Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Father Christmas doesn't exist ?
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pigwidgeon: quote: Originally posted by Gee D: If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?
The Lutheran Book of Worship?
Leg Before Wicket -don't ask me how it works, (no one ever had that talk with me) but in cricket a batsman/woman can be sent out LBW. Personally I think cricket is less interesting than watching paint dry, but it does have some rather arcane rules.
Huia
-------------------- Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gee D: ... the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?
Huia omitted to point out that this is relatively easy. If you are a batter it is not out. If you are a bowler it is out. If the umpire disagrees with you then he/she is clearly either myopic or corrupt. If he/she agrees he/she is a legend.
-------------------- shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Galloping Granny
Shipmate
# 13814
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Posted
Gildas wrote quote: Except one who, until that point had not suspected a thing and goes home and tells mum. Who writes to the Bishop demanding that I be suspended from my ministry forthwith. Both the headteacher and my incumbent asked me to apologise, which I did and my apology was rejected in no uncertain terms. Apparently mum is now a fully paid up Dicky Dawkins atheist as a result of my intervention.
Comment from Puzzled Presbyterian: Does this woman assume that Anglican belief encompasses Father, Son, Spirit and Santa Claus? If you don't believe in one you don't believe in the others? The response of the incumbent, the headmaster (and the bishop?) leaves me gobsmacked.
(I do get the bit about the tooth fairy though. My kids were getting five cents, while their friends next door got fifty cents, and I reckoned that the fifty of those days was too big for a fairy to carry.)
GG
-------------------- The Kingdom of Heaven is spread upon the earth, and men do not see it. Gospel of Thomas, 113
Posts: 2629 | From: Matarangi | Registered: Jun 2008
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Marvin the Martian
 Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jengie Jon: I am coming to the conclusion the West is a very impoverished culture with its bi-modal approach to everything. Things either exist or they do not. Well I am sorry but I understoid at aged three that existence took many forms. In particular the way Santa existed was "PRETEND" which was the class that a lot of cultural myths fell into.
Is it also the class into which religions fall?
-------------------- Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
I believe it is Marvin . Religion worldwide would be at far greater peace with itself by getting it's head around such a fundamental truth.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Zappa: quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: Most kids I know have figured out whilst still in single figures that there's no way a single man can get round the whole world in one night.
Silly ... the easter bunny and tooth fairy help him ...
We ask our kids to believe that God hears all the prayers of everyone in the world at the same time. And knows all our actions and even thoughts. I'd say a night's worth of present delivery is easy by comparison. However, I've never actually known a person who was conscious of 'finding out' about Santa, people seem to go from sort of believing to sort of not by osmosis. Probably because no one I know had parents who went to ridiculous lengths to actually lie about the existence of said person.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Taliesin: I've never actually known a person who was conscious of 'finding out' about Santa, people seem to go from sort of believing to sort of not by osmosis. Probably because no one I know had parents who went to ridiculous lengths to actually lie about the existence of said person.
Does it have to be explicit to be a lie?
Like our parents, we never mentioned Santa at home. But we did hide their presents at friend's houses 'till the kids were asleep. If friends mentioned Santa I was vague about it - I hated to say I believed in something I didn't, especially as GLE at the time.
I'm much easier going about it all now. We tracked Santa on NORAD all of Christmas eve this year (they are 25 and 27 now, no grandchildren yet) But I think any grandchildren that arrive will get the full Santa treatment!!
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
What Gildas said. A sort of verbal game, a figure of speech. Played by parents and children of maybe 5-8 years old. Younger children tend not to be linguistically sophisticated enough to play it but I think they know perfectly well that their parents do the stocking thing, but at that age you often go along with odd things your parents do, because you have nothing to compare them with.
And may God have mercy on other curates and vulnerable clergy under the care of Gildas's bishop ![[Disappointed]](graemlins/disappointed.gif)
-------------------- Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
I was going to start my own thread about this but people here have already hinted at it so I'll post it here.
I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.
If parents are firm in their belief that what the Bible says about Christ is pretty much literally true and teach that to their children but then playfully deceive their children to believe in a literal Santa - how could children not draw a comparison between the two beliefs?
As said before, Santa resembles God in so many ways. He rewards good and gives at the very least disappointment to the wicked (in some cultures, there is a "punisher" like Krampus in Austria at Christmas time that is the counterpart to the gift-giving Santa figure). He knows all of the sins and good deeds committed by all children. He can be anywhere at anytime, at least at Christmas. In movies about Santa Claus, he even talks in a moralistic and inspirational way (and often figurative) just like God does in movies.
If parents want their kids to believe in the literal truth of Christ's birth, life, death, resurrection, second coming, etc., I can't see how teaching kids to believe literally in Santa would not make them more likely to doubt the truth of what they were taught about Christianity once they learn that Santa does not literally exist.
If parents want their kids to think critically about religion and question even the literal nature of such events as the virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, second coming, etc., but still want their kids to join them in practicing a liberal Christianity, they are still likely to make their kids turn off to religion altogether once they realize that a literal Santa does not exist.
Even completely atheist parents shouldn't teach their kids that Santa literally exists, because I can't imagine kids not having trust in their parents damaged by the whole "there is no literal Santa" realization.
The story about a church minister being punished by parents and superiors for telling kids that Santa does not exist is very poignant. Children are bound to be even more likely to doubt anything a minister says about the literal life/death/resurrection of Christ if the minister plays along with an untruth about the literal existence of Santa.
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by stonespring: Even completely atheist parents shouldn't teach their kids that Santa literally exists, because I can't imagine kids not having trust in their parents damaged by the whole "there is no literal Santa" realization.
Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Taliesin: I've never actually known a person who was conscious of 'finding out' about Santa, people seem to go from sort of believing to sort of not by osmosis.
I'm pretty sure that was true of my experience - though, being the youngest, it is possible also that my bastard big brother told me. Still, it seems I wasn't totally traumatised, unless I've suppressed the memory, as he is living with me bloody near a half century later.
-------------------- shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Zappa
Ship's Wake
# 8433
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "
Yes, my early childhood was spent in Ghana - and the last two Christmases in Darwin ... sadly though, confirming all Professor Dawkins worst fears, I was too dumb to think of that.
Or maybe awe, mystery and excitement trumps logic. Which was my Christmas sermon this year.
-------------------- shameless self promotion - because I think it's worth it and mayhap this too: http://broken-moments.blogspot.co.nz/
Posts: 18917 | From: "Central" is all they call it | Registered: Sep 2004
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Hairy Biker
Shipmate
# 12086
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by stonespring: I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.
Both Father Christmas and traditional Christianity predate modern concepts of "literal truth". Or was your post supposed to be sarcastic?
-------------------- there [are] four important things in life: religion, love, art and science. At their best, they’re all just tools to help you find a path through the darkness. None of them really work that well, but they help. Damien Hirst
Posts: 683 | From: This Sceptred Isle | Registered: Nov 2006
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by ken: What Gildas said. A sort of verbal game, a figure of speech. Played by parents and children of maybe 5-8 years old. Younger children tend not to be linguistically sophisticated enough to play it but I think they know perfectly well that their parents do the stocking thing, but at that age you often go along with odd things your parents do, because you have nothing to compare them with.
And may God have mercy on other curates and vulnerable clergy under the care of Gildas's bishop
I think ken's got it right. My family were not Christian, and I grew up excitedly expecting Father Christmas (not Santa!) to bring our presents. One night I saw my dad creeping in quietly to put my stuff into the pillowcase at the end of my bed, and I was so pleased that I had been right - aha! I knew it was my dad all along! but I didn't let on to my parents that I knew. My own kids were brought up as churchgoers but we all played the same game - even when they grew up I sometimes asked what they wanted Santa/Father Christmas to bring.
I can't understand the attitudes of the people in Gildas's story.
-------------------- Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Pigwidgeon: quote: Originally posted by Gee D: If the parents ware agonising about this, how are they going to have the really difficult talk - the one where lbw is explained?
The Lutheran Book of Worship?
THANK YOU. I think this every freaking time i read lbw on the Ship, realize that can't be right, and desperately run through all the naughty euphemisms I know ...
-------------------- Er, this is what I've been up to (book). Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Boogie: Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "
As a matter of curiosity, does any Shipmate know whether Richard Dawkins has children or not?
Two deep philosophical/theological questions
1. Is the lbw rule in cricket more or less difficult to explain than the off-side rule in football.
2. Are there any philosophical or theological concepts that are more difficult to explain than either of those rules.
-------------------- Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
I spilled the beans to a Y4 class once, by comparing the Santa game to the one where the children know the teacher's first name but pretend that they don't, and the teacher knows that they know but pretends that they don't - we weren't a school that used them, and someone just had. Next day I was hauled up before the beak because of a parental complaint. I had assumed 8-year-olds had all worked it out.
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by leo: quote: Originally posted by Gildas: Years later, I am a Curate taking a confirmation class in a C of E school. There is a room full of bright year sixers (i.e. 10 - 11). One of them asks if Father Christmas exists. This is obviously a QTWTAIN, so I say "Actually no
Something similar happened top a friend of mine as reported here. but the bishop wasn't involved. Plus, my friend retires om December 31st.
This was the best part, i think:
quote: "Some parents threatened to pull their children out of a Christmas concert at his church, St Andrew's, in protest, arguing that they would not barge into one of his services and announce that the story of Jesus was a fiction.
Tatton-Brown's slip came as he delivered his festive address to pupils. A "technical issue" meant he had to work without notes and he told them that many believed the figure of Father Christmas was based on Saint Nicholas, a fourth-century saint renowned for his secret gift-giving. …
Linzi Merritt, whose son Levi, nine, attends the school, said: "We wouldn't just walk into the church during one of his services and tell everyone there that Jesus isn't real. He's a person of authority and it's not his place to be telling the children that.
"It's the older children who have suffered the most because their parents can't really talk their way out of it like the parents of younger children can.
"Loads of kids went home crying – it has ruined Christmas for them. It wasn't a nice story for children to hear, there were lots more he could have told. Not only has he spoiled Father Christmas for them, a lot of them are now questioning the existence of the tooth fairy as well."
I never knew these folks actually believed Father Christmas was real, which is the only way these reactions could make any lick of sense. Is Santafarianism a big religion in the UK?
-------------------- "Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." — Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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k-mann
Shipmate
# 8490
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Lyda*Rose: My folks let us in on the secret early on. They addressed each other's packages to Santa and Mrs. Santa, and signed the ones to my brother and me from Santa and Mrs. Santa. I don't remember being traumatized.
Maybe you have just repressed it… ![[Snigger]](graemlins/snigger.gif)
-------------------- "Being religious means asking passionately the question of the meaning of our existence and being willing to receive answers, even if the answers hurt." — Paul Tillich
Katolikken
Posts: 1314 | From: Norway | Registered: Sep 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by stonespring: I was going to start my own thread about this but people here have already hinted at it so I'll post it here.
I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.
If parents are firm in their belief that what the Bible says about Christ is pretty much literally true and teach that to their children but then playfully deceive their children to believe in a literal Santa - how could children not draw a comparison between the two beliefs?
As said before, Santa resembles God in so many ways. He rewards good and gives at the very least disappointment to the wicked (in some cultures, there is a "punisher" like Krampus in Austria at Christmas time that is the counterpart to the gift-giving Santa figure). He knows all of the sins and good deeds committed by all children. He can be anywhere at anytime, at least at Christmas. In movies about Santa Claus, he even talks in a moralistic and inspirational way (and often figurative) just like God does in movies.
If parents want their kids to believe in the literal truth of Christ's birth, life, death, resurrection, second coming, etc., I can't see how teaching kids to believe literally in Santa would not make them more likely to doubt the truth of what they were taught about Christianity once they learn that Santa does not literally exist.
If parents want their kids to think critically about religion and question even the literal nature of such events as the virgin birth, crucifixion, resurrection, second coming, etc., but still want their kids to join them in practicing a liberal Christianity, they are still likely to make their kids turn off to religion altogether once they realize that a literal Santa does not exist.
Even completely atheist parents shouldn't teach their kids that Santa literally exists, because I can't imagine kids not having trust in their parents damaged by the whole "there is no literal Santa" realization.
The story about a church minister being punished by parents and superiors for telling kids that Santa does not exist is very poignant. Children are bound to be even more likely to doubt anything a minister says about the literal life/death/resurrection of Christ if the minister plays along with an untruth about the literal existence of Santa.
You mean there's no more reason to believe in Christianity than you were told it was true by your parents, like with Santa?
Doesn't say lot for the faith really. Does it have any objective substantiation at all? Are we wasting our time?
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Eirenist
Shipmate
# 13343
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Posted
Of course Father Christmas exists. He is the Spirit of Christmas. Not so sure about Santa Claus though . . .
-------------------- 'I think I think, therefore I think I am'
Posts: 486 | From: Darkest Metroland | Registered: Jan 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Boogie: quote: Richard Dawkins said he doesn't tell kids that Santa doesn't exist - he says "lets think about it ... how many chimney's are in the world? ... "
So he doesn't come right out and say it, he leads them carefully through a series of statements until they come up with the 'right' answer.
Any child of school age can recognise this process. Teachers do it all the time.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Hairy Biker: quote: Originally posted by stonespring: I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles.
Both Father Christmas and traditional Christianity predate modern concepts of "literal truth". Or was your post supposed to be sarcastic?
How old is the idea of Father Christmas? Although St. Nicholas lived in the early first millenium AD/CE, the American conception of Santa Claus is not much older than the late 19th Century. As for Father Christmas, even if the idea of him goes back many centuries, the huge market of products and media protraying him (or his Santa Claus/St. Nicholas/Sinterklaas/Papa Noel brethren) as "real" for children's consumption is relatively new - but widespread enough that for children like me it seemed basically on par with the story of the Nativity as one of the 100% factual truths of Christmas. Yes I figured out that it porbably wasn't true by age 7, and my Mom told me that it wasn't when I asked and I cried. She had also told me from a very young age that the Bible should not be read literally and that priests have no more access to the truth or God than anyone else (note: I am not saying that that is what I believe now - not that I actually know what I believe now). So it seemed very strange to me that my parents would have not explained to me from the beginning that Santa Claus was something symbolic and a wonderful fantasy. In that way, he would have been just as real to me as Mickey Mouse (I spend a good deal of my childhood obsessed with Disney) - and even more real because Santa represents generosity and other good things and isn't just a commercial icon.
By literal truth I do not mean a purely literal interpretation of Scripture that excludes allegorical interpretation. I mean an interpretation that believes that Christ actually became flesh, actually was born of a virgin, actually died on a cross, actually rose again on the third day, etc. Whether you call that literal or not does not really matter. I think I believe this (although I have doubts and moments when I think I can believe it while allowing it to be possible that it is not "literally" true in certain ways) but what I believe is not important. A very large number of Christians want to teach their children some elements of the Christian faith, including certain "facts" about Jesus' life, death, and resurrection. They may also want to teach their children to think critically about these things and to appreciate signs and symbols in the way early Christians did. But even if they do that, teaching Christianity (which involves a whole lot of believing in things you cannot see based on trust and faith) to children can only be harmed by telling them that a real man comes to bring their presents and observes all their good and bad deeds, only to later admit to them that Santa only exists in spirit.
This is made even more harmful by the fact that submission to parental authority (which made fantasies imposed on kids and then imploded (or gently deflated) when parents deemed fit more appropriate) is no longer a priority in our society. I don't think submission to parental authority is a good thing, but I don't think benevolent deception of one's children on a grand scale leading to inevitable disappointment is either.
The scientific revolution's effect on our society also makes the scientific verifiability of things important even to young children. They may not really understand what the scientific method is, but if parents and other authority figures (like NORAD) tell them something is true even according to the scientific experts, children place a great deal of trust in that and it can only be damaging for that trust to be betrayed by the revelation that it is not, in fact, scientifically/literally/whatever you want to call it true (even if, when kids get older they realize it is too absurd to be true in that way).
Furthermore, children at a young age place incredible value on those things and people that give them good material things. They will like and love anyone who gives them candy, food, toys, etc. Church ministries to children know this and keep kids satisfied with lots of food and plaything tokens (even if some of them try to keep the food healthy and the playthings ethically relevant (whatever that means)). So to tell children that the good material things of Christmas (or at least the good material things that matter to them) are largely provided by one man (Santa or Christ? I'm saying Santa here because that is what children who expect Santa to bring them present actually think) - to tell children is like saying that their beloved uncle sends them presents from far away every year and then telling them when they are old enough that that uncle does not exist as a physical person.
I don't think Santa Claus/Father Christmas/whatever you call it is harmful to children - but I do think portraying him as a real, physical person is. The youngest children cannot tell the difference between reality and fantasy, but there is a whole age range of kids who recognize it enough to be upset when they are deliberately (even if benevolently) misled about something they care about. If you want Santa Claus/Father Christmas in kids' lives, tell them from the begining that it's a beautiful story and a spirit of giving and caring, but that there is not a real toy factory at the North Pole.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by k-mann: I never knew these folks actually believed Father Christmas was real, which is the only way these reactions could make any lick of sense. Is Santafarianism a big religion in the UK?
Every Christmas we get at least one story about a clergyman who visits a primary school and 'traumatises' young children by telling them Santa Claus doesn't exist. It's just part of the scenery.
OTOH, I'm sure some sociologist somewhere has analysed 'Santafarianism' and concluded that it contains all the right ingredients to be labelled a religion.
Its literalists are almost always young children, while older children have a type of mercenary, self-interested relationship with the religion that reminds us of the medieval peasantry and their provisional relationship with various RC saints. (Maybe they could be described as 'rice Santafarians'). Parents represent a category of clergy throughout the ages who don't believe, but who maintain the fiction of belief because they're convinced that belief is beneficial to a certain class of society - young children. There is clearly a de-conversion process. As for Santa himself, he is obviously believed to have supernatural, godlike powers, and he has his own 'angels' - elves - to help him.....
Yes, I'm sure we could argue that 'Santafarianism' was a religion in its own right.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
Yup. It's one of the signs of Advent - the Daily Mail claiming that you're not allowed to say Christmas any more, a made up story about a local authority banning nativity displays, and someone letting the cat out of the bag about Father Christmas.
-------------------- Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
I was just reading an article -- I wish I'd bookmarked it now -- about how it's actually psychologically healthy to play the Santa Claus/Father Christmas game with children; helps them go beyond concrete thinking, helps them learn the shared stories of their culture, etc.
My parents never explicitly said, "Yes, there is a Santa Claus," nor did I ever ask. I mean, Santa decorations were a fixture in our home; I still have my grandparents' celluloid Weihnachtsmann that we still hang on our tree; my parents might in passing refer to Santa delivering presents. But Santa was always very much a subordinate character in our Christmas celebrations, which centered around welcoming Baby Jesus and church activities.
But I was always something of a Santa skeptic, and did indeed perceive that the whole Santa thing was something of a game: My parents' too-facile explanation of multiple store Santas by telling me that he had many helpers disguised as himself; when I asked how Santa got to our house with presents before we got home from Christmas Eve services around 9:30 pm or so while other children didn't seem to receive their presents before Christmas Day, my father's explanation that Santa stopped at Lutheran homes first ; other discrepancies and fast-talking that led me to suspect that the Santa story was all in fun. And since I got presents regardless, it didn't really disillusion me. It was more of a riddle to be solved.
When my mom finally asked me if I believed in Santa Claus -- I think I was maybe six years old -- I answered, "I think Dad and Grandpa are Santa. And it turned out that Grandpa, who was not a churchgoer, was our stealth gift-deliverer.)
Our granddaughter is a Santa believer, so I play along. If I had young children, I don't think I'd discourage their belief in Santa, but I also wouldn't go out of my way to encourage it either. I'd engage in a lot of "What do YOU think?" and tell them the story of Nicholas, and gradually help them understand Santa as an embodiment of the spirit of giving without receiving," and help them experience how much fun it is to be an anonymous giver of gifts to people in need, who can't do anything for us in return.
*Postscript: That said...one of the things I hate, hate, HATE about Santa Claus is the "He knows when you are sleeping/he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good/so be good for goodness' sake." It really works against the concept of God's grace, which is independent of our presumptions of being "naughty" or "nice." I think I dislike that part of the Santa myth far more than the actual fibbing about his existence. [ 27. December 2013, 16:40: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
-------------------- Simul iustus et peccator http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LutheranChik: I was just reading an article -- I wish I'd bookmarked it now -- about how it's actually psychologically healthy to play the Santa Claus/Father Christmas game with children; helps them go beyond concrete thinking, helps them learn the shared stories of their culture, etc. <snip> *Postscript: That said...one of the things I hate, hate, HATE about Santa Claus is the "He knows when you are sleeping/he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good/so be good for goodness' sake." It really works against the concept of God's grace, which is independent of our presumptions of being "naughty" or "nice." I think I dislike that part of the Santa myth far more than the actual fibbing about his existence.
This 'Santa won't come if you're naughty makes me cringe a bit as well , yet aren't we on a parallel with -- 'The wages of sin are death' ? Also if Santa knows when we're sitting up , and he knows when we're lying down ? Sounds pretty close to Psalm 139 v1 to me .
Belief can indeed be a healthy thing . Maybe when secularism has done it's bit with the Santafarianism , who's to say the inevitable vacuum that follows isn't something that the substance of the Christian Faith couldn't eventually fall into.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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stonespring
Shipmate
# 15530
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LutheranChik: I was just reading an article -- I wish I'd bookmarked it now -- about how it's actually psychologically healthy to play the Santa Claus/Father Christmas game with children; helps them go beyond concrete thinking, helps them learn the shared stories of their culture, etc.
My parents never explicitly said, "Yes, there is a Santa Claus," nor did I ever ask. I mean, Santa decorations were a fixture in our home; I still have my grandparents' celluloid Weihnachtsmann that we still hang on our tree; my parents might in passing refer to Santa delivering presents. But Santa was always very much a subordinate character in our Christmas celebrations, which centered around welcoming Baby Jesus and church activities.
But I was always something of a Santa skeptic, and did indeed perceive that the whole Santa thing was something of a game: My parents' too-facile explanation of multiple store Santas by telling me that he had many helpers disguised as himself; when I asked how Santa got to our house with presents before we got home from Christmas Eve services around 9:30 pm or so while other children didn't seem to receive their presents before Christmas Day, my father's explanation that Santa stopped at Lutheran homes first ; other discrepancies and fast-talking that led me to suspect that the Santa story was all in fun. And since I got presents regardless, it didn't really disillusion me. It was more of a riddle to be solved.
When my mom finally asked me if I believed in Santa Claus -- I think I was maybe six years old -- I answered, "I think Dad and Grandpa are Santa. And it turned out that Grandpa, who was not a churchgoer, was our stealth gift-deliverer.)
Our granddaughter is a Santa believer, so I play along. If I had young children, I don't think I'd discourage their belief in Santa, but I also wouldn't go out of my way to encourage it either. I'd engage in a lot of "What do YOU think?" and tell them the story of Nicholas, and gradually help them understand Santa as an embodiment of the spirit of giving without receiving," and help them experience how much fun it is to be an anonymous giver of gifts to people in need, who can't do anything for us in return.
*Postscript: That said...one of the things I hate, hate, HATE about Santa Claus is the "He knows when you are sleeping/he knows when you're awake; he knows when you've been bad or good/so be good for goodness' sake." It really works against the concept of God's grace, which is independent of our presumptions of being "naughty" or "nice." I think I dislike that part of the Santa myth far more than the actual fibbing about his existence.
I think the resemblance of the idea of Santa to a Catholic understanding of Sin and Merit - I gues a kid can be naughty and still get presents as long as s/he goes to confession - is one reason why for me, as Catholic, the Santa story basically seems like a redressed-in-modern-commercialism version of pop-culture Christianity (at least in the terms of it that children understand), which never had much about sacrifice and death in it anyway outside of Evangelical and other devout circles. That's why I think a kid is pretty liable to think if Santa doesn't exist than maybe the stories about Jesus aren't true either. It's Atheism 101 to compare Christ to Santa Claus, the Tooth Fairy, and even "Peter Pan, Frankenstein or Superman" (thank you, Freddie Mercury). I'm fine with teaching kids to question everything and find their own answers, but if you deliberately mislead them they will be predisposed to not trust the religious beliefs you do intend to teach them.
Like other people on this thread, I think that we need to tone down the "cult of Santa Claus." Unlike the "Keep Christ in Christmas" people, I'm not talking about the Santa craze drowning out the celebration of the Nativity, but rather pointing out that the juxtaposition of one narrative (Santa) with a similar one (the Christ child), with one turning out to be inauthentic, is bound to leave a bad taste in children's mouths about the other narrative, especially among modern kids who don't take well to being lied to.
Posts: 1537 | Registered: Mar 2010
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
The wages of sin may be death, but (at least in some of our theologies) we're all naughty at least as much as we're nice. What then?
No, I'm not going to agree that Santa is an appropriate stand-in for God. In fact, I think the Santa myth tends to inculcate a negative understanding of God as Someone who provides "presents," whether the gift of eternal life or temporal happiness/prosperity,to those who are are good enough to make his cut. That's a mindset hard to unlearn.
-------------------- Simul iustus et peccator http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LutheranChik: That's a mindset hard to unlearn.
Doesn't it go with the image 'Father'?
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
My father didn't cast me into the outer darkness for being bad. (Although this is true in some families, which opens a whole 'nother kettle of worms for people with unloving, alienating fathers.) And even though he'd get angry with me, I still got good things from him; I didn't get lumps of coal for Christmas. [ 27. December 2013, 18:26: Message edited by: LutheranChik ]
-------------------- Simul iustus et peccator http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Anglo Catholic Relict
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# 17213
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Posted
I didn't like deceiving my d, so every year from when she was old enough to understand, I said something like this: 'Some people think that Santa is real, and that he brings presents for children. Other people think that mummy and daddy buy all the presents, and pretend they are from Santa because it is a fun thing to do. Which do you think is true?'
Every year she thought about it, and then said, 'I think Santa is true.' Then I replied, 'Lovely; if you think that, then so do I.'
When I thought she was old enough, at about 9 or 10 I told her myself; same beginning, different ending. She was upset for a while, but I told her that the magic is still real, even if Santa is not. And since then we have carried on exactly as before; Santa still comes.
Posts: 585 | Registered: Jul 2012
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Heavenly Anarchist
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# 13313
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Posted
My 12 year old says there is a boy in his class who still believes but I reckon he is just winding the rest of the class up. We decided not to do Santa with our two boys. It was a doddle with our rather literal eldest child, we told him Santa was not real but other children believed in him and he wasn't to spoil their fun by telling them. Worked perfectly. Our younger child, however, is a complete romantic and refused point blank to believe us he believed in Santa for years despite our efforts. We do have the tooth fairy but that has always been acknowledged as a game by both children, especially as she is rather forgetful.
-------------------- 'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams Dog Activity Monitor My shop
Posts: 2831 | From: Trumpington | Registered: Jan 2008
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chive
 Ship's nude
# 208
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Posted
I have a colleague who has four sons. Last year, the oldest, who I think was about 12, came up to her and told her he no longer believed in Santa. Fair enough. Instead of saying something along the lines of 'OK but don't tell your brothers because they still believe in him' she decided not to give him any presents at all on Christmas day and then told him he could have them on Boxing day if he told her he still believed in Santa.
Now that is fucked up.
-------------------- 'Edward was the kind of man who thought there was no such thing as a lesbian, just a woman who hadn't done one-to-one Bible study with him.' Catherine Fox, Love to the Lost
Posts: 3542 | From: the cupboard under the stairs | Registered: May 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Not sure how many Shipmates know of an animated film called Polar Express . This film was a real favorite of the young chap in OP . There's a bit on there about children who believed in Santa being able to hear a certain little bell ring whereas the adults , and children who didn't believe, were unable to hear it.
In this case the parents have a little plastic bell on their Christmas tree which in the past years he said he heard ringing , (it has no clapper or other mechanism ). This Christmas was the first time he said he couldn't hear it ringing . I guess he's letting the parents down gradually .
I think there is evidence that secularism , despite all it's largesse , has a need to bestow a form of spiritual magic onto it's young . ISTM that traditional Christian practice ceased to fulfil this need long ago , maybe it never did.
-------------------- Change is the only certainty of existence
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
The 'Santa myth' obviously performs an important function. I suspect that its function has increased as orthodox Christian belief has declined. It's an attempt to re-enchant a disenchanted world. I mean, in the days of St. Nicholas were little European peasant boys and girls really urged to invest their hopes in large hauls of toys appearing by magic?
Children are more precious today than previously. They don't have to be sent out to work, and they don't have to learn the ways of the world as quickly as possible. Parents don't have a lot of children and expect some of them to die; we can now afford to be sentimental about children, so I suppose the Santa myth is at the service of the cult of childhood.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
It's interesting, in that light, to notice how the age of disbelief in Santa/Father Christmas seems to be rising. When I was a kiddo in the 60's, any child over the age of maybe 8 who still expressed belief in Santa Claus was likely to be ridiculed by schoolmates and others. But DiL, a psychologist, tells us that her nephew/our granddaughter's cousin, who's 10 and lives in a pretty sophisticated environment (parents work in the entertainment industry and the kids have ample opportunity to experience the technical reality behind the unreality)is still a true believer, much to her bemusement as an aunt as well as a professional. It seems, from other posts, that this seems to be happening elsewhere as well.
-------------------- Simul iustus et peccator http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
Posts: 6462 | From: rural Michigan, USA | Registered: Jul 2005
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by LutheranChik: our granddaughter's cousin, who's 10 and lives in a pretty sophisticated environment (parents work in the entertainment industry and the kids have ample opportunity to experience the technical reality behind the unreality)is still a true believer,
I'm pretty sure 9-year-old eldest Cnihtlet has figured out both the Tooth Fairy and St. Nick, but she plays along for the benefit of he younger siblings (and probably because she's concerned that formally disavowing the myth might reduce her gift quota.)
The 5-year-old is a true believer.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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molopata
 The Ship's jack
# 9933
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider: quote: Originally posted by stonespring: [...] I think that telling kids that Santa Claus literally exists and then letting the kids learn that he does not predisposes kids to doubt that anything they were taught about religion is true - especially with traditional Christianity, since it involves a literal God-Man, literal historical events, and literal miracles. [...] Children are bound to be even more likely to doubt anything a minister says about the literal life/death/resurrection of Christ if the minister plays along with an untruth about the literal existence of Santa.
You mean there's no more reason to believe in Christianity than you were told it was true by your parents, like with Santa?
Doesn't say lot for the faith really. Does it have any objective substantiation at all? Are we wasting our time?
I concur with stonespring, and it is upstaged only by a tradition in Germany by which children are told that their presents are brought by the Christkindl, i.e. baby Jesus. (St. Nicholaus operates a separate franchise on 6th December from "The Woods").
Although I understand that the original meaning of the tradition was allegorical, when it transpires to a 8-year-old, who is capable of factual verification as expected in our post-Enlightenment society, but who has not yet fully developed an appreciation of symbolism and myth, that this is not in fact what is going on, there is a real chance she will close her heart to this whole God thing forever, even though, as Karl implies, there must be more to Christianity than Santafarianism.
-------------------- ... The Respectable
Posts: 1718 | From: the abode of my w@ndering mind | Registered: Aug 2005
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Nenya
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# 16427
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Posted
We told our children the truth but that Santa was a game people play and that we would play the game. So we did - mince pie for Santa, carrot for the reindeer and all. Mainly because we didn't want to lie and because Mr Nen still remembers how upset he was as a kid to find out it wasn't true.
I still remember how upset I felt when my dad said I was too old for a stocking, though. Our kids are in their 20s and still get one.
Nen - aka Mrs Santa.
-------------------- They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I believed in the tooth fairy far longer than FC - because I put her to the test, aged seven, and she passed!
I didn't tell anyone my tooth had come out, then I wrapped it in tin foil and put it in a glass right at the back of the cupboard. Lo! The next morning there was a sixpence, wrapped in tin foil. I remember my excitement telling my parents and friends. Awww, bless!
Anyone encountered Terry Pratchett's tooth fairy or the Hog-Father? Marvellous!
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
HO. HO. HO.
(does that answer your question, Boogie?)
The tooth fairy in our house has a moustache...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jane R: The tooth fairy in our house has a moustache...
Then she needs a good pair of tweezers, like the rest of us have.
I distinctly remember believing in the Tooth Fairy and writing a letter to her asking her to leave a fairy for me to keep. Of course I also came to the revelation that she didn't exist and if it was traumatic I have suppressed it.
When Nenlet1 was little she also wrote to the Tooth Fairy because ours didn't pay enough (20p per tooth) and she wanted the fairy who came to her friend over the road who paid £1. You should have heard Mr Nen. "A pound per tooth?? That's twenty quid a mouthful!!" I do wonder what she pays now.
Needless to say, the fairy over the road started coming to us. Nenlet1 at some stage asked about whether it was true and I said it was like Father Christmas, which she thought about and then said, "So it's you, then."
Boogie, your parents must be endowed with magical powers if they knew your tooth had come out and where you'd hidden it without telling anyone.
That post isn't very Purgatorial, sorry; in response to the OP, I'm pretty certain kids work it out around the age of 7 but keep up appearances for the parents.
Nen - generous Tooth Fairy. ![[Biased]](wink.gif) [ 29. December 2013, 11:28: Message edited by: Nenya ]
-------------------- They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
Posts: 1289 | Registered: May 2011
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Jane R
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# 331
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Posted
Nenya: quote: Then she needs a good pair of tweezers, like the rest of us have.
HE is quite happy with his moustache where it is, thanks.
Why the assumption that tooth fairies are always female?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Pine Marten
Shipmate
# 11068
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Posted
Upthread someone quoted Richard Dawkins doubting Santa could get to all those chimneys in one night. This is a few days late, but here is what Brian Cox says about it (don't know if he's good friends with Dawkins). Rather sweet, really .
-------------------- Keep love in your heart. A life without it is like a sunless garden when the flowers are dead. - Oscar Wilde
Posts: 1731 | From: Isle of Albion | Registered: Feb 2006
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Boogie
 Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Nenya: Boogie, your parents must be endowed with magical powers if they knew your tooth had come out and where you'd hidden it without telling anyone.
Haha - I imagine it was a fluke. But Mum and Dad were very, very tidy people so probably noticed the disturbed cupboard.
-------------------- Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Nenya
Shipmate
# 16427
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jane R: Nenya: quote: Then she needs a good pair of tweezers, like the rest of us have.
HE is quite happy with his moustache where it is, thanks.
Why the assumption that tooth fairies are always female?
I didn't make that assumption - I knew what you meant. Hence the ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- They told me I was delusional. I nearly fell off my unicorn.
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Daffodil
Apprentice
# 13164
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Posted
Rolyn said quote: This 'Santa won't come if you're naughty makes me cringe a bit as well , yet aren't we on a parallel with -- 'The wages of sin are death' ?
I think in my parents case any comments along these lines were an attempt to calm down 4 excited children!
I remember when I was about 7 talking to my mum about the boy over the road, who seemed to know that Father Christmas was going to bring him a bicycle. I remember asking her if she thought that Father Christmas might bring me a bicycle too... and she said that she didn't think he would. In our house our main presents came from our parents with stockings from Father Christmas, so I was sort of expecting that answer, but I remember feeling disappointed that Father Christmas didn't seem to treat all children equally!
My elder daughter presented us with a conundrum, when she was insistent that Father Christmas existed when she was 12. Her argument was that her friends didn't believe in Jesus either and she did! I got my thinking cap on, and then explained that Father Christmas was not actually a person, but the act of giving surprise presents.
My younger daughter (14) is autistic and completely able to engage with her imagination. Last Christmas she beginning to think that Father Christmas wasn't real. By this Christmas she was ready to believe again and informed me "You don't need to bother buying the presents Father Christmas will provide them!" She saw the grotto in town and was in 7th heaven! So I paid the money and we joined the queue. She debated pretending to be younger than she actually was, but I encouraged her to be her real age. There is no age limit for Father Christmas. The Elf in charge of managing the queue and briefing Father Christmas asked her what she would like for Christmas "A Lebanese Medical Dictionary" she replied. Her face lit up, her belief was total, and in the middle of the manic retail frenzy, I think both Father Christmas and the Elf encountered something magical. I hope God is as magical as my daughter thought Father Christmas was..
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