|
Source: (consider it)
|
Thread: Did Anne and Joachim "do it"?
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
Posted elsewhere:
quote:
Originally posted by L'organist:
If an "immaculate" conception = no original sin then you're saying that sexual intercourse is the original sin.
The dogma of the Immaculate Conception teaches that Mary, the mother of Jesus, was free of original sin from the moment of her conception. It does not teach that Mary was conceived by a method other than sexual intercourse between her parents. For once, the Wikipedia entry on the topic is instructive.
But I disagree with L'organist's thesis quoted above. Original sin arose quite outside of the sex act -- it was the result of an act of disobedience by the "first parents", Adam and Eve (Genesis 3). Sexual intercourse is not sinful (except in the eyes of some under certain circumstances, which we won't go into here).
One could just as erroneously say that because a man and woman "did 69" immediately after having intercourse, and nine months later their child was born with a cleft palate, then the act of "69" must have been the cause of the cleft palate. Post hoc, ergo propter hoc, the sages call it, don't they?
Discuss.
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
The Roman Catholic Church does not teach that Anna and Joachim did not conceive the Blessed Virgin Mary by sexual intercourse. Nor does it teach, at least now, that Original Sin is a result of the bad-ness of sex. (I think, in the past, some theologians and hierarchs said that sexual intercourse was the way Original Sin was "transmitted" but theology and doctrine are two different things). The BVM was sinless and full of Grace from the very moment she came into existence - ie., her conception. That belief doesn't really have anything to do with sex.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
|
Posted
Can I have the biblical reference to Mary's parents' identities please?
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
Can I have the biblical reference to Mary's parents' identities please?
Um, there isn't one? Some denominations might think that means this thread topic is not important, but I don't.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
| IP: Logged
|
|
Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
|
Posted
It's purely oral tradition.
"There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Hamlet (1.5.166-7)
[ 09. December 2013, 18:40: Message edited by: Amanda B. Reckondwythe ]
--------------------
"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
| IP: Logged
|
|
Louise
Shipmate
# 30
|
Posted
hosting
Hi, original sin isn't a Dead Horse, unless you want to discuss creationism/evolution or Biblical infallibility with regard to it. Could the OP please make clear whether one of these is intended, so that we know whether to move the thread or not?
thanks!
Louise
hosting off
--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
It's purely oral tradition.
Ah, but their sex wasn't, or Mary wouldn't have been conceived.
The typical Orthodox icon of the Feast of the Conception by Anna of the Mother of God distinctly shows a bed, displaying for everyone to see exactly how Mary was conceived.
[ 09. December 2013, 20:18: Message edited by: mousethief ]
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
I saw a similar picture recently, but the caption was "Hold on there, Joachim, you'll need to wait an extra day this year."
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
(Since 8 December fell on a Sunday, the Feast of the Immaculate Conception is transferred to 9 December.)
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
|
Posted
Funny, my 2013 diary shows the Feast of the IC as being on Sunday 8 December. It's a German published diary but gives the feast days in English and French as well as German.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
Perhaps this will help. Perhaps not, but.
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Francophile
Shipmate
# 17838
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chesterbelloc:
Perhaps this will help. Perhaps not, but.
Fascinating link (yawn)
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
| IP: Logged
|
|
Chesterbelloc
Tremendous trifler
# 3128
|
Posted
"Yawn"?
*Blink*
Ask a fascinating question...
--------------------
"[A] moral, intellectual, and social step below Mudfrog."
Posts: 4199 | From: Athens Borealis | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
Pigwidgeon
Ship's Owl
# 10192
|
Posted
In the Episcopal Church (and, I assume, other Anglican churches) the Feast of the Conception* of the BVM is not a Principal Feast (see BCP, page 15). The only Principal Feasts are Easter, Ascension, Pentecost, Trinity Sunday, All Saints', Christmas, and the Epiphany - and of course, most of those fall on Sundays anyway. The Holy Name, The Presentation, and The Transfiguration may also take precedence of a Sunday, as may the Patronal or Titular Feast of a church (unless it falls during Advent, Lent, or Easter).
*No "Immaculate" Conception for us!
--------------------
"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf
Posts: 9835 | From: Hogwarts | Registered: Aug 2005
| IP: Logged
|
|
Louise
Shipmate
# 30
|
Posted
hosting
Ok the mystery's been solved - the question was directed here by accident from another of the boards. The subject belongs in Purgatory. So Purgatorial discussion from now onwards, please. If you want to discuss feast days, please start a new thread in Ecclesiantics.
thanks,
Louise
Dead Horses Host
hosting off
--------------------
Now you need never click a Daily Mail link again! Kittenblock replaces Mail links with calming pics of tea and kittens! http://www.teaandkittens.co.uk/ Click under 'other stuff' to find it.
Posts: 6918 | From: Scotland | Registered: May 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
*No "Immaculate" Conception for us!
Nor us. And we celebrate the feast on its original day, December 9. You can read all about it on this most admirable and well-written blog.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
|
Posted
The Immaculate Conception (usually just Conceição) is a big feast in Brazil; she is the Patron Saint of the nation. Within Candomblé, Our Lady of the Immaculate Conception is usually identified with Iemanjá, the spirit of the Sea, and a lot of people go to the beach to offer her flowers. It's very beautiful.
[ 10. December 2013, 15:46: Message edited by: LeRoc ]
--------------------
I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
| IP: Logged
|
|
|
|
|
|
the giant cheeseburger
Shipmate
# 10942
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Amanda B. Reckondwythe:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
The typical Orthodox icon of the Feast of the Conception by Anna of the Mother of God distinctly shows a bed. . . .
Caption Competition, anyone?
That icon clearly shows that they are dancing. What would their great nephew (a Baptist) think of that?
--------------------
If I give a homeopathy advocate a really huge punch in the face, can the injury be cured by giving them another really small punch in the face?
Posts: 4834 | From: Adelaide, South Australia. | Registered: Jan 2006
| IP: Logged
|
|
Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
|
Posted
The Immaculate Conception proves that you can't catch sin from being sexually conceived.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
| IP: Logged
|
|
mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
|
Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
The Immaculate Conception proves that you can't catch sin from being sexually conceived.
Actually it claims that everyone catches sin from being sexually conceived unless God steps in and makes a once-in-the-history-of-the-world saving catch.
--------------------
This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
| IP: Logged
|
|
Printer-friendly view
