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Source: (consider it) Thread: Idiosyncratic Hymn Tunes
venbede
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
The old English Hymnal set Love Divine to Fairest Isle - damned fine tune, weird to be used for a hymn, and possibly the most congregation unfriendly ever.

Charles Wesley wrote the words to that tune.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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L'organist
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Indeed, Venbede - but then its not only music for hymns that give you the feeling that preparedness to sing, never mind ability, must have been far greater in Wesley's day than in ours.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
Indeed, Venbede - but then its not only music for hymns that give you the feeling that preparedness to sing, never mind ability, must have been far greater in Wesley's day than in ours.

Possibly, but Purcell was much more recent in Wesley's time than ours.

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
[QUOTE]No, it can't be. The tune 'Cranbrook' was written by Thomas Clark of Canterbury (1775 - 1859) for Doddridge's Grace, 'tis a charming sound. An informative article about Clark may be found here.

While humble shepherds is first found in the 'Supplement to the New Version' published in 1708. The 'New Version' is the PSALMS OF DAVID; Fitted to the TUNES USED IN CHURCHES
by N. BRADY, D.D and N. TATE, Esq., 1696
. I have no idea what tune was given for it there, but it not impossible that it could have been Winchester, which certainly would have been one of the 'tunes used in churches'.

It wouldn't have had an 'original tune'. There were a few psalms that had their own associated tunes, but the idea that there was a right tune for each hymn didn't really develop until the mid nineteenth century. Tate and Brady wrote the words. It was up to each community to decide what tune it wanted to sing them to.

'While Shepherds Watched' is Common Metre. So are 'Grace 'tis a charming sound' and Amazing Grace. Winchester Old was a widely known Common Metre tune which the compilers of the first edition of Hymns Ancient & Modern printed with 'While Shepherds watched' because they disapproved of the more florid tunes like Lyngham and Cranbrook which what they scorned as yokel bands were wont to provide.

'When I survey the wondrous cross' is Long Metre. The tune I would traditionally associate with it is Rockingham, which is also, for me, the tune that goes with 'My God and is thy table spread'.

I've never heard the tune Jengie links to, but to me, it is uninspiring and unmemorable. We sometimes sing 'When I survey' to Waly Waly, which IMHO works very well.

Amazing Grace with the chorus about the chains, is using the usual tune for the verses, but wandering a bit off key and off rhythm. It's only the chorus that is a different tune.


Venbede, did your visit happen to coincide with a parish pilgrimage from one of the big Anglo-Catholic churches in Yorkshire?

The general idea of 'right tunes' for hymns is a relatively recent development, I agree, but there are instances as far back as Handel of tunes being composed to fit particular words (e.g. Gopsal). To judge from the number of tunes 'called 'Old nth' there must have been a fair degree of matching of tune with psalm at least in the case of metrical psalms, and not always because of metrical exigiency. English metrical psalters tended towards minimalism in the variety of metres used to the point that Rous used only CM, and non CM versions were supplied only as alternatives in the 1650 Scottish Psalter. By way of contrast the Genevan Psalter used over a hundred different metrical patterns making the concept of 'the right tune' inevitable. Over and above that, collections of psalm tunes such as Tansur's Harmony of Sion indicated pairings of words and tunes, though of course local custom or preference could take precedence.

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Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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Enoch
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It's further back than Handel. The Old Hundredth has been linked, as it still is, to Sternhold and Hopkins's version of the Jubilate since at least the seventeenth century, and I suspect the sixteenth. Their version of Psalm 50 is in a peculiar metre, with a tune that would fit nothing else. Be that as it may, though, a large proportion of their psalms are in standard metres with interchangeable tunes.

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Gill H

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Calon Lan was mentioned upthread. Welsh singer Mal Pope used it for 'What a friend we have in Jesus' on one of his albums and I rather like it.

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- Lyda Rose

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Chorister

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This weekend, I heard for the first time a hymn specially written for a Ruby Wedding anniversary. The words were lovely - most suitable for the occasion and also for any wedding ceremony. The tune was 'Drink to me only with thine eyes' which I thought was most appropriate for a wedding theme - one where the association would be well known.

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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Metapelagius
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
It's further back than Handel. The Old Hundredth has been linked, as it still is, to Sternhold and Hopkins's version of the Jubilate since at least the seventeenth century, and I suspect the sixteenth. Their version of Psalm 50 is in a peculiar metre, with a tune that would fit nothing else. Be that as it may, though, a large proportion of their psalms are in standard metres with interchangeable tunes.

In general, yes. The Scottish Psalter has CM versions of all the psalms, and alternatives of some in other metres. Where there is such an alternative it is in my experience the one with which congregations will be familiar - e.g. Pss. 25, 67 (SM); 100 (LM); 124 (10's); 136, 148 (HM).

Similarly Hopkins's own version of Psalm 100 is CM, but the Old Version also includes as an alternative William Kethe's version (though the ascription has been questioned), LM, and now always associated with the 'Old 100th'. But the tune isn't what it might seem - it is in fact the Genevan tune to Psalm 134. With regard to Psalm 50 the OV again has a version by Hopkins himself which is SM, in addition to the Whittingham version which is in the same metre as the French version in the Genevan psalter, so that it fits the Genevan tune. (Whittingham had been exiled in Geneva during the reign of Mary, and was married to Calvin's sister.) The Old 50th is a good tune, but not easy to sing - the one time I came across it the congregation was making very heavy weather of it.

--------------------
Rec a archaw e nim naccer.
y rof a duv. dagnouet.
Am bo forth. y porth riet.
Crist ny buv e trist yth orsset.

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
... The Old 50th is a good tune, but not easy to sing - the one time I came across it the congregation was making very heavy weather of it.

I envy you. I've wondered how it's supposed to be sung. I can't work out how to fit the words and the tune together for the last two lines of each verse.

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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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pererin
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Metapelagius:
... The Old 50th is a good tune, but not easy to sing - the one time I came across it the congregation was making very heavy weather of it.

I envy you. I've wondered how it's supposed to be sung. I can't work out how to fit the words and the tune together for the last two lines of each verse.
If you've got Hymns Ancient and Modern (the really really old one, with the blue cover), it's number 660 in there. Otherwise, here goes with a very unclear explanation (taking it as being in 4/2):
- in line 4, the eighth syllable is slurred over three minims fa-la-so (this may be where you're getting lost)
- line 5 should be straightforward -- maybe the Alto part moving on the fourth syllable is catching your ear?
- line 6 is mainly a matter of counting: the first five syllables are all semibreves, much though one will want to press on through the text faster! Then then eighth syllable is slurred over two crotchets so-fa.

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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venbede
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I must admit "Almighty Father Unoriginate" is a new one on me, but it might catch on again.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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pererin
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I must admit "Almighty Father Unoriginate" is a new one on me, but it might catch on again.

LOL! [Big Grin] I don't think there can be any quibble with the revisers' leaving that one out. The tune really should have been moved to "And now, O Father, mindful of the love", but that one already had two tunes. There are really too many good tunes for how many good lyrics there are in 10.10T, and that's even with A&M lacking FFIGYSBREN and BRO ABER (and FINLANDIA, although that is more 4.6's than 10's).

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"They go to and fro in the evening, they grin like a dog, and run about through the city." (Psalm 59.6)

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Enoch
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Yebbut, that version has been tinkered with. The original is 10,10,10,10, 11,11. It has extra notes at the end of the fifth line and fairly near the beginning of the sixth.

Also, in an older version I've got that goes with the original words, line 4 is slightly different and more straightforward. It looks as though there was originally an extra note in the earlier part of the line, and the slurred bit you mention has been compounded out of gracing notes that previously went with individual syllables.

--------------------
Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson

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Mudfrog
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The salvation Army has a lovely holiness hymn that goes to the tune of 'Drink to me Only with Thine Eyes':

THERE is a holy hill of God,
Its heights by faith I see;
Now to ascend my soul aspires,
To leave earth’s vanity.

<snip - full text>

William Drake Pennick (1884-1944)

[Edited for possible copyright violation]

[ 21. September 2013, 05:37: Message edited by: seasick ]

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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seasick

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Mudfrog,

You should be well aware by now of the Ship's copyright policy. We do not allow any more than two verses at most of any hymn or song to be quoted in case of copyright violation. It is always preferable to link to content quoted elsewhere.

seasick, Eccles host

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We believe there is, and always was, in every Christian Church, ... an outward priesthood, ordained by Jesus Christ, and an outward sacrifice offered therein. - John Wesley

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by seasick:
Mudfrog,

You should be well aware by now of the Ship's copyright policy. We do not allow any more than two verses at most of any hymn or song to be quoted in case of copyright violation. It is always preferable to link to content quoted elsewhere.

seasick, Eccles host

Oooops, sorry

--------------------
"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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L'organist
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I've allowed 24 hours to pass to see if the idea of singing any words to the tune of Drink to me only in church would add to the gaiety of life. Answer - NO.

Tried the idea on the more musical members of my choir - their reactions split more or less 50:50 between [Killing me] and [Projectile]

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Mudfrog
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quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
I've allowed 24 hours to pass to see if the idea of singing any words to the tune of Drink to me only in church would add to the gaiety of life. Answer - NO.

Tried the idea on the more musical members of my choir - their reactions split more or less 50:50 between [Killing me] and [Projectile]

You don't like the Salvation Army song then?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Zappa
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quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Yebbut, that version has been tinkered with. The original is 10,10,10,10, 11,11. It has extra notes at the end of the fifth line and fairly near the beginning of the .

You mean Mariah Carey has been singing again?

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Aggie
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I once attended a church where "Hail the day that sees him rise" was sung to a a very pretty tune called Chislehurst, rather than the usual Llanfair.

When it is sung to Chislehurst, the Alleluias at the end of each line are omitted, and instead they are sung four times at the end of each verse.

I am not aware of any other churches that use this tune for this hymn, although it is listed in the New English Hymnal. I have looked on youtube to see if I could find it, but alas it seems that most directors of music prefer to sing "Hail the day that sees him rise" to Llanfair.

[ 23. September 2013, 09:50: Message edited by: Aggie ]

--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)

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venbede
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I sung "Hail the day that sees him rise" to Chiselhurst once on Ascension Day at St Alban's Holborn. We had a music copy of NEH (top line only).

It is a nice change, isn't it?

I rather like singing hymns to new tunes or at least tunes I don't usually hear.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Offeiriad

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I love 'Chislehurst' (both the tune, and as the place I went to school!). Presumably it was written when the SECM (as was then) was based there prior to the move to Addington Palace?
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Aggie
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
I sung "Hail the day that sees him rise" to Chiselhurst once on Ascension Day at St Alban's Holborn. We had a music copy of NEH (top line only).


Was this during Michael Fleming's time as Director of Music? I understand he was quite fond of this tune, as I think he knew its composer, Sydney Nicholson.

--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)

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venbede
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There's a stained glass window to Michael Fleming in St Michael's Croydon with the notes of "To God all praise and glory" at the bottom of the window (Gregory the Great - chant don't yer know? - with Canterbury Cathedral at the top).

Actually, there is an "alleluia" at the end of lines one and two of Chishelhurst and then three at the end of line four.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Albertus
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quote:
Originally posted by Oferyas:
I love 'Chislehurst' (both the tune, and as the place I went to school!). Presumably it was written when the SECM (as was then) was based there prior to the move to Addington Palace?

On a tangent, are you a Chis & Sid old boy, then? Good school.

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Aggie
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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
There's a stained glass window to Michael Fleming in St Michael's Croydon with the notes of "To God all praise and glory" at the bottom of the window (Gregory the Great - chant don't yer know? - with Canterbury Cathedral at the top).

Actually, there is an "alleluia" at the end of lines one and two of Chishelhurst and then three at the end of line four.

"To God all praise and glory" is the refrain in the hymn "Sing Praise to God Who reigns above", Michael Fleming wrote the tune "Palace Green" for this hymn.

And yes, you are quite right about the "alleluias" in the Chislehurst tune. I haven't heard it for so long, I'd forgotten exactly how it goes.

--------------------
“I see his blood upon the rose
And in the stars the glory of his eyes,
His body gleams amid eternal snows,
His tears fall from the skies.”
(Joseph Mary Plunkett 1887-1917)

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venbede
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And St Michael's duly sang All praise to God on Easter Day. (Michael Fleming was director of music there.)

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Wild Organist
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Anyone tried "While Shepherds Watched" to House of the Rising Sun? (Oh, how I'd love to see the faces of the congregation as it dawned on them... [Devil] ) [Snigger]

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Amos

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IMO 'The House of the Rising Sun,' goes better with 'Amazing Grace.'

You've prompted me, though, to try singing 'While Shepherds Watched' to the Mickey Mouse Theme.

If any of the UK Shipmates saw a bit of the BBC4 programme last night on the great English murder, they will have heard 'Kingsfold' as the tune of one of the ballads about Maria Marten and the Red Barn Murder.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Baptist Trainfan
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There was once a version of the "Gloria" to "Eastenders". I've never managed to track it down, but it seems to work ell!
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venbede
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Kingsfold was a folk tune before RVW took it over as a hymn tune (and a fine one it is).

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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venbede
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Come to think of it, in Vaughan William's ballad opera Hugh the Drover, there is one point where a character sings the opening lines of Maria Marten and they do so to the tune RVW named Kingsfold in English Hymnal.

--------------------
Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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Enoch
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The House of the Rising Sun is Common Metre. So it ought to fit. Both 'While Shepherds watched' and 'Amazing Grace' are Common Metre. Kingsfold is Double Common Metre.

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Amos

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quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Kingsfold was a folk tune before RVW took it over as a hymn tune (and a fine one it is).

Absolutely! I (being unacquainted with 'Hugh the Drover') wasn't previously aware, though, that it was the tune to the murder ballad.

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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken

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Gwalchmai
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Does anybody else remember a group called the Mastersingers in the 1960s (when I was lad) who recorded part of the Highway Code and the weather forecast to Anglican psalm chants? The Weather Forecast was played on Radio 3 Breakfast a couple of weeks or so ago.
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L'organist
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# 17338

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Gwalchmai

They weren't the Mastersingers, they were The King's Singers . The Highway Code and Shipping/Weather Forecast were on an EP (!) and I still have a copy.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Pearl B4 Swine
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# 11451

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Yes. I do. Way back then, one of my basses brought the tape to rehearsal, and we all were on the floor laughing. We listened about a dozen times. The weather forecast

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Oinkster

"I do a good job and I know how to do this stuff" D. Trump (speaking of the POTUS job)

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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
Anyone tried "While Shepherds Watched" to House of the Rising Sun? (Oh, how I'd love to see the faces of the congregation as it dawned on them... [Devil] ) [Snigger]

Actually "There is a green hill" was played to that tune by a Christian rock band at some festival back in th early seventies when that kind of thing was fresh and exciting. That was part of the path, I think, which led my sister to faith and so indirectly me too. The Lord moves in mysterious ways.

I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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p-thread someone wondered about the Gloria and Eastenders : it was done by Barry Rose..

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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venbede
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# 16669

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Hang on. They are called Mastersingers on Youtube.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qngi_jSaXlI

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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.

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AndyB
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# 10186

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quote:
Originally posted by Amos:
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
Kingsfold was a folk tune before RVW took it over as a hymn tune (and a fine one it is).

Absolutely! I (being unacquainted with 'Hugh the Drover') wasn't previously aware, though, that it was the tune to the murder ballad.
It is also a variant on the Star of the County Down.

The Weather Forecast and the Highway Code were indeed by the Master Singers.

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L'organist
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# 17338

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Venbede

They may be called The Mastersingers on YouTube but I suspect that is because the person who uploaded it either doesn't have the original EP or can't read ... the sound is definitely The Kings Singers.

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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet

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Gill H

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# 68

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I have the EP also and it does say the Mastersingers on it. The mystery deepens.

It really does sound like the King's Singers, but were they around at that time?

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Chorister

Completely Frocked
# 473

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The answer to this question can be found here (if you scroll down a bit or do a search for 'Weather forecast')

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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.

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AndyB
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# 10186

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As those who have the EP can confirm, it was definitely the Mastersingers, none of whom were ever in the King's Singers. That they sound similar is no coincidence - one rather expects that with a male voice chamber ensemble, but the other clue is that there are precisely four voices in the Mastersingers, but there have always been six in the King's Singers.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433

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Ahem
Which probably settles the tangent.
/Ahem

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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Jonah the Whale:
quote:
Originally posted by Wild Organist:
Anyone tried "While Shepherds Watched" to House of the Rising Sun? (Oh, how I'd love to see the faces of the congregation as it dawned on them... [Devil] ) [Snigger]

Actually "There is a green hill" was played to that tune by a Christian rock band at some festival back in th early seventies when that kind of thing was fresh and exciting. That was part of the path, I think, which led my sister to faith and so indirectly me too. The Lord moves in mysterious ways.

I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

The Salvation Army had a pop group in the mid '60s. It was called the Joystrings. Seeing that they were contemporary to The Animals, what do you think of THIS ?

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128

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quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

Two points.

1. There have been two MOTD tunes - which one?

2. My wife is Scottish. Many years ago she was helping at a Children's Mission where the (English) leader introduced a song to the MOTD tune. It went down like a lead balloon as they don't have MOTD in Scotland but a different programme.

[ 26. September 2013, 08:27: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]

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Mudfrog
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# 8116

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quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I seem to remember hearing "I know that my redeemer lives" to the tune of BBC's Match of the Day at an all-age worship service. My brain has mercifully deleted exactly how it went.

Two points.

1. There have been two MOTD tunes - which one?

2. My wife is Scottish. Many years ago she was helping at a Children's Mission where the (English) leader introduced a song to the MOTD tune. It went down like a lead balloon as they don't have MOTD in Scotland but a different programme.

This was originally posted by Jonah and the Whale, not me.

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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton

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Jonah the Whale

Ship's pet cetacean
# 1244

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Yes, it was me, though frogs and whales are both aquatic creatures so I can understand the confusion.

According to Wikipedia the current theme tune to MotD was written in 1970. Although I was born before 1970 it was broadcast after my bedtime so I can't remember the earlier one.

JtW

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