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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Ordinariate Eucharistic Liturgy is Here!
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
OK, it is all pretty much what I expected. Nearly all of the changes are vast improvements, drawing more from the missals and the 1928 BCP than from the 1979 BCP. I could do without some of the options that still wreek of 1979, particularly the multiple forms of the prayers of the people. (How much Anglican "patrimony" is present in an American form that is less than forty years old?) I appreciate the missal forms most of all.
My feeling is that people with an experience of a more traditional form of Anglican liturgy--be it the missal or a more broad church form of the older prayer books--will prefer this revised Ordinariate liturgy, and probably not be terribly interested in the contemporary Anglican options that it still includes. If their preference is contemporary form, they probably would prefer to use the Ordinary Form of the Roman rite in the vernacular, anyway.
This is where the pontificate of Benedict XVI was so influential; so many of us said, "What were they thinking?" when the BDW came out and wondered why a more missal-friendly Order of Mass was not used. Now we have that. (Not really we, as I am not part of the Ordinariate. However, as someone who was raised as an Anglican, I take great interest in this liturgy; it is still quite close to my heart.)
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Interesting that the rubric is to bow at the Sanctus and cross oneself at the Benedictus. Patrimony.
Thurible
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Thurible:
Interesting that the rubric is to bow at the Sanctus and cross oneself at the Benedictus. Patrimony.
Thurible
Not sure what you mean. This is indeed what Anglo-Catholic priests have always done. Perhaps you are suggesting that the people should be kneeling here? There is a High/Low Mass disparity here, as traditionally there were separate rubrics for each.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
I think Thurible is complimenting the rubrics - these are things that are common amongst ACs but AFAIK are unknown in Roman Catholic circles.
Yes?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Thurible
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# 3206
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Posted
Zackerly.
Thurible
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
Crossing onself at the Benedictus is from the pre-V2 missal, and is still done at EF Masses today. It is true that it is no longer done in the OF, which sought to limit crossings to the beginning, gospel and final blessing.
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Knopwood
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# 11596
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Posted
The cross at "Benedictus" comes of course from preconciliar Roman usage, but IME is less common in its original context than among Anglo-Catholics. RCs who frequent the extraordinary form tend, I find, to be less regimented in their gestures than the Anglicans who look to them as a model.
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Ceremoniar
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# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LQ:
The cross at "Benedictus" comes of course from preconciliar Roman usage, but IME is less common in its original context than among Anglo-Catholics. RCs who frequent the extraordinary form tend, I find, to be less regimented in their gestures than the Anglicans who look to them as a model.
I find this among those who are newer to the EF, but among those who are old hacks at it, such gestures are quite common.
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Utrecht Catholic
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# 14285
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Posted
To cross onself at the Benedictus,is still done by Old-Catholics in the Netherlands,although the rite is the revised liturgy.
I have seen it too with US Episcopalians,and not only in A.C. shrines,but also with worshippers in St.Thomas,5th Avenue,Washington Cathedral and St.,John the Divine in New-York.Both cathedrals use Rite 2 at their Choral Eucharists,
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Robert Kennedy
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Olaf
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# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
To cross onself at the Benedictus,is still done by Old-Catholics in the Netherlands,although the rite is the revised liturgy.
I have seen it too with US Episcopalians,and not only in A.C. shrines,but also with worshippers in St.Thomas,5th Avenue,Washington Cathedral and St.,John the Divine in New-York.Both cathedrals use Rite 2 at their Choral Eucharists,
It's quite common in this TEC diocese, done by the majority of the people in all of the churches I've visited. Far less common is crossing oneself at the end of the Gloria or the Creed.
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
To cross onself at the Benedictus,is still done by Old-Catholics in the Netherlands,although the rite is the revised liturgy.
I have seen it too with US Episcopalians,and not only in A.C. shrines,but also with worshippers in St.Thomas,5th Avenue,Washington Cathedral and St.,John the Divine in New-York.Both cathedrals use Rite 2 at their Choral Eucharists,
It's quite common in this TEC diocese, done by the majority of the people in all of the churches I've visited.
I've regularly seen it done in MOTR Episcopal churches in NC.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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malik3000
Shipmate
# 11437
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
quote:
Originally posted by Utrecht Catholic:
To cross onself at the Benedictus,is still done by Old-Catholics in the Netherlands,although the rite is the revised liturgy.
I have seen it too with US Episcopalians,and not only in A.C. shrines,but also with worshippers in St.Thomas,5th Avenue,Washington Cathedral and St.,John the Divine in New-York.Both cathedrals use Rite 2 at their Choral Eucharists,
It's quite common in this TEC diocese, done by the majority of the people in all of the churches I've visited. Far less common is crossing oneself at the end of the Gloria or the Creed.
It's common at my MOTR parish in Atlanta.
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God = love.
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CL
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# 16145
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Posted
The new Eucharistic liturgy will be formally inaugurated in parishes on Advent Sunday.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
I've said before on other threads, that the notion that one must cross oneself at one point, and is forbidden to at another, is so profoundly un-Anglican as to be incompatible with claiming to express an Anglican patrimony.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Hmm, crossing oneself...
Anyone else reminded of the old joke about the rabbi in Rome? ![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Most people at our place cross themselves at the Benedictus, some at the epiclesis, and some at the doxology. Then again, the doxology is sung at the elevation and others genuflect either as well or instead of crossing, although the sanctuary party does not. They bow at the end of the doxology. Many also do at the "In the Glory" at the end of the Gloria.
Madame and I also cross ourselves at the end of the old 100th and similar hymns - those ending with an invocation of the Trinity and/or an Amen.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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PaulTH*
Shipmate
# 320
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Posted
This isn't a plug, but from Advent Sunday, the Church of the Assumption and St Gregory, Warwick St london, the main Ordinariate church, the Ordinariate Use will be celebrated every Sunday at 1030 Mass. I would highly recommend people to come along and experience it!
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Yours in Christ
Paul
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Liturgylover
Shipmate
# 15711
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by PaulTH*:
This isn't a plug, but from Advent Sunday, the Church of the Assumption and St Gregory, Warwick St london, the main Ordinariate church, the Ordinariate Use will be celebrated every Sunday at 1030 Mass. I would highly recommend people to come along and experience it!
Paul, I would be interested in visiting at some stage. Can you tell us whether the 10.30 mass includes hymns or are the propers sung chorally. If yes to hymns, which hymn book is used? Thanks.
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I wonder whether the Ordinary Form of the Roman Rite (Novus Ordo) will continue to be what is commonly used in Ordinariate groups in the UK (with the Ordinariate Use being used only once each Sunday - kind of like Latin and/or the Extraordinary Form is used in some non-Ordinariate RC parishes), since that is what most of them are used to, while the Ordinariate Use will be the norm in North America.
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Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
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Posted
Liturgy, it seems to me, often shapes architecture and church decoration. Anglican churches are often different in appearance from RC ones. Anglo Catholic churches too had their differences from RC ones - not always, but often.
Anglican 'patrimony' could include so many things!
I wonder if churches where the Ordinariate liturgy is celebrated will in some ways change in appearance to accommodate change.
Just a gentle (not provocative) thought!
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A witness of female resistance
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FCB
Hillbilly Thomist
# 1495
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Posted
Still no copy of the entire Order of Mass, including all the options, available on the Web (which itself is interesting, no?), but the Ordinariate parish in Calgary posts their bulletins, containing the complete text of what they are doing that particular Sunday (except for prayers said silently by the priest).
Here is one for an ordinary Sunday.
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Agent of the Inquisition since 1982.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
All seems rather lovely!
Although I too find the Last Gospel a bit unexpected. Despite its importance, not really sure what it adds. Some fine hymns as well.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Where did they get the Collect from?
I love the combination of English propers and hymns! This Mass could easily take 2 hours or more, though - I'm fine with that, but I know a lot of people who would not be.
Why can't the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the priest's Offertory Prayers (from the Tridentine Rite) be prayed aloud so the people can hear them? I have always wanted to do them dialogue Mass-style. Even with the Offertory Prayers, couldn't the people respond with Amen and, if needed, I's be changed to We's so that the Amen would make sense?
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Where did they get the Collect from?
It is the 1662 Collect for Advent II, now generally moved to the Sunday before Christ the King as 'Bible Sunday'. Why does 'the Lord be with you' precede this?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Where did they get the Collect from?
It is the 1662 Collect for Advent II, now generally moved to the Sunday before Christ the King as 'Bible Sunday'. Why does 'the Lord be with you' precede this?
It is traditional for the dominical salutation to precede the collect of the day. I am sad that the current Roman Missal does not do this. In the Tridentine Missal, there are nine salutations during the course of the Mass. Each one occurs at an important juncture, where the Mass "turns a corner," if you will. The Anglican Missal in the American edition includes these, too, and labels them accordingly.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Thanks, Ceremoniar, I had imagined it was something like that. Just seems a little odd, as it is neither a feature of the any Anglican rite (of which I am aware) nor of the Ordinary Form.
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... Why can't the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the priest's Offertory Prayers (from the Tridentine Rite) be prayed aloud so the people can hear them? I have always wanted to do them dialogue Mass-style. Even with the Offertory Prayers, couldn't the people respond with Amen and, if needed, I's be changed to We's so that the Amen would make sense?
Are you sure they are said silently? There's no indication in the linked script that there is any silent material. The notion that there should be parts of the service that the congregation can't hear, isn't really consistent with the claim to represent an Anglican patrimony.
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Thanks, Ceremoniar, I had imagined it was something like that. Just seems a little odd, as it is neither a feature of the any Anglican rite (of which I am aware) nor of the Ordinary Form.
It is in the Province of the West Indies. It's absence was conspicuous when I moved back to the UK.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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The Scrumpmeister
Ship’s Taverner
# 5638
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Posted
I lie. It was in the 1980 Prayer Book but doesn't appear in 1995, which also added the Filioque.
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If Christ is not fully human, humankind is not fully saved. - St John of Saint-Denis
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
... Why can't the Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and the priest's Offertory Prayers (from the Tridentine Rite) be prayed aloud so the people can hear them? I have always wanted to do them dialogue Mass-style. Even with the Offertory Prayers, couldn't the people respond with Amen and, if needed, I's be changed to We's so that the Amen would make sense?
Are you sure they are said silently? There's no indication in the linked script that there is any silent material. The notion that there should be parts of the service that the congregation can't hear, isn't really consistent with the claim to represent an Anglican patrimony.
As stated in the comments and links even earlier in this thread, the Tridentine Prayers at the Foot of the Altar and Priest's Offertory Prayers, translated into English as in the English/Anglican/American Missals, are an option for the new Ordinariate Use but if done must be done in a low voice (ie, inaudible to the congregation) by the celebrant and assisting ministers.
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Scrumpmeister:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Thanks, Ceremoniar, I had imagined it was something like that. Just seems a little odd, as it is neither a feature of the any Anglican rite (of which I am aware) nor of the Ordinary Form.
It is in the Province of the West Indies. It's absence was conspicuous when I moved back to the UK.
The explanation I have been given is that the new liturgies (i.e. in Canada, the BAS) begin with an opening greeting* (viz, the Grace), whereas a BCP Mass will begin with the Introit, (Lord's Prayer,) Collect for Purity, and Summary of the Law/Kyrie, so the celebrant actually makes it to the Collect (and thence the Epistle) without any salutation at all. There is no rubric directing it in the Communion Office itself, but those at the end of the Litany note that when it immediately precedes the Eucharist, the latter begins straightway with the mutual salutation and Collect. (I don't have a 1662 to hand, so it's possible this was a new [re-] insertion in 1959).
(*In practice, if the censing of the altar goes over, the Greeting is dropped and the Introit-Kyrie become a single 'movement').
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Thanks, Ceremoniar, I had imagined it was something like that. Just seems a little odd, as it is neither a feature of the any Anglican rite (of which I am aware) nor of the Ordinary Form.
The American 1979 BCP retains it before the collect.
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venbede
Shipmate
# 16669
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Posted
The greeting came directly before the collect in Series 2, if I recall correctly.
I'm used to the greeting in Common Worship coming at four pivotal points, the opening, before the gospel, at the start of the eucharistic prayer and before the blessing, although not in the main text of Common Worship.
Today I was at a low mass (Common Worship olde worlde language) when we had a greeting both at the opening (trinitarian) and before the collect.
That's five greetings. What were the other occasions?
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Man was made for joy and woe;
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Ceremoniar
Shipmate
# 13596
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by venbede:
The greeting came directly before the collect in Series 2, if I recall correctly.
I'm used to the greeting in Common Worship coming at four pivotal points, the opening, before the gospel, at the start of the eucharistic prayer and before the blessing, although not in the main text of Common Worship.
Today I was at a low mass (Common Worship olde worlde language) when we had a greeting both at the opening (trinitarian) and before the collect.
That's five greetings. What were the other occasions?
Those four are the same four that the current Roman Missal retains. The nine in the extraordinary form are:
1) At the end of the prayers of the foot of the altar, just before priest ascends to altar.
2) Before the collect of the day
3) Before the gospel
4) Before the offertory antiphon
5) Before the preface
6) The pax
7) Before the post-communion collect
8) Before the dismissal (this comes just before the final blessing)
9) Before the last gospel
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Knopwood
Shipmate
# 11596
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Posted
Well, in the traditional Roman Rite the salutation also introduces the offertory verse (there is speculation that it initially led into the Intercessions before these disappeared from most Western liturgies early on). And immediately after the conclusion of the Mass itself, the Last Gospel is introduced in the usual way (although the reponse at the end is simply "Thanks be to God" as for an epistle).
There is also an exchange of the salutation during the prayers at the foot of the altar, though these would only be heard and responded to by the servers save at a dialogue (low) mass. (At our place, they're recited in common at the beginning of the Mass when it is celebrated in French on Tuesdays). And if you count the Peace, that brings us to seven. Ceremoniar will have to help us round out the number!
[xposted with Ceremoniar doing just that - thank you!]
[ 11. December 2013, 20:59: Message edited by: LQ ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ceremoniar:
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Thanks, Ceremoniar, I had imagined it was something like that. Just seems a little odd, as it is neither a feature of the any Anglican rite (of which I am aware) nor of the Ordinary Form.
The American 1979 BCP retains it before the collect.
Thanks everyone for the other replies - clearly this is the reason for it, and represents part of N. American Anglican patrimony (sorry for not being aware of it!).
Is it in the Scottish BCP or any previous book?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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