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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The Immorality of Profanity
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
With Christmas upon us and much time being spent with family, profanity is on my mind more often than usual.
In my experience growing up in the US, kids were taught that saying "bad words" - like s***, f***, d***, a**, and even "hell" when used in a non-theological sense - is a sin or something morally abhorrent that brings a dark mark on one's being and causes harm to all those who hear the profanity.
I actually did not know what the bad words were for a long time - I just knew that I was not supposed to say them. I thought that "shut up" must be bad words because I kept being told not to say them, but I did not know that s*** and f*** were bad words because I kept hearing my mother use them when she was driving. I only found out that they were bad words at about age 7 when I started copying my mother and used those words in school.
In my experience of other cultures it seems that profanity is taboo in them not because of some inherent sinfulness of the words themselves but because they are a sign of low class and a lack of education and refinement. I'm not sure how many other cultures really believe that angels weep and more nails are driven ever-so-painfully into Christ's extremities whenever someone says s***.
Granted, some words, like racial epithets and words that denigrate women, gays, and various other groups of people - are so hard to separate from the harm that they have been used to inflict that there really are very few moral uses, if any, for them in day-to-day conversation, especially among relative strangers.
Other words, like a**hole, are used specifically to express intense antipathy for someone else (unless they are being used in a sarcastic or endaring way, which can be hard to read unless you know someone well). For this reason, they should be avoided in polite conversation. But I can see no reason why the words should be seen as evil in themselves.
As for religious swearing, belief that saying "hell" as an expletive in a moment of anger is an evil thing to do is associated with the power of words to invoke forces of evil (and with fear of casting a curse upon someone by wishing that they be damned - but many times that "hell" is used as an expletive it is not directed at any particular person). The biblical prohibition on "taking God's name in vain" is similar to this, but saying "Oh my God" or "Jesus Christ!" in a moment of shock or frustration was not taught to me at least as being any where near as sinful as saying s*** or f***.
Maybe one could argue that f*** is an inherently bad word because it reduces human lovemaking to an exploitive act for the purpose of "getting off." I guess you could also argue that the emphasis on "thrusting" in the word f*** makes the word essentially about someone sexually dominating someone else and therefore is sexist (although women now say that they f***ed a man when they (the women) were the receptive partner in intercourse). But I find these arguments doubtful and see no reason to argue that f*** is any more sinful than the phrase "have sex with."
And I find to reason at all that any argument can be used to argue that the word s*** is sinful. Feces can spread disease if not handled properly and has a smell that most people almost instinctively find disgusting. (I find that I am writing this ironic given how passionately I have defended anal sex on another forum as something that is not inherently peverse or harmful - but I really do not think these discussions are related at all). So why can't a person yell "s***" when they are upset? Why is it any worse than yelling "shoot" or "darn" or "fudge" (in the case of "shoot," aren't you implying killing someone? Isn't that worse than bringing human excrement to mind?)
I think that the idea that I have noticed in non-Anglophone cultures that profanity is just crass language associated with the lower classes is the correct one. Some words are inherently offensive (as I said above), but all other profanity only has as much power to offend as we allow them. I don't see any reason to punish children for saying s*** or f*** as an isolated expletive in the same way that you would punish them for using the words to verbally attack someone. If a kid says s*** when s/he stubs his/her toe, you explain to the kid (in words the kid can understand) that that word (for no good reason) has societal connotations that can make people angry and therefore should be avoided except in intimate situations with people you know well and trust. You can then reward the kid for avoiding using such language in the future when s/he is frustrated. This seems to be a much better way to raise kids than to bring them up thinking that there is some kind of magical evil to these words. Once kids brought up thinking that swear words are "evil" realize that almost everyone (including their parents) uses them, and some people make a lot of money entertaining people by using them, they will be more likely to doubt other things they were taught about what is right and wrong.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
A**, that means donkey this side of the Atlantic. Here we say A***. quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
So why can't a person yell "s***" when they are upset? Why is it any worse than yelling "shoot" or "darn" or "fudge" (in the case of "shoot," aren't you implying killing someone? Isn't that worse than bringing human excrement to mind?)
Because words have power, and taboo words have more power. Words which cause the greatest offence are the ones which bring the greatest release. Which is why, when you are really frustrated, words like fuck or shit are a better form of expression than, say, fiddlesticks.
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
The subject of taboo language is interesting. In general, words that are considered objectionable are considered to be either profane or obscene.
A word (or the use of a word) is profane if it refers inappropriately to something that is considered holy. Thus people may object to referring flippantly to the beard of Jesus or (classically) to "God's blood". This is obviously based on religion.
A word (or its use) is obscene if it refers to something not normally seen or mentioned in public, that is, something usually off-stage. This varies from culture to culture and time to time, but it often includes bodily functions and practices such as sex, drunkeness, defecation and urination. As feces are considered worthless and offensive, people use synonyms for "feces" to refer to whatever they don't like as worthless and offensive. One consequence is that people keep inventing more and more synonyms.
We also find that as languages change, newer terms are given preference simply because they are newer. The older words are not necessarily regarded as evil but simply as old-fashioned.
There are times when even highly respectable people may use "strong language" for emphasis. In one of Jimmy Stewart's movies, "Shenandoah", his character uses the word "teat", and he uses for emphasis and with its correct meaning.
If you are fussy enough about words considered objectionable by contemporary culture, you may find yourself cut off from great literature of the past that uses words quite ordinary at the time of writing.
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
I invite you to read the book Holy Shit by Melissa Mohr. In it she traces profanity in the English language, with a whirlwind tour of ancient Rome. Where profanity used to center around religious oaths or persons (God's thumbs! Jesus Christ!), that has faded (not entirely obviously) to be replaced with bodily functions (shit, fuck, wanker) or parts (cunt, dickhead). This coincided with the rise of the idea of privacy. When it became possible to have your own room to fuck or shit in, the actions became something to hide, and then the words became taboo. Thus, no more Gropecunt Lane.
Fascinating book.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Before we move away from asterisks, why is making people think the word fuck by printing f*** or f*ck worse than actually printing fuck?
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Horseman Bree
Shipmate
# 5290
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Posted
When the RC church had a stranglehold on the lives of most Quebec French-speakers, various religious words became the "bad" words of choice:
"ostie" (Host) or "Kaw-liss" (Chalice) spring to my mind, but the range was much larger.
Now that Quebec has the lowest church-participation rate in Canada, these words have disappeared from everyday speech, although still recognisable.
Sort of equivalent to "OMG" as said by non-religious people in English-speaking TV-land, a phrase that would have earned mouthwashing with soap in 1950.
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Before we move away from asterisks, why is making people think the word fuck by printing f*** or f*ck worse than actually printing fuck?
Because some people have a visceral reaction to the word itself that they do not have to f***. Because words are not just denotations but also have connotations and emotional freight, and the emotional freight can vary greatly from person to person.
ETA: I tend to be more blunt on the Ship than in other venues because it's part of the culture here. Context is key.
[ 23. December 2013, 19:57: Message edited by: mousethief ]
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
Shouldn't there be a difference between words said with the intent to verbally attack someone and words said just because you are feeling a rush of pain or the shock of surprise?
I just don't think there is anything inherently morally wrong to saying those words about bodily waste, genitals, and sex that society finds crude. It only becomes wrong when you use them to disparage people.
Avoiding saying s*** in polite conversation is the same as avoiding using contractions like "isn't" in a research paper you write for university (that is, unless the research paper is about the linguistic or literary use of contractions). It is an issue of formality, not morality. I really think we do our children a disservice by making them feel guilty and ashamed for using words that have to do with bodily parts and their functions.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
H. Bree, I've heard that "tabernacle" is still a potent nasty in Quebec - is that true in your experience?
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Avoiding saying s*** in polite conversation is the same as avoiding using contractions like "isn't" in a research paper you write for university (that is, unless the research paper is about the linguistic or literary use of contractions). It is an issue of formality, not morality.
Except it isn't. Society decides what's rude and unacceptable, and at the present time those are rude and unacceptable words in certain contexts. I like the thing Lynne Truss says in "Talk to the Hand" -- she figures "fuck" will be robbed of all its power when a children's TV show host says, "Now we're going to make a fucking car park from bog roll tubes." But till that day....
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
H. Bree, I've heard that "tabernacle" is still a potent nasty in Quebec - is that true in your experience?
Yes, it is true. Les Sacrées have lost none of their power, potency or use. Quebeckers may not attend church much but they still swear by it.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I've explained to my son (just as pedantic as his mother!) that there are three classes of "bad words," and he's going to get a different reaction (from me, anyway) depending on the class. There's ordinary vulgarity (shit, crap, ass, fuck, etc.) which are basically offensive because they are marked as "low class" (compare "feces," "bottom/fundament/kiester/gluteus maximus", "sleep with"). I don't mind these as long as they are used sparingly (to avoid tedium) and out of earshot of anyone who is going to be troubled or grieved by it, which would be a sin against charity. Then there's obscenity (motherfucker etc.) which is off limits because nobody should have to have those mental images foisted on them unconsenting. Worst of all is blasphemy, and that's the only one I will go ballistic over, because that's misusing the name of God who loves us and that is Just.Not.On. So in my family you can get away with a zillion fucks compared to one Oh my God.*
I'm afraid this viewpoint shocked a few people at his parochial school. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) But we ain't there no more.
* He's also not allowed to give nonChristians a hard time about any of this stuff. We try not to do judgemental asshole in my family.
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
A reverse trend seems to be 'bitch'. We freely used this word 40 years ago, to the point I recall in about grade 4 or 5 being told by a teacher that our class was 'bitchy today'. No big deal. Today it seems rather offensive. In those days girls were possibly bitches and boys were possibly bastards. And saying 'bloody hell' was rather bad. We seldom said shit or fuck, possibly when in the bush or talking about the doing the actual activity the words represent.
What's the history of the euphemism "f bomb"?, which is rather new to me.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Og, King of Bashan
Ship's giant Amorite
# 9562
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Shouldn't there be a difference between words said with the intent to verbally attack someone and words said just because you are feeling a rush of pain or the shock of surprise?
I think the word "intent" is probably too strong for what happens when most people let out a stream of profanity at another person. I bet it mostly comes from the same place that it does when you feel a rush of pain- temporarily blinding frustration. It is a fairly rare instance where someone actually curses at someone else with malice aforethought.
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"I like to eat crawfish and drink beer. That's despair?" ― Walker Percy
Posts: 3259 | From: Denver, Colorado, USA | Registered: May 2005
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Augustine the Aleut
Shipmate
# 1472
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Posted
Tabernacle is still a pretty strong word in the Outouais, to the point that many people use softer versions-- tabernouche or taberouette. Calice can be made less stronger and jokier with caline ma bine. I suppose it's a bit like fiddlesticks instead of f**k (I use the asterisks in citation, the way I was taught).
Posts: 6236 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: Oct 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lamb Chopped:
I've explained to my son (just as pedantic as his mother!) that there are three classes of "bad words," and he's going to get a different reaction (from me, anyway) depending on the class. There's ordinary vulgarity (shit, crap, ass, fuck, etc.) which are basically offensive because they are marked as "low class" (compare "feces," "bottom/fundament/kiester/gluteus maximus", "sleep with"). I don't mind these as long as they are used sparingly (to avoid tedium) and out of earshot of anyone who is going to be troubled or grieved by it, which would be a sin against charity. Then there's obscenity (motherfucker etc.) which is off limits because nobody should have to have those mental images foisted on them unconsenting. Worst of all is blasphemy, and that's the only one I will go ballistic over, because that's misusing the name of God who loves us and that is Just.Not.On. So in my family you can get away with a zillion fucks compared to one Oh my God.*
I'm afraid this viewpoint shocked a few people at his parochial school. But we ain't there no more.
* He's also not allowed to give nonChristians a hard time about any of this stuff. We try not to do judgemental asshole in my family.
I don't agree completely with your categorization, but I think explaining profanity to kids that way makes a lot more sense than just saying the s word and f word and bad and will be severely punished with no explanation. I really do think that the shame surrounding swear words for sex, body parts, and body functions is tied to shame of one's own body.
Religious profanity is in a separate category because of religious codes of morality, as are epithets that denigrate certain groups of people, because they are obviously wrong.
But for "bad words" about the body and what it does, does anyone know if the idea in the English speaking world that such words are inherently evil and one's own salvation is jeopardized by using them (for those who believe that salvation can be jeopardized by one's actions) - does this idea about "body" profanity exist outside of the English language? Or do other languages just see "body" profanity as crass and a sign of bad manners, but not as inherently evil?
Or is it a Christian or Western thing for body profanity to be evil? Does it exist in other religions? In non-Western cultures?
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Fr Weber
Shipmate
# 13472
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
When the RC church had a stranglehold on the lives of most Quebec French-speakers, various religious words became the "bad" words of choice:
"ostie" (Host) or "Kaw-liss" (Chalice) spring to my mind, but the range was much larger.
Now that Quebec has the lowest church-participation rate in Canada, these words have disappeared from everyday speech, although still recognisable.
Sort of equivalent to "OMG" as said by non-religious people in English-speaking TV-land, a phrase that would have earned mouthwashing with soap in 1950.
Hostie de calice de merde!
And if you want to call somebody a son of a bitch in Quebec, you refer to him as "mon sacrement".
Anyway, blasphemy (which includes taking God's name/s in vain) is a sin. Speaking profanely is not, unless you are scandalizing your hearers on purpose or through carelessness. Simple as that.
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"The Eucharist is not a play, and you're not Jesus."
--Sr Theresa Koernke, IHM
Posts: 2512 | From: Oakland, CA | Registered: Feb 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I think that idea (body profanity = evil) is a confusion of the mind, and comes from inadequate catechesis. It's not a Christian thing, it's a cultural thing. In Vietnam the worst insults have to do with education (or lack thereof). There is a term "muc yai" (I'm spelling it semi-phonetically) that is as strong or stronger than "mother fucker" in English--it can get you into a brawl in no time flat--but it translates literally as "no education." We would say "badly brought up."
There are plenty of Christianized cultures that did/do not equate body profanity with sin. Just read Luther and bear in mind that he was not unusual for his time.
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Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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The5thMary
Shipmate
# 12953
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Posted
It's weird. I have a mouth like a sailor, at times and my "favorite" "bad" word is fuck. I say it quite a lot. However, I can clean up my mouth when I'm in company that wouldn't necessarily appreciate me dropping a few f bombs and other things. Is it most people's understanding that saying "Jesus Christ!" or "Goddammit!" as epithets is a huge sin? Because I say those, too and I always feel really badly about it. I have found myself apologizing to God when I say those and I would never say them in "polite" society... anyway, I have no problem with saying fuck or shite or bastard but I do have a real problem with "bitch" because it seems that some men use that term to refer to any woman who stand up for herself or offers a strong opinion... I've said the popular "be-atch" but one of my sisters pointed out that I'm still saying bitch... ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.
Posts: 3451 | From: Tacoma, WA USA | Registered: Aug 2007
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fr Weber:
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
When the RC church had a stranglehold on the lives of most Quebec French-speakers, various religious words became the "bad" words of choice:
"ostie" (Host) or "Kaw-liss" (Chalice) spring to my mind, but the range was much larger.
Now that Quebec has the lowest church-participation rate in Canada, these words have disappeared from everyday speech, although still recognisable.
Sort of equivalent to "OMG" as said by non-religious people in English-speaking TV-land, a phrase that would have earned mouthwashing with soap in 1950.
Hostie de calice de merde!
And if you want to call somebody a son of a bitch in Quebec, you refer to him as "mon sacrement".
Anyway, blasphemy (which includes taking God's name/s in vain) is a sin. Speaking profanely is not, unless you are scandalizing your hearers on purpose or through carelessness. Simple as that.
Is there a difference between blasphemy and sacrilege?
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Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Because words have power, and taboo words have more power. Words which cause the greatest offence are the ones which bring the greatest release. Which is why, when you are really frustrated, words like fuck or shit are a better form of expression than, say, fiddlesticks.
This is it.
Swearing is very useful.
And as such, in my view, it should only be used sparingly and when really needed. In extreme circumstances when that release of emotion in swearing is all that can be done. Constant use of any word means it loses all its power.
So I rarely swear - and never in print. I see no need whatever to type profanities.
But when I do swear boy, do folks sit up and take notice. They know that I'm really upset as it happens so rarely.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I think the issue of consideration for others also comes into play, since the use of bad language in front of, or even directed to, others can be a sort of power play.
I used to work with a guy who was the most senior IT consultant at my company, and was well known for his swearing, in front of everybody. I did wonder why he would do this, and concluded it was probably a sort of power play. Daring people to rebuke him, and risking being thought of as prissy.
So I would say that the issue depends on the relationship. Between people for whom "fuck" means about as much as "Err", I can't see any harm done. But it can be used to demean people, especially by people in authority, who like to take the attitude that I can say what I fucking well want, and what are you going to do about it?
[ 24. December 2013, 11:47: Message edited by: anteater ]
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Posts: 2538 | From: UK | Registered: May 2006
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
Stephen Fry's TV series on language demonstrated the power of taboo words by showing that you can tolerate more pain if you're 'allowed' to swear in reaction to it.
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Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
Is it most people's understanding that saying "Jesus Christ!" or "Goddammit!" as epithets is a huge sin?
ISTM, it is ludicrous to think an all-powerful, all loving being gets his knickers in a twist over this.
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Stephen Fry's TV series on language demonstrated the power of taboo words by showing that you can tolerate more pain if you're 'allowed' to swear in reaction to it.
Mythbusters did this as well. Though their experiment leaves a bit to be desired. Hard to separate out the power of suggestion.
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Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Olaf
Shipmate
# 11804
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
Because words have power, and taboo words have more power. Words which cause the greatest offence are the ones which bring the greatest release. Which is why, when you are really frustrated, words like fuck or shit are a better form of expression than, say, fiddlesticks.
This is it.
Swearing is very useful.
And as such, in my view, it should only be used sparingly and when really needed. In extreme circumstances when that release of emotion in swearing is all that can be done. Constant use of any word means it loses all its power.
So I rarely swear - and never in print. I see no need whatever to type profanities.
But when I do swear boy, do folks sit up and take notice. They know that I'm really upset as it happens so rarely.
Yes, me too. I was raised with the concept of "bad words," or more formally, "profanity." These were words that a Good Little Christian ought not say. I can't say that I disagree, and I probably would pass this down to another generation.
Posts: 8953 | From: Ad Midwestem | Registered: Sep 2006
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
Is it most people's understanding that saying "Jesus Christ!" or "Goddammit!" as epithets is a huge sin?
ISTM, it is ludicrous to think an all-powerful, all loving being gets his knickers in a twist over this.
I would add the caveat that if you are using these words to verbally attack somebody, then it is a sin, although the sin is the verbal attack; it would be the same sin if you used "polite" words. Which is one thing that really gets my goat about people who are (or pretend to be) prissy about naughty words. They can often be the same people that are ripping others to shreds, but using drawing-room vocabulary. The hypocrisy can be choking.
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Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
So if you stub your toe in the woods and say s### or f### and no one is there to hear it, is it a sin?
Now substitute all the other "bad words" in - are there any words that someone could say in this situation that would be sinful to say, even if no one is there to hear it?
If you don't believe in sin, substitute "immoral" for "sinful."
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
Is it most people's understanding that saying "Jesus Christ!" or "Goddammit!" as epithets is a huge sin?
ISTM, it is ludicrous to think an all-powerful, all loving being gets his knickers in a twist over this.
I would add the caveat that if you are using these words to verbally attack somebody, then it is a sin, although the sin is the verbal attack; it would be the same sin if you used "polite" words. Which is one thing that really gets my goat about people who are (or pretend to be) prissy about naughty words. They can often be the same people that are ripping others to shreds, but using drawing-room vocabulary. The hypocrisy can be choking.
I do think it's sad to hear people use these words like this when they never use them to praise God or to contemplate his greatness. Only the other night I heard a comedian use 'Jesus Christ' on TV, and then say at another point that he didn't believe in Jesus.
On the whole, I don't think there's any point in getting worked up about swearing in the general culture, but I dislike it among practising Christians. Unless they're seriously upset about something important it just sounds like posturing, as though they're just trying to reassure their listeners that Christians are 'normal' like everyone else.
Maybe it's a class thing as well. Well-educated middle class Christians can probably get away with swearing because their respectability is assured, but a working class Christian or someone from an ethnic minority probably wouldn't benefit from speaking that way.
[ 29. December 2013, 22:01: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Justinian
Shipmate
# 5357
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Posted
"If we started swearing all the time what would we have left for special occasions?" - Flanders and Swann
Seriously, to me, it's as simple as that. I don't think that fuck is inherently obscene. But I treat it as such because it provides a catharsis simply from the taboo.
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My real name consists of just four letters, but in billions of combinations.
Eudaimonaic Laughter - my blog.
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Galloping Granny
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# 13814
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Posted
Words go up and words go down...
I remember a very small boy, many years ago, on the beach making a sandcastle, patting it rhythmically with his spade and singing 'Bugger bugger bugger..." because he liked the sound of it. Now I would never have used the word then. But since a brilliant TV ad a few years back had even the dog muttering "bugger!" when he landed in the mud, it's become a very useful stress-relieving word in our household and probably in many others.
On the other hand, a friend reading a story to her grandchildren in which there was a character called Dick, had a very embarrassed reaction from her grandson: "We're not allowed to say that word at our school."
/Tangent
Can't think of any now, but I know I encountered words in the classroom that elicited sniggers because they'd developed slang connotations. Not an offensive word, but my Dad taking a science class in Elvis's day couldn't understand why the class shrieked with laughter when he said "pelvis".
/End tangent
GG
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The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
Personally, I draw a distinction between profanity and cursing. To curse someone, to wish them ill in speech, may happen in anger or as a result of settled malevolence. I rate settled malevolence as a particularly nasty form of immorality and a lot more serious than swearing. You don't have to use swear words to express it either.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Yes. I'd put an ocean between vulgarity (those beloved Anglo-Saxon words), which I do use - mostly sparingly - and blasphemy, which I don't, ever.
I remember the first time I swore in front of the Girl, having just managed to drop, in a moment of exhausted fumbling, her lovingly reheated spoo into the cat's bowl.
Fortunately, she misheard me and spent the rest of the day shouting "big dog's bottoms!" ![[Hot and Hormonal]](icon_redface.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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bib
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# 13074
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Posted
I think we all (me included) use some profane language just because we are all human, but there are many people who swear to excess mostly due to habit and laziness. I always find it fascinating to hear a group of men in full flight swearing profusely who are able to cease instantly once Granny comes into the room.
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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
I think, aside from the remnants of Puritanism in our culture, one reason that profanity is still seen as inherently "evil" in the US is that it remains illegal on broadcast television and radio and is forbidden (though perhaps not by law?) on basic cable.
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lilBuddha
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# 14333
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Posted
Blasphemy, sacrilege, and taking the Lord's name in vain.
These phrases are being tossed around, but what do you mean by them?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
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Penny S
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# 14768
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Posted
I used to ask, when children were OMG-ing, in full, whether they really wanted God to stop whatever he was doing and notice what had just happened (thinking as I did so that my theology was so bad...)
And use "fishcakes!" when expletives were necessary. It has such satisfying consonantal sounds. Better, I think, than fiddlesticks - which is suspect, anyway. (As in "Cockadoodle do, my dame has lost her shoe, my master's lost his fiddling stick and doesn't know what to do.")
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Sioni Sais
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# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by orfeo:
Stephen Fry's TV series on language demonstrated the power of taboo words by showing that you can tolerate more pain if you're 'allowed' to swear in reaction to it.
Anyone who has hit their thumb with a hammer knows that "Jesus Christ!" acts faster than Anadin. You might still need a trip to A&E and an X-ray, but you'll feel better for it, and while He doesn't love it I'm pretty sure Our Saviour has bigger fish to fry.
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Anyone who has hit their thumb with a hammer knows that "Jesus Christ!" acts faster than Anadin.
But why? Is it just the sound of the words?
Maybe we need to invent a new phrase that doesn't force atheists and respectable Anglicans and Catholics alike to address a deity when he's rather far from their thoughts.
How about 'Cheesus Fist!' or 'Jingus Twist!' Something with along those lines....
[ 30. December 2013, 18:16: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The5thMary:
It's weird. I have a mouth like a sailor, at times and my "favorite" "bad" word is fuck.
Why do sailors get the Swearimg Gold Star? I have a sailboat and I mostly say scurvey rats, avast, land lubbers and boom coming over. Any who use language the captain don't approve, they are flogged at grating. And somw them are into that as well.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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barrea
Shipmate
# 3211
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Posted
The bible tells us not to use bad words, not to let filthy language come out of our mouth, Ephesians 5:4, Surely that should be enough to stop Christians from swearing.
If we are new creatures in Christ Then we should be different to the World, We don't have to swear it is a choice.
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Therefore having been justified by faith,we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans 5:1
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stonespring
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# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by barrea:
The bible tells us not to use bad words, not to let filthy language come out of our mouth, Ephesians 5:4, Surely that should be enough to stop Christians from swearing.
If we are new creatures in Christ Then we should be different to the World, We don't have to swear it is a choice.
Why is s### a more filthy word than feces? Why is f*** a more filthy word than "to have sex?"
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Silly talk and jesting should not come out of our mouths either if you take Ephesians 5:4 at face value. Should we all become humourless just because someone wants to translate αἰσχρότης as meaning rude words (it is better translated as filthiness). What that meant to the original audience is not necessarily what you are saying. Don't forget σκύβαλα in Philippians 3:8 is coarse Greek.
Cross posted with stonespring.
[ 30. December 2013, 20:00: Message edited by: balaam ]
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
Anyone who has hit their thumb with a hammer knows that "Jesus Christ!" acts faster than Anadin.
But why? Is it just the sound of the words?
Maybe we need to invent a new phrase that doesn't force atheists and respectable Anglicans and Catholics alike to address a deity when he's rather far from their thoughts.
How about 'Cheesus Fist!' or 'Jingus Twist!' Something with along those lines....
Is it true that Jews in the US often say "Jesus" or "Geez" as an exclamation? I think people just pick it up from their families, but it might have become popular because it is a. not as socially frowned upon as using stronger language like s*** or f*** and b. for Jews, it is not, strictly speaking, using the name of God in vain. I may be totally wrong in guessing this but it seems to make sense. There is no intent to insult Christians or the Christian understanding of God. As a Christian, I am not offended by it, but you have to try really hard to offend me. (Racist epithets work every time, though.)
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
Why is s### a more filthy word than feces? Why is f*** a more filthy word than "to have sex?"
At one time, they weren't bad words at all, they were just ordinary everyday words. That changed at the time of the Norman Conquest. "Shit" and "excrement" are exactly the same thing. It's just that "excrement" was French and considered acceptable, whereas "shit" was Saxon and as such came to be regarded as vulgar.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by stonespring:
]Is it true that Jews in the US often say "Jesus" or "Geez" as an exclamation? I think people just pick it up from their families, but it might have become popular because it is a. not as socially frowned upon as using stronger language like s*** or f*** and b. for Jews, it is not, strictly speaking, using the name of God in vain. I may be totally wrong in guessing this but it seems to make sense. There is no intent to insult Christians or the Christian understanding of God. As a Christian, I am not offended by it, but you have to try really hard to offend me. (Racist epithets work every time, though.)
There's not much point in getting offended by gratuitous references to God. They're too deeply imbedded in the culture. But the fact that no offence is meant is no compensation - all that means is that the individual concerned doesn't care about his or her listeners. (Perhaps they don't care too much about God either, but he seems rather incidental to the discussion....)
To me, the most distasteful example of this kind of thing is 'OM*G!' Fortunately, I don't come across it too often, and it mostly exists online, not in real life. But everyone's free to speak or write as they wish.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
Can it not be that saying something like "my fucking God" and "Jesus Shit Christ" are reasonable ways of praying? Or do you spare "Mr Damn" (that'd be God's last name) your more anguished moments and hesitate to pray then. My last concentrated time of prayer like that, I asked "fucking God" to kill me, a prayer unanswered. Thankfully rarely those prayers have been necessitated.
Thus I suspect some profanity involving religious terms have started out aa prayers, or in the mouths of sailors other than me.
I would have thought Jesus might have sworn as he was crucified. He better have if he is human. Peter should have let out a blue streak after the cock crowed. Judas, I suppose he is supposed to be bad so okay for him?
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
Can it not be that saying something like "my fucking God" and "Jesus Shit Christ" are reasonable ways of praying? Or do you spare "Mr Damn" (that'd be God's last name) your more anguished moments and hesitate to pray then. My last concentrated time of prayer like that, I asked "fucking God" to kill me, a prayer unanswered. Thankfully rarely those prayers have been necessitated.
Thus I suspect some profanity involving religious terms have started out aa prayers, or in the mouths of sailors other than me.
I would have thought Jesus might have sworn as he was crucified. He better have if he is human. Peter should have let out a blue streak after the cock crowed. Judas, I suppose he is supposed to be bad so okay for him?
I have always thought that when I say, "Oh my God," out of shock, I am in a way invoking God's protection. When I say it in pain, I am asking Him for relief. I guess I am guilty of saying it sarcastically, though. I don't think God minds that much. "God" isn't His real name, anyway. Isn't it worse to use the Holy Name of Jesus (or the ineffable Tetragrammaton with vowels) in vain than to use a word, "God," that is just calling God what He is instead of using His name?
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
no prophet
We might swear at God in our anger and distress, I suppose. But in most cases, people are just swearing, and God's name gets slipped in there for no particular reason whatsoever. That's how it seems to me.
Some religious publisher ought to commission a book about the role of swearing in prayer - or about swearing as prayer. A bunch of archbishops etc. could contribute their lofty thoughts on the matter and help the rest of us out!
stonespring
So if 'God' isn't his name, which name do you use when you pray?
[ 30. December 2013, 23:33: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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