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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Purpose of a Church Service
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The Undercover Christian
Apprentice
# 17875
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Posted
Hi, Purgatorials!
Being normally a denizen of Heaven, please forgive me if this has been discussed before (if so I'd love to get the link).
A chum of mine was wondering what the different views are across Christianity on the purpose of a church service. We often discuss the purpose of church, and we often discuss the purpose of 'fellowship', or 'worship', but not so much why we have services in the way that we do or what alternative models there might be.
Are there alternatives? Could you run a church without ever having a service? Does anybody do that? What's the reason we do services and what would they be replaced with to meet those needs?
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
My running hypothesis has been that God acts in a church service to bring about the salvation of humankind, while the congregation witnesses this work and responds with gratitude and praise.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
This is a very good question, or set of questions. I don't know the answer but I suspect that its to do with worshipping God. The average lonely outsider gets ignored, of course, and disappears somewhat perplexed (maybe s/he had the notion that maybe someone among the regulars might acknowledge the newcomer's existence).
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
One of the points of a church service, seen from the practical POV, is that a ritual gathering moves us beyond a social club into at least thinking about something beyond oneself (or all us together)
If we don't have some manner of getting "beyond" ourselves, what is the point of that kind of social club?
It isn't just about "us".
Exactly how the particular group does this process of thinking outside of our own little group depends on the specific group, of course. A silent Quaker gathering works towards the same purpose as a High Mass, but in a different way. Neither is necessarily "right" or "wrong".
There is the danger that the performance of the ritual might become more important than the purpose of the ritual.
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It's Not That Simple
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The main purpose of a church service is to praise God. I once read somewhere that the emphasis on praise and underemphasis on other things isn't very good, but nevertheless, it's clear that praise is dominant in the main gatherings of the church.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
Church service as praise is OK with me, SvitlanaV2. The problem I see is that by itself it makes the work of the congregation primary, when in the Christian faith the work of God is always primary. The Church witnesses the work of God, in word and sacrament, and then the Church responds with praise and thanksgiving.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
This is a very good question, or set of questions. I don't know the answer but I suspect that its to do with worshipping God.
I agree that it's a great question, though I thoroughly disagree with this answer! ISTM the New Testament defines 'worship' in a far broader way than as something we do at church services; I'm particularly thinking of Romans 12:1-2, which says the way to worship God is to offer our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice.
I think the NT says other things about what church services are for - basically I'd say we gather together for mutual strengthening and encouragement. Here's my more detailed answer...
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
This is a very good question, or set of questions. I don't know the answer but I suspect that its to do with worshipping God.
I agree that it's a great question, though I thoroughly disagree with this answer! ISTM the New Testament defines 'worship' in a far broader way than as something we do at church services; I'm particularly thinking of Romans 12:1-2, which says the way to worship God is to offer our bodies as a living and holy sacrifice.
I think the NT says other things about what church services are for - basically I'd say we gather together for mutual strengthening and encouragement. Here's my more detailed answer...
Oh well, I suppose I have to be content with partial agreement.
I don't think I said that worship only takes place at a church service, what I meannt is that worship is the main purpose of the service.
Slightly miffed that I'm taken to task when Svitlana said more or less the same. Or is there a difference between praise and worship?
As a relative newbie, I'm ready for a kicking.
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South Coast Kevin
Shipmate
# 16130
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Posted
Sorry, Francophile - it's just that using the word 'worship' as you did is a bugbear of mine! This might be pedantry but I would say worship and praise are two different things, both in terms of God and in general.
Worshipping God means, for me, doing something (potentially anything, pretty much) with the aim of bringing honour and glory to God. Whereas praising God is more specifically about telling of God's goodness. One way of doing the latter is, of course, through the things we typically do in church services, so I think I'm much happier with the idea of 'going to church to praise God' than I am '...to worship God'. Although, I'd still prefer the focus to be far more on us (I know that sounds wrong), at least in the sense that we go to church to help each other live more God-pleasing lives.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
For those who believe that Christ is present in the Word and Sacrament, we gather for an up-close-and-personal encounter. For those who believe differently, the purpose is often formative and supportive.
The former group could not do without gathering together. The latter probably could.
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Olaf:
For those who believe that Christ is present in the Word and Sacrament, we gather for an up-close-and-personal encounter. For those who believe differently, the purpose is often formative and supportive.
The former group could not do without gathering together. The latter probably could.
I find a both/and here ... though I would put the out-going praise to God as the primary movement, and anything about fellowship, support and so on as collateral dama ... er ... fringe benefit.
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and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I agree. The praise and worship of God is the main reason for a church service. All the rest is secondary.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
I think the NT says other things about what church services are for - basically I'd say we gather together for mutual strengthening and encouragement.
Those, communion, prayer for one another and folks we know, and study of the word to learn to be more like Jesus. Come to think of it, yes, those are strengthening and encouraging.
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"Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward."
Delmar O'Donnell
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
Great question and great answers. I once heard someone say that we way we evangelise/grow the church is by:
- showing compassion to people without any strings attached
- inviting them into our church community to experience the presence of God for themselves.
I think the NT also supports the idea of some aspects of our meeting being outward-focused, i.e. for outsiders. (Not that this is the focus of evangelism just one component relevant to this discussion)
So, as per previous comments, if everything we do is "worship" in the sense of bringing honour to God (first couple petitions of the Lord's prayer), then I think we have three dimensions of "doing church":
- Up - Praise of God because he's worth it!
- In - mutual strengthening and encouragement through fellowship, teaching, prayer, etc.
- Out - welcoming outisders and sharing with them an experience of the presence of God
Exactly how that works out in practice is multifaceted in many and various expressions. See Mystery Worshipper for examples ![[Biased]](wink.gif) But I guess the basic pattern (in the west at any rate) has been around for centuries (though not since the NT). Anyone know when this pattern (recognisable "church services") started?
p.s. South Coast Kevin love the phrase in your blog: quote:
I've been thinking for a long time about how our rhythms of church can (unintentionally) encourage us to let our spiritual life drift between meetings.
Very thought-provoking. Our meeting together is supposed to be an encouragement and support for daily discipleship not a replacement for it, yet sometimes that seems to be the (unintentional) consequence....
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daronmedway
Shipmate
# 3012
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Posted
After a few years of reflecting on this question I've managed to distil my understanding of the purpose of corporate worship services (or meetings) to the following three points:
- enjoying God's presence
- hearing God speak
- receiving God's grace
God has appointed a variety of mean by and through which these criteria can be met and they do not legislate a particular style or mode to be fulfilled. They also accord with Zach's God centred definition.
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Stejjie
Shipmate
# 13941
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Posted
I wrote an essay for my post-ordination studies on this theme recently, arguing the case for gathered worship against those (and I realise this isn't a position taken on this thread) who argue that it is un-missional and too insular and should be dropped - wish I could remember what I'd written!
But, while I do see SCK's point that worship can be done anywhere and that there is a danger of seeing Sunday worship as overshadowing our Monday-Saturday discipleship, I don't see that as mitigating against seeing Sunday (or whatever day) services as being primarily about worship.
What I would say is that Sunday worship is primarily about gathered worship. Worship services are where it stops being just about me and my personal relationship with God (which is important) and about us being the people of God declaring God's praises, showing ourselves to be God's people, the body of Christ. I'm not sure I have the words to explain what I mean fully, but the Sunday gathered worship is vital because it's not just about my personal relationship with God that happens to intersect with other people's personal relationships with God once a week: I'm part of the body of Christ and we together have a personal relationship with Christ that needs to be expressed corporately and, I believe, a duty to praise and worship God together.
And, taking on board Zach's point, I do believe there is a particular way in which we meet God in these times - not that we can't meet God wherever and whenever, but that there's something particularly special about these times of corporate worship. And (phew!) I think gathered worship services act as a kind of sign of God gathering us together as His people and of His plan to reconcile all things to Himself in Christ. When we meet for worship together, we do so because God has gathered us together to show that this is what He intends to do with the whole of creation, for the praise of His glory.
Now, we're at best a hugely flawed and broken sign - there's no doubt about that. But I think that's what God intends us to be and what's supposed to happen in our services and why these times of corporate praise and worship are important and the primary objective of Sunday (or whenever) services.
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A not particularly-alt-worshippy, fairly mainstream, mildly evangelical, vaguely post-modern-ish Baptist
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
There are highly sacramental types who go for Communion, but most Protestants probably still feel that preaching should be at the heart of the church service. But Europeans don't believe as they did in the past, and sermons are generally more reflective than authoritative, and so are less compelling. People now have access to many sources of religious information, and popular entertainers rather than clergy provide the fine oratory that people like to hear. And claiming that 'worship' can happen anywhere may be an important message, but in our culture it does add one more reason for not bothering to go to church at all.
For me, the church service mainly provides the psychological comfort of Christian togetherness and a relatively distraction-free spiritual setting where I can focus on God rather than on my distance from God.
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The Undercover Christian
Apprentice
# 17875
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Posted
Fascinating ideas so far.
So let me ask this.
We've had quite an array of ideas about what a church service is for - what needs it is meeting.
So is there a way a church could deliver the needs we've identified here either better or to the same level of success without holding services?
Are there any churches that run without services, instead perhaps a series of thematic events that people pick and choose according to their need?
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Prester John
Shipmate
# 5502
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Undercover Christian:
Fascinating ideas so far.
So let me ask this.
We've had quite an array of ideas about what a church service is for - what needs it is meeting.
So is there a way a church could deliver the needs we've identified here either better or to the same level of success without holding services?
Are there any churches that run without services, instead perhaps a series of thematic events that people pick and choose according to their need?
Sounds consumerish to me. How do I know I'm really addressing what I really need?
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A.Pilgrim
Shipmate
# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are highly sacramental types who go for Communion, but most Protestants probably still feel that preaching should be at the heart of the church service.
...
I'd count myself as evangelical not just protestant, but I would like Communion to be at the heart of most worship services. My eucharistic theology might be memorial rather than sacramental, but the action that Jesus instructed his disciples to do in remembrance of him was break bread together, not sit and listen to a sermon together.
Angus
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shamwari
Shipmate
# 15556
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Posted
We have come together as the family of God
in our Father's presence
to offer him praise and thanksgiving,
to hear and receive his holy word,
to bring before him the needs of the world,
to ask his forgiveness of our sins,
and to seek his grace, that through his Son Jesus Christ
we may give ourselves to his service.
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Schroedinger's cat
Ship's cool cat
# 64
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Posted
There is none.
Praise and worship - well that can be done anywhere, and (IMO) a church service is not a good place for it - I struggle to worship in a service, I would far rather worship elsewhere, listening to music, outside, all sorts of places.
Can a "church" exist without services? It depends what you mean by church. If you would define "a church" and "services" as any group of people meeting together because of a desire for Christian spiritual development, then probably not. If you define a church as an organisation that has services then no. Is is possible to be a Christian without going to services? Yes.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
There are highly sacramental types who go for Communion, but most Protestants probably still feel that preaching should be at the heart of the church service.
...
I'd count myself as evangelical not just protestant, but I would like Communion to be at the heart of most worship services. My eucharistic theology might be memorial rather than sacramental, but the action that Jesus instructed his disciples to do in remembrance of him was break bread together, not sit and listen to a sermon together.
Angus
I am not massively well-educated on the Brethren and those who worship at Gospel Halls (are they the same?), but iirc they have weekly Communion - or at least 'breaking of bread' is advertised on their buildings.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Undercover Christian:
Fascinating ideas so far.
So let me ask this.
We've had quite an array of ideas about what a church service is for - what needs it is meeting.
So is there a way a church could deliver the needs we've identified here either better or to the same level of success without holding services?
Are there any churches that run without services, instead perhaps a series of thematic events that people pick and choose according to their need?
Quakers don't have set services but they're also non-Trinitarian (or at least most UK Quakers aren't) and I think it's maybe different to what you mean? I think what you mean would end in chaos and totally put outsiders off though. Outsiders like an idea of what they're coming to, and a regular set-up. Even something like irregular service times (like CoE team benefices often have) are off-putting to outsiders.
Speaking for myself, the Eucharist should be front and centre, because as someone who believes in the Real Presence it is putting Christ front and centre. To me, putting preaching at the heart of a service is putting a person's words before the Presence of Christ, although obviously a memorialist will view things a bit differently.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
I'd count myself as evangelical not just protestant, but I would like Communion to be at the heart of most worship services. My eucharistic theology might be memorial rather than sacramental, but the action that Jesus instructed his disciples to do in remembrance of him was break bread together, not sit and listen to a sermon together.
Angus
IME of Nonconformist and newer churches, Communion isn't served every week, so it can hardly be 'at the heart of most worship services'. Are you CofE, Lutheran or something like that?
Jade Constable
I didn't know that Gospel Hall folk had Communion every week. That's very interesting.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
I'd count myself as evangelical not just protestant, but I would like Communion to be at the heart of most worship services. My eucharistic theology might be memorial rather than sacramental, but the action that Jesus instructed his disciples to do in remembrance of him was break bread together, not sit and listen to a sermon together.
Angus
IME of Nonconformist and newer churches, Communion isn't served every week, so it can hardly be 'at the heart of most worship services'. Are you CofE, Lutheran or something like that?
Jade Constable
I didn't know that Gospel Hall folk had Communion every week. That's very interesting.
CoE evangelicals tend to have Communion monthly, and the Lutheran church in the UK barely exists. There are certainly Nonconformist churches that have weekly Communion, they tend to be in the strict Reformed/Brethren line (I wouldn't call them 'newer' churches). Also some charismatic evangelical churches have Communion weekly.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
CoE evangelicals tend to have Communion monthly, and the Lutheran church in the UK barely exists. There are certainly Nonconformist churches that have weekly Communion, they tend to be in the strict Reformed/Brethren line (I wouldn't call them 'newer' churches). Also some charismatic evangelical churches have Communion weekly.
I have no idea where A. Pilgrim comes from! Could be the UK or anywhere! But I've never seen a Lutheran church in the UK, no.
There must be huge regional differences in what's available. I don't know where I'd have to look to find an evangelical church that celebrates weekly Communion in my city, other than at a CofE church that has different Sunday services, some with weekly Communion and some not. I do know of a Gospel Hall congregation, but had no idea they had Communion every week. Is this normal for the whole denomination or does it depend on the individual church?
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
CoE evangelicals tend to have Communion monthly, and the Lutheran church in the UK barely exists. There are certainly Nonconformist churches that have weekly Communion, they tend to be in the strict Reformed/Brethren line (I wouldn't call them 'newer' churches). Also some charismatic evangelical churches have Communion weekly.
I have no idea where A. Pilgrim comes from! Could be the UK or anywhere! But I've never seen a Lutheran church in the UK, no.
There must be huge regional differences in what's available. I don't know where I'd have to look to find an evangelical church that celebrates weekly Communion in my city, other than at a CofE church that has different Sunday services, some with weekly Communion and some not. I do know of a Gospel Hall congregation, but had no idea they had Communion every week. Is this normal for the whole denomination or does it depend on the individual church?
It says the UK at the bottom of their posts ![[Smile]](smile.gif) I actually used to live right next to a Lutheran church in Coventry but never attended - according to Wikipedia, there are 19 Evangelical Lutheran churches in England. However in the US and elsewhere I think the Lutheran church is akin to MOTR Anglicanism and probably doesn't have weekly Communion in that case.
Certainly for smaller denominational groups, they are often clustered in one part of the country, although IME Elim churches have weekly Communion? I used to attend one when I very first became a Christian and there was weekly Communion there although it might not be for all Elim churches.
Re Gospel Halls, I have never attended one but all the ones I've gone past have advertised weekly Breaking of Bread. I don't know that much about the denomination to be honest apart from them being like (or part of?) the Brethren.
Possibly the further away churches are from the Catholic Church in terms of relationship/identity, the easier they feel about weekly Communion, if that makes sense? Like, for evangelical Anglicans, being in the same denomination as Anglo-Catholics makes it a bit too close to home maybe?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Ah, I looked in the wrong place for the info about someone's whereabouts.
I've seen a few Gospel Halls around, but not noticed references to 'Breaking of Bread'. I'll have to look again.
It would be interesting if the Elim had weekly Communion. IME, Pentecostals don't have Communion very often at all. But there are so many different types of Pentecostal, and the ones I know are probably quite different. Also, I think the Elim folk are moving away from the Pentecostal label. Maybe this indicates a slightly higher churchmanship than many other Pentecostals would have?
Still, going back to my earlier point, I don't think it's terribly wrong of me to suggest that Protestants in general are usually considered to place a high importance on preaching. This doesn't mean that Communion is neglected. In Methodism, the tradition I know best, Communion is important, though it takes places once a month, not weekly. But preaching is weekly, and since lay preaching is such a strong part of denominational identity it would be hard to see it as less important. People might turn up especially for Communion, but they might also turn up for a favourite preacher, or avoid another.
(I also realise that not all CofE folk see themselves as Protestant.)
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
At least for the Reformers, preaching was sacramental. Exposition on the Gospel was just as much an offer of God's grace as the Eucharist. The only difference was the medium through which Jesus was mediated to the congregation.
What didn't cut it, for the Reformers, was the thought that there could be exposition of the Gospel without a listening Church. The Gospel creates a Church—there was no thought that worship and congregation could be separated.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
For Jade Constable and SvitlanaV2:
I've had first hand experience of Brethren churches. Yes they do have communion every week and it is held as probably the most important service of the week. In some Brethren fellowships it would also be followed by preaching but this isn't always the case.
The main feature of the Breaking of Bread is that it is an entirely open format. There is no structure anyone is able to contribute by sharing, reading from the Bible, praying, asking to sing a specific hymn, etc. then for communion anyone is able to break bread and pour the wine ( though often this would fall to the Elders). One of the things I like about this format is that the expectation is on everyone to "come prepared to offer a sacrifice of praise". So the emphasis is on what we bring to God in praise not we receive. I remember going to Brethren services when I was younger where even the teaching was open. Whoever felt led by the Spirit to preach got up and spoke. Some of my most powerful experiences of the presence of God have been in Brethren-style Breaking of Bread services.
However there are some downsides, for example, the format only works up to a certain size before group dynamics start inhibiting contributions. So more progressive Brethren churches that have grown substantially but not planted smaller offshoots usually have to find a new way to do communion. But you will find it there somewhere every week.
"Gospel Hall" is a dead giveaway for a Brethren church. Though if it is still using this designation it is probably a dyed-in-the-wool congregation that hasn't moved on. IME this will mean, for example, women are still not allowed to participate. So when I said earlier "everyone" that means for some congregations just the men. Personally, I believe this violates their own principle of the priesthood of all believers but there you go.
I would characterise the core essentials of a "Brethren" fellowship as:
A central place is given to an open-style Breaking of Bread service,
There is a strong emphasis on Bible teaching and every member growing in Bible knowledge
Plurality of leadership: there is no one leader or pastor but a group of Elders.
Apart from that you will probably find a huge spread in belief and practice amongst Brethren churches (or those with a Brethren heritage) around things like gifts of the Spirit, women's participation, etc, etc.
I hope that helps.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Gracious rebel
Rainbow warrior
# 3523
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Posted
quote:
Yes they do have communion every week and it is held as probably the most important service of the week.
I was brought up in a Brethren Gospel Hall, and would reiterate what Jammy Dodger said. (in fact I would drop the 'probably' from JD's sentence!)
It kinda bemused me when I started worshiping with other Nonconformists (Baptists and URC in my case) that communion seemed to be 'tagged on' to the end of a service, rather than being the main focus of the gathering. This was especially noticeable among the Baptist churches I attended (which were mainly Grace Baptist, formerly Strict Baptist) where it was actually a separate service, with a 5 minute gap after the main service, during which a significant part of the congregation left. It seemed to be treated as an 'optional extra' for the particularly devout.
[ 07. December 2013, 12:12: Message edited by: Gracious rebel ]
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Posts: 4413 | From: Suffolk UK | Registered: Nov 2002
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Back in the day, in my experience - and this may have been a regional thing - the Assemblies of God had more of a focus on communion. At our local AoG church the morning service was a communion service and the evening one was either a Gospel Service (complete with altar-calls and all the 'I-see-that-hand ...' business) or a more full-on Pentecostal style rally with lots of tongues and so on.
The Brethren had a weekly communion service and an evening Gospel Service. Other than the prayers in rather warbly Welsh voices at the AoG, there wasn't a great deal of difference between the communion services at either the Brethren or the Pentecostals.
I don't think Elim are any 'higher' than other Pentecostal denominations when it comes to their views of communion - but they were always more broadly evangelical in focus rather than 'Pentecostal' in the AoG sense. I've noticed that both Elim and AoG churches these days tend to shy away from the use of the term Pentecostal - particularly when dealing with outsiders - as they feel it carries negative connotations and baggage.
I'm not sure that weekly communion among MOTR or evangelical Anglican parishes is as rare as some have suggested. Our parish here is evangelical and three out of four of the 9am services are communion services and one of the more 'informal' 11am services is too. You will find some Sundays where there isn't a communion at either service but those are rare.
I agree with Gracious Rebel that communion services can often feel rather 'bolt-on' at many non-conformist churches - other than the Brethren - and indeed, I'm afraid to say, in some evangelical Anglican settings too.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I'm in the West Midlands and have never been a 'Brethern' church here, although I've seen a number of Gospel Hall ones. They're usually in very small buildings, so weekly Communion must feel like a very intimate experience there.
I share the sense that Communion can feel like a 'bolt-on'. It's a pity that in the Methodist Church it always occurs towards the end of a service rather than early on. I'm often getting a bit sleepy by that point, and sometimes it seems that the minister is rushing through the liturgy every so slightly. Methodists don't like a service to 'overrun', but Communion services do tend to be a little longer than others, on average.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm in the West Midlands and have never been a 'Brethern' church here, although I've seen a number of Gospel Hall ones. They're usually in very small buildings, so weekly Communion must feel like a very intimate experience there.
Very true. It is an intimate format. My guess is you'll find congregations of between 20-50 and open communion works well at this group size. One thing I forgot to mention is that some Brethren fellowships when they have communion will arrange the hall with the table in the middle and chairs in a circular formation around it (rather than the more traditional "altar" formation at one end). This means "meeting around the Lord's table" means exactly that - another aspect I personally like (being able to see each other). It also has the practical benefit of making it easier to hear contributions from people without the need for amplification.
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I'm in the West Midlands and have never been a 'Brethern' church here, although I've seen a number of Gospel Hall ones. They're usually in very small buildings, so weekly Communion must feel like a very intimate experience there.
I share the sense that Communion can feel like a 'bolt-on'. It's a pity that in the Methodist Church it always occurs towards the end of a service rather than early on. I'm often getting a bit sleepy by that point, and sometimes it seems that the minister is rushing through the liturgy every so slightly. Methodists don't like a service to 'overrun', but Communion services do tend to be a little longer than others, on average.
There is a fairly large Brethren community in Coventry (where I grew up) but I think it is a closed one ie not open to outsiders. The women (including young girls) wear headscarves and they don't watch TV, and are not allowed to eat with outsiders which I think is in relation to the verse in 2 Corinthians 6 about not eating with unbelievers? There were a number of them at school with me and they had to go home at lunchtime, and were not allowed to attend assembly or RE lessons.
Also Gospel Halls are Brethren churches it would seem (I wasn't sure).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I share the sense that Communion can feel like a 'bolt-on'. It's a pity that in the Methodist Church it always occurs towards the end of a service rather than early on. I'm often getting a bit sleepy by that point, and sometimes it seems that the minister is rushing through the liturgy every so slightly. Methodists don't like a service to 'overrun', but Communion services do tend to be a little longer than others, on average.
True of Baptists too, in the main.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
Svitlana - I would imagine Communion happens towards the end of a Methodist service because the service follows the same pattern as a Catholic or Anglican service, with the liturgy of the word followed by the liturgy of the sacrament. Communion happens near the end of a Catholic Mass but clearly that's not just tacking it on the end there. Of course, the altar and tabernacle being centre helps this in an RC or A-C setting.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Beeswax Altar
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# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Gamaliel:
Back in the day, in my experience - and this may have been a regional thing - the Assemblies of God had more of a focus on communion.
The Assemblies of God church I attended at a teenager didn't do communion very often at all. I don't recall a single communion service. We had it. It just wasn't that big a deal.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
I did say that it could be a regional thing, Beeswax Altar. Pentecostalism in South Wales would be rather different to Pentecostalism in West Texas, although there would be some similarities in demographic and style etc.
All Pentecostal denominations in the UK were initially very influenced by Methodism and its Holiness offshoots, so communion may have played a bigger part in Pentecostalism over here than it did in the USA. I'm only guessing ...
Pentecostalism on mainland Europe was different again.
The Pentecostals in the UK were always quite 'showy' compared to other indigenous Free Church groups but there was always some kind of pride in their Wesleyan roots - and as far as Elim goes, the Jeffreys brothers were always keen to maintain some distance from Aimee Semple MacPherson and what they saw as the glitz and excesses of US Pentecostalism.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Coming back to the OP, though, and Zach82 may or may not be gratified to hear me say this, but as much as I carp on at times about some aspects of Calvinism, I would submit that both Calvinism and the more Catholic traditions share a less anthropocentric approach to worship/church services than some other traditions.
It may sound counter-intuitive to a particular kind of evangelical mindset, but I have always found my visits to RC or Orthodox settings quite uplifting in terms of the God-centred-ness of the worship - and the liturgy helps/reinforces that of course.
Previously, I was convinced that they were all idolaters with Mary, the Saints and iconography getting in the way of 'true worship' ...
The more I looked, though, the more I realised that the focus was more explicitly Trinitarian than it can be in some Protestant forms of worship - helped by the Trinitarian formularies of course.
You'd be pretty dim if you came away from an Orthodox service conducted in English, for instance, without realising that they believe that Jesus is God. I've come across people who are unclear/unsure of that one even in apparently 'sound' evangelical churches.
My experience of URC ministers, for instance, has been that their Reformed background ensures that they vet/consider things very carefully before allowing them to be used in public worship. The ones I've known have been careful to ensure that the worship is focussed on God and not on some kind of anthropocentric thing about the 'needs' of the congregation and so on.
I'm afraid I part company with South Coast Kevin on the belief that small, informal groups and so on have inbuilt safeguards to prevent things drifting off track.
Without a liturgy and recognised structure it's all too easy to drift off in the direction of the minister/leaders' pet issues and hobby-horses or to become bogged down in the concerns of the congregation who might want to sing particular songs because it 'makes them feel better' or because they are seeking 'ministry' in some way.
I'm not saying it's wrong to enjoy whatever is sung or said or to seek prayer etc but so much of what goes on across the charismatic/evangelical constituency these days seems to fall into the self-indulgent and the sloppy.
For all my reservations about some aspects of Calvinist theology, I'll certainly allow that Calvinists take the Godward aspect very, very seriously when it comes to worship and church services.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
p.s. South Coast Kevin love the phrase in your blog: quote:
I've been thinking for a long time about how our rhythms of church can (unintentionally) encourage us to let our spiritual life drift between meetings.
Very thought-provoking. Our meeting together is supposed to be an encouragement and support for daily discipleship not a replacement for it, yet sometimes that seems to be the (unintentional) consequence....
Cheers, Mr Dodger. This is why I'm so leery of the idea that we go to church to 'worship God'; ISTM this implies the church service is the pinnacle of our life with God and - perhaps - that God is less concerned with what we do and how we are all the rest of the week.
On the contrary, Christianity is a whole-life thing, I'm sure we'd all agree. So I think what we do in our church services should enable and encourage us to live our whole life as an act of worship to God, which arguably is a 180 degree rethink. We don't prepare ourselves for the act of worship at the church service; the church service prepares us (or rather, we help prepare one another at the church service) to go and worship God as we make our way in the world.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Jammy Dodger
Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by South Coast Kevin:
On the contrary, Christianity is a whole-life thing, I'm sure we'd all agree. So I think what we do in our church services should enable and encourage us to live our whole life as an act of worship to God, which arguably is a 180 degree rethink. We don't prepare ourselves for the act of worship at the church service; the church service prepares us (or rather, we help prepare one another at the church service) to go and worship God as we make our way in the world.
I do indeed agree that Christianity is a whole-life thing. The core issue is that we don't go to church - we are the church regardless of whether we are gathered (as someone mentioned up thread) or scattered during the week. However I think it is very much a both/and thing. I agree totally that gathering together should prepare us to worship God as we make our way in the world. However, I also think that preparing to come and bring a sacrifice of praise (as I mentioned earlier) is also important. IMO a vital aspect of gathering is also to take us out of ourselves, to focus on the Lord and adore him in a way that does not seem possible when we are scattered. The knack is to keep both of these in balance over the long term...
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Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
Posts: 438 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2013
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
Making corporate worship merely a preparation or support for the "real" worship of everyday life is to make a distinction between corporate worship and everyday life.
I reject this distinction. Hearing the word of God proclaimed in the congregation on Sunday is just as much a moral, concrete obligation as loving the poor.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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A.Pilgrim
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# 15044
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by A.Pilgrim:
I'd count myself as evangelical not just protestant, but I would like Communion to be at the heart of most worship services. My eucharistic theology might be memorial rather than sacramental, but the action that Jesus instructed his disciples to do in remembrance of him was break bread together, not sit and listen to a sermon together.
Angus
IME of Nonconformist and newer churches, Communion isn't served every week, so it can hardly be 'at the heart of most worship services'. Are you CofE, Lutheran or something like that?
Just for the record, and for clarification, I don’t describe myself by any specific denominational label at all, so no, I’m not CofE or Lutheran. As I have a perhaps idiosyncratic combination of theological beliefs, ecclesial views, and preferences for style of worship, I don’t fit in to any denomination that I’ve come across. Attending any local congregation requires a compromise on something.
Though from what I’ve read in posts following the one I’ve quoted, maybe I might fit into an Elim church. This is rather intriguing, as I’ve never had any contact with or knowledge of Elim churches before now. And reading that they had roots in the Wesleyan movement affirms my wondering, as I’ve thought for quite a while that the Wesleyan combination of non-conformism and a high view of the eucharist would suit me. Mind you, it would have to be open brethren, not closed like the community in Coventry described by Jade.
I’ve learned a lot from this thread. My thanks to the contributors.
Angus
Posts: 434 | From: UK | Registered: Aug 2009
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jammy Dodger:
However I think it is very much a both/and thing. I agree totally that gathering together should prepare us to worship God as we make our way in the world. However, I also think that preparing to come and bring a sacrifice of praise (as I mentioned earlier) is also important. IMO a vital aspect of gathering is also to take us out of ourselves, to focus on the Lord and adore him in a way that does not seem possible when we are scattered. The knack is to keep both of these in balance over the long term...
Hmm, I've always been a bit puzzled by that phrase 'a sacrifice of praise'. What exactly does it mean? Would you explicitly link it to gathering together, or can we offer a sacrifice of praise just as well on our own, would you say?
And I still don't really get the idea of our gathering together being to focus on and adore God in a way that's different from what we can do on our own. I think we need to be much more concrete and specific about what benefit can be gained from our gathering together. Because coming up with some answers to that question will then guide our thinking on what things we should do when we meet together. How will the time be best spent; are there specific things (e.g. communion?) that God has commanded us to do when we meet together as church?
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
Hearing the word of God proclaimed in the congregation on Sunday is just as much a moral, concrete obligation as loving the poor.
Where does this idea come from for you, Zach82? Is it a biblical command, something that springs from church tradition, or is it because there's something uniquely important about 'hearing the word of God proclaimed' like this? And do you specifically mean hearing a sermon week by week is a moral, concrete obligation, or would you define 'hearing the word' more broadly than that?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Zach82
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# 3208
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Posted
We have to hear the word proclaimed because the grace of God is always primary in the Christian faith. It does not fall to us to form the Kingdom with our Godly works—it is the free gift of God in Jesus Christ. Jesus becomes present to us, whether through word or through sacrament, and only then does the Christian life become possible. Worshiping God in truth is, therefore, the first and central ethical act of a Christian that makes all other Christian acts possible.
It's not that this proclamation can happen only in church on Sunday. An individual and private relationship with God is of course necessary for all Christians. It is, again, a mistake to think that we must go to church to be righteous. The Word creates the Church through faith. Faith is not a mere abstraction, but a call to concrete actions, and therefore the Word of God will create for itself a Church that is marked by concrete signs. Baptism, Eucharist, charity, Christian fellowship—the Word creates a visible community through these concrete signs.
This visible community is the Church. Thus, the intersection of God's grace and human faith is the Word of God proclaimed to the visible Church, and Sunday worship is the weekly expression of the salvation God has given all humankind.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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