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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Black Pete: tradition or racism?
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
I guess this discussion has reached the English-speaking world, and I wonder what you think of it. In three days, the Netherlands (and parts of Belgium and Germany) will be celebrating the children's party of Sinterklaas.
Sinterklaas was one of the models on which the Coca Cola Company based the Santa Claus figure. Sinterklaas arrives on his boat from Spain, rides on his white horse, and brings presents to the children, helped by his servants ... who are black.
The Black Pete tradition has been criticized before, but now Verene Shepherd from Jamaica, chair of United Nations' Working Group on people of African descent, said it was a "throwback to slavery". This lead to fierce discussions in the Netherlands.
My own opinion? I guess, to a degree Ms. Shepherd is right. Showing an entourage of only black servants like this is definitely a bit dodgy.
But on the other hand, I like Black Pete. They are funny, they are irreverend... they've always been my favourite Sinterklaas characters. And perhaps they were invented in an age where coloured people were seen more as an exotic curiosity than anything else.
I don't think that shouting "this is racist!" is going to help much. People will only dig their heels in. But I would like to find ways to move away a bit from the 'black servant' tradition. People have already been experimenting with Petes of all colours for example.
What do you think about cherished traditions that might raise our eyebrows a bit because of racism? (Or sexism, or homophobia...)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
This is an ancient tradition from nearer home. (Bacup, Lancashire)
" The dances they perform are actually Folk Dances and the custom of blackened faces may reflect a pagan or medieval background which was done to disguise the dancers from being recognised by evil spirits afterwards, it may also reflect mining connections.
The picture is by no means clear and tales have been related by word of mouth, however, the dances are supposed to have originated with moorish pirates (hence the costume). Some of these sailors are said to have settled in Cornwall and become employed in local mining. As mines and quarries opened in Lancashire in the 18th & 19th century a few Cornishmen came North bringing with them mining expertise. It is with these people that the dances were reputedly brought to this area. In particular two Cornishmen who came to work in Whitworth."
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Crœsos
Shipmate
# 238
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Posted
So if something is traditional it can't be racist?
Why is the "tradition/racism" question always presented as an "either/or"? Historically it's usually "both/and".
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Humani nil a me alienum puto
Posts: 10706 | From: Sardis, Lydia | Registered: May 2001
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
If they are right in your wiki link, about the Odin trappings, why not reach back to that tradition. Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
[ 02. December 2013, 19:22: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Boogie: This is an ancient tradition from nearer home. (Bacup, Lancashire)
This looks interesting. Do you think it is racist?
(I'm also reminded for the countless times I've played the euphonium for Sinterklaas in cold november. These musicians have it a lot better ![[Biased]](wink.gif) )
quote:
Crœsos: So if something is traditional it can't be racist?
That's not what I'm saying, and if I'm very honest, I have to admit that the Black Pete tradition probably is. When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Doublethink: Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
Yes, that would be interesting. Some groups have mostly been experimenting with Coloured Petes.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
I think they're supposed to be chimney sweeps, not black people.
Posts: 6976 | From: Southampton | Registered: Jul 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
Well, we have elves - you could merge the ideas and have him green. Essentially you are transitioning from black servant to magical being.
I would favour the raven solution as referencing part of the older tradition rather than a totally novel element.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
Posts: 19219 | From: Erehwon | Registered: Aug 2005
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If they are right in your wiki link, about the Odin trappings, why not reach back to that tradition. Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
You know, of course, that the realm of dwarves in Norse mythology is Svartalfheimr - "world of the black elves". It might be suggested that a myth of cunning, lying, cheating black dwarves is of itself racist, but that's countered with the charge of projecting modern sensibilities on ancient stories.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
daronmedway: I think they're supposed to be chimney sweeps, not black people.
Yes, this has been suggested at times. (They're not really chimney sweeps, but they climb down the chimney to bring the presents.) I'm not sure if people can get away with that, especially when the curly hair and the earrings make them look like a caricaturized black person.
BTW the Black Pete debate has reached Canada.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Doublethink:
If they are right in your wiki link, about the Odin trappings, why not reach back to that tradition. Have black Pete as a were-raven i.e. Dressed traditional doing the normal mischevious antics but wearing a raven carnival mask instead of blacking up. This, for example.
You know, of course, that the realm of dwarves in Norse mythology is Svartalfheimr - "world of the black elves". It might be suggested that a myth of cunning, lying, cheating black dwarves is of itself racist, but that's countered with the charge of projecting modern sensibilities on ancient stories.
Regardless of later influences, after contact with black peoples - it is difficult to see how that could have originally have been a story about race pre such contact.
And I imagine maybe pete pre contact with black people may not have been the racial stereotype he is now - that might have been taken into the character later. But I think it is unrealistic to believe that you can now have black human like characters nowadays, that are not seen through the heritage of various abuses. We can not turn back the clock and simply assert that people must not see it like that.
[ 02. December 2013, 20:11: Message edited by: Doublethink ]
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Kwesi
Shipmate
# 10274
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Posted
I guess we should all lighten-up!
Posts: 1641 | From: South Ofankor | Registered: Sep 2005
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Doublethink: But I think it is unrealistic to believe that you can now have black human like characters nowadays, that are not seen through the heritage of various abuses.
Exactly. Perhaps some characters didn't start out as racist stereotypes, but they give this impression in the present day. My solution would be to find playful ways to keep their essence, but that also destereotype them.
quote:
Kwesi: I guess we should all lighten-up!
Love the double meaning ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
[ 02. December 2013, 20:15: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
There seem to be multiple origin stories for the characters but a quick browse through Wikipedia says they and Saint Nicholas traditionally were supposed to live in Spain when they weren't visiting for the holidays. They are likely to represent Moors. At one time they were supposed to kidnap bad children and drag them back to Spain which says something about the Dutch experience with the Spanish empire as well.
I've seen some comments from Black people living in Holland who don't enjoy the stereotypes. While shouting "racism!" may or may not be effective, it's hard to see what else is going to make the tradition stop. The United States has some problematic traditions such as blackface Minstrel Shows and flying the Confederate flag that have encountered similar opposition. I do like the idea of changing them to another color; perhaps greens and things should be good for a while.
[ 03. December 2013, 04:21: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
You mean we shouldn't be sensitive the their insensitivity?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
We can be as sensitive or as insensitive as we like but I suspect that without shouting nothing much will change.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I know. My comment was more mild sarcasm. I do try to help people see, try to be gentle if they appear open. But it is just so frustrating at times.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I think they're supposed to be chimney sweeps, not black people.
From Wiki: "While in Schenkman's book the servant was nameless, Joseph Albert Alberdingk Thijm already made reference to a dialogue partner of Saint Nicholas with the name "Pieter-me-knecht" in a handwritten, unpublished text in 1850. Moreover, writing in 1884, Alberdingk Thijm remembered that in 1828, as a child, he had attended a Saint Nicholas celebration in the house of Dominico Arata, an Italian merchant and consul living in Amsterdam. On this occasion Saint Nicholas had been accompanied by "Pieter me Knecht ..., a frizzy haired Negro", who, rather than a rod, wore a large basket filled with presents. In 1859, Dutch newspaper De Tijd noticed that Saint Nicholas nowadays was often accompanied by "a Negro, who, under the name of Pieter, mijn knecht, is no less populair than the Holy Bishop himself"
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
Perhaps some characters didn't start out as racist stereotypes, but they give this impression in the present day. My solution would be to find playful ways to keep their essence, but that also destereotype them.
Yes. Our local coco-nutters could easily change their black to blue. Mind you, then they'd look exactly like smurfs.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Amos
Shipmate
# 44
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Posted
And lo! The origin of the Smurfs is uncovered: in essence they're blue golliwogs.
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At the end of the day we face our Maker alongside Jesus--ken
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
My own feeling on this is that my feelings on this aren't really very important. Ultimately it comes down to: how do black people feel about this? Particularly black people in the Netherlands? Bearing in mind that obviously black people are a large group and as such can have many different opinions. If someone asks a huge group of them, is there some kind of consensus? Does it piss them off? I'd imagine the answer is yes, but I don't know. Would they rather see this tradition disappear? If that is the case, it should go. Because people, and human experience, are more important than tradition - however fun white people may find that tradition.
[ 03. December 2013, 12:11: Message edited by: Liopleurodon ]
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
My own feeling on this is that my feelings on this aren't really very important. Ultimately it comes down to: how do black people feel about this? Particularly black people in the Netherlands? Bearing in mind that obviously black people are a large group and as such can have many different opinions. If someone asks a huge group of them, is there some kind of consensus? Does it piss them off? I'd imagine the answer is yes, but I don't know. Would they rather see this tradition disappear? If that is the case, it should go. Because people, and human experience, are more important than tradition - however fun white people may find that tradition.
That's always a problematic question to ask and answer. Is racism an absolute? Or is it culturally based? The experience of those of African descent in Spain or other parts of Southern Europe are entirely different than in the US and Britain, particularly in the former Moorish regions. Are those from other regions with a different cultural background guilty of trying to impose our views on others?
(Note--I'm not talking about the gollywog carictures... those were clearly drawn from American culture and simply transferred overseas.)
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Siegfried
Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Liopleurodon:
Bearing in mind that obviously black people are a large group...
The point is well made.
Just to say that when I first read this I read "obviously black" as the descriptor of a large group of people. Twice. I was about to draft a reply asking why only the obviously black (presumably rather than the subtly black) deserved an opinion. Then I worked out what you were saying.
I don't think it's a great idea but I suspect you would find some black people who would prefer to live and let live. There's likely to be a generational divide also, with younger generations being less prepared to put up with it.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In the Netherlands St Nicholas is said to have come by boat from Spain.His servants were Moors and were/are represented by people who 'blacked up'
In Bavaria St Nicholas is often accompanied by a little (white) boy called Knecht Ruprecht.In Austria,however, he is accompanied by a (black) devil called Krampus.It is a question of good and evil - light and shade.Nikolaus usually has Krampus in chains but sometimes warns children
that if they are not good Krampus will get a hold of them.Adults,however, often prefer the Krampus figure and will play tricks on one another,blaming Krampus.
How do we deal with the problem of good and evil in stories which have sometimes been around for centuries ?
What should we do about Mozart's opera the Magic Flute - a story about light and shade,black and white where the evil character is a 'Blackamoor' ?
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Liopleurodon
Mighty sea creature
# 4836
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Posted
Yes indeed. It's obvious that black people are a large group is what I meant. I don't really know how you'd go about getting opinions, practically speaking. But I do think that the most important thing here is how black people feel about it. White people can talk all day (and often do) about how offensive something should be when it isn't about us (and by "us" I'm referring to myself as a white person, not speculating about anyone else on the Ship, which is more diverse than that).
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Our God is an awesome God. Much better than that ridiculous God that Desert Bluffs has. - Welcome to Night Vale
Posts: 1921 | From: Lurking under the ship | Registered: Aug 2003
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
But are those the only options?
In the Netherlands, municipalities have an influence on the Sinterklaas celebrations. Usually on a Saturday in November, each municipality holds an Entrance of Sinterklaas celebration for the children, where he arrives on his boat, the local brass band plays, the mayor addresses him in a speech...
Some municipalities have already switched to Coloured Petes in these celebrations. If enough of them do this, these could become a normal part of the Sinterklaas feast.
quote:
Liopleurodon: Ultimately it comes down to: how do black people feel about this? Particularly black people in the Netherlands?
Yes, I agree that this is an important question. Some organizations of black people in the NL have already expressed their discomfort with the Black Pete tradition, and I think we should listen to them.
Interestingly, I understand that on Curaçao the Coloured Petes tradition has already become normal.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
When I said "shouting racism isn't going to help much", I was mainly focused on strategy.
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
Thinking about the historical record, I don't see that "pretty please would you mind considering that this might be racist" helps more.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
But are those the only options?
If you are an individual deciding whether to protest or not rather than a municipality with power to decide, then pretty much yes those are the options.
You say that municipalities have done changed things in some areas - presumably there were people who said that that sort of strong-armed, nanny-state interference was only going to entrench people in their positions.
However you spin it, in the end you have to choose between accepting that people are allowed to be racist if they want to, or that the state and/or protest groups have a legitimate right in interfering against the wishes of those people.
And I think those are the two main options. There's all sorts of befriending and education that can go alongside, but that's a complementary rather than an alternative option.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Forthview
Shipmate
# 12376
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Posted
In Spain and the Spanish speaking world the Three Kings arrive on the evening of 5th January and distribute presents and sweets to children.By tradition the Three Kings come from the East and one of them is always black.Now this is not a black servant,but rather a black king (or rather a European 'blacked up'). Is this racism ?
Posts: 3444 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Feb 2007
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Of course someone will object, and you have to take a view on how politically charged the environment is, but personally I've not including kingship in the list of negative black sterotypes. If the tradition is that one of the kings was black I'm all for it.
(Perhaps better still to get a black guy to be that king. Or to have a black guy whited up as one king and a white guy blacked up as another king. That would get them thinking.)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mdijon:
(Perhaps better still to get a black guy to be that king. Or to have a black guy whited up as one king and a white guy blacked up as another king. That would get them thinking.)
Interesting thought. Not certain it would work, but interesting. Not sure how I feel about it either. A blacked up white person is a red flag for me.
I like Anthony Hopkins. But every time I think of his portrayal of Othello, I want him to put the makeup back on so I can slap it off.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mdijon: You say that municipalities have done changed things in some areas - presumably there were people who said that that sort of strong-armed, nanny-state interference was only going to entrench people in their positions.
Oh yes, there were people who said this. But so far, the celebrations with Coloured Petes have mostly been received positively.
And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem.
A couple of years ago, I was working with organizations of small-scale farmers in Central America (mostly Honduras). They are working on organical farming techniques, organization, income generation... They are doing good work.
However, most of these organizations also have machismo ingrained in their culture. They don't allow women to partake in their decision-making structures, the money that comes from the activities from the cooperatives go to the men, land titles are only in the name of the man so that the widow loses out when he dies...
I could have gone to these organizations and shouted: "You're all a bunch of sexists!" but I really doubt that I would have achieved something in this way.
Instead, I gave them tools. Tools about how you can discuss agricultural activities and income distribution with men and women together, tools about how women can be included more into the organization...
I couldn't force them to use these tools of course, and neither would I want to. But it is my (measurable) experience that this approach can give very good returns.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I understand your point, LeRoc. However your Central American example is one of changing the underpinning of an entire culture whereas Black Piet is a small part of one celebration.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
I also think different rules apply for an outsider approaching a group suggesting they change their way of looking at the world where the idea may well be unfamiliar and certainly perceived as foreign, versus dealing with a particular example of racism from within a society, particularly if one is a member of the oppressed minority.
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem.
Funnily enough, that's how I feel about those who would become entrenched in their position when I shout about racism.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mdijon: Funnily enough, that's how I feel about those who would become entrenched in their position when I shout about racism.
What are you saying about me here? Do you want to continue this discussion in another place?
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
lilBuddha: I understand your point, LeRoc. However your Central American example is one of changing the underpinning of an entire culture whereas Black Piet is a small part of one celebration.
That's true. I just put it here as an illustration that shouting "This is racist/sexist/homophobe!" isn't always the most succesful strategy in dealing with a situation, even if this situation is racist/sexist/homophobe.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
Now you've lost me.
You said earlier that shouting at people might not achieve anything and simply make people get entrenched in their views.
Later you say that it's "your problem" if someone doesn't like "my way" of dealing with the issue.
I'm just saying I tend to take the latter attitude that you describe in the first instance with regard to the racists, and I suppose also wondering how you select between those two attitudes for different situations.
What's to take offense over?
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mdijon: I'm just saying I tend to take the latter attitude that you describe in the first instance with regard to the racists, and I suppose also wondering how you select between those two attitudes for different situations.
I'm having difficulties to parse your English. I don't know what "I tend to take the latter attitude that you describe in the first instance with regard to the racists" means.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
You describe two different attitudes in different posts.
a) "I don't think that shouting "this is racist!" is going to help much. People will only dig their heels in."
and
b) "And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem."
I'm saying I would personally adopt the latter option - i.e. b) - in the context of the OP where you were adopting a).
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I came back to England, having been brought up in South Africa, in 1970. My community here hardly knew the term 'racist' and were very ignorantly so. When I became a teacher in 1978 the staff room was full of people who made openly racist comments and jokes. They hurt. I am white British but have many black friends.
My tactic was to say nothing - but this was noticeable and soon people asked why and I told them (gently). The culture changed over time - not just due to me, but I'm sure I did my bit.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
mdijon: quote:
If the tradition is that one of the kings was black I'm all for it.
The tradition that one of the kings was African dates back to the Middle Ages. It has nothing to do with American golliwogs. So maybe all the places that have three white kings are guilty of racism and it should be compulsory to have a black king...?
If the Three Kings/Magi really existed, there is nothing inherently implausible in the idea that one of them was African. Some African kingdoms were quite rich, especially the ones involved in the frankincense trade.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Also I think this from mdijon: quote:
...different rules apply for an outsider approaching a group suggesting they change their way of looking at the world where the idea may well be unfamiliar and certainly perceived as foreign, versus dealing with a particular example of racism from within a society, particularly if one is a member of the oppressed minority.
identifies part of the problem. I notice the chair of the UN committee is from Jamaica, not a Netherlander herself, though she may be expressing discomfort felt by black Netherlanders.
And being accused of racism by anyone when you (think you) are innocently participating in a cherished folk tradition is upsetting. It happened to someone I knew at university, who got yelled at by an African student when in his North-West Morris gear. For people who value these traditions and don't see them as racist, it's very upsetting to meet someone who instantly condemns them for participating and doesn't give them a chance to explain that they are not imitating the Black and White Minstrels.
On the other hand, if Black Piet and the blackface Morris teams do upset black people, I think the traditions need to change. It sounds like it will be easier to do with Black Piet; you just need to change it slightly, so that St Nicholas's servants are not all the same colour. Northwest Morris teams will probably have to give up blacking their faces altogether.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mdijon: b) "And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem."
So what you mean is this is what you would say to racists? Fair enough. I'm still not sure when you said "those who would become entrenched in their position when I shout about racism" whether that included me, but I'll let it go for now.
quote:
Jane R: And being accused of racism by anyone when you (think you) are innocently participating in a cherished folk tradition is upsetting.
I don't think you can avoid getting caught up in this tradition if you're in the Netherlands this week, especially with children. The Black Petes are literally everywhere.
What I would do if I were living with children in the Netherlands, is that I'd try to open up the discussion in their school if they couldn't have something like Coloured Petes (sometimes we call them Rainbow Petes) there. That would be a start.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
So what you mean is this is what you would say to racists?
Well sometimes I would. Often I would think it without saying it. I wasn't calling you a racist if that's what you thought I was implying.
Instead, the point that I was directing at you was the contrast between a) "I don't think that shouting "this is racist!" is going to help much. People will only dig their heels in." and then later b) "And frankly, if you don't like my way of dealing with this, then that's not my problem.".
So I wondered why you advocated that the racists get the softly-softly don't-want-to-dig-their-heels-in but then later you expressed the "not my problem" approach.
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
mdijon: So I wondered why you advocated that the racists get the softly-softly don't-want-to-dig-their-heels-in but then later you expressed the "not my problem" approach.
I've given reasons and examples of why I think my approach might work, you haven't reacted to any of that. You're just criticizing it giving it silly names without providing much content of why your approach would be better than mine.
And I really have to make an effort to get my head around what you're saying. The "not my problem" approach was directed to you, not to racists. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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An die Freude
Shipmate
# 14794
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Posted
I'd like to ask a question related to this: what is, in a non-American setting, the essential discomfort related to people making themselves out to look black (i.e. blackface of sorts) stemming from?
I am aware of global racism, of course, and about minstrel shows. However, I come from a country where those things were never really common. I also know of another parallel history in which jazz musicians commonly made themselves out to be black or white depending on the majority of the orchestra, in order to assimilate the colours of the orchestra. What I'm trying to point to is that there's at least one form of tradition in which whites painted black was not a negative form at all.
As such, whereas I think it's only reasonable to revise the traditions if people perceive discomfort from them, could there be traditions of blackface in Europe that are not essentially racist? If not, how come? Is it the oppression of the essentially Franco-Spanish-Portuguese-English slave trade history that makes any and all such traditions, even in unrelated countries, racist?
I do see the point of a global racist structure. Still, somehow it seems to me like Black Pete could actually be an integrating factor, a good black character (as he is perceived today, not of history) on par with the others in a rather white tradition (as opposed to exceedingly subservient or evil). I don't want to whitesplain in any way, but is it just the history of race charicatures that makes it racist? As such, how is it problematic in countries where racism has not been centred around minstrel shows? I'm sorry for being insensitively stupid, but I'd love to hear some more perspectives on this.
Respectfully,
JFH
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"I too am not a bit tamed, I too am untranslatable."
Walt Whitman
Formerly JFH
Posts: 851 | From: Proud Socialist Monarchy of Sweden | Registered: May 2009
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AmyBo
Shipmate
# 15040
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Posted
I'm not sure how it works in a place that doesn't have the amount of racially-charged history (and present) that we have in the US, but as a USian I can't look at a Black Pete without feeling very sick.
From watching the Black Pete controversy story, I get the impression many whites in the places that have Black Petes are oddly naive about race relations. Like someone not from their own background is a storybook character and not a real person. It's an attitude that is sweetly naive coming from a child, but I'd expect adults to have a broader view of the world, and be able to make connections between Black Pete and some old-timey racism.
Posts: 122 | From: Minnesota | Registered: Aug 2009
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
As an American, deeply mired in the context of racism, I can't answer what a non-racist tradition might be. I can say that what might seem a "non racist tradition" seems to echo racism from what might be an over sensitive view.
For example, the "blacking up" of Jazz players would seem to reflect several parts of the racism here. Jazz is an American tradition, and I don't see "blacking up" for uniformity any different than Fred Astaire wearing Black Face to tap dance like Bojangles Robinson. It's meant as a tribute, but historically it's deeply embarrassing. Initially, Jazz Bands were segregated. It took some brave musicians to insist on playing in integrated bands with, and winning the argument because of their talent. Orchestra color uniformity doesn't escape the resonance of the racism even if it's meant as a tribute.
As for "Black Pete" being an argument for friendship, there is an underlying falsity. The original was a devil or a slave or a Moorish servant. To claim he is a friend, is about as good an argument as saying the Mammy character in Gone With The Wind is a symbol of great race relationships in the post war American South.
Finally, why not simply reverse things? Saint Nicholas can be a historical deep dark brown and you can make Black Pete white with black hair.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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mdijon
Shipmate
# 8520
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
The "not my problem" approach was directed to you, not to racists. You're comparing apples and oranges here.
So why do I get less consideration than the racists? Why is it "not my problem" to me but "don't want them to dig their heels in by shouting at them" to the racists?
(By the way I've never understood the reason why comparing apples and oranges is a problem. I'm asking here what makes the apple get more consideration than the orange?)
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mdijon nojidm uoɿıqɯ ɯqıɿou
ɯqıɿou uoɿıqɯ nojidm mdijon
Posts: 12277 | From: UK | Registered: Sep 2004
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