|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: How can I enjoy heaven when my loved ones are in Hell?
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
The idea of anybody I love being in Hell makes eternity seem like a horrible prospect. "You'll get over it, you'll be so happy in God's presence" seems pretty empty. I can't imagine being happy knowing my mother (say) was in unremitting screaming agony for all eternity. It seems downright monstrous to think I can "get over" that and just be happy. It makes God seem to have less compassion than I do.
And anybody who thinks the blessed will delight in the agony of the damned worships a demon.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
Who says everyone else will be in hell? That is not the way I read the Gospel.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
Who says everyone else will be in hell? That is not the way I read the Gospel.
I don't believe I said "everyone else."
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gramps49
Shipmate
# 16378
|
Posted
I did not say you said everyone else will be in hell. You did say how can you enjoy heaven when you know people you love will be in hell. My response is, how do you know people you love will be in hell?
I believe in universal salvation, with the exception of some very evil persons, though I am not the final judge on who these persons may be.
Posts: 2193 | From: Pullman WA | Registered: Apr 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gramps49:
My response is, how do you know people you love will be in hell?
Again, I didn't say I knew that. I don't really know a lot about the afterlife. So few have come back to explain it to us. I tend to universalism, but there are certainly strong arguments against it.
But I know that some people think that there is a Hell or Lake of Fire or something, and that there will be no small number of people in it, in eternal torment. According to them, there will probably be people I love in Hell. I would like them to explain how they think the blessed can enjoy heaven when people they love are in Hell.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
|
Posted
I asked this question in a recent thread yes the elect are supposed to enjoy Heaven knowing the damned are burning in Hell. according to one poster who was kind enough to reply. It doesn't really upset me since I don't believe in an afterlife, but it certainly damps any yearning for heaven.
I've worked in companies where a certain percentage of the employees are abused and everyone is supposed to ignore that and praise the management. I didn't care for it, even when I wasn't in the abused set.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
|
Posted
MT,
I've begun reading this guy's book which is probably the most exhaustive study ever done on what the bible teaches about the end of the wicked. It appears this video serves to sum up what he has found thus far.
Maybe you will find it useful.
--------------------
"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It makes God seem to have less compassion than I do.
I often hear the charge that the Old Testament God is a nasty wrathful God compared to the loving, gentle New Testament God revealed in Jesus.
Eternal torture sets that idea firmly at rest.
The idea of eternal torture in Hell is so at odds with the love, mercy and forgiveness as revealed in Christ that I haven't the faintest idea how to reconcile the two. I'm not sure its even possible.
The only way I can see it is to reject the idea of eternal torment in Hell as a human fabrication to instill fear ( and therefore presumably produce obedience)
[ 17. November 2013, 06:12: Message edited by: Evensong ]
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
But I know that some people think that there is a Hell or Lake of Fire or something, and that there will be no small number of people in it, in eternal torment. According to them, there will probably be people I love in Hell. I would like them to explain how they think the blessed can enjoy heaven when people they love are in Hell.
Well, as I am almost guaranteed to be there, I'll take care of them for you MT. Take them 'round, show them the choicest bits of the Lake to lounge in.
Yeah, always thought the punishment bit was a tad off, even for the Old Testament.
God: Most of you will be born into situations where it is nigh impossible for you to know the rules, those who will hear them will have a high percentage unlikely to believe the rules and those who do believe are likely to cock it up anyway.
But I did this because I love you.
Yeah, not bollocks, none of it.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
You can't, but they won't - so that's OK.
Next question?
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
MT,
I've begun reading this guy's book which is probably the most exhaustive study ever done on what the bible teaches about the end of the wicked. It appears this video serves to sum up what he has found thus far.
Maybe you will find it useful.
Curious. Thanks for posting. Summary here if anyone else is interested.
What are the counter arguments and objections to his ideas?
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Desert Daughter
Shipmate
# 13635
|
Posted
This dilemma shows that linear thinking (e.g., if...then)and thinking in dualisms (e.g., heaven-hell) has its limits when trying to approach the Divine order of things and no-things.
We will never have an answer this side of death, but approaching the question with dualisms might be misleading.
Another thought: What survives is love. Both God's love and the love that exists between Mousethief and members of his family -and through their love they partake in God, who is love.
But that's a matter for contemplation, not reasoning.
--------------------
"Prayer is the rejection of concepts." (Evagrius Ponticus)
Posts: 733 | Registered: Apr 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Clint Boggis
Shipmate
# 633
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The idea of anybody I love being in Hell makes eternity seem like a horrible prospect. "You'll get over it, you'll be so happy in God's presence" seems pretty empty. I can't imagine being happy knowing my mother (say) was in unremitting screaming agony for all eternity. It seems downright monstrous to think I can "get over" that and just be happy. It makes God seem to have less compassion than I do.
And anybody who thinks the blessed will delight in the agony of the damned worships a demon.
At last! We singles spending a lifetime of solitude, eating ready meals for one and holidaying alone have a slightly better deal (no-one to worry about) than all those who spent decades surrounded by people who love them.
Kidding, sort of.
Your question makes sense if in heaven a recognisable 'you' with your memories carry on your life as now but with no worries or tax bills. And more singing.
I don't think so. Jesus covered this while answering the serial husbands/wives question. [citation needed]
[ 17. November 2013, 09:25: Message edited by: Clint Boggis ]
Posts: 1505 | From: south coast | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clint Boggis:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The idea of anybody I love being in Hell makes eternity seem like a horrible prospect. "You'll get over it, you'll be so happy in God's presence" seems pretty empty. I can't imagine being happy knowing my mother (say) was in unremitting screaming agony for all eternity. It seems downright monstrous to think I can "get over" that and just be happy. It makes God seem to have less compassion than I do.
And anybody who thinks the blessed will delight in the agony of the damned worships a demon.
At last! We singles spending a lifetime of solitude, eating ready meals for one and holidaying alone have a slightly better deal (no-one to worry about) than all those who spent decades surrounded by people who love them.
Kidding, sort of.
Your question makes sense if in heaven a recognisable 'you' with your memories carry on your life as now but with no worries or tax bills. And more singing.
I don't think so. Jesus covered this while answering the serial husbands/wives question. [citation needed]
Do some people actually believe this? I mean the recognizable you business, without tax bills or that annoying rash on my back. Gordon Bennett, if I may cite an ancestral god. Singing would be OK, if Northern Soul is allowed.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
|
Posted
Most people I know who believe in conscious eternal punishment in Hell say that it will be 'veiled' and that the saved or the Elect won't know whether their loved ones are there or not ... or else that by that time they'll have become acclimatised to God's justice and so on that they'll be able to see things from His perspective and recognise that these people - whether loved ones or not - deserved what was coming ....
Or something like that.
Most people who believe the above seem able to 'switch-off' or detach themselves to some extent.
I've mentioned it before, but my brother used to know a bloke, an extreme hyper-Calvinist, who was convinced that one of his own daughers was Reprobate and it had eternally been decreed that she would spend eternity in conscious torment in Hell-fire ...
He seemed to have a certain equanimity about the prospect. It didn't seem to faze him at all.
I'm tempted - at the risk of a Hell-call here (or in the hereafter?) - to cite this - admittedly extreme - Calvinistic reaction as evidence for how cold and heartless the Reformed stance on these things when taken to their ultimate conclusion.
But I recognise that most Reformed people step off the moving conveyor-belt before it reaches that particular destination.
--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
|
Posted
Mr. Fudge lost me in his opening line, saying "We know that none of us in this room will have this problem, so we can look at the issue" or words to that effect.
He is certain that he has it right, and knows what God's judgment of him will be, that he can afford to be flippant about those who go to Hell.
Not much help there then...except to make me think unkind thoughts. 'Nuff said.
--------------------
It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
| IP: Logged
|
|
Russ
Old salt
# 120
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Desert Daughter:
What survives is love. Both God's love and the love between Mousethief and members of his family -and through their love they partake in God, who is love.
But that's a matter for contemplation, not reasoning.
Why can't we reason about love ?
I reason that if Mousethief loves his family then they probably care for him as well, at least a little. Loving someone totally depraved, totally hateful, is up there with the things that only Jesus and the great saints can do. (sorry MT - doubting that you qualify just yet)
If they have shown love on earth then a just God will not be torturing them for all eternity.
This isn't an issue for those who belief in a just and loving God; it's an issue for those who believe in a powerful and authoritarian God who gets to define what constitutes good behaviour for gods.
The sort of person who goes around claiming "Justice is whatever I say it is" or "Goodness is whatever I in my wisdom choose to do" is not considered just or good in the ordinary meaning of those words.
Best wishes,
Russ
--------------------
Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
Posts: 3169 | From: rural Ireland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Barefoot Friar
Ship's Shoeless Brother
# 13100
|
Posted
This pretty much sums up what I think about the whole thing. The idea of eternal conscious torment is reprehensible, in my not-so-humble opinion.
--------------------
Do your little bit of good where you are; its those little bits of good put together that overwhelm the world. -- Desmond Tutu
Posts: 1621 | From: Warrior Mountains | Registered: Oct 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
As there's no such thing as a totally Christ-like human being (aside from Jesus himself) and there's no such thing as a totally depraved human being afaik, I wonder what part of each of us will be burning in hell and which will be singing in heaven.
If we can enjoy relationship with God in this life sad in the knowledge that some of our relatives don't, why would it be different after death?
The images of hell in the Bible are symbolic, they're meant to show that in the end justice will be done and evil itself will be burnt off.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Do some people actually believe this? I mean the recognizable you business, without tax bills or that annoying rash on my back.
You mean the idea that we will be raised as a spiritual body yet still recognizable as who we once were?
Absolutely.
Same as Jesus.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The idea of anybody I love being in Hell makes eternity seem like a horrible prospect. "You'll get over it, you'll be so happy in God's presence" seems pretty empty. I can't imagine being happy knowing my mother (say) was in unremitting screaming agony for all eternity. It seems downright monstrous to think I can "get over" that and just be happy. It makes God seem to have less compassion than I do.
I'm not sure that invoking your mother does any work here other than making the general horror of hell more vividly present now. One would hope that in the afterlife our capacity to love would extend past our blood relations, and that all who do not make it into heaven have a similar standing before the eyes of the communion of saints.
But we may indeed ask whether being a loving son in this life would require the sort of response that would stop his mother from being numbered among the doomed. St Monica and St Augustine in reverse, basically. And if there is no such action, then who is to blame - the son or God? And if there is such action but it bears no fruit, then who is to blame - the mother or God?
If the fate of your loved ones in the afterlife weighs heavy on your heart, let that guide thought, word and action. Has the Lord not said "Whatever you ask in my name, I will do it, that the Father may be glorified in the Son; if you ask anything in my name, I will do it." (John 14:13-14) I think we can all agree that asking him for a new car may not be asking in His name, but surely if there is one thing in the world that we can ask properly in His name, then it is for the salvation of the ones we love. Shall we answer then to God that we are not our mother's keeper? You want to see her in heaven? Make it so. The Lord Himself said that you can.
I believe our human reckoning cannot constrain God. If one requires that God shows more compassion than we do, one must also require that he show more concern for holiness than we do. If greater mercy, then also greater justice. We do not understand how all of these can be increased at the same time, and that's precisely where we should leave that. We should follow Job in letting God be God.
But if we wish to negotiate our fate with God, and that of our loved ones, then the time is now. This world is where the unchangeable God comes down to us, to become changeable in His interactions with us changeable beings. The next world is where we changeable humans go up to Him, to become unchangeable in our interactions with His unchangeable Being. The problem we have with the eternity of heaven and hell is nothing but a reflection of our current mode of being. Surely there must be a time and way to change matters? Yes, indeed. Now there is. But then there won't be. The justice and mercy of then is nothing but the justice and mercy of now. Death is the deadline.
As for the afterlife, our tears may be dried but not by amnesia. Jesus' resurrected body bears the wounds He received in this life. The sorrows of this life will be present to our minds, and so also in the existence of the doomed. We should be careful about claiming that there is absolutely no way in which God could save us but not our loved ones. If we make this a stone too heavy for God to lift, then we may not be forcing our loved ones into heaven, but ourselves into hell.
God's love will overcome death and guarantee everlasting life and happiness. There can be no doubt about that. But love it is, not some automatic salvation dispenser. And God has made us the instruments of His love, we cannot simply point to Him in the expectation that He will take care of everything no matter what. We are called by Him to take care of things and people in His love, He has delegated responsibility to us. And where could this be more the case than where our loved ones are concerned? So maybe indeed it is impossible that you be in heaven and your mother be in hell. But there are two possible resolutions of that then, not just one, and if you wish for God to pick one over the other, then you have something to do. Ask. Pray. Knock. Before you die.
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
quote:
IngoB: But we may indeed ask whether being a loving son in this life would require the sort of response that would stop his mother from being numbered among the doomed.
I can imagine a mugger in a Pulp Fiction-style film saying this while pointing his gun at your mother's head.
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
|
Posted
To what extent are we our brothers' keepers?
We can't insist that others believe in God. Persistence may turn them off even more.
--------------------
Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Do some people actually believe this? I mean the recognizable you business, without tax bills or that annoying rash on my back.
You mean the idea that we will be raised as a spiritual body yet still recognizable as who we once were?
Absolutely.
Same as Jesus.
But I'm not recognizable now. People who used to know me walk past me, and when I grab them, call the police. Eventually, when they calm down, they say, but why have you changed so much? I say, I haven't changed, you just muddled up an image with who I am.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
MT,
I've begun reading this guy's book which is probably the most exhaustive study ever done on what the bible teaches about the end of the wicked. It appears this video serves to sum up what he has found thus far.
Maybe you will find it useful.
Curious. Thanks for posting. Summary here if anyone else is interested.
What are the counter arguments and objections to his ideas?
Thanks Evensong. A quick look at the summary saved me from having to wade through the original link, which I would have found a tad infuriating.
I think ... I will leave it at that. This is, after all, Purgatory board and not Hell board, so I can't say what I really think.
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
|
Posted
Back to the OP: don't know, can't know, can't know whether this in fact will be the case, whether it is or not there's nothing really you can do about it. Stick it in the too-hard basket, and keep buggering on.
[ 17. November 2013, 13:58: Message edited by: Albertus ]
--------------------
My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
But there are two possible resolutions of that then, not just one, and if you wish for God to pick one over the other, then you have something to do. Ask. Pray. Knock. Before you die.
So all mousethief has to do to get his mother into heaven is ask?
Piece of cake. There you go mousethief.
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But I'm not recognizable now. People who used to know me walk past me, and when I grab them, call the police. Eventually, when they calm down, they say, but why have you changed so much? I say, I haven't changed, you just muddled up an image with who I am.
We see now through a glass darkly, but then we shall see face to face?
Maybe we'll know each other as we truly are in the age to come.
I guess the point being that our essence will still be the same. The accidents may change.
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Thanks Evensong. A quick look at the summary saved me from having to wade through the original link, which I would have found a tad infuriating.
I think ... I will leave it at that. This is, after all, Purgatory board and not Hell board, so I can't say what I really think.
Oh GO ON. Be brave. Just don't direct it at Mere Nick, direct it at the theology. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
I actually just skimmed the video very briefly (it was an hour for flips sake!) but listened to the conclusion. The main idea seemed quite sound. I guess that's why I was wondering about counter objections to the particular theology.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
mousethief ![[Overused]](graemlins/notworthy.gif) ![[Axe murder]](graemlins/lovedrops.gif) ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) ![[Smile]](smile.gif) but not necessarily in that order.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
|
Posted
Evensong wrote:
We see now through a glass darkly, but then we shall see face to face?
Maybe we'll know each other as we truly are in the age to come.
I guess the point being that our essence will still be the same. The accidents may change.
Well, now you're guessing I think. OK, guesswork is OK with me, as long as I can have my own guesses. Well, I just don't know.
--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
| IP: Logged
|
|
PaulBC
Shipmate
# 13712
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
mousethief but not necessarily in that order.
mouse theif I endorse this position .
blessings PaulBC
--------------------
"He has told you O mortal,what is good;and what does the Lord require of youbut to do justice and to love kindness ,and to walk humbly with your God."Micah 6:8
Posts: 873 | From: Victoria B.C. Canada | Registered: May 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Evensong
Shipmate
# 14696
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Well, now you're guessing I think. OK, guesswork is OK with me, as long as I can have my own guesses. Well, I just don't know.
Not pure guesswork. I'm thinking 1 Cor 15:
What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable. It is sown in dishonour, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
If we are completely different and unrecognizable people in the general resurrection there's little point in a general resurrection at all. May as well just be a completely different creation or person.
--------------------
a theological scrapbook
Posts: 9481 | From: Australia | Registered: Apr 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
This is how I see it...
God is love. He is not half-love, or 'love' only to believers. There is no part of Him which is not love. His justice is based on His love; in fact, His justice is His love, because justice is love, and love is just.
He desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and He does not change. Therefore His desire for the salvation of all people endures forever.
If someone is eternally damned, he or she is eternally loved by God. Yes! It is actually love which damns that person. That person must therefore be unrepetantly evil. He has a nature which is completely inimical to the love of God. He hates mercy. He really does. He loathes the saints, he loathes goodness, he has nothing but contempt for compassion. That is what it means to be truly evil. The fruit of a tree reveals the nature of the tree.
The idea that people could be condemned, who are not given over to evil at the depth of their being, but who have simply failed to tick the correct religious boxes, is complete nonsense. This is the great hoax of religion. It is divorced from the reality of people's hearts; from the reality of what people actually are.
So if I were to say: "I could not be happy in heaven knowing that a loved one is burning in hell" what am I actually saying? I am saying that I cannot be happy unless God concedes to evil. I am saying that I cannot be happy knowing that God loves my evil and depraved relative or 'friend' (some friend!), because it is the love of God which is tormenting him. What therefore do I want God to do? To hate him, so that he could feel the relief of self-justification? To bow down to him, so that he could have his arrogance and conceit confirmed?
The truth is that if one of my "loved ones" went to hell, he would not actually be a "loved one", because he would have nothing but hatred for me as a believer. He would be unrecognisable as the person who once was my loved one, before he turned his life over to evil. He wouldn't even really be the same person. There would be no possibility of a relationship there. The person who was my loved one actually no longer really exists. What still exists is a stranger, who has nothing but contempt for everything I am, everything I believe, everything I love. He loathes me as much as he loathes God. He has brought hell on himself. In fact, the heaven God has won for him on the cross, is hell.
If he died a true "loved one" - in other words, he was truly a person of love - then he would not be burning in hell, because "whoever lives in love, lives in God and God lives in him" (1 John 4:16). How could the reality of God be a torment to someone who has said 'yes' to His love, irrespective of his failure to tick the right religious boxes? It cannot be.
This whole issue has been confused and obscured by the curse of religious schemes of salvation. We need to look at it from the standpoint of reality: the reality of what people actually are, in terms of their allegiance to good or evil.
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
This is how I see it...
God is love. He is not half-love, or 'love' only to believers. There is no part of Him which is not love. His justice is based on His love; in fact, His justice is His love, because justice is love, and love is just.
He desires all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and He does not change. Therefore His desire for the salvation of all people endures forever.
If someone is eternally damned, he or she is eternally loved by God. Yes! It is actually love which damns that person. That person must therefore be unrepetantly evil.
An all knowing, all powerful, all loving being creates a situation in which some of those it loves will suffer.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
An all knowing, all powerful, all loving being creates a situation in which some of those it loves will suffer.
They will suffer because they reject God's love (nothing to do with rejecting religion, by the way). The God of love cannot therefore be blamed for that.
I can't see how love can actually exist and operate within a robotic universe. Can you?
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
An all knowing, all powerful, all loving being creates a situation in which some of those it loves will suffer.
Some?
I would say 'most' at one time or another.
But ordinary suffering is part of life - pain and death are necessary. Evolution was necessary - in order to give choice, not dictatorship.
The thing which is totally unnecessary is eternal suffering - I can't think that an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God would subject even the most evil of creatures to that.
So I'm a universalist too.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
An all knowing, all powerful, all loving being creates a situation in which some of those it loves will suffer.
They will suffer because they reject God's love (nothing to do with rejecting religion, by the way). The God of love cannot therefore be blamed for that.
Sure can. One who creates the game, rules and players is responsible for the outcome.
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I can't see how love can actually exist and operate within a robotic universe. Can you?
There are options other than God or nothing. But actually I could believe in a purely mechanistic universe.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
There's nothing robotic about a Godless universe. That's just (tautology alert) inadequate projection.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
The thing which is totally unnecessary is eternal suffering - I can't think that an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God would subject even the most evil of creatures to that.
True. An all knowing, all powerful and all loving God would not subject anyone to that. But an evil creature might subject himself to it, due to his hatred and rejection of the love that God eternally extends to him. Is God to be blamed for that? Of course not.
quote:
So I'm a universalist too.
And, in one sense, I am too. God has saved all people, because Jesus Christ took the punishment for all - not subjectively, but objectively. The trouble is though, that 'salvation' operates on God's terms, not on man's terms. So what happens to the arrogant person who despises the Almighty and has nothing but contempt for His love and for those who worship and trust Him? Will this reality of salvation be a joy to that person? Or will it be a torment? The answer is obvious.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
One who creates the game, rules and players is responsible for the outcome.
Only on the assumption that none of the players have been created as morally responsible beings.
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I'm not sure that invoking your mother does any work here other than making the general horror of hell more vividly present now.
That is indeed my point. That there are people who are not moved thereby, or who find it a rhetorical flourish, is frightening.
quote:
One would hope that in the afterlife our capacity to love would extend past our blood relations, and that all who do not make it into heaven have a similar standing before the eyes of the communion of saints.
No question. My issue is not having my love expanded, but contracted.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
moonlitdoor
Shipmate
# 11707
|
Posted
There are a couple of things this makes me think of, though neither is really an answer.
The first is that I suppose by sanctification or theosis or whatever one likes to call it, what seems right to God will seem right to us. Of course that only gets you so far, ie to the question of whether and if so why hell seems right to God.
The other is to wonder how the saints already in heaven can rejoice despite the suffering on earth. After all, that definitely exists. Probably it doesn't stop me enjoying life because I don't care enough about it, but I expect they do care enough. Maybe the fact that it is only temporary is the reason.
--------------------
We've evolved to being strange monkeys, but in the next life he'll help us be something more worthwhile - Gwai
Posts: 2210 | From: london | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
One who creates the game, rules and players is responsible for the outcome.
Only on the assumption that none of the players have been created as morally responsible beings.
No. This is not a sound conclusion.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
No. This is not a sound conclusion.
And why would that be?
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
The thing which is totally unnecessary is eternal suffering - I can't think that an all knowing, all powerful, all loving God would subject even the most evil of creatures to that.
True. An all knowing, all powerful and all loving God would not subject anyone to that. But an evil creature might subject himself to it, due to his hatred and rejection of the love that God eternally extends to him. Is God to be blamed for that? Of course not.
No, but S/he could let them go to nothingness, non-existence rather than eternal torment.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
No. This is not a sound conclusion.
And why would that be?
An omniscient, omnipotent being creating a situation where it knows that some will suffer.
--------------------
I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
Tangential, but related in my twisty mind, I heard of some well known US Evangelical recently, possibly said to Rob Bell, who had sat his son down at an impressionable age and told him that he would never love him as much as he loved Jesus.
What an insane lie.
That's how it's related.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
So all mousethief has to do to get his mother into heaven is ask? Piece of cake. There you go mousethief.
Indeed. However, let's not forget either Christ's parable of the unjust judge or the mentioned example of St Monica and St Augustine. Properly asking God for something is not accomplished by a brief flicker of thought with no further engagement. People can spend hours furiously typing bitter complaints about the injustice of hell, and write poetically about their love for others to illustrate it. Is that same fire found in their prayers to God though, I wonder?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
That is indeed my point. That there are people who are not moved thereby, or who find it a rhetorical flourish, is frightening. … No question. My issue is not having my love expanded, but contracted.
Well, you have just agreed that it is a kind of rhetorical flourish. And if somebody's love is is already sufficiently expanded, then it is not perhaps a particularly meaningful flourish. As for me, I still love my kin more than my neighbour, so it is a flourish that works for me… Anyway, I wonder what you think of my line of argument above?
--------------------
They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
|
Posted
lilBuddha - God knew ALL would suffer. But not pre-cognitively of course.
--------------------
Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
|
Posted
quote:
originally posted by Mousethief:
The idea of anybody I love being in Hell makes eternity seem like a horrible prospect. "You'll get over it, you'll be so happy in God's presence" seems pretty empty. I can't imagine being happy knowing my mother (say) was in unremitting screaming agony for all eternity. It seems downright monstrous to think I can "get over" that and just be happy. It makes God seem to have less compassion than I do.
Until we actually experience the beatific vision we will have no idea what experiencing the beatific vision will be like and that assumes we experience the beatific vision. In other words, we have no idea how we will react to being in heaven without our loved ones if we make it to heaven and our loved ones do not. Jesus did say that being his disciple means loving Him more than and even hating our loved ones (Matt. 10:37, Lk. 14:26).
quote:
originally posted by Evensong:
The idea of eternal torture in Hell is so at odds with the love, mercy and forgiveness as revealed in Christ that I haven't the faintest idea how to reconcile the two. I'm not sure its even possible.
And yet all the evidence for eternal conscious torment (such as their is) comes primarily from Jesus. Universalism is a possibility. We should pray for the souls of all the departed. We should hope for the salvation of all souls. However, eternal damnation is easily reconcilable with the Jesus actually presented in the gospels.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
blackbeard
Ship's Pirate
# 10848
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Thanks Evensong. A quick look at the summary saved me from having to wade through the original link, which I would have found a tad infuriating.
I think ... I will leave it at that. This is, after all, Purgatory board and not Hell board, so I can't say what I really think.
Oh GO ON. Be brave. Just don't direct it at Mere Nick, direct it at the theology.
I actually just skimmed the video very briefly (it was an hour for flips sake!)
I think even a brief skim would have been beyond my patience. Maybe I'm unduly sensitised to this topic.
Anyway. Theology. My take on theology, anyway.
Part A. We have been told that:
God is love;
God is just;
God is merciful.
Now there is no way that a human judge can combine all these attributes, nor can we understand how he might do so. At some point, depending on the nature of the case, justice might over-ride mercy (or possibly vice versa); he cannot be completely just, completely merciful and completely loving in all cases.
But that's a human judge, limited by the legal system he finds himself in, and by the power of even the most formidable human intellect.
But God is not limited either by the system or by human intellect, so He can be loving, merciful and just all at once. How He might do so we cannot understand; God is smarter than we are.
We can, and will, speculate, but it's just speculation.
Seems pretty obvious; would be nice if more theologians had the humility to recognise the limitations of their human intellect.
Part B.
Look at the Bible; you will find statements to the effect that:
a. wicked sinners go to Hell;
b. unbelievers go to Hell;
c. it may be a long and rocky road but eventually, everybody will be saved.
(Find 'em for yourself.)
Now if you regard the Bible as definitive, then this seems to be a problem, since by human intellect these statements are mutually contradictory.
Answer to the problem is in Romans 11 33-36 though we shouldn't need chapter and verse as it's already obvious. God is smarter than we are.
So much of what is written about whether certain individuals go to heaven or Hell is ... not well informed. So I am not convinced that any of our loved ones will finish up in Hell. And possibly, not anyone else. I don't know of course, but I am convinced that what happens will be just, and loving, and merciful, in a way we cannot at present fully understand. So, problem goes away (isn't it marvellous!)
If I am wrong - why?
[ 17. November 2013, 17:51: Message edited by: blackbeard ]
Posts: 823 | From: Hampshire, UK | Registered: Dec 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
No, but S/he could let them go to nothingness, non-existence rather than eternal torment.
But what if hell is a form of purgatory, from which it is possible to escape? If God snuffed people out of existence, then they would not have the opportunity to repent. And given that God "desires all people to be saved" and given that He does not change, then it follows that He opens the door to all people forever. I can't see how a person's free will can operate and be respected if they have been deprived, not only of consciousness, but also of existence!
So, on that basis, annihilationism makes no sense whatsoever.
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
An omniscient, omnipotent being creating a situation where it knows that some will suffer.
But the knowledge of something depends on its existence.
How could God know that some people will suffer, if the suffering of those people never happens?
--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
Printer-friendly view
