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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Western Church Decline
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Ok, thanks for the nudge, Eutychus.
What I should have done was to make the same point but without using real-life Shipmate examples. Although I felt I was on safe ground using Hatless as an example as I've met him real life and know the position he holds because he's told me.
But I take the point and will refrain from this sort of thing in future.
Hi Gamaliel!
Although I am still a theologically liberal Baptist minister, I now work as a chaplain in a psychiatric hospital. When I preach a sermon or talk about the faith it is to people who may well have a learning disability, and are likely to be emotionally fragile. Intellectual discourses are not needed.
But although the things I say may be very simplified, there is still theology behind them. A conservative chaplain will operate and present the faith differently, and I think that everyone is aware of that, chaplains and patients alike.
It's a bit like maths when I was at school in a previous century and constantly urged to show my working out. In the hospital I don't show my working out, but I have to do it, and it makes a difference to the outcome.
In the churches I think the working out can helpfully be shared more extensively, but it's the outcome, the gospel we proclaim that counts.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
I think the issue is that the church has a ruined image. From the outside looking in, which is where I was for a very long time, I saw little more than self-righteous hypocrisy, what I considered to be a vain pre-occupation with tribulation and the world's destruction, and in some of the worst cases, an active longing for unbelievers to burn in hell.
That's the only sort of Christianity which a lot of Americans understand, and by extension those parts of the world which are under American cultural domination, such as suburban Australia. If you have a feeling of love for all humanity, a respect for the backgrounds of other peoples, and a good grasp of scientific truth, than that fundamentalist approach is very unappealing.
The other side of it, is that most people in the West either don't feel - or won't admit to feeling - that there is anything wrong in their actions on a day to day basis. While I'm not on a crusade to judge others, I disagree. But for me, if I was not conscious of my own sin, would I be a Christian? The grace of God would have little meaning for me personally if I was blameless (ignoring the theological complexities of original sin). Am I more blessed that I feel guilt and shame, and thus the gift of Christ's redemption overwhelms me with gratitude, than those who are naive and know not that they need forgiveness from God? I'm really not up to telling them that they're going to hell, because I don't think that's what Christianity is really 'about'.
In short - I think most people a) really don't know what Christianity is, even if they think they do b) don't believe they need it and don't want to be told why they do c) think we're all stupid, hypocrites, or both.
Do I think it's going to improve? No, not really. But I'm not too distraught by it, to be honest. I would love it if every person on this planet repented, rejecting their selfish natures, found grace through Christ, proclaimed Him King, and pursued a sanctified life. But in as much as many people won't - either because they are satisfied to wallow in self and sin, or because (heresy mode) God has a different path for them (/heresy mode) - we should not let ourselves be discouraged that we live in a world where hearts are turned away from God. It is the nature of the Christian's path, just as it has always been. I know not whether this will change in the future, the exact meaning of Revelation has never been as clear to me as it apparently is for some. I think we can only put our best foot forward, and try to be the sort of Christian who humbly reflects the love and mercy of Christ, not the pride and self-satisfaction that too often we show.
[ 23. December 2013, 14:54: Message edited by: hugorune ]
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
Watching this thread with much interest, I have tried to join it, but my software has been disrupted by a 'patch' and an involuntary move to IE10.
However, I think one of the principal reasons for the decline must surely be the awareness most of us have of the way clever and inventive people have produced amazing and useful technology, enabling us to have some knowledge of the universe and
providing us with explanations that make more sense than the religious stories and which do not need any prayers to, acknowledgement of,orfaith in a god..
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
That'd be no. 3 on my list on the previous page.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Triple posting - and perhaps it's my hobby horse out for its daily canter - but the main reason for decline in the Western church IMNAAHO is that it's generally as boring as fuck if you don't want a social club specialising in beetle drives, garden fetes and coffee mornings for the elderly.
For me, it's impossible to find church boring, but that's because I discovered that I felt something really powerful in Eucharist. Like, soul-transforming.
But for people who don't have their mystical side switched on, or who don't celebrate Eucharist regularly, yeah, it could be boring. And just how you get a non-believer to understand that without a really good background in theology... I have nfi.
[ 23. December 2013, 15:05: Message edited by: hugorune ]
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A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
hugorune wrote:
The other side of it, is that most people in the West either don't feel - or won't admit to feeling - that there is anything wrong in their actions on a day to day basis. While I'm not on a crusade to judge others, I disagree. But for me, if I was not conscious of my own sin, would I be a Christian? The grace of God would have little meaning for me personally if I was blameless (ignoring the theological complexities of original sin). Am I more blessed that I feel guilt and shame, and thus the gift of Christ's redemption overwhelms me with gratitude, than those who are naive and know not that they need forgiveness from God? I'm really not up to telling them that they're going to hell, because I don't think that's what Christianity is really 'about'.
I took this para from your interesting post, as I think it sets out an interesting conundrum - is the key to Christianity an awareness of guilt?
This sounds rather negative to me, as if the path to God lies via self-recrimination.
It might be better to say that it lies via love. But even then, I'm not sure that people will be convinced by that.
In a country such as the UK, church has a bad reputation, I think - hypocrisy, stuffiness, reactionary attitudes. But the greatest enemy today is indifference not hostility. It's not an accident that 'whatever' is the mot du jour (the current catch-phrase).
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hugorune:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Triple posting - and perhaps it's my hobby horse out for its daily canter - but the main reason for decline in the Western church IMNAAHO is that it's generally as boring as fuck if you don't want a social club specialising in beetle drives, garden fetes and coffee mornings for the elderly.
For me, it's impossible to find church boring, but that's because I discovered that I felt something really powerful in Eucharist. Like, soul-transforming.
But for people who don't have their mystical side switched on, or who don't celebrate Eucharist regularly, yeah, it could be boring. And just how you get a non-believer to understand that without a really good background in theology... I have nfi.
My mystical side is as turned on as I think it's capable of being, I belong to a tradition that celebrates the Eucharist regularly, and my theological background is not too bad, but nevertheless, it's frequently boring. Especially the intercessions. It's not like we're just not gaining people - we're losing them. I think this is why. Great it works for you, but it frequently leaves me cold. Not the Eucharist itself, you understand, but the service that surrounds it is not infrequently a yawnfest.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
However, I think one of the principal reasons for the decline must surely be the awareness most of us have of the way clever and inventive people have produced amazing and useful technology, enabling us to have some knowledge of the universe and
providing us with explanations that make more sense than the religious stories and which do not need any prayers to, acknowledgement of,orfaith in a god..
As someone (Dawkins, maybe?) observed, Christians worship 'the God of the gaps' and as gaps decrease, there's less room for God to hide within them. I remember reading that. I remember understanding it, and agreeing with it. But I'm not a Christian because I believe in, for example, a literal Creation story. I'm quite happy to accept science's explanation of exactly what happened, and interpret the first chapter of Genesis in a mythical sense. Likewise, the fact that there are small contradictions in some Biblical accounts really doesn't bother me. Regardless of those, the mysteries of faith are very clearly set out, and taught down the ages by the apostles and their successors. The incarnation, the crucifixion, the resurrection, and the new life that we are given through Christ. That spiritual gift transforms us in spiritual reality, which is transcendent to the physical reality, and then will transform us in that physical reality as well.
This all makes sense to me. I don't know if it's a copout, in that I have no need to argue with secular scientists on those points where they and fundamentalists traditionally disagree, or if I'm just being pragmatic.
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A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My mystical side is as turned on as I think it's capable of being, I belong to a tradition that celebrates the Eucharist regularly, and my theological background is not too bad, but nevertheless, it's frequently boring. Especially the intercessions. It's not like we're just not gaining people - we're losing them. I think this is why. Great it works for you, but it frequently leaves me cold. Not the Eucharist itself, you understand, but the service that surrounds it is not infrequently a yawnfest.
I can appreciate that service can be a chore, particularly when you've been doing it for a long time - and liturgy is by it's very nature repetitive. I'm not sure what the answer is. One answer might be to pray (in a transformative as least as much as intercessionary sense, as all prayer should be) that your heart might be attentive, but you probably do that already. But tbh I'm really not qualified to give you advice. It's easy for me because I'm recently returned to the faith (and in a different tradition and with a different mindset) so I'm often discovering new things in the service, new insights, knowledge, and ways of thinking about things. The rest of the time, I'm just grateful to be there.
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A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
That'd be no. 3 on my list on the previous page.
Yes, and apologies for not quoting it and what several other people said and which I noted when listening through.
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hugorune:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
My mystical side is as turned on as I think it's capable of being, I belong to a tradition that celebrates the Eucharist regularly, and my theological background is not too bad, but nevertheless, it's frequently boring. Especially the intercessions. It's not like we're just not gaining people - we're losing them. I think this is why. Great it works for you, but it frequently leaves me cold. Not the Eucharist itself, you understand, but the service that surrounds it is not infrequently a yawnfest.
I can appreciate that service can be a chore, particularly when you've been doing it for a long time - and liturgy is by it's very nature repetitive. I'm not sure what the answer is. One answer might be to pray (in a transformative as least as much as intercessionary sense, as all prayer should be) that your heart might be attentive, but you probably do that already. But tbh I'm really not qualified to give you advice. It's easy for me because I'm recently returned to the faith (and in a different tradition and with a different mindset) so I'm often discovering new things in the service, new insights, knowledge, and ways of thinking about things. The rest of the time, I'm just grateful to be there.
Finding a variety of ways of doing it, that suit people of differing temperaments, probably helps. I am aware that the practice of our church is quite unusual and scares the horses over in Eccles, but for me I'm glad I found it.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
I took this para from your interesting post, as I think it sets out an interesting conundrum - is the key to Christianity an awareness of guilt?
This sounds rather negative to me, as if the path to God lies via self-recrimination.
I think it is, yeah. Do you have a better way of spinning it? ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I think it's pretty clear in the Bible that we all fall short of God's expectations to various degrees. It's sort of central to the whole point of why we need redemption in the first place. If anyone thinks they're good enough to stand in front of God and not be condemned, without being cleansed by Christ's blood, I would urge them to examine their consciences. And I don't think the church should ever shy away from that. We are not in the business of condeming anyone - but we are here to spread the good news - that God so loved the world, including all of us sinners, that he sent his Son to die on the cross, that we might be saved and have life eternal. Take any part of that away, and you lose the meaning. It's not a negative thing, but a positive, because that grace - of having your sins forgiven by a pure and just God - is such a powerful thing. For us, it transcends all the evil of the world, whatever happens when we die, we will be together in spiritual union with God and all the saints past present and future.
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A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
Posts: 47 | From: Melbourne | Registered: Aug 2013
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Religions mostly seem like guesswork to me. I'm not against guesswork, as it is probably important in human existence, but I think today in some cultures, people have become impatient with it.
On the other hand, there is a very fine aesthetic side to Christianity, and this is very important. For me, the eucharist seems to summarize existence, and as a guess, it is a beautiful one. Maybe that's good enough.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
hugorune
Thank you again for an excellent post.
I suppose it brings up several problems for me - first, guilt, since I have seen too much of it in my work (as a therapist). It is pernicious and destructive, and also ridiculously narcissistic.
Second, the notion of evil. Hmm. I suppose again the most 'evil' people I've met personally were violent (and self-destructive) men, but generally they were also very damaged people. Well, this could go off into a mini-dissertation, so I will spare you that!
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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SusanDoris
Incurable Optimist
# 12618
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Posted
hugorune
Pragmatism sounds like a very good idea to me! \I know exactly when I have suspended my disbelief to enjoy the myths!
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I know that you believe that you understood what you think I said, but I am not sure you realize that what you heard is not what I meant.
Posts: 3083 | From: UK | Registered: May 2007
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
But the full outworking of your model there, Muddy, is that it's the Holy Spirit's fault for not convicting people of sin ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
Yes I see that - I had that in the back of my mind when I was writing the post. I wouldn't use the word 'fault' - as if the HSp isn't doing his job properly, but maybe there is a case for saying that he is doing his task of convicting of son but that people's hearts are so hardened that the response to that conviction is not repentance but hostility and greater rebellion.
in these last days, while grace abounds, is God also allowing people to be given up to their passions, uncleanness and sin?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SusanDoris:
Watching this thread with much interest, I have tried to join it, but my software has been disrupted by a 'patch' and an involuntary move to IE10.
However, I think one of the principal reasons for the decline must surely be the awareness most of us have of the way clever and inventive people have produced amazing and useful technology, enabling us to have some knowledge of the universe and
providing us with explanations that make more sense than the religious stories and which do not need any prayers to, acknowledgement of,orfaith in a god..
And yet there are many professors and doctors who work in the fields of the sciences and who have a deep Christian faith because they can combine their knowledge and wonder at creation with faith in the creator.
The problem, I think, is media-led. As with politics, faith has a bad name because those with attractive, rational voices are often silenced in favour of cynical, populist, popular indeed, celebrity faces who combine atheism with comedy, science, art, music and lifestyle choices.
The voices the young hear - Stephen Fry, Frankie Boyle, Alun Davies, Jimmy Carr, Tim Minchin, etc, etc, etc are atheists and they speak loudly.
I was on the way home this afternoon and on the radio came THIS OFFERING
From the very second line it's an atheist's rant against faith. The song was played by Miranda Hart (one of my favourite comedians) and someother bloke, who both, at the end of the song said how wonderful it was, one of Minchins best - and so you have the BBC celebs endorsing and promoting the views held in that song.
Notice also that the Youtube clip of this atheist 'comedian' is from BBC Children in Need - an entire evening's telethon that is massively popular with young and old alike; and here in song is an atheistic cynical view being publicised to a vast audience that most singers never get on the BBC.
A slight bias here? Y'think!? ![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
The younger generation is listening to thios comedy, listening to godless music and there is nothing to compete with it - what could compete with it? The church simply isn't resourced in a way that we can compete with the voices of cynicism and atheism.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The younger generation is listening to thios comedy, listening to godless music and there is nothing to compete with it - what could compete with it? The church simply isn't resourced in a way that we can compete with the voices of cynicism and atheism.
Strangely lacking from your analysis is the frequency with which Christians in the public sphere open their mouths to say hateful and assholic things. And when one of them gets called on it, a noisy lynch mob of Christians descends on the critic and sullies the names of Christianity, religion, and faith even further. Christians really don't need noisy atheists; they're doing a good job killing off the church all by themselves.
And of course it's the assholity of certain things Christians in the public sphere say that creates noisy atheists. The cause of their militancy isn't that Christians are universally demonstrating the love of Christ. We are not being criticized and mocked for following Christ's model. We're being criticized and mocked for NOT living up to our savior's example, and slamming people who don't want to join us, or who don't follow the moral codes we think God has promulgated.
[ 23. December 2013, 17:02: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The younger generation is listening to thios comedy, listening to godless music and there is nothing to compete with it - what could compete with it? The church simply isn't resourced in a way that we can compete with the voices of cynicism and atheism.
Strangely lacking from your analysis is the frequency with which Christians in the public sphere open their mouths to say hateful and assholic things. And when one of them gets called on it, a noisy lynch mob of Christians descend on the critic and sully the names of Christianity, religion, and faith even further. Christians really don't need noisy atheists; they're doing a good job killing off the church all by themselves.
And of course it's the assholity of certain things Christians in the public sphere say that creates noisy atheists. The cause of their militancy isn't that Christians are universally demonstrating the love of Christ. We are not being criticized and mocked for following Christ's model. We're being criticized and mocked for NOT living up to our savior's example, and slamming people who don't want to join us, or who don't follow the moral codes we think God has promulgated.
I gave some names and an example - can you do the same?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I think Muddy is onto something - but wouldn't necessarily see the outworking of God drawing people to himself in as prescriptive a way ... although I'd certainly say that it includes the things he's mentioned ... but is way, way, way, way, way bigger than that ... as I'm sure he'd agree.
The tricky part comes in what we do about it. If people have lost a sense of sin and the need for salvation, how do we somehow restore that sense ... without coming over as preachy, judgemental and holier-than-thou?
That's a tricky thing to achieve.
In medieval times they stuck momento-mori about the place and painted lurid frescoes of hell-fire and damnation ...
As Mudfrog has noted elsewhere on these boards, taken in a highly literalised way - demons with horns and tails and so on - such depictions can be counter-productive.
It may surprise him to hear that I'm not opposed to old-fashioned 'gospel preaching' and so on ... and I'd prefer it to the kind of soft-soap, nicey-nicey 'spirituality makes you feel better about yourself' kind of approach that is prevalent in some quarters.
We need a rigorous and robust approach.
I don't know what the answers are ... but I would say that given the way things have gone in all sectors of Christianity, we now, perhaps more than ever, need to 'earn the right' to a hearing.
I'd suggest that the SA have part of the answer to that as they gain respect through the work they do with the poor, the marginalised and so on. Spot on.
That's not the whole answer of course - and I'd suggest that individually or as individual faith-communities none of us have that and need each other.
But it is a start.
One of the problems we've got is that in a post-modern and cynical age it's hard to project conviction of any kind without coming across as some kind of demagogue or judgmental creep.
I don't share Beeswax Altar's politics and world-view particularly, but I can sympathise with his account of the dilemma the TEC is facing.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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hugorune
Apprentice
# 17793
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A slight bias here? Y'think!?
The younger generation is listening to thios comedy, listening to godless music and there is nothing to compete with it - what could compete with it? The church simply isn't resourced in a way that we can compete with the voices of cynicism and atheism.
Well, most of the time that the younger generation hear someone represent the church, it's in the context of the 'dead horse' type issues. The young person might hold to a viewpoint on a controversial social issue that they consider to be compassionate and informed, but they see some high-profile pastor quoted as saying that, for example, God sent deadly bushfires to punish a state because it permits abortions in some circumstances.
And the media just laps that sort of rubbish up. People think this is what Christians are all about.
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A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
Oh, and if those are too American, Ian Paisley and Mary Whitehouse.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
We need a rigorous and robust approach.
Presumably, somewhere there are studies showing relative rates of decline for different denominations and then within them find out what seems best at slowing the decline ... then follow the example.
I can see a few problems however.
quote:
I'd suggest that the SA have part of the answer to that as they gain respect through the work they do with the poor, the marginalised and so on. Spot on.
The other most highly respected group (in my experience) are Quakers. Even friends who turn purple and emit steam from their ears at the word 'religion' tend to add ... 'except the Quakers of course' (to which some add the SA).
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I'd second that ... the Quakers are almost universally admired and most people - at least on this side of the Pond - seem to respect the SA.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Grokesx
Shipmate
# 17221
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Posted
@Mudfrog quote:
From the very second line it's an atheist's rant against faith.
You really think that's a rant? It's more about loving your family, surely?
The Pope one, yeah, that's a rant.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
Posts: 373 | From: Derby, UK | Registered: Jul 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Mudfrog, Mousethief has mentioned Ian Paisley and Mary Whitehouse so he's not restricting 'assholic' tendencies to the US.
Mind you, if he is exporting them then he ought to adopt the idiom of the intended destination and refer to them as 'arseholic'.
Of course, it's both/and rather than either/or ...
Christians have acted like berks ... when have they not done so? we are all sinners and all imperfect.
'My name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you ...'
I don't believe, though, that we can blame the decline of Christianity in the West entirely on the churches and individual Christians though.
There are a whole range of factors, many of which have nothing to do with how well, badly or indifferently Christians have or haven't behaved.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh, and if those are too American, Ian Paisley and Mary Whitehouse.
Hardly contemporary, I feel.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I am no Calvinist but there are three verses that intrigue me:
"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him." John 6 v 44
"And when he (The Holy Spirit) comes, he will convict the world of its sin, and of God's righteousness, and of the coming judgment." John 16 v 8
"And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved." Acts 2 v 47
Taken together they tell me that people come to salvation firstly because the Holy Spirit who reveals sin in their lives, then the Father reveals Jesus to them as their Saviour, then he brings them into the life of the Body of Christ.
I have been coming to the conclusion for a long time now that the reason the church is unpopular, irrelevant and ignored is down to one fact: people no longer believe they need salvation and redemption from sin.
Until and unless they have that inner conviction anything the church says about morality and sin is going to sound judgmental and proscriptive - understandably so because we are talking to the mind and not to the heart.
I think therefore we have a spiritual problem.
As much as you may think of me as a godless liberal, I think I rather agree with you. I think I might highlight different areas that are indicative of spiritual emptiness and sin - for instance, IMO corporate greed is a major one, as are things like the lack of healthcare provision in the USA and other countries - but I absolutely believe in sin and absolutely believe in the need for people to be cleansed of that sin by repentence and belief in Christ.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Christians really don't need noisy atheists; they're doing a good job killing off the church all by themselves.
And of course it's the assholity of certain things Christians in the public sphere say that creates noisy atheists. The cause of their militancy isn't that Christians are universally demonstrating the love of Christ. We are not being criticized and mocked for following Christ's model. We're being criticized and mocked for NOT living up to our savior's example, and slamming people who don't want to join us, or who don't follow the moral codes we think God has promulgated.
Agreed. I know it's harder to get media coverage, but wouldn't it be great if there were more stories of Christians and churches doing wonderful, self-sacrificial things than of those things mousethief mentioned? One example of the former does come to mind, and that's when a Christian responds with forgiveness and a lack of judgement after, for example, a loved one has been murdered. That seems to be considered newsworthy and is a great example of living as our Saviour did.
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh, and if those are too American, Ian Paisley and Mary Whitehouse.
Hardly contemporary, I feel.
...and unlike Stephen Fry et al, they are not on the TV every night.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
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# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
I gave some names and an example - can you do the same?
Pat Robertson
Phil Robertson
Anti-gay rape threats
Church votes to exclude blacks from membership
Christian death threats aimed at atheist
Reverend Dennis Terry tells liberals and non-Christians to get out of America.
Good now?
Must be confined to your country then.
Thanks to the internet, they are well-known to young people in the UK, so it's not confined to the US at all.
Given the Dead Horse issues the church is dealing with in the UK, why does it surprise you that people have a negative reaction towards church? It's not atheist comedians and others making people feel this way, rather people feel this way and this is reflected in the people they enjoy watching on TV and elsewhere in the media.
Perhaps if the church worked harder not to be joyless, sexist, homophobic idiots who are totally out of touch with people's lives and needs, this wouldn't happen as much. Where are the non-sexist, non-homophobic Christian youtube stars? Where are the churches speaking out against issues that matter to people, instead of Dead Horses that make the church into an irrelevant dinosaur?
Some groups like Church Action on Poverty with the 'Britain Isn't Eating' poster and so on are helping, but there's a lack of joined up thinking. Sexism is a justice issue tied up with poverty, for instance - women are consistently the lowest-paid workers.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Oh, and if those are too American, Ian Paisley and Mary Whitehouse.
Hardly contemporary, I feel.
...and unlike Stephen Fry et al, they are not on the TV every night.
Perhaps has something to do with the fact that Stephen Fry is a better example of Christian goodness than Mary Whitehouse and Ian Paisley ever were or ever will be.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
Mary Whitehouse meant well, and I certainly don't hate her for campaigning against what she saw as the corruption of the nation's morals. John Wesley and others whom the church still expects us to admire would probably have been just worried. But she made the mistake of envisioning Britain as a Christian nation, even though Christendom, as the 'emergents' have it, was irretrievably dying.
Despite arguing above that clergy in nice MOTR churches should share their liberal theological perspectives with intellectuals and non-intellectuals alike in their congregations, I realise that this will only happen sporadically, because even the liberals don't want to upset the old church ladies with this sort of thing. So there may well be misguided old ladies like Mary Whitehouse in the future who for want of knowledge don't realise that the world has moved on and that what they have to say is irrelevant.
Even my Pentecostal mother doesn't think Mary Whitehouse achieved very much.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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South Coast Kevin
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# 16130
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Posted
For a contemporary version of Mary Whitehouse, what about Christian Voice? (Their website and Wikipedia article) They - or rather 'he' as it always seems to be 'Stephen Green of Christian Voice' - have said some pretty controversial and IMO unpleasant things over the last few years, haven't they?
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My blog - wondering about Christianity in the 21st century, chess, music, politics and other bits and bobs.
Posts: 3309 | From: The south coast (of England) | Registered: Jan 2011
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
And how about the dichotomy of the ever-so-Loving God who will have conniptions if you ever do anything wrong, and who will go so far as to cast you into a fiery pit (while still loving you, of course)
Back to my suggestion about WW1 as a turning point: The idea that the church wasn't cutting it developed in the Edwardian era, but was made popular by the terrible events of WW1. This was particularly true for the people who had grown up in the class society prewar, and who had seen what a bunch of incompetents, bullies and liars the "better" people were. The church had supported "the rich man in his castle and the poor man at his gate" and was then seen as the supporter of the class divide (just as the church is now seen as the supporter of homophobia and misogyny)
WW2 just set the anti-class thing firmly, by confirming the suspicions of the workers, plus getting rid of the idea of Empire, which left many of the upper-middles bereft and servantless.
I read a book by John Humphrey (In God We Doubt, I think) in which he described being at his grandmother's on holiday. The lady did not go to church one Sunday, so the Parson took it upon himself to erupt into her kitchen, berate her for the lack of attendance and demand that she attend the next Sunday (not request). That scene probably set JH on a career of church-avoidance, if not outright atheism: why would one go to a place where that kind of demand and that anger were seen as proper?
The same happened in Quebec: until the 1950's Quebec was more Catholic than Poland. Even the swear-words of the workers were religious terminology (rather than bodily function). Then, suddenly, everyone realised that the Emperor had no clothes, and the church-attendance arte is now the lowest in Canada. The disruptions of WW2 plus the advent of television probably explain this.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
The US is different because there never was one national church that was associated with the elite but also could enforce the socioeconomic order because of the diversity of its members and its power over them. The Episcopal Church in colonial Virginia, the Congregational Church in Colonial Massachusetts, and the Dutch Reformed Church in parts of Colonial New York came close, but once denominational diversity and disestablishment came to these areas they lost much of their power. The Episcopal Church and the Presbyterian Church (USA) are still associated with the wealthy and professional upper middle class, but have become small enough that they really don't exerting influence on popular culture. The Roman Catholic Church certainly enforced social hierarchies among its own members - but at the same time fought for a more fair distribution of income/wealth in society. It never became associated with the establishment because of the anti-Catholicism that was very widespread in this country for much of its history.
Young people raised outside of a religious context do see conservative Evangelical Protestantism and Roman Catholicism as being in bed with right-wing politicians, but this is a phenomenon of only the last few decades.
America is secularizing, but much later and much more slowly than Europe. Immigrant groups often come to resemble the wider population in terms of religious observance in the third or fourth generation. African-Americans do report a high degree of religious belief in surveys, but I'm not sure that church attendance is not also decreasing among them only more slowly.
Society has become so individualistic and people are so able to construct their own identities that the normative community offered by church congregations (or even by fraternal or benevolent organizations like Rotary) no longer really seem necessary for a lot of young people. People are too Moore and attention spans are too short to grow deep roots in any tradition. Of course there are exceptions but I think they will continue to get rarer and rarer.
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
That word 'individualistic' seems important to me. I keep thinking of people that I know who are spiritual or religious, and many of them have rather idiosyncratic blends of ideas, New Age, pagan, Eastern, and so on, which they don't attempt to turn into something coherent.
Of course, probably there are a large number of people who are not even interested in stuff like that. In the UK, secularism has gone pretty deep now - I remember after the royal wedding hearing people say, 'what is that stuff they were spouting?', meaning the religious service. It sounds alien to many.
I think this is irreversible, but still, I think some people have a spiritual need, so I haven't a clue how that will be met in the future, incoherently I suppose.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
If the super-star philosopher Charles Taylor is to be believed, the prime virtue of the young people today is not striving to conform oneself to an ideal, but authenticityto express one's true, inner self through carefully chosen religious beliefs, political ideas, taste in art and music, and through consumer products.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I'd second that ... the Quakers are almost universally admired and most people - at least on this side of the Pond - seem to respect the SA.
The SA yes - every officer I've known has been a real example to me and to others.
But, the Quakers? Most people have never heard of them outside of a brand of porridge. Many in the evangelical wings of the church who have heard of them, wouldn't recognise many of the UK manifestations of Quakers as fellow Christian travellers. They have to have their own "status" in local groups of Churches Together and won't assent to a belief in Christ just one to a belief in the "spirit of Christ." On a personal level the passive - aggressiveness I've encountered from many Quakers is not winsome or at all attractive. They've strayed a long way from their roots IME.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hugorune:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
A slight bias here? Y'think!?
The younger generation is listening to thios comedy, listening to godless music and there is nothing to compete with it - what could compete with it? The church simply isn't resourced in a way that we can compete with the voices of cynicism and atheism.
Well, most of the time that the younger generation hear someone represent the church, it's in the context of the 'dead horse' type issues. The young person might hold to a viewpoint on a controversial social issue that they consider to be compassionate and informed, but they see some high-profile pastor quoted as saying that, for example, God sent deadly bushfires to punish a state because it permits abortions in some circumstances.
And the media just laps that sort of rubbish up. People think this is what Christians are all about.
And yet week by week there are ministers, youth leaders, Christian parents, friends, maybe a couple of teachers, who speak lovingly, act kindly, teach the truth in love.
If I were to ask my 3 sons (18, 22 &25) who Mary Whitehouse, Ian Paisley, Stephen Green and Dennis Terry were (even I don't know who he is), they would have no idea. These people are not on their radar.
However they know who Stephen Fry, Russell Brand, Dr Brian Cox, Alun Davies, Tim Minchkin, and the like, are.
My point is that they don't listen to religious conversations, they don't listen to political dialogues but they do watch QI, they do watch Mock the Week, they do know that Brian Cox presents science from an atheist's view, they are aware that the media-beloved Richard Dawkins uses his elevated education to sneer, ridicule and scorn anyone with any kind of religious sensibilities. They do know that late night comedians like Frankie Boyle frequently and sarcastically cynically mock all forms of religion.
They do know that there is hardly anyone on popular television who would be allowed to speak up for the Christian faith without being entirely shot down in flames.
I can't remember the last time Stephen Green was interviewed over an issue - it must be 3 or 4 years ago and even then he's only wheeled in to a morning TV chat show.
Speaking of which, I've seen these programmes, presented by Nicky Campbell usually, where the producer has so arranged the programme - and even the seating - so that whenever a Christian speaks they are immediately barracked by the obligatory ex-priest, the atheist, the sneering critic and the so-called 'Christian' who it appears is more universalist than any Universalist Unitarian minister! I have watched these programmes and been amazed at how any view expressed by a Christian, however rationally and gently, is greeted with abuse and rarely does the Christian voice get a fair hearing and the ability to explain his argument.
So, I do not agree that young people are exposed on a regular basis to 'Christian' voices that speak into their culture with hateful language that proves Christian faith to be all those things we are condemned for.
I don't believe that the true voice of Christianity is given a fair hearing within the media - though thank God for people like John Sentamu, Justin Welby and Pope Francis - though they are hardly on MTV, Mock the Week or QI!
I do believe that there is a media bias towards the young and that entertainment for the teens and twenties is godless, lacking in compassion and spirituality, foul-mouthed, immoral and anti-authority.
And because young people respect those who make them laugh and are 'cool' they listen to their views, they take on those views believing them to be the majority view: when in actual fact those views and attitudes are not representative, though sadly, increasingly so.
[ 24. December 2013, 07:03: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I'd second that ... the Quakers are almost universally admired and most people - at least on this side of the Pond - seem to respect the SA.
But, the Quakers? Most people have never heard of them outside of a brand of porridge. Many in the evangelical wings of the church who have heard of them, wouldn't recognise many of the UK manifestations of Quakers as fellow Christian travellers. They have to have their own "status" in local groups of Churches Together and won't assent to a belief in Christ just one to a belief in the "spirit of Christ." On a personal level the passive - aggressiveness I've encountered from many Quakers is not winsome or at all attractive. They've strayed a long way from their roots IME.
That view resonates with me. In all the years I have been associated with Churches Together - and I've been both vice-Chair and Chair - I have been surprised at the 'strength' - if I can put it that way - of the Quaker approach to discussing issues and the issues themselves! They have their agenda and are not averse to forcing that agenda onto the local CT programme and getting rather shirty when people don't agree. I;'ve seen CT meetings taken over by rants and demands about getting rid of trident and how we must all fight climate change. They didn't seem to be interested in any actually local church worship or outreach. The consequence of having a Quaker Chair (and, I kid you not, a Unitarian secretary) who followed an aggressively Sea of Faith Chair who had been in power for a number of years, means that the CT in my City which includes two Cathedrals, three parish churches, a large Methodist church, a University Church, the Quakers (sadly) and The Salvation Army, is basically non-existent and when it does meet basically talks amongst itself about liberal issues and the hobby-horses of those who can be bothered to attend - which includes no clergy and about a dozen people who fit well together.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Muddy - Mock the Week may not be your best evidence. One of the regulars, Milton Jones, is a Christian.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
Christianity today strikes me as an echo-chamber. If you are inside, all the words and ideas make sense, and you can communicate with each other, and have disagreements and so on.
But from the outside, it looks like a group of people gesticulating and using words, in ways that seem bizarre and exotic.
I suppose historically, the culture at large used to embrace this sub-culture, and there was a kind of interchange, but today, that link seems to be very frayed.
It seems quite sad, like being at a wake.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Exclamation Mark - on the following ...
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
Yes, I'd second that ... the Quakers are almost universally admired and most people - at least on this side of the Pond - seem to respect the SA.
The SA yes - every officer I've known has been a real example to me and to others.
But, the Quakers? ... They've strayed a long way from their roots IME.
On the level of personal experience, I would agree - both with your comments on the SA and on the Quakers. I've had positive interactions with Quakers more recently but during my university days found them to be obnoxious and self-righteous politically-correct pains in the arse.
But I can only speak as I find, and as I speak to people I find that those with something of an historical awareness admire the Quakers for their early stance against slavery, for the philanthropic work of Quaker industrialists like the Cadbury's and Rowntrees etc. I know people from Birmingham and York who would never hear a bad word said about either dynasty.
I'm not talking about a groundswell of public opinion here but if I were to list the Christian - or quasi-Christian - groups I've heard most positive comments about from people who aren't regularly involved in churches of any kind, then the SA and the Quakers would top the list.
In fact, they would be the list. They ARE the list ... The SA first and Quakers second after a wide margin.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
The consequence of having a Quaker Chair (and, I kid you not, a Unitarian secretary) who followed an aggressively Sea of Faith Chair who had been in power for a number of years, means that the CT in my City which includes two Cathedrals, three parish churches, a large Methodist church, a University Church, the Quakers (sadly) and The Salvation Army, is basically non-existent and when it does meet basically talks amongst itself about liberal issues and the hobby-horses of those who can be bothered to attend - which includes no clergy and about a dozen people who fit well together.
We had a similar situation here some years ago; the mainstream Christians and (especially) the Evangelicals would have nothing to do with our CT group. The Evos had their own group too, with very little crossover between the two. Eventually we closed down the CT group and the Evo group collapsed for other reasons; a new "network" was formed but it hasn't been too successful in crossing the denominational and theological barriers.
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Exclamation Mark - on the following ...
I find that those with something of an historical awareness admire the Quakers for their early stance against slavery, for the philanthropic work of Quaker industrialists like the Cadbury's and Rowntrees etc. I know people from Birmingham and York who would never hear a bad word said about either dynasty.
An historical influence but hardly a contemporary one. My experience resonates with that of Mudfrog: Quakers getting out of their tree on Nuclear Weapons and somehow missing the real issues on their doorstep.
They can get pretty nasty when put to proof on some stuff too and as for insisting on their form of prayer to open meetings .... well the next time I want to centre, I'll use a com pass mate.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
That view resonates with me. In all the years I have been associated with Churches Together - and I've been both vice-Chair and Chair - I have been surprised at the 'strength' - if I can put it that way - of the Quaker approach to discussing issues and the issues themselves! They have their agenda and are not averse to forcing that agenda onto the local CT programme and getting rather shirty when people don't agree. I;'ve seen CT meetings taken over by rants and demands about getting rid of trident and how we must all fight climate change. They didn't seem to be interested in any actually local church worship or outreach.
That's all horribly familiar - and it's been so in very part of the UK I've worked in. Tbh a lot of evangelical churches dip out entirely or keep on the margins of Churches Together for these every reason. Quakerism is hardly mainstream Christianity (it allows for no credal beliefs and so basically anything can go) and in a good number of expressions is not Christian at all.
[fixed further code decline]
[ 24. December 2013, 10:17: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Sure, I agree with all of that ExclamationMark, but the next - first - time I hear someone who isn't connected with church say something positive about the Baptists (or Anglicans for that matter) rather than the SA or the Quakers I'll drop you a line straightaway ...
I rather suspect you'll be waiting for a long time ...
FWIW, I enjoyed the only visit I've ever made to a Quaker meeting, but did notice that one of the Friends had a bee in her bonnet about another Friend bringing chocolate biscuits for the after meeting cuppa rather than some kind of healthy, wholesome Fairly Traded snack ...
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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