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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Western Church Decline
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Quakerism is hardly mainstream Christianity (it allows for no credal beliefs and so basically anything can go) and in a good number of expressions is not Christian at all.
Yet, strangely, the Quakers are still members of CTE while the Unitarians are only "observers". I think this goes back to some historical precedent in the old British Council of Churches.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
The next - first - time I hear someone who isn't connected with church say something positive about the Baptists (or Anglicans for that matter) rather than the SA or the Quakers I'll drop you a line straightaway ...
Easter Sunday's main BBC news led off with "the Baptist Union, the Methodist Church, the United Ref0rmed Church and the Church of Scotland ..." - the item was about a report published jointly on Poverty (and attitudes to it) within Britain. Definitely a first, and could only have happened at Easter or Christmas!
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
Happy Christmas Mudfrog. I liked your line
Why is Europe dying while the rest of the world is growing at amazing rates?
In more ways than one officer. I've been reading Philip Jenkins (The Next Christendom) who draws some interesting conclusions from demographic change.
Apparently, in 2000 the combined populations of the eight most populous European states was around 535 million. By 2025 this is projected to decline to around 519 million, a decline projected to accelerate significantly by mid-century to around 465 million - a 13% reduction.
In order to keep population stable, it needs a fertility rate of 2.1 children per woman. Of the 23 countries reporting fertility rates lower than 1.5, all but three are European.
Conversely, the southern hemisphere is experiencing a population boom. In 2000 the combined population of the eight largest nations in sub-Saharan Africa numbered around 400 million. By 2050 this will rise substantially, even with the impact of AIDS and could exceed a billion. The same is true for Asia and, in particular, South America. Mexico, for example, grew from 15 million people in 1900 to around 100 million by 2050. Whilst this phenomenal growth is slowing, it is still significantly faster than Europe. Jenkins suggests that between 2000 and 2050, population growth in the eight largest Latin American nations will be around 40%. European nations are getting older (proportion of people 65+ is around 16 -18%), whilst Southern Hemisphere nations are significantly younger (3-4% 65+, with median age under 20, compared to European median ages in their late 30's and rising).
So what? Well it's the countries with the largest population growth that also have large numbers of growing Christian communities. And as Europe ages and needs younger workers it will attract larger numbers from these nations to fill gaps in its labour markets. The effect this has on churches is already being seen in London (where the percentage of the population that are Christians is rising). The church census for 2012 showed around one in four Christians were from black or minority ethnic communities.
There are other - mission focused - churches that are bucking the declining trend. It's no surprise to see trends and counter trends operating in a country with 62 odd million citizens. Characteristics of these churches? Stuff like living relatively simply (counter materialism), believing in an interventionist God (as opposed to functionally atheistic), open and embracing (as opposed to sectarian) and who build communities that people of no faith see as relevant to their daily lives.
So keep up the sterling work Mr Mudfrog - we're not ready to be retired just yet.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Well it's the countries with the largest population growth that also have large numbers of growing Christian communities. And as Europe ages and needs younger workers it will attract larger numbers from these nations to fill gaps in its labour markets. The effect this has on churches is already being seen in London (where the percentage of the population that are Christians is rising). The church census for 2012 showed around one in four Christians were from black or minority ethnic communities.
All this is true ... yet it seems to be a kind of statistical cheating. For the percentage of Christians within most traditional white British or European communities seems to be falling like a stone. So, clearly, the Church and/or the Faith aren't ticking these folks' boxes, whatever may be happening in other sectors of society.
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
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Posted
I really wonder what will happen in Brazil. In the last Century, more and more people were Catholic in name only. Evangelicalism (driven mostly by the exodus from the inland) spurred some kind of a revival, but I'm not sure whether it can hold up when the country continues to modernize.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Well it's the countries with the largest population growth that also have large numbers of growing Christian communities. And as Europe ages and needs younger workers it will attract larger numbers from these nations to fill gaps in its labour markets. The effect this has on churches is already being seen in London (where the percentage of the population that are Christians is rising). The church census for 2012 showed around one in four Christians were from black or minority ethnic communities.
All this is true ... yet it seems to be a kind of statistical cheating. For the percentage of Christians within most traditional white British or European communities seems to be falling like a stone. So, clearly, the Church and/or the Faith aren't ticking these folks' boxes, whatever may be happening in other sectors of society.
Seasons greetings Mr T. No cheats here - just looking a bit deeper under the headlines to see what's going on in more detail. So yeah, you're point is dead right. My point is that there are trends within trends. So despite the overall trend of decline, there is also a strain of church growth. Remains to be seen in the long one which will be more significant, but there's enough evidence knocking around to show that the church is not inevitably doomed to be swallowed up by the prevailing secular culture.
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Truman White:
Well it's the countries with the largest population growth that also have large numbers of growing Christian communities. And as Europe ages and needs younger workers it will attract larger numbers from these nations to fill gaps in its labour markets. The effect this has on churches is already being seen in London (where the percentage of the population that are Christians is rising). The church census for 2012 showed around one in four Christians were from black or minority ethnic communities.
All this is true ... yet it seems to be a kind of statistical cheating. For the percentage of Christians within most traditional white British or European communities seems to be falling like a stone. So, clearly, the Church and/or the Faith aren't ticking these folks' boxes, whatever may be happening in other sectors of society.
There is something endearing about it though; we're losing all the white folks, but we're really packing in the immigrants! Aw, bless. How to make the best of a bad job. Next week, how to move a few statistics around, so that a decline is actually a kind of patchy increase.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
Does this mean that UKIP, the Daily Mail and the Express are inherently anti-Christian? ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
@Q
Festive felicitations to you too me ol' mate ![[Biased]](wink.gif) .
You said
There is something endearing about it though; we're losing all the white folks, but we're really packing in the immigrants! Aw, bless. How to make the best of a bad job. Next week, how to move a few statistics around, so that a decline is actually a kind of patchy increase.
There's a "both/and" here - the decline is a decline, and the patchy increase is a patchy increase. That's my point mate - in a large cohort data set you can have a trend and a counter-trend. Given the size and complexity of the sample that shouldn't be a great surprise.
By the way, it's not just immigrant churches that are growing. I'm Christmasing with rellies in God's own county (Yorkshire for you good people overseas from here). There are significant large and growing - mainly white British - churches in Sheffield and Leeds (for example), and since around 1980 to about 2005 (when I stopped counting) York had a new Christian congregation popping up at a rate of one a year.
Life in the old dog yet I'd say.
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[ 24. December 2013, 14:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Does this mean that UKIP, the Daily Mail and the Express are inherently anti-Christian?
I thought we knew that anyway.
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Grokesx
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# 17221
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Posted
@TW quote:
So what? Well it's the countries with the largest population growth that also have large numbers of growing Christian communities. And as Europe ages and needs younger workers it will attract larger numbers from these nations to fill gaps in its labour markets. The effect this has on churches is already being seen in London (where the percentage of the population that are Christians is rising). The church census for 2012 showed around one in four Christians were from black or minority ethnic communities.
I for one find this chillingly grotesque. Those countries with the largest population growth, as well as the growing Christian communities also have grinding poverty, staggeringly high levels of child mortality, starvation and malnutrition, lack of basic health care and the rest of it. Are you really saying that getting a few lucky ones over here boosting church numbers is a good thing?
How would it be from your perspective if these countries became more prosperous and egalitarian, and at the same time - as seems to be the case nearly everywhere else - less populous, but also less religious?
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
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Truman White
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# 17290
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Posted
@Grokesk
Sounds like you're saying Christianity only thrives in areas of grinding poverty etc . Bit over simplistic that one. Christianity's proved highly resilient in the US, even as its wealth and general prosperity has increased, Brazil has a higher GDP than the UK (yeah, and more entrenched social problems among its poor) and immigrants don't seem to be losing their faith by coming into the 'affluent' UK.
Mind you, I reckon you're right in saying that increased affluence is one of the factors in the decline of Western European Christianity - affluence as a damper to faith is an issue as old as Amos. But it's not a universal given.
Have a cool Yule Mr G - catch up in 2014.
[ 24. December 2013, 13:44: Message edited by: Truman White ]
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que sais-je
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# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
Quakerism is hardly mainstream Christianity (it allows for no credal beliefs and so basically anything can go) and in a good number of expressions is not Christian at all.
And yet, in the popular imagination it is highly regarded, as are the SA.
The OP asked why Western churches are in decline - and lots of people have given answers many of which seem to reflect their views as Christians. They may not be the best people to know why people don't go to church.
But many non-church going people do seem to see Quakers/SA as admirable - including a lot who have absolutely no time for any other denomination. There are no doubt many obnoxious Quakers and Salvationists. Maybe Quakers aren't really Christians at all, but they are seen by many as what Christianity should be about: comforting the afflicted and speaking truth to power.
I doubt than most of those you'd like to see in your churches care much about creeds, theologies and doctrinal niceties. Indeed that's why lots of us don't belong. If you want lots of people in your churches you either try to be the sort of people that most of us outside admire and would like to emulate, or convince us that Christianity isn't really about doing what Jesus would have done.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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# 76
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Posted
It's little things as well. We're visiting aged parents this Christmas, but found no information on the parish church noticeboard or website as to the times of Christmas services. Now, as an "insider" I was determined enough to find out (via their Facebook site as it happens), but what would the message to a complete outsider have been?
Not intended, but nevertheless...
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
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ExclamationMark
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# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
1. Sure, I agree with all of that ExclamationMark, but the next - first - time I hear someone who isn't connected with church say something positive about the Baptists (or Anglicans for that matter) rather than the SA or the Quakers I'll drop you a line straightaway ...
I rather suspect you'll be waiting for a long time ...
2. FWIW, I enjoyed the only visit I've ever made to a Quaker meeting, but did notice that one of the Friends had a bee in her bonnet about another Friend bringing chocolate biscuits for the after meeting cuppa rather than some kind of healthy, wholesome Fairly Traded snack ...
1. Please do - I'll be as surprised as you when it happens.
2. Yep that's about the long and short of it for them - all the while there'll be families on the doorstep who can't afford either.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
FWIW, I enjoyed the only visit I've ever made to a Quaker meeting, but did notice that one of the Friends had a bee in her bonnet about another Friend bringing chocolate biscuits for the after meeting cuppa rather than some kind of healthy, wholesome Fairly Traded snack ...
Yep that's about the long and short of it for them - all the while there'll be families on the doorstep who can't afford either.
Some Quakers are small minded and petty. Not everyone gives all they have to the more needy. How unlike .... (fill in your preferred denomination/group).
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Grokesx
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# 17221
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Posted
quote:
Sounds like you're saying Christianity only thrives in areas of grinding poverty etc . Bit over simplistic that one. Christianity's proved highly resilient in the US, even as its wealth and general prosperity has increased, Brazil has a higher GDP than the UK
Which is why I was careful to say more prosperous and egalitarian. Still simplistic, but it's a hypothetical that doesn't affect the questions I asked. Which it doesn't look like you are going to answer. Fair enough.
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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Does this mean that UKIP, the Daily Mail and the Express are inherently anti-Christian?
They have much the same relationship to Christianity as the sort of pre-exilic temple Judaism that Isaiah and Jeremiah lay into, had to the true worship of the LORD.
By the way, Karl, I'd be rather more impressed with the bona fides of the song you linked us to, if its proprietors hadn't pleaded copyright to block our ability to hear its message. Did Isaiah and Jeremiah say 'this is the word of the LORD but if you want to hear what He might be saying to you, you've got to buy our CD?'
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je
Maybe Quakers aren't really Christians at all, but they are seen by many as what Christianity should be about: comforting the afflicted and speaking truth to power.
Do the Quakers these days do much of either of those?
I suspect for most of those who say they admire the Quakers, what they like is the idea of the Quakers and a vague sense that they are totally unthreatening, so that you don't have to do anything about them. I suspect next to none of those who say they admire them have ever been to a Meeting.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je
Maybe Quakers aren't really Christians at all, but they are seen by many as what Christianity should be about: comforting the afflicted and speaking truth to power.
Do the Quakers these days do much of either of those?
I suspect for most of those who say they admire the Quakers, what they like is the idea of the Quakers and a vague sense that they are totally unthreatening, so that you don't have to do anything about them. I suspect next to none of those who say they admire them have ever been to a Meeting.
For all I know the Quakers are an appalling bunch of misfits, wimps and hypercrites - and probably vegetarians as well. That isn't the point which was that many people are put off religion by what they think religious people are like and what sort of things seem important to them. What they think (perhaps wrongly) Quakers and Salvationists are like seems more admirable.
Maybe the outsiders perception is wrong, nevertheless if you are concerned with Church decline it would be worth looking at what many outsiders think a church should be like rather than what insiders think should change.
A vague sense that they are totally unthreatening, so that you don't have to do anything about them. Like you I live in Bristol, in my case the edge of St Pauls. I haven't come across any threatening churches. They all seem very friendly and unthreatening to me.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Mudfrog, did you bother reading my reply to you regarding 'atheist' comedians? Milton Jones and Tim Vine are both Christians and regularly on TV. Rev Richard Coles has been a guest on QI several times. It would help if you knew what you were talking about, and could spell Alan Davies' name....
Re the SA being well-respected, the SA's homophobia is definitely affecting this amongst young people. Many people I know boycott the SA and refuse to donate because of this. Have had it confirmed by SA collectors that they refuse to help LGBTQ people and will ask them to leave the premises. And you know, all this.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
@Exclamation Mark - on the following ...
I find that those with something of an historical awareness admire the Quakers for their early stance against slavery, for the philanthropic work of Quaker industrialists like the Cadbury's and Rowntrees etc. I know people from Birmingham and York who would never hear a bad word said about either dynasty.
An historical influence but hardly a contemporary one. My experience resonates with that of Mudfrog: Quakers getting out of their tree on Nuclear Weapons and somehow missing the real issues on their doorstep.
They can get pretty nasty when put to proof on some stuff too and as for insisting on their form of prayer to open meetings .... well the next time I want to centre, I'll use a com pass mate.
Would that more mainstream Christians were as politically aware as the Quakers. Their stance on equality, liberty and justice for all puts many churches to shame. Their stance on Dead Horses no doubt attracts a lot of people.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would that more mainstream Christians were as politically aware as the Quakers. Their stance on equality, liberty and justice for all puts many churches to shame. Their stance on Dead Horses no doubt attracts a lot of people.
I think you will find that strand of thought very much present in the URC and among some Methodists.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Would that more mainstream Christians were as politically aware as the Quakers. Their stance on equality, liberty and justice for all puts many churches to shame. Their stance on Dead Horses no doubt attracts a lot of people.
I think you will find that strand of thought very much present in the URC and among some Methodists.
Oh absolutely. But do they shout loud enough about this?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Garasu
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# 17152
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Posted
a. Do the Quakers?
b. I'm not sure their stance does attract too many people. It may possibly attract people who have got fed up with another denomination, I'm not sure how good it is with drawing people in from outside Christianity entirely.
(To take one example: is it liable to attract a proponent of women priests to discover a denomination that thinks a separated priesthood of whatever gender makeup is a bad thing?)
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. Their stance on equality, liberty and justice for all puts many churches to shame.
2.Their stance on Dead Horses no doubt attracts a lot of people.
1. It's a pity that all too often so little of it is mediated in their own back yards. They are very good (as are most church groups tbh) are doing stuff overseas but not so good at making a stand against things like benefit reform.
2. ... and repels others
[fixed code]
[ 24. December 2013, 19:50: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. Re the SA being well-respected, the SA's homophobia is definitely affecting this amongst young people. Many people I know boycott the SA and refuse to donate because of this.
2. And you know, all this.
1. I've never come across it. In this town the SA are respected by everyone - because they help anyone.
2.That wouldn't be the article by the gay blogger on the gay section of Huffington Post would it? Ah yes, thought so - hardly unbiased is it?
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Gamaliel
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# 812
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Posted
Yes, all that is true, yet they still command respect.
One of the leading lights among the (very few) Quakers around here had what she describes as a very powerful encounter with God during a serious car accident - from which she escaped apparently miraculously unscathed.
The experience convinced her that there was a God and after the accident she determined to find a faith community so that she could worship him there.
The question was, which one?
Her father and one or two others said, 'Well, I don't know much about them, but the Quakers seem to do a lot of good stuff ...'
They didn't say, 'Oh, the Baptists/CofE/Catholics etc etc ...'
Why not?
It might be purely based on speculation but there is a residual respect for the Quakers - perhaps because they fit the zeitgeist in some way through their non-creedal and non-dogmatic approach?
Although, that said, it seems counter-intuitive that there are struggling numerically. One might expect that they'd be bucking the trends but they aren't.
As an Orthodox friend of mine says about the reactions his parish gets when they process through the streets at Easter or other major festivals, 'People round here like to see other people doing religion, but they don't like to do it themselves ...'
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. Re the SA being well-respected, the SA's homophobia is definitely affecting this amongst young people. Many people I know boycott the SA and refuse to donate because of this.
2. And you know, all this.
1. I've never come across it. In this town the SA are respected by everyone - because they help anyone.
2.That wouldn't be the article by the gay blogger on the gay section of Huffington Post would it? Ah yes, thought so - hardly unbiased is it?
Yes but you're not a younger person who spends a lot of time on tumblr, instagram etc, are you? And actually I asked a SA collector for clarification on their policy and they said that they would ask LGBTQ people to leave the premises and would not provide help for them. And the SA's track record on LGBTQ rights is a matter of public record - it's not difficult to find out that they campaigned against the repeal of Section 28. All the points raised by the HuffPo article can be proven. Of course a gay rights section would be interested in how organisations treat gay people, but that doesn't make it untrustworthy.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
1. Their stance on equality, liberty and justice for all puts many churches to shame.
2.Their stance on Dead Horses no doubt attracts a lot of people.
1. It's a pity that all too often so little of it is mediated in their own back yards. They are very good (as are most church groups tbh) are doing stuff overseas but not so good at making a stand against things like benefit reform.
2. ... and repels others
[fixed code]
The Quakers local to me are active in local issues, and most ones I know nationally are more focused on national issues rather than international ones. There's some Quaker involvement in SCM which is mostly concerned with national issues. I don't think the Quakers are worse than any other church in this area, and at least the Quakers have good principles in the first place. Better than cold Reformed types.
The number of people who would reject the Quakers on Dead Horses is declining, surely? That's a problem a lot of churches are having, people leaving because of a conservative stance on Dead Horses.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. I've never come across it. In this town the SA are respected by everyone - because they help anyone.
2.That wouldn't be the article by the gay blogger on the gay section of Huffington Post would it? Ah yes, thought so - hardly unbiased is it?
ISTM that your comment is also just the wee-est littlest bit biased, innit?
If a writer is writing for a group of people, he may acknowledge their problems. Just because you don't accept that those problems exist doesn't mean that the problems don't actually exist.
Please go back to your safe little bubble.
[guys, preview post! the code decline on this thread is record-breaking!]
[ 24. December 2013, 20:53: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
Recently, there was a squabble in Quebec, given the proposed legislation about visible religious symbols. The Quebec Francophone community was once reliably RC, until the Quiet Revolution of 1960, when everyone suddenly realised that the Emperor had no clothes. Now Quebec is the least religious province in Canada
The law would prevent the wearing of religious symbols, and is particularly aimed at Muslim ones. When the question arose about the Legislature meeting a room dominated by a huge crucifix, this was brushed off, since the carving was "simply a cultural symbol" not a religious one!
Now I read this article about Europe becoming a more secular area as the result of immigration by such "other" groups as Muslims, and non-"ordinary" Christians.
The tacit assumption that the visibility of religion could be maintained so long as everyone agreed to leave it that way was observed. But the Cartoons fiasco in 2005 showed that was not possible if there were enough fanatics around.
Plus, of course, the rise of the noisily atheistic, up from 15% to 25% didn't help.
So get rid of the tacit agreement and bring in rules that spell it out. The blasphemy law in England, for instance, disappeared, since there might otherwise be a need to enforce it.
Oh, and Ireland has gone the same way as Quebec: crucifixes are allowed, because they are "cultural symbols", while Sikh turbans are not allowed for the Garda, because that was religion intruding. Sounds like religion trumping rights to me.
Does this contribute to the non-religious condition of Europe, or is it a symptom?
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Mudfrog
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# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Have had it confirmed by SA collectors that they refuse to help LGBTQ people and will ask them to leave the premises.
That is absolutely NOT the case.
[ 25. December 2013, 00:38: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And actually I asked a SA collector for clarification on their policy and they said that they would ask LGBTQ people to leave the premises and would not provide help for them.
That person was wrong.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Palimpsest
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# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by que sais-je
Maybe Quakers aren't really Christians at all, but they are seen by many as what Christianity should be about: comforting the afflicted and speaking truth to power.
Do the Quakers these days do much of either of those?
I suspect for most of those who say they admire the Quakers, what they like is the idea of the Quakers and a vague sense that they are totally unthreatening, so that you don't have to do anything about them. I suspect next to none of those who say they admire them have ever been to a Meeting.
As a non Christian I often see the actions of the American Friends Service Committee in a number of places where people are being afflicted these days. They are usually admired for what they do rather than preach.
[ 25. December 2013, 01:17: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
Plus, of course, the rise of the noisily atheistic, up from 15% to 25% didn't help.
What about us (relatively) quiet ones? And more interestingly what metric determines in which group I fall?
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
1. I've never come across it. In this town the SA are respected by everyone - because they help anyone.
2.That wouldn't be the article by the gay blogger on the gay section of Huffington Post would it? Ah yes, thought so - hardly unbiased is it?
1. ISTM that your comment is also just the wee-est littlest bit biased, innit?
2. Please go back to your safe little bubble.
1. Of course it is, otherwise I wouldn't be posting!
2. Actually it's not very safe where I am for all sorts of reasons. I think too you're playing the man now not the issue!
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
There is a variety of Quakers, and not just historical Foxite mystical or contemporary lefty-trendy.
Some are theologically orthodox - a friend of ours has been invited to pastor an evangelical Quaker congregation in the US.
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Kaplan Corday
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# 16119
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Posted
The Salvation Army’s opposition to homosexual practices is in line with the theological orthodoxy which all churches subscribed to until recently, and which most Christians still do.
In some cases this no doubt does put Western young people off Christianity, but Christianity is not (or at least shouldn’t be) in the business of maximizing consumption of a product the marketing of which justifies any sort of compromise.
Once again , the point has to be made that opposition to homosexual practice is not the same as homophobia.
Christians don’t agree with the beliefs and practices of Hindus, and deny that a person can be at the same time a Hindu and a Christian, but are happy for them to enjoy the same religious freedom as themselves, to treat them with friendliness and dignity, and to recognize that some Hindus are nicer and better people than some Christians.
To label such an attitude as Hinduphobia would be sheer lunacy, despite the fact that there are no doubt a handful of Christians who hate and fear Hindus ( just as there are a number of Hindus who fear and hate Christians).
I realize that this is DH stuff, but so is the use of homophobia/homophobic, so as long as its usage persists, its refutation is justified.
Constant iteration of the terms homophobia/homophobic is an example of Big Lie strategy, a piece of Orwellian manipulation aimed ultimately at cowing and silencing opponents.
It is no use protesting that the terms are now an ineradicable part of the discourse and we are stuck with them forever, because other objectionable smear terms which were also part of everyday language for decades or even centuries are now unacceptable.
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Arethosemyfeet
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# 17047
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Posted
While the SA (and the RCC, and many Protestants, and some Anglicans) continue to campaign against legal rights for gay people, I'll continue to call them out for being homophobic. Stop doing that and we can talk about the limits of homophobia. When there are still evangelicals going to Jamaica and Uganda to support violently anti-gay laws, I'm going to continue to worry more about the persecution of gay people than the poor hurt feelings of bigots.
When the anti-gay brigade start trying to ban Hindus from getting married, from telling others about Hinduism, from protecting young Hindus from bullying, then there might be a valid comparison (and, yes, I would consider that Hinduphobia).
[ 25. December 2013, 21:58: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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gorpo
Shipmate
# 17025
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Posted
If churches conservative stance on the dead horses were the reason for their decline, then people would be leaving the conservative churches to become members of the more progressive/liberal ones, instead of becoming atheists and agnostics. In multi-denominational countries like the USA, that would mean "progressive" churches like ELCA and the Episcopal Church would be gaining members crazily, and not shutting their doors everywhere like it´s happening nowadays.
Posts: 247 | From: Brazil | Registered: Apr 2012
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
As for the Seven Churches of Revelation ... they are what they are and the fact that they no longer exist is indeed an object lesson.
I'd suggest that this is one of the ways they can be understood and applied. As object lessons.
They've got nothing whatsoever to do with neatly demarcated 'ages' and epochs in church history or predictions in the uber-specific sense.
To read them that way is to engage in eisegesis not exegesis.
I could recommend a fine book on the subject, but 'm not allowed to .. besides I'm far too modest
[ 26. December 2013, 04:56: Message edited by: Zappa ]
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shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it
and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by gorpo:
If churches conservative stance on the dead horses were the reason for their decline, then people would be leaving the conservative churches to become members of the more progressive/liberal ones, instead of becoming atheists and agnostics. In multi-denominational countries like the USA, that would mean "progressive" churches like ELCA and the Episcopal Church would be gaining members crazily, and not shutting their doors everywhere like it´s happening nowadays.
It doesn't necessarily follow. The conservative churches tend to feed people a line of "everyone except us is a hellbound Christ denier" so when people reject them, they still have that dichotomy in their mind and not all will manage to let go of the bullshit and keep their faith. The tend to chuck the baby out with the bathwater. Then there's the fact the many people don't even realise that there are different Christian opinions on these issues - they assume that all Christians share the conservative view because that's who shouts the loudest.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, I think Arethosemyfeet is right.
There's something so full-on and all-or-nothing about the more fundamentalist end of things that when people leave it they tend not to settle in other forms of Christianity but abandon faith - or at least organised church/organised religion altogether.
My brother-in-law grew up in a strongly Pentecostal family. At the moment, none of his many siblings are involved in any form of church life whatsoever. I wouldn't say they'd lost their faith, it's just that they've been in churches that are so full-on that any form of church that isn't all revivalistic and expecting five miracle before breakfast seems pointless to them.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
They've also been sold the line that people in the Anglican, Methodist and other 'mainline' churches are irredeemably liberal or not 'born again' and so on ...
So even though they've fallen out with their own rather authoritarian and full-on church settings, they can't possible envisage getting involved anywhere else.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Incidentally, I've actually seen this in practice. A gay man I was at university with had been involved in a fairly con-evo church in the past but couldn't reconcile it with his sexuality. In accepting his sexuality he felt that he had to reject his faith because he'd been told that the two were incompatible, and he was dismissive of any theology that was able to reconcile the two.
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
It often amazes me, if I am discussing something with a hard-core atheist, how often they were religiously fundamentalist in the past, and have now become a sort of atheist fundie. I suppose they retain some sort of black and white mind-set, it's the focal point which has changed.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Coming back to Mudfrog's complaint about ungodly comedians and so on ...
Well, I think he has got something of a point but I also think he's missing the full picture.
Sally Phillips, who plays Miranda Hart's friend in the hit TV series, is a Christian and speaks to Joan Bakewell about her faith on the BBC Radio 3 programme, Belief.
Milton Jones gets plenty of namechecks in there too.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03lzny8
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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