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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tackling Poverty
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
I don't agree with that. Tackling poverty is about making sure everyone has at least a decent standard of living, not about making sure everyone has the same standard of living.
If there are no poor people, it matters not that some are mega-rich while others are merely rich. Poverty has still been eradicated.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If there are no poor people, it matters not that some are mega-rich while others are merely rich. Poverty has still been eradicated.
I think it a reasonable argument that the mere presence of a mega-rich class is a driver of poverty, and by making a society in which it is difficult to become that rich, poverty is less likely.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
I think it a reasonable argument that the mere presence of a mega-rich class is a driver of poverty
In other words, you don't think a society such as the one I described - where the standard of living of the poorest person corresponds to what we would today call "rich" - could ever be possible.
I'd be interested to hear why.
quote:
and by making a society in which it is difficult to become that rich, poverty is less likely.
I disagree. Merely preventing certain individuals from becoming mega-rich doesn't put any more food on any other individual's plate. The London banker being denied his massive bonus doesn't benefit the unemployed Sheffield steelworker at all - it just drags the former a little further down towards the latter. I prefer solutions that drag the latter up towards the former.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
In a post-scarcity society, you'd be right to say it doesn't matter how much group A has, because group Z has more than sufficient.
However, we don't have a post-scarcity society. Not only do we not have a post-scarcity society, but it's in the best interest of the rich not to have one, because then there'd be no kudos in being rich. The rich often get rich at the expense of the poor. The rich hoard land and resources rather than utilise them. The more mega-rich there are in a society, the more poor people there are - if you want to work towards the elimination of poverty (and don't have access to a nanoforge replicator), you need to work towards curtailing the excesses of the mega-rich.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
Is it not possible to ensure a minimum comfortable standard of living for everyone (i.e. to eradicate poverty) while still permitting some individuals to be (or become) rich?
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
In other words, you don't think a society such as the one I described - where the standard of living of the poorest person corresponds to what we would today call "rich" - could ever be possible.
But don't we have that now? In the UK or US, most of today's poor are unimaginably wealthy by the standards of a mediaeval peasant or Victorian pauper.
The US is not exactly known for its generous welfare state, but even the homeless and indigent are better off than many pioneers.
Standards have changed. Things that we assume are basic necessities now would have been luxuries (or magic) to our ancestors.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Indeed, thanks to "the recession" (TM) my office was merged with another and went from being 500 yards from my front door, to 40 miles down the motorway - a journey I've now done every day for 4 years. Demands, standards and expectations are constantly changing.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is it not possible to ensure a minimum comfortable standard of living for everyone (i.e. to eradicate poverty) while still permitting some individuals to be (or become) rich?
Yes, but that needs the cooperation of the rich, which they evidently appear to be withholding.
Instead, the poor (in this country at least) are being shat upon, while the rich have not just increasing wealth, but an increasing share of the wealth. While this continues, the eradication of poverty will remain a class struggle, poor versus rich, socialism versus neo-capitalism.
I wish I could say it was different, but it seems that the accumulation of wealth trumps most things, and the rich never give up any of their privileges willingly. The longer it goes on, the more likely it'll end badly.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Is it not possible to ensure a minimum comfortable standard of living for everyone (i.e. to eradicate poverty) while still permitting some individuals to be (or become) rich?
Jeffrey Sachs (whose research was the basis for the millennial goals) seems to think so-- although ending what he calls "extreme poverty" will require sacrifices.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Wealth is power, that's the great problem with inequality. The rich can pay for better schools, better jobs for their children, better lawyers, better treatment when they're sick, better service all round. Money buys political influence and social status, and that's a zero sum game.
Also, I think it's misleading to think of poverty in terms of things we can buy. All our spending can, in the last resort, be factored as the purchasing of other people's time. Some things we buy are nothing but other people's time: care for the elderly, piano lessons, service in a restaurant. Other goods can be resolved into time: the time it took the miner to cut the coal I burnt, plus the time of the bus driver that got him to work, and the time of the people who manufactured the bus, and the payroll staff that paid them, and the health and safety officers, architects, plumbers, town planners, etc.
Within our economy we are all buying each other's time, and our relative rates of pay determine how much we can buy and how much we have to work. TVs may get cheaper and cheaper, but things that require lots of other people's time will always be expensive for the poor.
Cheap energy helps, because people's work is more productive, especially manual work. It also enables rich countries to outsource production to low wage economies. It is a labour extender, but it doesn't change the overall picture.
[ 03. January 2014, 15:01: Message edited by: hatless ]
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
It's all relative and will remain relative.
Poverty in the West is wealth in Third World countries. Arguably, Western societies guarantee through social welfare and charity that nearly every person has food, shelter, clothes, a free education, and some access to medical care. Problem is the rich in the West are so much richer than most of the rich people (though certainly not all) in the Third World.
The middle and working classes look at what they get for working 40+ hours a week, compare it to the super rich, and realize they don't have much more than those living off of welfare and charity. As a result, we start to resent the rich. I say we because I resent most of them as much as anybody. They are greedy bastards. Would it kill them to be satisfied with being just stinkin rich instead of filthy stinkin rich? Couldn't they pay a living wage to their workers? Couldn't they keep jobs in the nation that created the environment for their success? So...I think most of us can agree the rich need to be taken down a peg even if we disagree on how many pegs the rich need to be taken down.
But, remember, it's all relative. Mao tried to achieve a completely equal society in China. How did that work? Pot tried to create a completely equal society in Cambodia. How did that work? Ah, but what about Scandinavia? Scandinavia is composed of four, resource rich nations with small and homogenous nations. I don't think a single one of them has a population greater than New York and New York is far more diverse. Scandinavia is also not purely equal.
Unless a society is completely equal, somebody will always have more. If the opportunity for inequality exists, those wanting more will strive to get it. The lucky and talented will get more. The winners will then enjoy the spoils of success. The losers will resent them for it. Before long, you'll have calls for more equality. Sure, we all have clothes but their clothes are nicer. Yes, we all have basic amenities but they have more. Is it really right that the children of the relative poor have cheaper clothes and fewer amenities than the rich? It puts them at a disadvantage.
So, let's have even more equality. Now, here is the thing. The poor we will have with us always. The lumpen proletariat we will also have. There will always be people who don't want to contribute to society. Paul recognized it in Thessalonika. Some will break the law to get more. Others will be content to mooch off the rest of society. All the work required to live in a modern society will still need to be done. How long before the most intelligent and most talented start to resent everybody else because they aren't allowed to benefit from the sacrifices and contributions they make?
Well, perhaps, those blessed individuals could be content with the prestige and respect given to them. Perhaps, they could. However, prestige and respect only work if you care about prestige and respect. I'm thinking that more readily happens in small and relatively homogenous communities.
As I see it, the solution is less centralization. We need more federalism in the United States. Let states have more power. Let cities have more power. I'm more conservative than most Shipmates. However, I believe that Vermont should have the ability to create a socialist utopia. I want Mayor Blasio to have the power to deal with inequality in New York. Yes, I also want the federal government to leave the red states alone as well.
Now, for the life of me, I don't know what any of that has to do with Christianity. As I see it, we live in a fallen world populated by fallen people. The ideal society cannot be created by humans. Only God can establish that.
Christians should spend more time spreading the gospel and making disciples. Only a society of the sanctified can live in perfect harmony. Only the second coming of Christ will bring that to fruition. Spending to much time arguing about politics and how we can usher in the Kingdom by legislative fiat or revolution only distracts Christians from doing what we really can be doing to make the world a better place.
I suspect we spend so much time discussing politics because we've lost faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. We have a form of godliness but deny the power. Christianity has been reduced to a collection of moral musings. Christians love those musings. We love the person who said them. Many of us have just ceased to believe he is anything more than a great (perhaps even the greatest) teacher among any number of great teachers. Given the loss of faith, I guess it makes sense to argue endlessly about politics.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
BA, you make good points. However I am hearing about larger gaps between rich and poor in our countries. The gap has increased. So our progress seems a little negative. The major difference I have personally noticed is lower tax rates for higher income levels and fairly steady on low and moderate incomes. I have noticed the trend since the early 1980s personally.
But I think the real problem for us is the tendency to decide that God and Jesus bless our fiscal policies and economic plans and consider them superior to other plans. At least this seems to be our leaders' suggestions.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I suspect we spend so much time discussing politics because we've lost faith in the power of the Holy Spirit. We have a form of godliness but deny the power. Christianity has been reduced to a collection of moral musings. Christians love those musings. We love the person who said them. Many of us have just ceased to believe he is anything more than a great (perhaps even the greatest) teacher among any number of great teachers. Given the loss of faith, I guess it makes sense to argue endlessly about politics.
And the poor will simply turn around and quote Marx at you. I have no qualms about wanting to change the world to better reflect what I believe the Kingdom of God to be. If all you do is offer people pie in the sky when they die, and do nothing about justice and righteousness here on Earth, they'll turn away from you.
What you're saying is the problem, not the solution.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
That's fine. I'm Calvinist enough to accept that not everybody will accept the Gospel. Those who reject it will be rich, poor, and middle class. Marxism will give the poor more war and more death and more disillusion. They'll meet the new boss and find he's the same as the old boss. Objectivism will lead to the same downfall similar philosophies brought to the monarchies of Europe. Marx was an atheist. Rand was an atheist. Christianity shouldn't be driven by the political philosophies of atheists. Hearts and lives have to be changed before this world gets any better. I believe in a God who does just that. I have no use for a religion that does little more than sanctify political opinions.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Beeswax Altar: quote:
Poverty in the West is wealth in Third World countries.
This is only relevant to the British and American poor if they are able to move to a Third World country whilst retaining their current possessions and income. If they can't (and there are squads of people at international borders to ensure that they can't) then they are stuck with the high cost of living in their own society, and being told that having an indoor toilet is the height of luxury for the majority of the world's population does not really help them work out where their next meal is coming from.
quote:
Poverty in the West is wealth in Third World countries. Arguably, Western societies guarantee through social welfare and charity that nearly every person has food, shelter, clothes, a free education, and some access to medical care.
And yet we still have homeless people, food banks and poor children in the UK are lagging behind rich ones. People in the UK have died because they couldn't afford to heat their houses. I wouldn't describe them as rich.
I could mention the US healthcare system, but let's just confine ourselves to the NHS - which is mostly free apart from prescription charges, dental treatment, eye tests and parking fees at hospitals. It has been estimated that cancer treatment can cost as much as repayments on your mortgage. I'd hate to think how much it would be if you had to pay the full medical costs as well.
[ 03. January 2014, 16:52: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
No one quotes Marx. They mostly aspire to get work that pays a living wage, to have some meaning in life, and to be loved. I have only ever heard earnest university students whose education is funded by their parents quoting Marx, and today, probably reading it off their phone screen, the phone also paid for by mummy and daddy.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
And things our ancestors never needed to do--like commute 30 miles to work each way--are now absolute necessities for some people
Yes, including the rich.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by JaneR:
This is only relevant to the British and American poor if they are able to move to a Third World country whilst retaining their current possessions and income. If they can't (and there are squads of people at international borders to ensure that they can't) then they are stuck with the high cost of living in their own society, and being told that having an indoor toilet is the height of luxury for the majority of the world's population does not really help them work out where their next meal is coming from.
Sure, they wonder where their next meal will come from but they don't starve. In Third World nations, people actually starve to death. I doubt many in the West spend that much time worrying about where their next meal will come from. Towards the end of the month, more people than usual worry about where their next meal will come from than the rest of the month. Some of that is due to an inability to plan and prepare meals. Of course, we could do a better job teaching such skills. Come the revolution, people lacking such skills will not pose much of a threat to the army of their bourgeoisie capitalist overlords.
quote:
originally posted by JaneR:
And yet we still have homeless people, food banks and poor children in the UK are lagging behind rich ones. People in the UK have died because they couldn't afford to heat their houses. I wouldn't describe them as rich.
I could mention the US healthcare system, but let's just confine ourselves to the NHS - which is mostly free apart from prescription charges, dental treatment, eye tests and parking fees at hospitals. It has been estimated that cancer treatment can cost as much as repayments on your mortgage. I'd hate to think how much it would be if you had to pay the full medical costs as well.
I said welfare benefits and charity. Food banks are charities. Sure, the rich have access to better education. The rich will always have better access to education. They'll always have access to better medical care as well. That's the point.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
In Third World nations, people actually starve to death. I doubt many in the West spend that much time worrying about where their next meal will come from. Towards the end of the month, more people than usual worry about where their next meal will come from than the rest of the month. Some of that is due to an inability to plan and prepare meals.
(bold mine)
This is largely a misconception. Yes, this describes some people, but it denies the reality of many others. When living at the lower end of the economic spectrum, there is little extra. This means even small unforeseen occurrences put one into a bind.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I don't know the situation in the USA but in the UK there are hundreds of thousand of people, mostly unemployed and many with children, living in what is laughably called temporary accomodation. How do you plan and prepare meals when you have nowhere to store and prepare food, let alone cook it and eat it apart from sat around your bed in a B&B? They are the people who eat out at McD's, KFC and the chip shop with Subway providing a healthy alternative. While the benefits can provide an adequate diet, you need a kitchen, of some sort, to do it.
Solving parts of the problem solves none of it. You can teach a man to fish as the saying goes, but if he is not allowed near a river, what's the point?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I have no use for a religion that does little more than sanctify political opinions.
Bzzt. That's exactly what you're doing.
I have no use for a religion that does little more than heap platitudes on the poor and does nothing to confront the rich.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
I did say some. Describes several people I've met. However, I will say it is a difference between the rural and urban poor.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
I have no use for a religion that does little more than sanctify political opinions.
Bzzt. That's exactly what you're doing.
I have no use for a religion that does little more than heap platitudes on the poor and does nothing to confront the rich.
No, I'm not. Read my entire post. I have political opinions. I would never claim to know if Jesus would support them or not. As far as I'm concerned, politics is always about choosing the lesser of evils. The Kingdom of God is more than the least evil society that humans can build using their own power and wisdom.
Confronting the rich with what? The teachings of an ancient Jewish teacher killed 2,000 years ago? Who cares? The teaching of God Incarnate would be a different story. But...we tend to downplay or turn the deity of Christ into a metaphor.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
As I see it, we live in a fallen world populated by fallen people. The ideal society cannot be created by humans. Only God can establish that.
I'll go along with that . Only it won't happen in this world but the next . Whatsmore I believe we who call ourselves Christians will be lined up with non-Christians , and the mega-rich will stand equal to the pitifully poor.
There'll be no more poverty , no more platitudes, no more political posturing.
In the meantime I finding myself wanting to give more to direct-help disaster charities and less to the church.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, I'm not. Read my entire post. I have political opinions. I would never claim to know if Jesus would support them or not. As far as I'm concerned, politics is always about choosing the lesser of evils. The Kingdom of God is more than the least evil society that humans can build using their own power and wisdom.
Bzzt. Deciding that you can't know if Jesus would support your political opinions (genocide? labour camps? wars of expansion? involuntary live organ donations?) is both a religions and a political decision in itself, and not a very good one at that.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Beeswax Altar: quote:
The rich will always have better access to education. They'll always have access to better medical care as well. That's the point.
That may be your point. Mine is that even with an allegedly level playing field such as the NHS, some people have to choose between buying food and paying for transport to their hospital appointment. I say these people are poor. You seem to be denying their existence, or saying they have nothing to grumble about because people in other countries are much worse off. I notice you haven't commented on last winter's extra deaths. Presumably it's OK for people to die of the cold if they've got something to eat?
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
No, I'm not. Read my entire post. I have political opinions. I would never claim to know if Jesus would support them or not. As far as I'm concerned, politics is always about choosing the lesser of evils. The Kingdom of God is more than the least evil society that humans can build using their own power and wisdom.
Bzzt. Deciding that you can't know if Jesus would support your political opinions (genocide? labour camps? wars of expansion? involuntary live organ donations?) is both a religions and a political decision in itself, and not a very good one at that.
Enough misery was caused in the name of Karl Marx alone. God only knows what damage can be in the names of both Jesus AND Marx. We aren't going to agree. You see my position as being part of the problem. I see your position as part of the problem. You want to put your faith in humans to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven? Good luck with that.
quote:
originally posted by JaneR:
That may be your point. Mine is that even with an allegedly level playing field such as the NHS, some people have to choose between buying food and paying for transport to their hospital appointment. I say these people are poor. You seem to be denying their existence, or saying they have nothing to grumble about because people in other countries are much worse off. I notice you haven't commented on last winter's extra deaths. Presumably it's OK for people to die of the cold if they've got something to eat?
The article said most of the deaths were caused by flu, respiratory illness, and heart disease. From that article, I don't know if one single person died because they didn't have access to heat on cold nights. I'm not taking a position on whether it's right for people to grumble or not grumble. My point is that people will grumble no matter what you give them. Some people will always demand more. How about this? At what point, would you tell a poor person, "I'm sorry but you've been given enough." And, yes, rich people will never be satisfied with how much money they have either. Again, that's the point.
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
People in the UK have died because they couldn't afford to heat their houses.
I would like to see the evidence for this - that someone literally froze to death because the heating was no on because they had no choice.
Let's not forget that every pensioner gets a £200 tax free fuel allowance to pay for their heating - £300 if you're over 80 - and on top of that, if the temperature dips below 0 degrees for 7 days you get an extra £25 for that 7 day period.
AFAIAA no one is allowed to have their heating cut off by the energy companies for non-payment of fuel bills.
It seems to me that if anyone is turning their heating off it's out of ignorance of the circumstances and irrational fear of inability to pay.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jengie jon
Semper Reformanda
# 273
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Posted
Mudfrog
Here you are
Jengie
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"To violate a persons ability to distinguish fact from fantasy is the epistemological equivalent of rape." Noretta Koertge
Back to my blog
Posts: 20894 | From: city of steel, butterflies and rainbows | Registered: May 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Could you point out where the report gives the number of people that died because they couldn't afford to heat their homes? Mudfrog wanted evidence that a person died because their heat was cut off due to inability to pay their heating bill. I didn't see any such evidence in that report. Perhaps, I missed it.
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
or perhaps you assumed that if people didn't have enough money to (securely) heat and buy food that they would still try running on full heat till their power cuts off (instead of turning the thermostat down, because they could just put on another jumper and a bit of flu won't kill them).
Posts: 1643 | Registered: May 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
You want to put your faith in humans to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven? Good luck with that.
Actually, no.
We'll never get to the destination on our own. The signposts are clear enough, though. We can differ on policy, but "does this oppress the poor?" and "does this promote justice?" are the minimum yardsticks we should measure those policies against.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Soror Magna
Shipmate
# 9881
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
... You want to put your faith in humans to bring about the Kingdom of Heaven? Good luck with that. ......
So since humans can't create the Kingdom of Heaven, there's no need to do anything about Hellish conditions on Earth? I don't buy that. To paraphrase Teresa of Avila, God has no hands but ours to do God's work. Sometimes our hands get together to do God's work in churches or governments or charities, sometimes we work as individuals. There's never a single perfect solution, but multiple approaches can add up to a positive change.
It's all too easy to throw one's hands up and say that since we're all fallen humans, life will always be crap. It's a nice, lazy way to blame God for all our miseries, duck any responsibility to alleviate the misery that we ourselves cause, and cynically undermine any effort to not cause it in the first place.
Posts: 5430 | From: Caprica City | Registered: Jul 2005
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Mudfrog
Here you are
Jengie
That paper says nothing about why there are more deaths in winter. It certainly isn't proof that all the extra deaths during those months are due to an inability to heat their homes.
Maybe people fall over more in winter, because of all the ice. Maybe there are more car crashes for the same reason. Maybe the fact that the Christmas period - notorious for featuring an increase in domestic violence and suicide - occurs during winter is a factor. One thing is for sure - it sure doesn't provide meaningful support for your contentions.
[ 03. January 2014, 21:32: Message edited by: Marvin the Martian ]
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Jay-Emm
Shipmate
# 11411
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Jengie Jon:
Mudfrog
Here you are
Jengie
That paper says nothing about why there are more deaths in winter. It certainly isn't proof that all the extra deaths during those months are due to an inability to heat their homes.
Maybe people fall over more in winter, because of all the ice. Maybe there are more car crashes for the same reason. Maybe the fact that the Christmas period - notorious for featuring an increase in domestic violence and suicide - occurs during winter is a factor. One thing is for sure - it sure doesn't provide meaningful support for your contentions.
Try looking at fig 4 to begin, then move on to table 1
[actually your injuries are on there]
[ 03. January 2014, 21:34: Message edited by: Jay-Emm ]
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
From the Causes of winter mortality:
quote:
Although EWM is associated with low temperatures, conditions directly relating to cold, such as hypothermia, are not the main cause of excess winter mortality. The majority of additional winter deaths are caused by cerebrovascular diseases, ischaemic heart disease and respiratory diseases
quote:
Previous research has shown that although mortality does increase as it gets colder, temperature only explains a small amount of the variance in winter mortality, and high levels of excess winter mortality can occur during relatively mild winters
So, it's simply proven, or even alleged by the statistics, that people die because they are frightened to heat their homes.
[ 03. January 2014, 21:59: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Soror Magna:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
[qb]So since humans can't create the Kingdom of Heaven, there's no need to do anything about Hellish conditions on Earth? I don't buy that. To paraphrase Teresa of Avila, God has no hands but ours to do God's work. Sometimes our hands get together to do God's work in churches or governments or charities, sometimes we work as individuals. There's never a single perfect solution, but multiple approaches can add up to a positive change.
It's all too easy to throw one's hands up and say that since we're all fallen humans, life will always be crap. It's a nice, lazy way to blame God for all our miseries, duck any responsibility to alleviate the misery that we ourselves cause, and cynically undermine any effort to not cause it in the first place.
Our societies have limited interests in disadvantaged people. We are more interested in war, profit and control. Christians need to be very careful about putting a few drops of perfume into the cesspond and thinking it is God's work. The tension is whether Christianity should stand with society or apart from it. In my jaded middle age , I have revised my youthful opinion.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
\_(ツ)_/
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Huh
Wonder how cynical I'll be when I'm your age?
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
People in the UK have died because they couldn't afford to heat their houses.
I would like to see the evidence for this - that someone literally froze to death because the heating was no on because they had no choice.
Let's not forget that every pensioner gets a £200 tax free fuel allowance to pay for their heating - £300 if you're over 80 - and on top of that, if the temperature dips below 0 degrees for 7 days you get an extra £25 for that 7 day period.
AFAIAA no one is allowed to have their heating cut off by the energy companies for non-payment of fuel bills.
It seems to me that if anyone is turning their heating off it's out of ignorance of the circumstances and irrational fear of inability to pay.
Many people who have to choose between heating and eating are not eligible for the winter fuel allowance due to their age - but still have to pay the same bills. A lot of people in fuel poverty are on metered fuel so wouldn't be cut off, but cannot afford to top the meter up. It is also more expensive to use a meter than have bills because people can often get better deals for using direct debits.
When I was living in a hostel for vulnerable young people, I regularly had no heating at all because our only heaters were electric storage heaters which are expensive to run, and could only pay via a meter.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
From the Causes of winter mortality:
quote:
Although EWM is associated with low temperatures, conditions directly relating to cold, such as hypothermia, are not the main cause of excess winter mortality. The majority of additional winter deaths are caused by cerebrovascular diseases, ischaemic heart disease and respiratory diseases
quote:
Previous research has shown that although mortality does increase as it gets colder, temperature only explains a small amount of the variance in winter mortality, and high levels of excess winter mortality can occur during relatively mild winters
So, it's simply proven, or even alleged by the statistics, that people die because they are frightened to heat their homes.
Or because they are ineligible for help with heating bills due to being too young. Or live in houses with insufficient heating equipment and unscrupulous landlords. Or because they have to use a meter and cannot afford to top it up (very common). Or because they live hand to mouth and cannot save, and an unexpected bill has meant choosing between heating and eating. Or because they are vulnerable to bullying by energy companies and are not properly made aware of their rights, eg it's illegal to cut off heating if there are young children in the house but energy companies will still harass the occupants. I am surprised that a SA officer, who must have a lot of contact with vulnerable people, is so unaware of the reality of fuel poverty.
I see a distinct lack of joined-up thinking, between people's suffering and the government policies which cause or contribute towards that suffering. This is not aimed at the SA specifically - heaven knows the CoE needs to be louder regarding this - but it does puzzle me as to why those on the front line of the reality of poverty are not more condemnatory of those policies which cause or exacerbate poverty. Why is it just the Pope saying these things, and where are the other churches?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Ah Jade, now you move onto a subject I agree with you upon. We have, of course, been discussing the elderly and the allegation that they die of cold in the winter due to the 'fact' that they can't afford to heat their homes despite the £200 or £300 tax free handout to do just that...
But if you want to change the subject to fuel poverty in general then I'm happy to do that ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
I agree that one of the first things that should happen is that metered gas and electricity should be as cheap to buy as the fuel paid for by direct debit. The reason for that is quite simple - people on fortnightly benefits cannot set up a monthly direct debit. It's not fair that they are forced to pay higher prices.
You have no argument from me on that one - and yes, I do see fuel poverty.
One of our African refugees has just asked her fuel provider to change her onto metered fuel because she doesn't like receiving a bill every quarter. She is on benefits and she will now pay a slightly higher rate but at least, she says, she will know where she stands and not be surprised by a big bill at the end of the winter quarter.
I;'m not quite sure what the answer is to be honest - we can't go down the road of reducing retail prices for products for people under a certain income level - we don't sell cornflakes or t-shirts at a different price for you at the same shop just because you're on benefits - so I don't know what should happen other than to ensure that people can switch to cheaper tariffs and for landlords to be forced to insulate the houses and flats that low income tenants rent from them.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
Making it compulsory for landlords to agree to insulation being installed would help. Currently people receiving a range of benefits can get free or subsidised insulation to their rented property but they need the permission of their landlord. Making it illegal to withhold that permission without good cause would help a lot.
I also think better regulation of fuel prices would help. There should be an personal energy budget distributed between petrol, gas and electricity. Raise duty on standard prices but offer a substantial discount on the first X kWh. That way if you can't afford a car you are more likely to be able to afford to heat your home. If you drive long distances in a polluting car and have a large house and keep leaving things running then you will pay through the nose.
Those of you supporting those using pre-payment meters may find it helpful to direct them to EBico - they don't have a standing charge and charge all customers the same. It won't help people on coin meters, but card meters it can save a fair amount over some other suppliers.
As for the winter fuel allowance, that might last a month of heating an old house to a suitable temperature for an elderly person. Certainly to heat our house to a comfortable temperature (and we don't get cold weather here) costs over £150 a month. Consequently we do without for much of the winter. An elderly person is likely to need higher temperatures for longer periods, and the costs will be astronomical.
[ 04. January 2014, 08:10: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Changes to VAT on food and other essentials would help a lot - VAT is charged on sanitary protection for instance which is ludicrous given that they're quite clearly essential, and are really expensive. VAT being a flat-rate tax has an enormous impact on poor people - poor people will always pay a bigger proportion of their income, and on things which they have no choice but to buy. It's an inherently unfair tax. It also shows how unfair the 'non-taxpayer' stigma against benefit recipients is - they may not pay income tax but they are certainly taxed in other ways. Students also do not pay income tax, but do not encounter such stigma.
The price of fuel generally is extremely worrying, even for those who can afford it. Given the essential nature of fuel, energy providers need much closer scrutiny and legislation. Just as supermarkets have strict standards by which they must comply as well as farmers and other food suppliers, energy companies need as much scrutiny as those who create energy and energy sources.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
Making it compulsory for landlords to agree to insulation being installed would help. Currently people receiving a range of benefits can get free or subsidised insulation to their rented property but they need the permission of their landlord. Making it illegal to withhold that permission without good cause would help a lot.
I also think better regulation of fuel prices would help. There should be an personal energy budget distributed between petrol, gas and electricity. Raise duty on standard prices but offer a substantial discount on the first X kWh. That way if you can't afford a car you are more likely to be able to afford to heat your home. If you drive long distances in a polluting car and have a large house and keep leaving things running then you will pay through the nose.
Those of you supporting those using pre-payment meters may find it helpful to direct them to EBico - they don't have a standing charge and charge all customers the same. It won't help people on coin meters, but card meters it can save a fair amount over some other suppliers.
As for the winter fuel allowance, that might last a month of heating an old house to a suitable temperature for an elderly person. Certainly to heat our house to a comfortable temperature (and we don't get cold weather here) costs over £150 a month. Consequently we do without for much of the winter. An elderly person is likely to need higher temperatures for longer periods, and the costs will be astronomical.
One of my main problems when I was in a hostel was not being able to change energy supplier (and you know, those incredibly annoying energy-guzziling electric heaters!). Obviously that's quite a small proportion of all consumers, but I'm wondering if there are any people in council houses who also can't switch? Not sure if it would also be different in England to in the rest of the UK.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Changes to VAT on food and other essentials would help a lot
Erm...you are obviously oblivious to the fact that there is no VAT on food and no VAT on children's clothing.
Studies show, I believe, that the greatest proportion of a low-income family's money is spent on food and children's clothing - so they are unaffected in this regard.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
One of my main problems when I was in a hostel was not being able to change energy supplier
Having been the assistant manager in a hostel for the homeless I have to ask you: what kind of a hostel were you in where you were responsible for your own heating ills? Every hostel I know abut has a flat charge that is covered by HB and a personal contribution, and covers all living costs within the hostel.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
Even so, Mudfrog, the poor often don't have access to the cheapest and/or most nutritious food. I think I read a study about that a while ago, and there was something in the paper the other day about the lack of access to a free cashpoint for many people.
Whilst it might be conceivable to buy low cost food, if you don't have a car (and other troubles in your life), the expensive local shop might be the only alternative.
I've also met people who say that they have no way to cook food, so have to eat more expensive cooked food (which will have VAT added).
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
Also it isn't just people who are on benefits who experience poverty and problems paying fuel bills, of course. Many people struggle on low pay, many are renting poor quality housing, which is expensive to heat and have to pay for power using card meters.
The idea, which is increasingly thrown around, that there are 'worthy' and 'unworthy' poor people seems to both hide the complexities of individual circumstances and allow others to make sweeping moral judgements upon people based on simple projection of their pseudo-Victorian values.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Changes to VAT on food and other essentials would help a lot
Erm...you are obviously oblivious to the fact that there is no VAT on food and no VAT on children's clothing.
Studies show, I believe, that the greatest proportion of a low-income family's money is spent on food and children's clothing - so they are unaffected in this regard.
Actually not all food has zero VAT - full VAT is charged on food and drink including nuts, dried fruit, fruit juice and squash and cereal bars.
Full VAT is also charged on all vitamins and supplements.
In answer to your question re the hostel I was in, I was in a Stonham hostel specifically for 16-25yos. I had to pay for my own electricity on top of my rent (which was not entirely covered by Housing Benefit). At the time I was on either Income Support or income-based Jobseekers Allowance, around £50 a week (under 25s are paid a lower rate). I spent about £10 a week on electricity for lighting and cooking. I could rarely afford heating.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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