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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Eucharistic prayers authorised by canons (C of E)
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Charles Read
Shipmate
# 3963
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Posted
It should have said...
And I do like prayers from other provinces / churches and wish we could just get on and authorise them. I have used Star Trek (in training contexts of course...) - but find it hard to resist lapsing into a ]B]mid [/B]-Atlantic accent.
Though a mis-Atlantic accent might be true too...
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pererin
Shipmate
# 16956
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
With regards to A - it would certainly have been disastrous to omit it, being the standard default for so many parishes! I know of a number of parishes where "implementing Common Worship" basically meant doing as little as possible to change from what they knew and were comfortable with. Hence Prayer A remains the default setting for many.
Which is why I think it was a mistake to put it first. Much better would have been F-B-C-A-E-G-D-H. Then they'd have had to think about it.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
A is meant to derive ultimately from the Roman Canon and F is based on Basil, but I think that is debateable when you compare them with those texts. This does not mean they are Bad Prayers.
I would never have recognized either.
I suppose the slightly weird "Accept our praises..." is vaguely like the Te Igitur (at least inasmuch as both ignore the Sanctus) fused with the Quam Oblationem, with the intervening Memento Domine, Communicantes, and (most disappointingly of all) Hanc Igitur all absent! Then the Qui Pridie, Simili Modo, and Unde et Memores are obvious now, but somehow Melchizedek has been lost from the Supra Quae (so we can have weird allusions to works of the saints, but not an obvious one to the book of Genesis...). Then the Supplices Te Rogamus, Memento Etiam, Ipsis Domine, Nobis quoque Peccatoribus, and Per Quem have all wandered off, thereby removing all trace of the intercession that the Roman Canon is so notable for. I suppose it looks like it's sourced from the Roman Canon once one's been told that's where it's from (and that would also explain why I don't feel Prayer A to be particularly coherent: it's a rather severe edit of something that wasn't very coherent to start with).
And any Eastern liturgy inevitably needs a lot of editing, just because of the ways they pile up synonym upon synonym and talk endlessly about the action instead of just doing it — unedited forms would inevitably try Western people's patience.
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
And i do like prayers from other provinces / churches and wish we could just get on and authorise them. I have used Star Trek (in training contexts of course...) - but find it hard to resiost lapsing into a mis-Atlantic accent. 'fragile earth' is where I can resist it least...
Yes, please, can we all have Star Trek!
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
There must be other Eucharistic prayers knocking around - we were asked to trial two fairly recently and I can't believe we were the only parish being asked to do that. What I've not heard is what happened after the trial - how long does it take for feedback to take place and for a decision, to use them or not, to happen?
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I can still remember the little book we used at Church when I was a child - an explanation of the 1662 Service of course.
It had little pictures in it and I remember that, just before the Eucharistic Prayer, it said something about "now we are coming to the MOST IMPORTANT PART of the service". Does anyone else remember it?
Re. other prayers: as the Minister of a combined Baptist/URC Church I have access to all kinds of Eucharistic Prayers published by both denominations (some of them cribbed from elsewhere, such as "Wild Goose"). None of these are of course authorised for use in the CofE.
And, besides that, I can make up or adapt my own prayers to suit the occasion (shouts of horror from the Anglicans and Catholics!). I am actually the exception to the rule: most Baptists (but not Methodists or URC) would use nothing written except the "words of institution" and do everything extempore.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
I can make up or adapt my own prayers to suit the occasion (shouts of horror from the Anglicans and Catholics!).
No horror from me - It's a return to primitive practice - in the 2nd and 3rd centuries, the celebrant at the liturgy had considerable freedom to compose his own prayers but soon, however, standardization set in as the various communities began to adopt the prayers of their more eloquent celebrants such as Hippolytus (c. 215).
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Charles Read:
And i do like prayers from other provinces / churches and wish we could just get on and authorise them.
Yes!
It seems peculiar to me that, officially at least, we cannot used EPs from other Anglican provinces. What damage would it do to simply make ALL Anglican provinces' liturgy authorised for use in the C of E?
(But then, I've hung around the C of E long enough to know that no new idea (whether it be Eucharistic Prayers or women bishops) is valid until the C of E thinks it has invented it for itself.)
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Adeodatus
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# 4992
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Posted
I've a fundamental problem with much of this discussion - maybe it's a subject for another thread, I don't know. What it is, is the assumption that it's good to have endless variation and change. This is something I experience in some churches I've been to: the eucharistic prayer is never the same two weeks running.
Isn't stability a virtue? If we're forever swapping the prayers, how will the people ever get those prayers into their hearts? And who gave the clergy ownership of the people's worship, to change at their whim?
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venbede
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# 16669
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Posted
I think Adeodatus has a good point.
The variation I appreciate is in the preface - my usual church has Prayer B every week with the extended prefaces in the seasons, which is fine by me.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Yes!
It seems peculiar to me that, officially at least, we cannot used EPs from other Anglican provinces. What damage would it do to simply make ALL Anglican provinces' liturgy authorised for use in the C of E? ....
I disagree. We have more than enough options already - I suspect more than in most other provinces. Living somewhere where the next diocese in one direction is in a different province, it seems entirely reasonable to me that each province should have its own forms of worship. That is a good thing about having provinces. But I don't think individual clergy should be entitled to say, 'I just happen to be particularly fond of the EP in Ireland or the Church of the Province of Central Africa, or wherever. So henceforth, that's what you're all going to get'.
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Thurible
Shipmate
# 3206
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The variation I appreciate is in the preface - my usual church has Prayer B every week with the extended prefaces in the seasons, which is fine by me.
We have C, and only C. (Other than when we use the Roman Canon - but that's been once in four years.)
Thurible
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Oscar the Grouch
Adopted Cascadian
# 1916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
Isn't stability a virtue? If we're forever swapping the prayers, how will the people ever get those prayers into their hearts? And who gave the clergy ownership of the people's worship, to change at their whim?
I would agree with that, to an extent. I've certainly known churches where the liturgy changes every week and the congregation grumble that they never know what is coming next and find that they are always stumbling over unfamiliar prayers.
But a certain degree of variation can be healthy, IMHO.
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Oscar the Grouch:
Yes!
It seems peculiar to me that, officially at least, we cannot used EPs from other Anglican provinces. What damage would it do to simply make ALL Anglican provinces' liturgy authorised for use in the C of E? ....
I disagree. We have more than enough options already - I suspect more than in most other provinces. Living somewhere where the next diocese in one direction is in a different province, it seems entirely reasonable to me that each province should have its own forms of worship. That is a good thing about having provinces. But I don't think individual clergy should be entitled to say, 'I just happen to be particularly fond of the EP in Ireland or the Church of the Province of Central Africa, or wherever. So henceforth, that's what you're all going to get'.
Again, I sort of agree. Personally, I wouldn't want complete free-for-all. But I would appreciate the ability to use (occasionally) liturgies from other provinces. Quite apart from anything else, it would be a healthy reminder to the church that the C of E really is part of a family of churches across the world.
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Faradiu, dundeibáwa weyu lárigi weyu
Posts: 3871 | From: Gamma Quadrant, just to the left of Galifrey | Registered: Dec 2001
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
My last church varied the EP for the seasons, which strikes me as a good way.
We also had Prayer H for the children’s mass for a while, but it was felt not to be a good idea. The congregation needs a head in the pamphlet and on the ball to follow exactly what’s going on.
I’d have had no difficultly doing that even when I was seven, but then I’m a liturgical geek. Most people aren’t and it may well be confusing for them to have a complicated text to follow and make them afraid of doing something wrong.
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Man was made for joy and woe;
And when this we rightly know,
Thro' the world we safely go.
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georgiaboy
Shipmate
# 11294
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Posted
Since the TEC 1979 'Star Trek' EP has raised its 'lovely?' head, I'll mention my own reactions to it.
I was one of the diocesan 'Reader-Consultants' for Prayer Book revision, and so saw MUCH material before the final draft book ever got to General Convention. I must confess a giggle over that EP right from the start -- it just seemed so trendy. (Of course, TEC was big into trendy in those years -- late 60s/early 70s.)
'This fragile earth, our island home' seemed to cue the TV theme music (or worse).
But the grave marker was put on it for me by a priest who flubbed the line 'from the primal elements' into 'from the primal elephants'! Prayer C had a good long rest after that day!
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
But the grave marker was put on it for me by a priest who flubbed the line 'from the primal elements' into 'from the primal elephants'!
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Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Robert Armin
All licens'd fool
# 182
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Posted
My favourite mistake happened years ago, when I was a curate. A local priest, during the Words of Institution, said: "In the same way, after supper, he took the cup, broke it and gave it to them". That could occur with any of the EPs.
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Oblatus
Shipmate
# 6278
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'This fragile earth, our island home' seemed to cue the TV theme music (or worse).
A priest I once knew would always render this bit, starting with "the vast expanse of interstellar space," in that nasal yet resonant declamatory style often used by narrators of newsreel films in the mid-20th century. I really think he didn't know he was doing this. Once I noticed it, I thought it quite funny.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Oblatus:
quote:
Originally posted by georgiaboy:
'This fragile earth, our island home' seemed to cue the TV theme music (or worse).
A priest I once knew would always render this bit, starting with "the vast expanse of interstellar space," in that nasal yet resonant declamatory style often used by narrators of newsreel films in the mid-20th century. I really think he didn't know he was doing this. Once I noticed it, I thought it quite funny.
It's very Carl Sagan's Cosmos, isn't it? I'm beginning to wonder if he, inspired by the liberalism of 1970s Protestant Episcopalianism, dropped into an Episcopal church and got the idea for a television series.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
Now that the '79 BCP is brought into this, I will take the opportunity to enumerate the anaphorae authorized for use at a principal Sunday service in The Episcopal Church.
1. Eucharistic Prayer I from Rite I, and its close cousin Eucharistic Prayer II - so close as to really be textual variations of the same Cranmerian tradition.
2. Eucharistic Prayer A, the designated successor to the above.
3. Eucharistic Prayer B, which I recall was composed by ++Frank Griswold before he was a bishop. Similar themes to A, but different execution.
4. Eucharistic Prayer C, Star Trek. Notable for its congregational responses and for the fact that the rubrics imply an eastward orientation ("facing the people" and "facing the Holy Table" being treated as distinct concepts) but no kneeling.
5. Eucharistic Prayer D, TEC's version of the Anaphora of St. Basil; as such it is similar to Eucharistic Prayer IV in the Roman Missal and sees just about as much use as the latter.
6. Enriching Our Worship 1's Eucharistic Prayer I, which draws heavily on Genesis. It reminds me a lot of my Presbyterian days for some reason.
7. EOW 1 Eucharistic Prayer II, which I personally don't find flows very nicely. It seems to have a very feminine focus, with female images of the divine and a particular Marian emphasis.
8. EOW 1 Eucharistic Prayer III, which seems to draw heavily from Exodus.
In addition, of course, the "Rite III" provision allows texts meeting minimal standards and using set forms for the words of institution (from either BCP or EOW) at non-principal services with "careful preparation." Though I suppose that if someone wants to use a non-authorized eucharistic prayer at the late service, it can be argued that the "principal service" is the early one, because it comes first.
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sonata3
Shipmate
# 13653
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Posted
With regard to actual practice in TEC (as opposed to what's strictly legal), the New Zealand Prayer Book has its fans in the US, and I've encountered eucharistic prayers from that book in Episcopal services. And TEC is in full communion with ELCA (as opposed to the "impaired communion" with some of the Global South Anglican churches), and I've encountered eucharistic prayers from Evangelical Lutheran Worship in Episcopal services, both Episcopal churches, and in joint Episcopal-Lutheran parishes (of which there are a number).
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