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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: How can I enjoy heaven when my loved ones are in Hell?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha
An omniscient, omnipotent being creating a situation where it knows that some will suffer.
But the knowledge of something depends on its existence.
How could God know that some people will suffer, if the suffering of those people never happens?
You are arguing inherent omniscience in place of total omniscience. ISTM, this is just a Get out of Jail Free card.
quote:
Originally posted by blackbeard:
Now there is no way that a human judge can combine all these attributes, nor can we understand how he might do so.
You are saying God is ineffable. Quite to the contrary, if he exists, I have several f for him.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I tend to agree with the last sentence of Mousethief's original post.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
IngoB:
My response to your line of reasoning is that the "justice" you describe is the justice of V-Ger in the first Star Trek movie. Obey me or else. it is the justice of a tyrant.
ETA: The justice of scripture is ending the oppression of the oppressed. (Luke 4:18, quoting Isaiah 61:1). Not so much smiting those who don't belong to the right church.
[ 17. November 2013, 19:27: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
I am afraid I have very little answers to offer but the silence of Alyosha Karamazov. I have a hard time doubting Starets Zosima's image of hell*, but I have little to say in God's defense.
![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif)
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*Which can be found here - press [ctrl+F], type 359 and press enter in order to find it.
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
No, but S/he could let them go to nothingness, non-existence rather than eternal torment.
But what if hell is a form of purgatory, from which it is possible to escape? If God snuffed people out of existence, then they would not have the opportunity to repent. And given that God "desires all people to be saved" and given that He does not change, then it follows that He opens the door to all people forever. I can't see how a person's free will can operate and be respected if they have been deprived, not only of consciousness, but also of existence!
So, on that basis, annihilationism makes no sense whatsoever.
Not if that is what they choose over being with God.
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Mere Nick
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# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Evensong:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
MT,
I've begun reading this guy's book which is probably the most exhaustive study ever done on what the bible teaches about the end of the wicked. It appears this video serves to sum up what he has found thus far.
Maybe you will find it useful.
Curious. Thanks for posting. Summary here if anyone else is interested.
What are the counter arguments and objections to his ideas?
I've ordered the third edition of his book. It is my understanding that he has updated it for the parts of the Dead Sea scrolls that has been released since his early editions and also to include disagreements and his response.
They've even made an indy film about him that appears to receive good reviews.
The building where my congregation meets has the same sign out front of where his congregation meets, so I'm particularly interested.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Mr. Fudge lost me in his opening line, saying "We know that none of us in this room will have this problem, so we can look at the issue" or words to that effect.
He is certain that he has it right, and knows what God's judgment of him will be, that he can afford to be flippant about those who go to Hell.
Not much help there then...except to make me think unkind thoughts. 'Nuff said.
I caught that, too, and suspect he is being more than a bit tongue in cheek given his overall demeanor in the video and in his writings.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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Aravis
Shipmate
# 13824
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Posted
Going back to the example in the OP, doesn't the book of Acts generally refer to people being saved and baptised along with their households? It seems that conversion to Christianity was a group decision rather than an individual decision then. In the 20th century various missionaries have also found people wanting to convert as a group. As far as I remember, though I'd have to recheck the books, examples include Caroline Stickley in the Philippines ("Broken Snare") and Fr. Vincent Donovan among the Masai ("Christianity Rediscovered").
Posts: 689 | From: S Wales | Registered: Jun 2008
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Aravis:
Going back to the example in the OP, doesn't the book of Acts generally refer to people being saved and baptised along with their households? It seems that conversion to Christianity was a group decision rather than an individual decision then. In the 20th century various missionaries have also found people wanting to convert as a group. As far as I remember, though I'd have to recheck the books, examples include Caroline Stickley in the Philippines ("Broken Snare") and Fr. Vincent Donovan among the Masai ("Christianity Rediscovered").
It appears to me to not be a general thing but on certain occasions. Sometimes an individual, sometimes the family.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
My response to your line of reasoning is that the "justice" you describe is the justice of V-Ger in the first Star Trek movie. Obey me or else. it is the justice of a tyrant.
I did not argue much about the justice of God. I talked mostly about our own role in the salvation of our loved ones, and how that relates to our fear of seeing them doomed. This, I take it then, did not mean much to you?
Tyranny is defined by equality, for if we accuse the tyrant we do so by asking "Are you not but a man, one of us?" Well, are you going to ask God that?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
ETA: The justice of scripture is ending the oppression of the oppressed. (Luke 4:18, quoting Isaiah 61:1). Not so much smiting those who don't belong to the right church.
I'm not sure how "not belonging to the right church" has come into play now? It is not something that I have commented on here at all.
As for Isaiah, I suggest you read on a little, as that verse gets expounded in what follows. Read at least till chapter 63...
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB
Tyranny is defined by equality, for if we accuse the tyrant we do so by asking "Are you not but a man, one of us?" Well, are you going to ask God that?
If I thought God was a tyrant then I would have no hesitation asking Him why He expects me to love Him with all my heart, mind, soul and strength when He operates on the basis of an understanding of justice far removed from what any normal, sane person associates with the concept.
When it states in Scripture that God is a God of justice (Isaiah 30:18), that must actually mean something to those to whom it is written. In other words, God acknowledges that the human mind has the capacity to understand the concept of justice. The morally insane ideas of justice that prevail in much of the Christian Church have no relation to how justice operates in real life in civilised societies. We don't throw people alive into incinerators because they have a few wrong thoughts in their minds, or they failed to conform to the 'correct' religious institution. We don't torture people mercilessly because they were born with moral imperfection.
If that is what God's justice is like, then I want nothing to do with such a God, because that God is not the true God, but rather Satan masquerading as God. Anyone with any intelligence can see that.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
Anyone with any intelligence can see that.
I hear the foolishness of God is wiser than men.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
I did not argue much about the justice of God. I talked mostly about our own role in the salvation of our loved ones, and how that relates to our fear of seeing them doomed. This, I take it then, did not mean much to you?
What should it mean? That if my loved ones are among the damned, it's because I didn't hit on them hard enough to convert? Talk about blaming the victim.
quote:
Tyranny is defined by equality, for if we accuse the tyrant we do so by asking "Are you not but a man, one of us?"
Bullshit. There are lots of situations in which one person has authority over another, but is not a tyrant.
quote:
I'm not sure how "not belonging to the right church" has come into play now? It is not something that I have commented on here at all.
Do you disavow all you have ever said about the Catholic Church, now that you're on this thread?
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
Well, you have just agreed that it is a kind of rhetorical flourish.
No. No, I didn't.
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Jesus did say that being his disciple means loving Him more than and even hating our loved ones (Matt. 10:37, Lk. 14:26).
So would you say Christians are released from all ten Commandments, or just this one?
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
And yet all the evidence for eternal conscious torment (such as their is) comes primarily from Jesus. Universalism is a possibility. We should pray for the souls of all the departed. We should hope for the salvation of all souls. However, eternal damnation is easily reconcilable with the Jesus actually presented in the gospels.
In Matthew 10:28, destroying both body and soul?
What part of destroy doesn't mean destroy? Just askin'.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In Matthew 10:28, destroying both body and soul?
What part of destroy doesn't mean destroy? Just askin'.
I take it you're positing this as an argument for annihilation. But on the other hand he also talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth, and their worm is not destroyed and their fire is not quenched. Which definitely sounds like eternal suffering.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
When it states in Scripture that God is a God of justice (Isaiah 30:18), that must actually mean something to those to whom it is written.
Have you read Isaiah 30? It's not like this isn't getting spelled out.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What should it mean? That if my loved ones are among the damned, it's because I didn't hit on them hard enough to convert? Talk about blaming the victim.
Where did I say anything about hitting hard on them to convert them? Not that I see evil in converting someone to Christianity, but that was simply not what I said. What I did say is that you should pray insistently to God about the salvation of your loved ones, if you want to see them saved.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There are lots of situations in which one person has authority over another, but is not a tyrant.
Indeed. However, that has nothing to do with the point I made. My point was that the accusation of tyranny against (my version of) God requires some concept of equality with God. Tyranny is wielding more power than is due to one (in modern usage: against the will of those lorded over). How much power is due to God, and are we to set our will against His?
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Do you disavow all you have ever said about the Catholic Church, now that you're on this thread?
No, and neither do I have to. I'm confident that you cannot find any post of mine where I have claimed that without membership in the RCC salvation is impossible.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
No. No, I didn't.
You explicitly agreed to my assessment "I'm not sure that invoking your mother does any work here other than making the general horror of hell more vividly present now." which describes a rhetorical flourish.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82
I hear the foolishness of God is wiser than men
Good. That means that I don't have to pay any attention to anything you say, because I can conveniently plead "the foolishness of God" to dismiss it without having to put in any effort to produce a single argument.
Isn't Christianity fun, when we can (ab)use God to get out of having to think?
![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
you should pray insistently to God about the salvation of your loved ones, if you want to see them saved.
I pray regularly for those close to me, and for others, that they will be saved - I cannot do otherwise.
At the same time, I am aware that:-
1. Praying for someone's salvation does not make sense from either a Calvinist or an Arminian point of view.
2. The practice is neither exemplified nor enjoined in the NT; Romans 10:1 probably comes closest, though Paul seems to be referring to the nation rather than to individuals.
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...you should pray insistently to God about the salvation of your loved ones, if you want to see them saved.
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
This, though, warrants a reply. IngoB, how can you imagine any kind of justice comes into a scheme in which a man facing trial is acquitted purely on the basis that his brother pleads for it?
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این نیز بگذرد
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
Yep - you have hit the nail on the head.
All I have is hope, but I can not let go of that hope.
So I cling to what's left of my faith by my fingertips.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Which introduces the idea of tradition, of course, Kaplan ...
If we only did what we could explicitly back up by a NT text we wouldn't do an awful lot of what we do do, it seems to me ...
And that applies right across the board.
It also undermines the claims of those who claim to be more biblical than anybody else. I'm not saying you're claiming that, of course.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
This, though, warrants a reply. IngoB, how can you imagine any kind of justice comes into a scheme in which a man facing trial is acquitted purely on the basis that his brother pleads for it?
Funny, but only the other day I was wondering where all the atheists had got to. Nice to see one popping up with a few amusing comments to chuckle at.
To think that you, dear Yorick, talk about dissonance, and then you proceed to assume that we all know what the concept of 'justice' means, as if such an idea has any meaning at all in a world view in which we are all nothing more than slabs of meat. It's almost as clever as Zach's 'foolishness' world view, in which intelligence is not allowed (because God made a mistake creating brains).
Keep up the good work, mate. It cheers me up no end...
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
You don't actually want to have a stab at an answer then? Oh, okay, I understand.
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این نیز بگذرد
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick
You don't actually want to have a stab at an answer then? Oh, okay, I understand.
Naughty naughty. You haven't bothered to read the thread.
My stab at an answer.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
I just skimmed through all that again, but couldn't easily discern the bit where you explain how it amounts to justice when petitional prayer from a partial supplicant changes your god's mind about sending someone to hell or not. I really should read through it and try harder, but on the other hand there's some other even more pointless stuff for me to be doing.
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82
I hear the foolishness of God is wiser than men
Good. That means that I don't have to pay any attention to anything you say, because I can conveniently plead "the foolishness of God" to dismiss it without having to put in any effort to produce a single argument.
Isn't Christianity fun, when we can (ab)use God to get out of having to think?
Abuse God? All I did was quote the Bible.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Adeodatus
Shipmate
# 4992
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Posted
quote:
Yorick asked about:
... how it amounts to justice when petitional prayer from a partial supplicant changes your god's mind about sending someone to hell or not...
It doesn't. It amounts to mercy. It's a pity that God's mercy doesn't get talked about as much as his justice. I for one am very glad that we have a God who isn't just.
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"What is broken, repair with gold."
Posts: 9779 | From: Manchester | Registered: Sep 2003
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
...you should pray insistently to God about the salvation of your loved ones, if you want to see them saved.
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
This, though, warrants a reply. IngoB, how can you imagine any kind of justice comes into a scheme in which a man facing trial is acquitted purely on the basis that his brother pleads for it?
Can you imagine a kind of justice in which the judge commutes the sentence just because the accused feels sorry for his offenses?
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82
Abuse God? All I did was quote the Bible.
"Then he went out and hanged himself."
"Go thou and do likewise." ![[Eek!]](eek.gif)
See, I can (mis)quote the Bible as well.
Like I said... great fun! Saves having to bother about thinking and context, doesn't it?
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
IngoB, how can you imagine any kind of justice comes into a scheme in which a man facing trial is acquitted purely on the basis that his brother pleads for it?
Considered as a rule, this obviously establishes a form of justice. It consequently would be unjust if God honoured mousethief's prayer for his mother, but not mine for my mother (all else equal). Given God's promises on the matter, this would not be giving everybody their due.
Our laws and courts are one particular form of justice, but there is no particular reason why God's justice should follow those in structure closely. In fact, the justice of the Christian God is very clearly built around "representation in and through relationship", in a manner that is quite alien to our current justice system. Or at least I see no place for Christ as Redeemer of mankind in the workings of our courts. If at all, this kind of Divine justice resembles more something that disrupts the regular workings of our courts, i.e., it is like an amnesty. Yet in the context of the Divine it is regular justice, not disruption, for of course the same logic had us doomed in Adam initially, and governed the interactions of God with other human representatives throughout history, like Abraham.
[ 18. November 2013, 12:32: Message edited by: IngoB ]
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
Okay, so it's not justice, or at least in any meaningful sense. It's more like amnesty. But wait. An amnesty that's guaranteed when somebody petitions for it on someone else's behalf? Um, no that won't do either, will it?
I can see a sort of alluring sense in the, 'seek, and ye shall be Forgiven' type idea, but that's a long way from, 'seek amnesty for some other perp and it shall be granted them, regardless'. What a fucked up mess is this religioning lark.
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این نیز بگذرد
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
No, but S/he could let them go to nothingness, non-existence rather than eternal torment.
But what if hell is a form of purgatory, from which it is possible to escape? If God snuffed people out of existence, then they would not have the opportunity to repent. And given that God "desires all people to be saved" and given that He does not change, then it follows that He opens the door to all people forever. I can't see how a person's free will can operate and be respected if they have been deprived, not only of consciousness, but also of existence!
So, on that basis, annihilationism makes no sense whatsoever.
So what is the crime which causes a person to be in eternal torment until such time as God allows them into heaven?
Not accepting God's love?
What if the reason people can't do this is that they are so damaged that they can't?
Why couldn't God heal every one of them, on entry to eternity, to be able to accept the offered love? Voila, Hell is empty! (Or is healing removing free will?)
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
I don't believe that God makes anyone accept His love. I do believe that He can heal people to allow them to choose for themselves whether or not to accept it.
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My beard is a testament to my masculinity and virility, and demonstrates that I am a real man. Trouble is, bits of quiche sometimes get caught in it.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't believe that God makes anyone accept His love. I do believe that He can heal people to allow them to choose for themselves whether or not to accept it.
When? In this life?
So why doesn't S/he get on and do it - for everyone?
I can see it happening after death - as all veils to seeing God's love are then removed. But not in this life.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Can you imagine a kind of justice in which the judge commutes the sentence just because the accused feels sorry for his offenses?
Sounds awfully similar to the way our courts work. A guilty plea will result in a shorter sentence, and so will demonstrating remorse for ones crimes.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
Yorick, this is a typical definition of justice (from my Mac's dictionary):
justice
1 [mass noun] just behaviour or treatment: a concern for justice, peace, and genuine respect for people.
• the quality of being fair and reasonable: the justice of his case.
• the administration of the law or authority in maintaining this: a tragic miscarriage of justice.
The rule I mentioned clearly establishes a form of justice in all these aspects. It is not the justice of our criminal courts, but that simply is not the only possible system of justice. My point about the sacrifice of Christ was not that it is a form of amnesty, but that looked at from the point of view of our criminal court justice that is the closest match. Yet as stated, actually Divine justice simply follows a different pattern according to which Christ's sacrifice is not an exception (as amnesty is for criminal courts) but rather a preeminent instantiation of the rule.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie
So what is the crime which causes a person to be in eternal torment until such time as God allows them into heaven?
I have absolutely no idea about that, considering that this is not what I said. You've erected a straw man. I can't imagine what crime or sin a person could commit that would leave them in eternal torment until such time as God allows them into heaven.
This sounds like the ball is in God's court, but, as I have said many times, the ball is not in God's court, but in man's.
But in answer to the question that you should have asked in response to my previous post: the sin that causes a person to remain in hell and to refuse to enter through the open door into heaven is pride. "No flesh shall glory in my presence", which is really very logical. Conceited attention seekers and wannabe gods attempt to draw the faithful away from the only source of goodness and blessing. Therefore there is no place for such usurpers in the presence of God.
quote:
Not accepting God's love?
What if the reason people can't do this is that they are so damaged that they can't
That is a lie. Anyone in genuine need can receive God's grace. Revelation 21:6 - "I will give of the fountain of the water of life freely to him who thirsts".
quote:
Why couldn't God heal every one of them, on entry to eternity, to be able to accept the offered love? Voila, Hell is empty! (Or is healing removing free will?)
If God does this, then why not heal everyone in this life, so that we no longer have to put up with evil? If God acts as you think he does, then he must be extremely twisted. If God could eradicate all evil by the mere click of his fingers, then the fact that he does not do so in this life proves that he is perverse. And therefore not the true God, but a figment of your imagination.
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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
Posts: 3625 | From: South Coast of England | Registered: Sep 2009
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
I don't believe that God makes anyone accept His love. I do believe that He can heal people to allow them to choose for themselves whether or not to accept it.
When? In this life?
So why doesn't S/he get on and do it - for everyone?
I can see it happening after death - as all veils to seeing God's love are then removed. But not in this life.
I think we've talked about this before, and I think I agreed with you then, as here. I am sure that there are people who are so damaged, that they cannot give or receive love.
In fact, it's notorious in psychotherapy, that showing care or solicitude to some clients is quite dangerous, as they just cannot tolerate it, and may act out very badly.
Similarly, some very depressed people are in great danger when they have noticed some care shown towards them - you have to be wary then of suicide.
I don't therefore see how in this life-time, these obstacles are to be overcome, except possibly by medication.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
There are lots of situations in which one person has authority over another, but is not a tyrant.
Indeed. However, that has nothing to do with the point I made. My point was that the accusation of tyranny against (my version of) God requires some concept of equality with God.
No. You say what I said has nothing to do with what you said, then immediately contradict what I said. One can say someone is a tyrant without claiming equality to them. Because someone can be in a position of authority without being a tyrant. Superiority <> Tyrant.
quote:
Tyranny is wielding more power than is due to one (in modern usage: against the will of those lorded over).
Well, the "will" thing seems gratuitous.
quote:
How much power is due to God, and are we to set our will against His?
It's not about the amount of power but how it's used. He gave us intelligence and compassion and commanded us to use them. If I say your conception of God is problematic, I am not setting my will against His, but against yours.
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
You explicitly agreed to my assessment "I'm not sure that invoking your mother does any work here other than making the general horror of hell more vividly present now." which describes a rhetorical flourish.
Then you don't know what "rhetorical flourish" means.
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
Do you never tire of abusing people thus?
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It's a pity that God's mercy doesn't get talked about as much as his justice. I for one am very glad that we have a God who isn't just.
This, definitely.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Adeodatus:
It's a pity that God's mercy doesn't get talked about as much as his justice. I for one am very glad that we have a God who isn't just.
This, definitely.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. I hardly know any Christians, outside of yahoos shouting on street corners and assorted internet nutters, that believe Hell is much of a threat.
[ 18. November 2013, 16:19: Message edited by: Zach82 ]
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yorick
Infinite Jester
# 12169
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Posted
quote:
Originally dumped by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
Do you never tire of abusing people thus?
Abusing people? Jeez, that term seems to have lost a lot of value. But let's not start derailing this thread with lots of silly chit-chat about how I like abusing people and stick to the fucking point shall we?
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این نیز بگذرد
Posts: 7574 | From: Natural Sources | Registered: Dec 2006
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
One can say someone is a tyrant without claiming equality to them. Because someone can be in a position of authority without being a tyrant. Superiority <> Tyrant.
A tyrant is an absolute ruler unconstrained by law or constitution. We generally assume that a tyrant will do nasty things, but that's really more a reflection of human nature ("power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely") and is actually absent from the historically original meaning. You are clearly intending a moral negative in calling (my kind of) God a tyrant. If this is on account of being an absolute ruler as such, then you need a reason for that critique. Among people such reason is invariably based on the essential equality of people, i.e., there is no good reason why one human should have absolute rule over all other humans. Extending this kind of sentiment to God hence clearly involves some kind of assumption of equality. If however you say so not because God is an absolute ruler as such, but because the way He uses that power is oppressive or cruel in your opinion, then you invoke a different kind of equality. For then you say that what you consider as a wrong action for yourself and other humans is also a wrong action for God. I consider both "equalities" to be mistaken. Neither can one consider human and Divine power to be equal, nor is there any equality in human and Divine moral calculus. Indeed, I do not believe that God is a moral agent, for it would require something greater than God holding Him to account, and there is no greater thing than God.
It does not help you to replace "equality" by "superiority", since that still implies a measurement by human standards. If I say that my line manager has powers that I do not have, then I do not mean to say that his powers are unimaginable to my being. I could be in the position of my line manager, I cannot possibly be in the position of God.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
It's not about the amount of power but how it's used. He gave us intelligence and compassion and commanded us to use them. If I say your conception of God is problematic, I am not setting my will against His, but against yours.
But you are critiquing my conception of God by saying that then God would be abusive, not that I would be abusive. Hence your critique simply operates outside of the realm of human intelligence and compassion, and what God commanded about them. You are saying that God cannot be as I say, because you know what God must do. I do not believe that you have any means or rights to say what God must do. At most you can try to understand and explain what God Himself said He will do. But I am doing just the same. You may think that I am mistaken, and you can try to show so by using what God Himself said about these things. But your current line of attack simply fails.
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Then you don't know what "rhetorical flourish" means.
Sure I do. What you wrote was a rhetorical ("for persuasive effect rather than content") flourish ("dramatic embellishment"). That's not a value judgement - rhetoric can be used to improve communication, and I've already said that this one worked for me.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mere Nick:
In Matthew 10:28, destroying both body and soul?
What part of destroy doesn't mean destroy? Just askin'.
I take it you're positing this as an argument for annihilation. But on the other hand he also talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth, and their worm is not destroyed and their fire is not quenched. Which definitely sounds like eternal suffering.
ok. I will do a little digging on these tonight and respond. In the meantime, is it the general orthodox belief that the lost are tossed into the gaping maw of hell in order to suffer the conscious, unending torments of damnation throughout all eternity?
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
Posts: 2797 | From: West Carolina | Registered: Sep 2006
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
quote:
Originally dumped by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
Do you never tire of abusing people thus?
Abusing people? Jeez, that term seems to have lost a lot of value. But let's not start derailing this thread with lots of silly chit-chat about how I like abusing people and stick to the fucking point shall we?
Yorick
As I understand the OP and the following discussion (the fucking point as you so gracefully described it!)we are struggling to come to terms with something as yet unknown yet hoped for and all its attendant questions and fears...so sincere people of faith may well have some sort of dissonance going on, especially if their theology and/ or personality is not of the particularly "sewn up" variety.
Quite frankly, a little more compassion for that struggle rather than gloating might make for a better debate between the theists and the secular humanists.
For me, I have to trust that the God who I know as love will cover all with his love. And no. I could not be happy in an afterlife where I know others are burning in hell. Thank God that Love wins. (Yes I have read the book and was surprised at how much I got from it)
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"It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
Posts: 693 | From: UK/ Kenya | Registered: Apr 2013
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by IngoB:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
One can say someone is a tyrant without claiming equality to them. Because someone can be in a position of authority without being a tyrant. Superiority <> Tyrant.
A tyrant is an absolute ruler unconstrained by law or constitution. We generally assume that a tyrant will do nasty things, but that's really more a reflection of human nature ("power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely") and is actually absent from the historically original meaning.
Actually the term was originally used to designate an absolute ruler who acquired power through some other means than inheritance. In other words, if you're king because your father was king you're not a "tyrant" in the original Greek sense of the term, though you can behave "tyrannically" in the modern sense of the term. As IngoB notes, it was a period of particularly vicious tyrants in the fifth and fourth centuries BCE that gave the term its modern associations with oppressive rule.
Of course, even in this sense God is a tyrant, since He holds his powers without inheriting them from a progenitor.
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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IngoB
Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
quote:
Originally dumped by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Yorick:
As I was passing by, I couldn't resist a peep at another thread in which a bunch of nice intelligent theists struggle with their nonsensical human theories about the afterlife. It seems probable to me that many of you have the same gut instinct as me about it (it's all just retrofit bullshit, really) but are trying to make it work because you really want the shebang to be true. The dissonance must be awful, poor things.
Do you never tire of abusing people thus?
Abusing people? Jeez, that term seems to have lost a lot of value. But let's not start derailing this thread with lots of silly chit-chat about how I like abusing people and stick to the fucking point shall we?
There is no point, fucking or otherwise, to be found in your paragraph. Rather it is all just about (re-)establishing your contempt for us. Or did you really intend it to serve a different purpose? Little did we realise that a deeper meaning was hidden among the abuse... Like there is in my writing here, for those who have eyes to see.
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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear
Posts: 12010 | From: Gone fishing | Registered: Oct 2004
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