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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Immersion of Infants
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Yesterday four beautiful babies were baptized at church. This is the first set of infant baptisms I've seen, as our parish is evangelical - up until now it's all be dedications or adult baptisms/renewals.
I was surprised to see the same pool used for adults at the front. Sure enough the vicar took the babies and immersed them.
I haven't attended many infant baptisms in my life, but normally aren't they done with pouring water over the infant's head? I've heard the Greek Orthodox do immersion but that's it.
So, anyone else in the Church of England/Anglican Communion seen an infant immersed for baptism?
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Offeiriad
Ship's Arboriculturalist
# 14031
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Posted
Immersion/dipping is supposed to be standard practice according to the Book of Common Prayer, with affusion ('pouring') only for children 'certified as weak'.
Respect for a church which is trying to clearly demonstrate the truth that they have one practice for baptism reflecting one theology of baptism, one which is true regardless of age!
[ 18. November 2013, 08:16: Message edited by: Oferyas ]
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Galilit
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# 16470
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Posted
How did the babies react?
Were they clothed (or at least swaddled)?
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seekingsister
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# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Galilit:
How did the babies react?
Were they clothed (or at least swaddled)?
All of the babies were in bathing suits.
The vicar held the babies in his arms and sort of swooped them in and out of the water in one movement. They weren't dunked in or bent backwards like I've seen with adults.
All of the babies cried a bit when they came out of the water - which was very warm. The last one to go was a bit older than the others and had observed what was going on, she was the most reluctant to get in. She was sobbing when she came out but the vicar gave her a big hug, it was very heartwarming.
The whole thing was pretty amazing, certainly faith building from my perspective at least.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I know quite a few RC churches that baptize babies by full immersion, normally nude. Three immersions and then the 'lion king pose.' Unfortunately our font is much too small for anything but pouring.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Is immersion what non-churchgoers expect when they bring their babies to be baptised? I imagine that some of them have an image of delicate 'sprinkling' in mind, and wouldn't see immersion as very dignified.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
Three immersions and then the 'lion king pose.'
Hah - I may recommend this to the church for next time.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
Is immersion what non-churchgoers expect when they bring their babies to be baptised? I imagine that some of them have an image of delicate 'sprinkling' in mind, and wouldn't see immersion as very dignified.
I didn't even expect it! So I'm sure they didn't either, except for the family whose second child was being baptized; presumably the relatives had seen the first one.
The vicar explained why he was immersing them - the symbolism of Jesus' death and resurrection. So even if they found it odd, at least they had some context for it.
To be honest I think the guests were more confused by the modern worship music and the raised arms that followed the baptism, than they were by the baptism itself!
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If the parents didn't know about the immersion in advance how were they able to dress the babies appropriately? They surely weren't in christening robes for a full immersion!
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Bishops Finger
Shipmate
# 5430
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Posted
There must surely have been some preparation beforehand - at least for the parents and godparents! The vicar may well have been doing what ours does as the rite proceeds, in giving some brief explanations of what's going on for the benefit of the rest of the baptismal family party/parties.
Ian J.
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Our words are giants when they do us an injury, and dwarfs when they do us a service. (Wilkie Collins)
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
If the parents didn't know about the immersion in advance how were they able to dress the babies appropriately? They surely weren't in christening robes for a full immersion!
Sorry - I misunderstood you.
The parents must have known in advance - you're right, no one wore a robe into the pool! - but I'm not sure that all of their guests did.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We do immersion, quite nude, of infants. We're Orthodox but not Greek. All of the Plot™ does it.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
seekingsister
Thanks. Very interesting.
I've never really thought of what it must look like when an infant baptism (and especially an immersion!) occurs at a charismatic-type church. Those of us from outside the CofE tend not to put those two things together. I was wondering if such congregations ever 'tone things down' when an infant baptism takes place, knowing that baptismal parties might find things strange otherwise. But perhaps this kind of situation is happening more and more often now, so perhaps visitors will get more used to it.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
We do immersion, quite nude, of infants. We're Orthodox but not Greek. All of the Plot™ does it.
What type of pool/bath do you use? Is it a permanent fixture or something that gets brought out for baptism services?
Coming from a strict credobaptist background this is all rather new to me. Personally I've always thought I'll do a thanksgiving/dedication rather than a baptism whenever I had kids. But something about seeing those little ones immersed really got to me. It was very moving.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
We have the big copper chalice!
ETA: It's about 4' tall.
[ 18. November 2013, 16:01: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
I know a lot of churches that have something like this, a permanent font that allows for both sprinking, immersion, and using holy water to bless yourself outside of baptisms.
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Ave Crux, Spes Unica!
Preaching blog
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Is it true that a recent trend in contstructing fonts in RC Churches (and maybe in other denominations) is one designed for people standing in water while water is being poured over their head, but not for immersion? In RCIA, the priest said this was based on "historical scholarship and the earliest known images of people being baptized." Is there any basis to that? Babies either can't stand or won't stand in water if you tell them to, so I do not know what supporters of this kind of baptism would recommend for children. Of course, most RC baptisms continue to be in tiny fonts with pouring water over the head alone, regardless of the age of the person being baptized.
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
We have the big copper chalice!
ETA: It's about 4' tall.
That's beautiful, and ever so slightly scary!
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I know a lot of churches that have something like this, a permanent font that allows for both sprinking, immersion, and using holy water to bless yourself outside of baptisms.
I pull out this old chestnut whenever the topic of Catholic immersions comes up.
There is a very big pool behind the fence, which of course is removed when baptisms actually occur. On the back stone wall, one can see the tiny waterfall cascading down from the holy water stoup at the higher entry level.
Liturgy buffs will notice the octagonal skylight above the font. The ramp's direction is symbolic: after encountering the font and stoup, one symbolically changes direction to enter the worship space. (The church's entry is to the left of the artwork seen illuminated in the very back of the picture. The picture is taken from worship space, facing the baptismal pool.)
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
I hope the water was changed between babies. After all, babies haven't learnt control of bodily functions. For hygiene reasons we wouldn't normally bathe babies in the same water.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
I think our Occupational Health and safety Nazis would have a field day on this, not only on the basis of hygiene, but baby handling Lion King poses, too.
Interesting, it sounds as if the amalgam of immersion and paedo-baptism reflects a coming together of charismatic and sacramental traditions - in theory I like it, but in reality for all sorts of reasons I will stick to sprinkling. Not least in this sad day and age where nude photos can quickly circulate for most unholy purposes. ![[Tear]](graemlins/tear.gif)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I hope the water was changed between babies. After all, babies haven't learnt control of bodily functions. For hygiene reasons we wouldn't normally bathe babies in the same water.
Babies don't bathe together where you're from? This is normal for those I know.
Anyway even nude full immersion is pretty quick, it's not like having a bath!
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
I hope the water was changed between babies. After all, babies haven't learnt control of bodily functions. For hygiene reasons we wouldn't normally bathe babies in the same water.
The babies were in swimsuits with diapers on and spent no more than a few seconds in the water. The water was also very warm. So I don't think it was an issue.
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
Olaf that pool looks beautiful.
If it's the same one I've found on Google -Chicago? - it's apparently a church that ministers to th black community. With competition from Baptist and evangelical churches maybe that's the reson for the impressive baptismal pool?
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by seekingsister:
Olaf that pool looks beautiful.
If it's the same one I've found on Google -Chicago? - it's apparently a church that ministers to th black community. With competition from Baptist and evangelical churches maybe that's the reson for the impressive baptismal pool?
Yes, it is on the South side of Chicago. It was built to replace something like five shuttered old ethnic Catholic churches in the days following white flight from that neighborhood. I've actually been in the church, which is one of the plainest and yet most memorable Catholic worship spaces I've seen.
The building is modeled upon a style of African tent. The worship space was designed to be in the round, with the altar in the middle, but they have since moved it to the edge. There are actual ficus trees and bananas growing from the earth around the edges of the worship space, as the foundation allowed for certain spots of earth to come through.
Chicago has some fairly significant pockets of African-American Catholics who have long family histories as Catholics. I'm not sure there would be too much competition.
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Spiffy
Ship's WonderSheep
# 5267
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
I know quite a few RC churches that baptize babies by full immersion, normally nude. Three immersions and then the 'lion king pose.' Unfortunately our font is much too small for anything but pouring.
This is what I encountered at my last infant-at-a-RC-church-baptism. As a bonus, the font was a giant, clear glass bowl so we in the congregation got to see baby's behind pressed up against the glass when baby went into the water.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
the 'lion king pose.'
![[Killing me]](graemlins/killingme.gif)
Love it!
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JeffTL
Apprentice
# 16722
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Is it true that a recent trend in contstructing fonts in RC Churches (and maybe in other denominations) is one designed for people standing in water while water is being poured over their head, but not for immersion? In RCIA, the priest said this was based on "historical scholarship and the earliest known images of people being baptized." Is there any basis to that? Babies either can't stand or won't stand in water if you tell them to, so I do not know what supporters of this kind of baptism would recommend for children. Of course, most RC baptisms continue to be in tiny fonts with pouring water over the head alone, regardless of the age of the person being baptized.
The Archdiocese of Chicago requires (http://policy.archchicago.org/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=uJEUsPgbDmM%3d&tabid=10169) immersion-capable fonts in all new churches, and fonts capable of immersing at least in infant in renovations. I know that St. Peter's in the Loop, Chicago, built a beautiful immersion font out of their communion rail – though as an Anglican, I of course find the RC penchant for demolishing communion rails a bit short-sighted (what if kneeling for communion comes back into fashion among Roman Catholics?).
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Does anyone know if there is any merit to the "pouring water over someone wading in water is the most historically authentic form of baptism" argument? Of course it doesn't work for infants, but I am talking about adults.
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
We don't know what the original form of the rite was. But, what you describe is pictured in some very old mosaics. I'm traveling right now, so I can't look up the details, but I think the oldest visual depictions we have of baptism depict it that way. The front cover of Max Johnson's history of baptism is a mosaic that depicts (a naked) Jesus being baptized that way.
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Preaching blog
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Quam Dilecta
Shipmate
# 12541
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Posted
I agree that old images of baptism generally show the person being baptised standing in water while more water is poured over his head. The earliest fonts which I have seen are deep enough for water at least knee-deep, and often waist-deep. In such fonts the officiant stood in the water with the candidate. In northern Europe, Medieval fonts were smaller, but still large enough enough to allow "dipping" of infants.
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Blessd are they that dwell in thy house
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Does anyone know if there is any merit to the "pouring water over someone wading in water is the most historically authentic form of baptism" argument? Of course it doesn't work for infants, but I am talking about adults.
Even if it's the oldest, that doesn't necessarily make it "the most historically authentic".
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Hart:
We don't know what the original form of the rite was. But, what you describe is pictured in some very old mosaics. I'm traveling right now, so I can't look up the details, but I think the oldest visual depictions we have of baptism depict it that way. The front cover of Max Johnson's history of baptism is a mosaic that depicts (a naked) Jesus being baptized that way.
Do we have any details of the ritual cleansings used in pre-Christian Jewish practice? One imagines that the Baptism by John would have followed something along those lines. Didn't Elijah immerse himself in the Jordan?
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Flinging wide the gates...
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Does anyone know if there is any merit to the "pouring water over someone wading in water is the most historically authentic form of baptism" argument? Of course it doesn't work for infants, but I am talking about adults.
The Didache (late 1st/early 2nd century) says to baptize in "living water" but if that's not available, to pour over the head three times.
It may be that to align with the river/sea baptisms described in the Gospel, the church decided that was the "best" form, while allowing for other methods in consideration of Christians' access to large bodies of water.
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Ritual whole body immersion in Judaism only happens- after ejaculation (whether in the course of intercourse or not)
- after intercourse
- during menstruation
- at the end of a womsn's period
- if a woman has any other kind of vaginal discharge
- before being received into the synagogue if a gentile converts to Judaism
In addition, some strands say that men should bathe before the sabbath.
Otherwise ritual washing tends to be either just the hands or hands and feet.
If open (living) water is not available then a mikvah (which may be fed by a spring) or ritual bath is used - if no spring then the tap is left running so that the water is "live".
edited to remove duplicated words - ooops!
[ 21. November 2013, 14:59: Message edited by: L'organist ]
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I'm told that the Jordan is rather like the California rivers I'm acquainted with --- for most of the year you'd have to lie down to get fully underwater, and for the rest the river's in flood and not safe for wading (or full immersion baptism).
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Adam.
Like as the
# 4991
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Do we have any details of the ritual cleansings used in pre-Christian Jewish practice? One imagines that the Baptism by John would have followed something along those lines. Didn't Elijah immerse himself in the Jordan?
Still on the road, so no references, but I seem to remember a pretty big disjunctive being posed between Jewish ritual washing and even John's baptism. In particular, John's was administered by John, whereas Jewish practice was for one to bathe oneself.
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Thanks, you have me thinking. Might try looking into it!
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Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
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Posted
Okay, I have no sources, so I cannot verify this. However, it has been suggested to me that in order for a non-Jew to become a Jew, he/she must be baptized. What I've heard is that the person in question removed all his clothes (they were taken and burned) and stepped down into a pool of water, where there was some sort of dipping or ritual washing. He then stepped up out of the pool on the other side and put on clean, white garments. They left behind non-Jewish family, friends, and even name.
Whether this is true or not I cannot say, but if it was true, then that would help explain early Christian baptismal practice. The point of the story was that John was being rather offensive to Jews by suggesting that they needed to be baptized, as though they weren't Jews already.
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Anglo Catholic Relict
Shipmate
# 17213
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barefoot Friar:
The point of the story was that John was being rather offensive to Jews by suggesting that they needed to be baptized, as though they weren't Jews already.
I don't think it was offensive; certainly the Gospels do not show anyone at all being offended by this practice, and I think they would have included that information if it were true.
What seems to have caused offence is the thought that sinners could be purified at all. That sin could be forgiven and washed away by sufficient repentance. This is again standard Jewish thought, but seems to have caused problems for some onlookers.
It seems to be regarded as a continuation of the normal practice of ritual purification by water, extended to the whole person for the purposes of repentance. That is consistent with Jewish practice and belief, afaiaa.
[ 22. November 2013, 12:49: Message edited by: Anglo Catholic Relict ]
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dj_ordinaire
Host
# 4643
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Posted
Regarding offensiveness, I've heard similar things.
The fact that the Gospel-writer sees fit to explain why Christ should do such a thing ('such that all my be fulfilled according to its order', or similar translations) implies that it was not a desirable thing for a respectable person to do. Why? presumably because it implied prior sinfulness that the Old Covenant should have dealt with!
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Flinging wide the gates...
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Basilica
Shipmate
# 16965
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by dj_ordinaire:
Regarding offensiveness, I've heard similar things.
The fact that the Gospel-writer sees fit to explain why Christ should do such a thing ('such that all my be fulfilled according to its order', or similar translations) implies that it was not a desirable thing for a respectable person to do. Why? presumably because it implied prior sinfulness that the Old Covenant should have dealt with!
This might be getting into Kerygmatics territory... I'm sure I've read explanations that suggested the potential embarrassment came from Jesus' apparent submission to John's baptism, when Jesus was considered John's superior. Hence the emphasis given to John's unworthiness to stoop to untie the thong of his sandal. I.e. that the undesirability was particular to Jesus, rather than a general societal thing.
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Mikveh washings were used as part of a traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism.
Converts to Judaism are required to undergo full immersion in water.
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G.K. Chesterton
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Nick Tamen
Ship's Wayfaring Fool
# 15164
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Mikveh washings were used as part of a traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism.
Converts to Judaism are required to undergo full immersion in water.
Right, but as L'organist points out above, that is not the only time that mikveh washings were or are used. The purpose of the mikveh is to make one ritually clean. That is the context in which it is used in conversions.
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The first thing God says to Moses is, "Take off your shoes." We are on holy ground. Hard to believe, but the truest thing I know. — Anne Lamott
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Nick Tamen:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Mikveh washings were used as part of a traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism.
Converts to Judaism are required to undergo full immersion in water.
Right, but as L'organist points out above, that is not the only time that mikveh washings were or are used. The purpose of the mikveh is to make one ritually clean. That is the context in which it is used in conversions.
Indeed; I wasn't disagreeing, I was adding to his list.
Baptism for the remission of sins.
Mikveh for ritual cleansing and conversion.
Sounds just like what JtB did, what Jesus said to do in the name of the FSHSp, what Peter ordered on the day of Pentecost, and what Philip assisted the Ethiopian Eunuch to do.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Mikveh washings were used as part of a traditional procedure for conversion to Judaism.
Converts to Judaism are required to undergo full immersion in water.
Don't male converts undergo something more painful?
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
Nowadays most mohel use anaesthetic paste.
And in the case of adults the most common thing is to go to a proper GU surgeon - with full pain relief.
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