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Source: (consider it) Thread: Father Christmas doesn't exist ?
rolyn
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Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas . Not easy when you've played alone with the idea that he does exist for their entire life.

Apparently it's the done thing to explode the myth before they get to secondary school least they get teased over it .

There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly . Maybe we should think twice about putting a glass of sherry , and carrot for the reindeer, out on Christmas night if future heartbreak is to be avoided.

[ 24. December 2013, 11:40: Message edited by: rolyn ]

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.

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LeRoc

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Of course he doesn't exist. Sinterklaas does.

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the giant cheeseburger
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quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.

My guess is that most kids get it around the 6-8 age range, and that parents who have a good peer support network of other parents also know that is the case.

The majority of those kids are smart enough to figure out it is in their best interests (from a materialistic POV) to keep that from their parents and continue playing along with the game.

Eldest siblings get a free pass from having to try and keep the parents from knowing. Parental bribery meant I was still getting stuff from Father Christmas until I was 13, unfortunately it stopped when the youngest of my two sisters was told at age four by the elder of the two!

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas . Not easy when you've played alone with the idea that he does exist for their entire life.

They let him get to eleven before realising that, and then decided to put it off another year anyway?

The time to have that talk is next week, before school goes back and he runs the risk of a conversation along the lines of…
quote:
"Father Christmas got me a nerf gun, that's so cool."
"You still believe in Father Christmas [Killing me]

…and before it slips from the front shelf of the brain and Christmas 2014 starts approaching, bringing plentiful opportunities for peers to do the job..
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Apparently it's the done thing to explode the myth before they get to secondary school least they get teased over it .

There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly .

I hate to break this to you, but any kid who is gullible enough to genuinely believe in Father Christmas at age 11 is going to cop it badly in the middle-secondary school years regardless of when that balloon is popped.

Hopefully for his sake he did actually figure it out a while back along with all his peers and was playing along with the joke well enough to con the parents into thinking it was real. If it is real, the parents need to get some real life help with stimulating the development of critical thinking processes and building emotional resilience, otherwise he's in for a rough time over the coming years.

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The Phantom Flan Flinger
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I'm wondering if it's the child or the parents who need the baloon popping....

Given my mum's reaction when I stocped believing in Father Christmas (the telling off of my life), I'm of the opinion she'd have been happy for me to go on believing for many more years (I was about 7 or 8 at the time)...

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Boogie

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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:

Hopefully for his sake he did actually figure it out a while back along with all his peers and was playing along with the joke well enough to con the parents into thinking it was real. If it is real, the parents need to get some real life help with stimulating the development of critical thinking processes and building emotional resilience, otherwise he's in for a rough time over the coming years.

This.

Especially the 'critical thinking' bit. He'll be incredibly susceptible to adverts and peer pressure otherwise.

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Callan
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Oh, dear God, Father Christmas.

I grew up thinking that Father Christmas is an elaborate game played between children and parents and that the point is to find out that your parents are tricking you. And that any normal child is going to be hip to the whole "it's your dad thing" before they get through key stage two.

Years later, I am a Curate taking a confirmation class in a C of E school. There is a room full of bright year sixers (i.e. 10 - 11). One of them asks if Father Christmas exists. This is obviously a QTWTAIN, so I say "Actually no, but don't tell mum and dad because they will be terribly disappointed". The children all nod sagely and exchange significant glances. Gotcha. Except one who, until that point had not suspected a thing and goes home and tells mum. Who writes to the Bishop demanding that I be suspended from my ministry forthwith. Both the headteacher and my incumbent asked me to apologise, which I did and my apology was rejected in no uncertain terms. Apparently mum is now a fully paid up Dicky Dawkins atheist as a result of my intervention. Clearly this is a woman who thinks that irony is like goldy or silvery except made of iron.

I ran this past the two teachers in my family whose advice was; in future don't touch Santa with a bargepole but otherwise we think you can file that under massive overreaction. But apparently there are parents who wish to shield their offspring from whole going mad from the revelation bit. My sister has acquaintances who pride themselves on getting their kids to the age of 14 without twigging that the whole thing is made up. These people, if I may say so, need rather more robust examples of parenting to model themselves on. Brutus the Elder springs to mind.

My own daughter is six and is deeply suspicious of the tooth fairy racket on the grounds that we don't pay as much as some of the other parents. I am so proud.

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Karl: Liberal Backslider
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Oh, dear God, Father Christmas.

I confused the two of them myself, what with the beard, the underlying implausibility and the suspicion that they were an invention by parents to make you behave yourself.

The over-reaction you describe amazes me; I mean, if someone had let the cat out of the bag a bit earlier than I'd have liked with mine, it'd have been something to chunter about at beer o'clock, but as for actually complaining? Some people clearly don't have enough to occupy themselves (he says, posting on a bulletin board...)

[ 24. December 2013, 14:16: Message edited by: Karl: Liberal Backslider ]

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cliffdweller
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Santa never caused that much angst in my home. My kids all began to suspect around age 6 or 7. The first time they asked if Santa was real, I would ask, "do you really want to know?". They all said "no" for at least a year. When the "No" became "yes" I would simply tell them a bit about St. Nicholas (w/ or w/o the notorious nose-punching incident, depending on my current level of snarky humor). Then we'd explain that "Santa" is what we call someone who gives a gift anonymously, w/o seeking anything in return. We would continue the stockings afterwards, because the point of Santa was not some elaborate ruse, but the joy of giving a gift anonymously. Except now the kids were in on it, so they could join the fun-- giving little anonymous gifts to others. (The first Christmas my youngest son "knew" we each found a tiny pinecone in our stocking).

[ 24. December 2013, 14:17: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]

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Enoch
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Both the headteacher and my incumbent asked me to apologise, which I did and my apology was rejected in no uncertain terms. Apparently mum is now a fully paid up Dicky Dawkins atheist as a result of my intervention. Clearly this is a woman who thinks that irony is like goldy or silvery except made of iron.

The head teacher and your incumbent were wrong, and so was the bishop for not using his episcopal authority to tell the mother to grow up. If she hadn't been indulged, perhaps her soul would not be as lost and far from home as it now sounds as though it is.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by the giant cheeseburger:
They let him get to eleven before realising that, and then decided to put it off another year anyway?

I have to make a correction to the OP.

This lad is in fact 10 , birthday next summer and starts full time secondary in September . He already goes to secondary for maths lessons as he's exceptionally bright.
I guess he'll be fine , no doubt having the customary baptism of fire with the bigger lads pretty quickly .

My partner , (who grandson he is) , does think he's a tiny bit autistic or something of the like . His mother's had plenty of experience with other kids and parents, as she is a professional children-minder.

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Stercus Tauri
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What? He doesn't exist? Prove it!

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ExclamationMark
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Never used the Father Christmas stuff with mine.

Why would I want to tell them something and then admit later I'd been lying?

Some interesting conversations with other parents though ...

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Boogie

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Or ...

Put him on to NORAD - very convincing!

[Smile]

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Martin60
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He doesn't exist? Bullshit!

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Years later, I am a Curate taking a confirmation class in a C of E school. There is a room full of bright year sixers (i.e. 10 - 11). One of them asks if Father Christmas exists. This is obviously a QTWTAIN, so I say "Actually no

Something similar happened top a friend of mine as reported here. but the bishop wasn't involved. Plus, my friend retires om December 31st.

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Beeswax Altar
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quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
He doesn't exist? Bullshit!

[Overused]

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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I must admit that I could not bring myself to lie to my four children. What other parents do is their business, but I (and Mrs EE) just could not look into the eyes of innocence and trust and blatantly spin a yarn, knowing that the owners of those eyes of innocence and trust would believe it to be true.

And then to have to disabuse them of this bullshit so many years later...

... unthinkable.

I must say that our offspring don't really seem the worse for wear for having had this "truth treatment"!

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Forthview
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Of course,Santa exists.He exists in each one of us when we think kindly of others,particularly at Christmas time. We are privileged to be able to represent him when we give gifts to others to express in a tangible fashion the love which we have for them - a love like that of the good bishop Saint Nicholas for those who were less fortunate than himself.
Of course again children cannot always understand the symbolism and have to be told the story in a very simple way.

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Spike

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Perhaps the best way to explode the myth would be to "accidentally" let him see them filling the stocking or delivering the stocking to the foot of his bed. Other subtle tricks could be to leave price tags on some of the gifts, especially if they were bought from a local store or to "accidentally" leave one or two gifts unwrapped lying around the house. This way, they can let him work it out for himself rather than have to break the news to him, but as others have said, he may have already worked it out but doesn't feel able to say anything. If he catches his parents in the act, then he'll feel more comfortable talking about it.

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rolyn
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quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
Or ...

Put him on to NORAD - very convincing!

[Smile]

Apparently he loves that Boogie .

And of course sucking in all that knowledge about Global geography in the process [Ultra confused]

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deano
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I've never told either of mine that he doesn't exist. 15 and 11 and they still get the odd present labelled up "from Santa". I've never asked but I'm pretty sure that both of them know Santa doesn't really exist.

They are bright kids and they know how it really works, so why not all play along with a lovely bit of makebelieve? Why do we have to deny or ridicule small innocent bits of pleasure in this dismall world?

Santa is also a cultural tradition, so why not indulge? Small children love it and to not allow them that little bit of fantasy seems to me to be unneccessarily letting in a cold blast of reality. Older children can certainly still go along with the fantasy.

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IngoB

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You can buy a proper Saint Nicholas chocolate man here, properly with mitre and crosier (sorry, page in German). That will ease the shock... of seeing this (apparently breaking news from Poland).

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Spike

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quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I've never told either of mine that he doesn't exist. 15 and 11 and they still get the odd present labelled up "from Santa". I've never asked but I'm pretty sure that both of them know Santa doesn't really exist.

They are bright kids and they know how it really works, so why not all play along with a lovely bit of makebelieve? Why do we have to deny or ridicule small innocent bits of pleasure in this dismall world?


That's pretty much how it worked in my family. I think it was much the same for most of my friends too.

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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no prophet's flag is set so...

Proceed to see sea
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It really is an odd systematic lie we tell children isn't it? I suppose there are others, like people are basically kind and good*.


*Present company excepted of course.

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Enoch
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Some years ago I worked in a building that was near a bus station. One afternoon, I clearly heard over the tannoy the words "Would Father Christmas please go to the enquiry desk".

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que sais-je
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quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
It really is an odd systematic lie we tell children isn't it? I suppose there are others, like people are basically kind and good

Now I'm worrying about the lies they told me that I haven't found out.

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Seabird
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I remember being very young and waking up as my parents where leaving my presents at the bottom of my bed. I said I thought Father Christmas brought presents, they told me he delivered the gifts that came from far away like my aunt and uncle, so for a few years I thought he worked for the post office he had a red coat, they had a red vans and they both delivered things so to a young child it seemed straightforward.
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Olaf
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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas . Not easy when you've played alone with the idea that he does exist for their entire life.

Apparently it's the done thing to explode the myth before they get to secondary school least they get teased over it .

There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly . Maybe we should think twice about putting a glass of sherry , and carrot for the reindeer, out on Christmas night if future heartbreak is to be avoided.

There is no way to escape hearing other people talk about there being no Father Christmas. I'm willing to believe the son in question has already heard such things, especially being 11.
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Kelly Alves

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Wow, I just told this story on Facebook--

First item I was confronted with this issue I was backed into a corner by a group of 4-5 8 year olds who basically said, "Kelly, we know we can trust you. " (gaaahh) "So tell us, really is there a real Santa?"

I took a deep breath-- again,they had stated they trusted me, but I didn't want to wreck anybody's Christmas. So I said, "This is only my opinion, and you are free to believe anything you want. But I think it's more like a club-- a Santa club. If you like making kids happy and giving presents to people you can be part of that club. Some people even dress up as Santa, and that is like a uniform for the club. So yeah, I believe there is a Santa, but Santa is a lot of people."

Part of this comes from being the granddaughter of someone who "wore the uniform"-- every year, my grandfather would put on his Santa outfit and put on shows for family and friends. I think I first caught him changing when I was about three. I never grew out of Santa, but I never had any illusions about him, either.

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Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
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Try
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I'm a member of the "figured it out on my own but did not tell my parents" club. In my parent's household Santa stopped bringing presents when we turned 18 but still fills stockings with little gifts and food.

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Hairy Biker
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quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
I must admit that I could not bring myself to lie to my four children. What other parents do is their business, but I (and Mrs EE) just could not look into the eyes of innocence and trust and blatantly spin a yarn, knowing that the owners of those eyes of innocence and trust would believe it to be true.


It's not lies for heaven's sake! It's a bit of fun. I pity your children missing out on this tradition - not to mention the late night antics you've denied yourselves.

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there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help.
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Lyda*Rose

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My folks let us in on the secret early on. They addressed each other's packages to Santa and Mrs. Santa, and signed the ones to my brother and me from Santa and Mrs. Santa. I don't remember being traumatized.

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cliffdweller
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quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Wow, I just told this story on Facebook--

First item I was confronted with this issue I was backed into a corner by a group of 4-5 8 year olds who basically said, "Kelly, we know we can trust you. " (gaaahh) "So tell us, really is there a real Santa?"

I took a deep breath-- again,they had stated they trusted me, but I didn't want to wreck anybody's Christmas. So I said, "This is only my opinion, and you are free to believe anything you want. But I think it's more like a club-- a Santa club. If you like making kids happy and giving presents to people you can be part of that club. Some people even dress up as Santa, and that is like a uniform for the club. So yeah, I believe there is a Santa, but Santa is a lot of people."

Part of this comes from being the granddaughter of someone who "wore the uniform"-- every year, my grandfather would put on his Santa outfit and put on shows for family and friends. I think I first caught him changing when I was about three. I never grew out of Santa, but I never had any illusions about him, either.

Not unlike the version I told my kids upthread (that Santa is our name for giving presents anonymously, w/o looking to receive anything in return). I like the special tweaks you added-- just adds to the fun. None of my kids were every disappointed-- they were always excited to join the "club" of givers.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
Eliab
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# 9153

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My daughter (now 6) disbelieved in Santa last year (under her elder brother's influence). This year, she claimed to believe in him. With every appearance of sincerity.

Until late this afternoon when she took me aside for a conspiratorial chat, and with many a knowing look asked me that if Santa happened to be in a hurry this year, and 'left the presents on our roof' for me to deliver, could I please do this in disguise so that it will fool her (still sceptical) brother if he is still awake?

She's worked out not only that it is to her advantage to continue the charade, but also that it gives her the chance of putting one over on my son. I can't help but feel a little ambivalent about a tradition that encourages this sort of duplicity. My kids need encouragement to be devious about as much as they need encouragement to eat ice cream.

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"Perhaps there is poetic beauty in the abstract ideas of justice or fairness, but I doubt if many lawyers are moved by it"

Richard Dawkins

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Spike

Mostly Harmless
# 36

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quote:
Originally posted by Try:
I'm a member of the "figured it out on my own but did not tell my parents" club. In my parent's household Santa stopped bringing presents when we turned 18 but still fills stockings with little gifts and food.

He stopped when you were 18? Father Christmas continued to deliver me presents right up until my mother died 2 years ago [Big Grin]

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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing

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Jengie jon

Semper Reformanda
# 273

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I am coming to the conclusion the West is a very impoverished culture with its bi-modal approach to everything. Things either exist or they do not. Well I am sorry but I understoid at aged three that existence took many forms. In particular the way Santa existed was "PRETEND" which was the class that a lot of cultural myths fell into. These exist in the sense that they are part of the ritual of life and have tangible results, in other words they are the creation of our society. They seem to come in two forms, those who have ritual associated with them e.g. Santa Claus, tooth fairy and those that act as a warning to keep people out of danger when you do not want to give complex explanations e.g. Jack Frost. They often serve a secondary role in that they provide mythological types that help us develop our imaginative repertoir.

Jengie

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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge

Back to my blog

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rolyn
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# 16840

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As kids we never had the Santa routine from our parents , I think they were too down to earth for that.
We did though have the village Christmas party where an old guy used to dress up in a red robe and hand out pressies . Scared the crap out of some of us.

Despite all this the unique magic of Christmas Night did dwell in me up to the teenage years . Which I suppose is the time when we really begin to shed our skin where the innocence of childhood is concerned .

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Change is the only certainty of existence

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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784

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One of my kids once announced that God and Santa were brothers.

At the time my thought was "Isn't that cute." Now, I think he was right. God is love. Santa practices the expression of God's love by giving of himself to others. Santa doesn't go to Walmart to buy toys. Santa and his elves spend a year hand making toys just so children around the world can find joy. There is no desire for accolades because of the gifts, just the act of giving. If that is not a selfless expression of love for humankind I don't know what could ever be an expression of selfless love.

We need more role models of how to live out God's love, not fewer. So, my advice is not to tell kids Father Christmas doesn't exist. My advice is to tell your kids that Santa does exist every time we give of ourselves without expectation of reward just because it is a good thing to do.

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bib
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# 13074

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You mean he doesn't exist? I don't have to stay awake all night waiting for the reindeer to land on the roof any more? Does this mean I'm no longer on a naughty/nice list? Somehow all the fun has gone out of life for kids if they are not allowed to fantasise. [Waterworks]

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"My Lord, my Life, my Way, my End, accept the praise I bring"

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Dafyd
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# 5549

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I think I always knew Father Christmas was a game. We definitely grew up with Raymond Briggs.

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we remain, thanks to original sin, much in love with talking about, rather than with, one another. Rowan Williams

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The Rogue
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# 2275

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We've always played the Santa game. And I mean game. Last Christmas the youngest Rogueling (ten) said she didn't believe and I suspect that she had decided that a year or so before but wanted to still believe. She was well aware that there are unbelievers at school and in the family. Santa still gets his beer and mince pie, though.

I hate the naughty or nice bit.

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If everyone starts thinking outside the box does outside the box come back inside?

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:


I hate the naughty or nice bit.

We just leave that our. Santa is anytime you're giving gifts anonymously, w/o looking for recognition or reciprocation. The "naughty or nice" bit spoils that.

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

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Polly Plummer
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# 13354

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We never told our kids about Father Christmas so they didn't have anything to be disappointed about. They enjoyed Christmas just as much as everyone else. They knew other children talked about him and that it was a nice story. (My parents thought we were unkind not to tell the traditional fibs to them.)

The kids don't seem particularly maladjusted now, though I feel uncomfortable that my DIL makes a big fuss about him wtih the grandchildren. So far I've managed not to say anything about him to, or in front of, the grandkids.

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k-mann
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# 8490

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quote:
Originally posted by The Phantom Flan Flinger:
I'm wondering if it's the child or the parents who need the baloon popping....

Yep. I’m not married, and neither do I have kids, but I used to be a kid. Based on experience, I would be very, very surprised if a 11 year old kid doesn’t understand that Father Christmas isn’t real. I have heard of kids who themselves ‘played along,’ because they didn’t want to spoil the fun (of playing Father Christmas) for their father. (And, as others here have pointed out, to exploit the situation.)

quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
There are tales going around that kids can take it quite badly . Maybe we should think twice about putting a glass of sherry , and carrot for the reindeer, out on Christmas night if future heartbreak is to be avoided.

There can, of course, be some kids who might believe in Father Christmas, and take the revelation of his non-existence badly, but I highly doubt that this is very common. And especially not at the age of 11. I know of no one who really believed in Father Christmas when I was growing up. That doesn’t, of course, mean that no one does, but I suspect that many of the cases are just anecdotes – a kid here and a kid there. I highly doubt that you will have to stop ‘feeding Father Christmas’ because some kid out there might believe in it. If he does, at the age of 11, he has bigger problems than that.

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"Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt."
— Paul Tillich

Katolikken

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Gee D
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# 13815

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quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
Before next Xmas a member of my extended family has the task of explaining to her 11 yr old son that there isn't a real Father Christmas .

If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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Pigwidgeon

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# 10192

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quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?

The Lutheran Book of Worship?
[Confused]

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"...that is generally a matter for Pigwidgeon, several other consenting adults, a bottle of cheap Gin and the odd giraffe."
~Tortuf

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cliffdweller
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# 13338

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quote:
Originally posted by Pigwidgeon:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?

The Lutheran Book of Worship?
[Confused]

low-brow worship music?

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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner

Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008  |  IP: Logged
balaam

Making an ass of myself
# 4543

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quote:
Originally posted by The Rogue:
I hate the naughty or nice bit.

That's because you;re on the naughty list [Biased]

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Last ever sig ...

blog

Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003  |  IP: Logged
Gee D
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# 13815

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Leg before wicket. It's a very tricky rule, and the explanation is one of the important talks in the upbringing of a child.

I'd be very surprised if an 11 yr old had not already worked out there was no Father Christmas, either by her/himself or talking with friends. My parents never had such a talk with us, nor we in turn with Dlet. We use the Episcopal Church calendar at:

http://satucket.com/lectionary/Calendar.htm

and there's an excellent entry on 6 Dec explaining a possible origin of the Santa Claus story. It may be worth giving that to the boy.

[ 26. December 2013, 03:47: Message edited by: Gee D ]

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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican

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