that makes inane conversations on Bookface or Angry Birds or whatever rather more engaging?
[ 29. August 2013, 21:44: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
I must admit inefficiency in a worship service irritates me. The last Rite I TEC liturgy I attended took 49 minutes, with four full hymns, sung ordinary, sermon, and walking continuous communion distribution. That was with the entire prayer of intercession (with local additions!) and the long version Eucharistic Prayer (I).
That same church takes about 45 minutes for Rite II.
Efficiency, people!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kitten:
If I saw someone doing this I wouldn't automatically assume their mind was wandering, They could have a reasonable excuse for doing so, being on call for example, or checking that their phone was on silent, or even using a Bible app to follow the readings or look up a reference from the sermon
You haven't been to my church, have you?
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zappa:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
I've always wished I could wander out for a breath of fresh air from time to time.
Not hard in some churches
One certainly hopes that this church makes regular use of flabella, for properly keeping the insects at bay!
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Augustine the Aleut:
LutheranChik posts: quote:
I'm just waiting for this trend to move age-upward, until church is like a movie theater and we sit around with our jumbo sodas, munching our popcorn and Good & Plenties.
It's already here: I have sat in a chair at an Episcopal church in Florida where I was parked between two women, one with a jumbo iced-cappucino with extra whip, and another with a Danish pastry and a large coffee from the snacks table at the back. The licking of Danish from the fingers did make me less enthusiastic over the passing of the Peace which came along.
In my Irish years, the men leaving and re-entering the church was fairly common. Slipping out the door does not seem to have come to Canada, although one finds it a bit at Greek Orthodox churches, where the men are compelled by Holy Ethnic Tradition to sneak out for a smoke break. In rural Ontario churches at funerals, men will sneak out for a quick sip from a mickey (a 200ml-375ml bottle of rum or rye).
I've heard that in previous centuries CofE services could be quite noisy. People would snore, break wind, laugh, play with puppies, etc. The clergy would sometimes complain about disrespectful behaviour.
Re walking in and out, I've heard that in some of the black-led Pentecostal churches this is fairly acceptable, and isn't seen as a sign of disrespect. One reason for it must be that services are quite long.
[ 01. September 2013, 23:22: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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