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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Tackling Poverty
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
just to avoid the usual socialist, class-affected diatribe that will result from your using the word banker, I also offer these jobs that take longer to learn than cleaning a toilet...
Surgeon
Medical Doctor
Chemical Engineer
History Teacher
Mechanical Engineer
Biotechnology Engineer
Solocitor
Barrister
Electronic Engineer
Pilot
Software Engineer
Aerospace Engineer
English Teacher
Physics Teacher
Maths Teacher
Still not sure what you're trying to prove here. None of the jobs you've listed can only be done by the children of middle or upper class parents. Working class kids can and do achieve the very highest academic and professional qualifications, if only they have the opportunity.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Still not sure what you're trying to prove here. None of the jobs you've listed can only be done by the children of middle or upper class parents. Working class kids can and do achieve the very highest academic and professional qualifications, if only they have the opportunity.
I know. As I said upthread I was one of them.
But my point is that the secondary education system in the UK today fails most kids by aiming towards an average.
Bad teachers are a huge cause of childrens poor education, not money. The ones who "settle" for the average and don't give a rats that some really bright kids are sat in front of them. They teach to the average and the brightest are held back because the teachers can't be arsed to rise to the challenge of pushing them as far as they can go.
Lack of parental help is also a major factor. If good teachers are willing to go the extra mile for the children, more often than not parents are not bothered. Possible because they never had a good set of teacher to push them. Those parents also "settle" for an average.
I want to see a huge reduction in university courses. Get rid of the - yes I will use the term - Media Studies, and dancec and drama courses that do nothing except teach young adults soft skills in typing up reasonably coherent documents and "communicating" with each other. They can learn those in a short course or two at school.
Focus on properly academic subjects, with a much reduced number of students and give them GRANTS!!! Oh the horror, and from a Tory as well!!
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
May I add: plumber, electrician, millwright, carpenter, heating and air conditioning tech, among others. Most of these require, in Canada, 4-6 years on the job and apprenticeship training and pay better at the start than lawyer or banker. Typically 6 figure salaries here. Unskilled labour paying at this level is oil rig work and mining. The level of motivation required for these is high in terms of physical and cognitive demands.
What I have seen in the past 35 or so years is that there has been an erosion of jobs between the janitorial/low pay/unskilled entry type jobs - in which category I'd also include the service jobs like restaurant and retail clerk - and the skilled trades. The erosion of unionization and legislation which weakens collective bargaining also.
Currently, in my part of Canada (the west) we are in economic boom times, with shortage of workers, low unemployment, etc. There are still poor and unable to work. The community based social services and supports are less than what they once were, even with a booming and expanding economy. The police arrest the mentally and cognitive challenged, and sometimes transport them to jail and other times to tertiary care hospitals, because we don't have the community based care and supports any longer.
Without writing an entire essay, the language that disparages the mixed and well-regulated economy of the affordable welfare state has been dishonest and unfortunate, i.e., terms like "the nanny state". Further, the idea that users shall pay the full costs of services they use, like transit buses, visits to swimming pools, etc has meant public space has become available only to those who have cash in hand. The middle, messy, mixed economy, somewhere between the radical socialist and robber baron capitalist society requires reinstitution. Things were better in the 1970s and late 1960s. What was middle then was liberal social democracy, taxation of windfall profits, moderate levels of gov't involvement and ownership of public services, and high levels of regulations for companies. Somehow the radical right has recast the middle as the left, and extinguished the left. And this has harmed the most disadvantages of us, and given extra to those who have advantages already.
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Bad teachers are a huge cause of childrens poor education, not money. The ones who "settle" for the average and don't give a rats that some really bright kids are sat in front of them. They teach to the average and the brightest are held back because the teachers can't be arsed to rise to the challenge of pushing them as far as they can go.
Have you any evidence for this?
And have you considered that it is the government which you support that created league tables that encourage some teachers to do this?
Have you every tried teaching yourself?
Are you prepared to pay teachers more for the long hours they do and keep the government from interfering in their work and changing the goalposts every year, often twice in a year as with English GCSEs?
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Still not sure what you're trying to prove here. None of the jobs you've listed can only be done by the children of middle or upper class parents. Working class kids can and do achieve the very highest academic and professional qualifications, if only they have the opportunity.
I know. As I said upthread I was one of them.
But my point is that the secondary education system in the UK today fails most kids by aiming towards an average.
[citation needed] because my kids' GCSE target grades, set by their teachers, are, apart from a B in Spanish, all As and A*s. That's not 'aiming towards an average'.
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
Still not sure what you're trying to prove here. None of the jobs you've listed can only be done by the children of middle or upper class parents. Working class kids can and do achieve the very highest academic and professional qualifications, if only they have the opportunity.
I know. As I said upthread I was one of them.
But my point is that the secondary education system in the UK today fails most kids by aiming towards an average.
[citation needed] because my kids' GCSE target grades, set by their teachers, are, apart from a B in Spanish, all As and A*s. That's not 'aiming towards an average'.
Yes, so are mine. Well my eldest. She's predicted A's and A*'s as well, but as I keep saying our individual circumstances can't be projected accross an entire countries children.
And if all kids in the entire secondary education sector are being predicted to get A's and A*'s then we need to re-asses the grade structure, because only a few kids are genuinely that bright. I have two kids in secondary education, at either ends of the age range and I know many of the kids in their school and believe me, most of them are NOT predicted, nor ever will be predicted, to get all A's and A*'s.
Leo, I don't need to show evidence (do you think I'm some kind of proper debator or something?).
It's all around! |Children who needed to be taught plumbing, bricklaying and other trades were instead pushed into useless university courses that just loaded them with debt.
It is changing I agree, slowly, but it is changing.
Oh, and so it's only Media Studies graduates that can't be manipulated eh? Other graduates are manipulated easily eh?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Yes, so are mine. Well my eldest. She's predicted A's and A*'s as well, but as I keep saying our individual circumstances can't be projected accross an entire countries children.
And if all kids in the entire secondary education sector are being predicted to get A's and A*'s then we need to re-asses the grade structure, because only a few kids are genuinely that bright.
Do you actually understand the mathematical definition of 'average', or do you need to go away and look it up?
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I'm a bit puzzled, deano. If your experience and the experience of others is that bright kids get set high targets, where are you getting the information that teachers are only aiming for average results? Is it possible that you have been manipulated by the media? Should you have done a media studies degree?
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
I went to two grammar schools in the late sixties/mid seventies and they both had some bloody awful, lazy teachers. I'm sure those teaching me in the first and second forms especially had used the same texts in the same dry way since they became teachers 30 years before.
If I have achieved anything I would attribute it to the support of my wife and attitude, which beats aptitude and qualifications any day.
[ 08. January 2014, 18:03: Message edited by: Sioni Sais ]
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
deano: quote:
Get rid of the - yes I will use the term - Media Studies...
Media Studies does teach critical thinking. I can see why the Powers that Be disapprove.
I must admit, I also disapprove of Media Studies - but mainly because there are other degree courses that teach critical thinking along with other useful things, such as foreign languages (most foreign language degrees require you to study the literature of the language and learn how to do literary criticism). And I'd rather have students studying subjects they are passionately interested in than going through the motions in a subject that they picked just because that course has 100% graduate employment.
I'm pleased to see you approve of academic subjects, though. A lot of people think that degrees in English and History are useless...
[ 08. January 2014, 18:25: Message edited by: Jane R ]
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I went to two grammar schools in the late sixties/mid seventies and they both had some bloody awful, lazy teachers.
My experience too. Except it was one grammar school in the 50s and I would say 'most', rather than some, lazy teachers.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
My nephew did his degree in something that is probably under the heading of Media Studies, and is now working most of the time (freelance) in films - something to do with the sets. Only small stuff yet, mostly uncredited. You may have heard from the Bafta news items how important the film industry now is in this country.
Media Studies isn't meaningless - his university was spoken of as having provided many of the workers on LOTR, I recall. (For a given value of meaningless, of course.)
Ah, I see this fails under the criterion of being a course with 100% employment - but he is keen and enthusiastic.
[ 08. January 2014, 20:26: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I went to two grammar schools in the late sixties/mid seventies and they both had some bloody awful, lazy teachers.
My experience too. Except it was one grammar school in the 50s and I would say 'most', rather than some, lazy teachers.
Same for me (late sixties, mid seventies). I did well in the subjects that had more engaging teachers.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Penny S: quote:
Ah, I see this fails under the criterion of being a course with 100% employment - but he is keen and enthusiastic.
I wasn't entirely clear, was I? What I meant was that I (personally) don't approve of Media Studies and will probably try to steer Daughter towards something else. But I think the most important factor in choosing a degree is enthusiasm for the subject. Enthusiastic people tend to get better results, because they are more highly motivated to study in their spare time. So if Media Studies is the only thing she really wants to do when the time comes (if there are any universities left by then) I won't stand in her way.
Glad to hear that your nephew is doing well, btw.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Okay, I also mentioned dance and drama courses. I notice those have been conveniently overlooked by the defenders of the Media Studies courses.
Do any of our great actors owe their skills to a degree in the subject? Or our dancers?
They may have gone to specialist drama or dance schools but they have always existed and are valuable in turning out the great mass of those people in those arts. Can the same be said for graduates of Leeds University's Dance degree?
Or are those degrees merely cash-cows for universities? Are they merely ways of giving some air of "respectability" for a young person who's first job will be in a call centre?
Wouldn't that young person be better off being taught the soft skills they need in school, up to 18, before setting them off into the call centre? That way they won't be saddled with student loan debts and they's still be working in the same call centre! They will just be three years younger, have more money in their pockets, and will be contributing to their own familiies and society in general.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Leo, I don't need to show evidence (do you think I'm some kind of proper debator or something?). ....Oh, and so it's only Media Studies graduates that can't be manipulated eh? Other graduates are manipulated easily eh?
Certainly not 'proper' but you keep making right wing assertions as if they are self-evident.
And you haven't said how we can counter current indoctrination by media.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by hatless:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Sioni Sais:
I went to two grammar schools in the late sixties/mid seventies and they both had some bloody awful, lazy teachers.
My experience too. Except it was one grammar school in the 50s and I would say 'most', rather than some, lazy teachers.
Same for me (late sixties, mid seventies). I did well in the subjects that had more engaging teachers.
Same for me, in the nineties. Same for my daughter, current time (both grammar schools). Some of the laziness and incompetence beggars belief.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
Posts: 812 | Registered: Jan 2011
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Certainly not 'proper' but you keep making right wing assertions as if they are self-evident.
Well duh! Hello, right-winger here... we are right. All the time! Which bit is confusing you?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And you haven't said how we can counter current indoctrination by media.
That only needs countering if there is "indoctrination by media" and I think your begging the question a little!
I see no evidence for indoctrination. If you view things through Marxist-Leninist eyes then you may well see it. But in that case it doesn't exist, only faulty eyes.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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pydseybare
Shipmate
# 16184
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Posted
I think this idea that there is an easily discernable difference between the 'mickey mouse' degrees and the 'hard' degrees is utter tosh.
A while back a minister made some statement about needlework degrees. It turned out that the few needlework degrees that existed turned out people who were so well educated that they all quickly obtained full time jobs on graduation.
In contrast, I've lost count of people who have done STEM courses who are out of work or who are underemployed in non-graduate work.
Engineering seems to have good prospects for many who complete the courses with good grades, but there is no certainty in many of the traditional science degree subjects, particularly with the closure of big public and private employers.
I overheard someone talking about a degree in social media relations the other day - which sounds like one of these worthless degrees, but on reflection may well be highly employable.
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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Certainly not 'proper' but you keep making right wing assertions as if they are self-evident.
Well duh! Hello, right-winger here... we are right. All the time! Which bit is confusing you?
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
And you haven't said how we can counter current indoctrination by media.
That only needs countering if there is "indoctrination by media" and I think your begging the question a little!
I see no evidence for indoctrination. If you view things through Marxist-Leninist eyes then you may well see it. But in that case it doesn't exist, only faulty eyes.
If you are so conformed to the view of Western capitalism that you are unable to detect anything else, nothing else will make you reassess anything this side of judgement day.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
If you are so conformed to the view of Western capitalism that you are unable to detect anything else, nothing else will make you reassess anything this side of judgement day.
Yes, probably. I grew up at the last half of the cold war, and watched the unions and the Labour Party bring Britain to her knee's until Mrs. Thatcher fixed it. I was bullied in a pit village school because I was clever. I got away from it.
So yes, I am a dyed-in-the-wool, old-fashioned, one-nation, slightly reactonary Tory. I've seen the left up close and personal and don't like it, and don't believe it worked then and nothing about it indicates to me it can work in the future.
Sorry.
I suppose Judgement Day will clarify a few things, but as you say, certainly not before.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
One can easily find just the opposite view of the same time period, so I'm not so sure how valuable an insight that is.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
One can easily find just the opposite view of the same time period, so I'm not so sure how valuable an insight that is.
Only by those who lost - the hard left. Who are dying of old age now.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I was bullied in a pit village school because I was clever.
Really? I reckon this is the real reason ...
quote:
So yes, I am a dyed-in-the-wool, old-fashioned, one-nation, slightly reactonary Tory.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I was bullied in a pit village school because I was clever.
Really? I reckon this is the real reason ...
quote:
So yes, I am a dyed-in-the-wool, old-fashioned, one-nation, slightly reactonary Tory.
I was bullied for being clever before I knew about politics. Clever kids are bullied for being clever. They were then, they are now.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
One can easily find just the opposite view of the same time period, so I'm not so sure how valuable an insight that is.
Only by those who lost - the hard left. Who are dying of old age now.
We could trade silly one-line barbs and feel smug in our wit. But the real problems are rarely solved so easily. Rarely are they one-sided or simple.
And that is the problem. Real solutions are more difficult to find, longer in implementation and often less satisfying in result.
Politicians don't have the fortitude and the public not the patience.
[ 09. January 2014, 15:00: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
deano: quote:
Do any of our great actors owe their skills to a degree in the subject? Or our dancers?
What's that got to do with the price of fish? Many graduates go into jobs that are not directly related to their degree subjects. Refusing to acknowledge the value of a degree in the performing arts because the person who holds it is not guaranteed to become a world-famous actor is like saying an English degree is worthless unless you become a best-selling author.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
Oh, and by the way Deano, I know someone with a degree in maths who has been working as a sales assistant in a shoe shop since he graduated. He's just embarked on a new career... as a yoga teacher. He got a good degree, too.
It would probably have saved him a lot of time and money if he'd studied something like Sport Science at university instead.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
I grew up at the last half of the cold war, and watched the unions and the Labour Party bring Britain to her knee's until Mrs. Thatcher fixed it.
You forgot to finish the sentence: 'fixed it for her rich cronies by blatantly lying to the country and especially the miners.'
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
By 'rich cronies' do you mean the upwardly mobile working and lower middle classes?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
By 'rich cronies' do you mean the upwardly mobile working and lower middle classes?
Of course nowadays in the USA the ability of the working and lower middles classes to be upwardly mobile is virtually gone. But those were happier times and it was Britain, so I'm not sure it applies.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Must ... res.sist ...
Deano doesn't bullied here for being clever.
I was bullied for being clever too. Didn't turn me into Tory Boy or William Hague. But then, neither of them are clever either ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
(Joke guys, joke ...)
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
Deano, almost every bright kid was bullied at school, whether or not it was a pit village (you), a rural school in the heart of the Tory shires (me), or a city comp. Your experience, while unique to you, was not unique.
I'm sure someone will be along to tell us why that happens, but becoming a Tory is not the inevitable outcome. There is hope for you yet...
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
My own experience - I was bullied at a private school. Probably for being odd, and useless at games. My sister, at the same school, provably cleverer than me, was not. (Good at games.) In the state school I then arrived at where I was probably cleverer than the average, I was not bullied. (Still bad at games.) (And, I found out much later, I had "broken" a friendship on arrival.)
And then, as a teacher in a state primary, I knew a number of clever children. Most of them were not bullied. Regardless of games ability. Where there was bullying, it was for other reasons. The one that sticks out was a child who had been enrolled in an organisation that made him feel superior not only to other children but also staff. Most of the clever ones had friends and no problems.
[ 09. January 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
By 'rich cronies' do you mean the upwardly mobile working and lower middle classes?
No. And even if so, does that absolve her from those lies?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
By 'rich cronies' do you mean the upwardly mobile working and lower middle classes?
No. And even if so, does that absolve her from those lies?
I expect Angloid means Dennis and his friends. Margaret married well above herself. She was high-achieving ex-grammar school, while Dennis Thatcher was ex-public school heir to a family business and a millionaire in 1948 (ie, when that meant something). How else could she afford to train as a barrister?
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
I certainly included those of her intimate circle. But I was also implying the 1% of the population who possess 20% of the nation's wealth.
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Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
Maybe those who were bullied in conservative heartlands developed a chip on their shoulder about the right wing, and ran quickly as far left as they could get.
I grew up in a late 70’s and early 80’s pit village and know more about the miners’ strike than most because I lived in that community. I went to school with miner’s kids and played football with miner’s kids. That environment was in a Labour heartland and socialism was lived and breathed there. The old hard-left type. Perhaps because I was bullied in that environment I developed a chip on my shoulder about the left-wing and ran as quickly as I could to get to the right.
Who cares? What matters is that I don’t have any positive experience of socialism and the far left. I’ve never heard of any policies that are feasible from the left. Any that are have been policies of the moderate right that the left managed to get on board with for a while. There are no left-wing politicians who I respect FOR THEIR POLITICS. I do respect some of the old Labour politicians who fought in the war, for their courage. I respect some of them for the sheer brilliance of their minds, but for their politics, I have nothing but contempt.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Doc Tor
Deepest Red
# 9748
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
What matters is that I don’t have any positive experience of socialism and the far left. I’ve never heard of any policies that are feasible from the left.
Apart from free public schooling, the NHS, minimum wages, the Health and Safety at work Act...
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
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Forward the New Republic
Posts: 9131 | From: Ultima Thule | Registered: Jul 2005
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Alwyn
Shipmate
# 4380
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
... I’ve never heard of any policies that are feasible from the left. ...
How do you know that they're not feasible? What would be a fair test for the feasibility of a government policy?
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Post hoc, ergo propter hoc
Posts: 849 | From: UK | Registered: Apr 2003
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
What matters is that I don’t have any positive experience of socialism and the far left. I’ve never heard of any policies that are feasible from the left.
Apart from free public schooling, the NHS, minimum wages, the Health and Safety at work Act...
What did the Roman Empire ever do for us?
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
![[Ultra confused]](graemlins/confused2.gif) That's the first time I've ever seen the Roman Empire lumped in with the left-wing...
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sioni Sais
Shipmate
# 5713
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
That's the first time I've ever seen the Roman Empire lumped in with the left-wing...
Free bread (and circuses) was a start. If there was trouble an emperor would hold a Triumph. The main motive was to discourage warfare rather than to promote welfare, so I suppose Rome was more right-wing, in that it only provided handouts to the extent that it would prevent people from overthrowing the government!
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"He isn't Doctor Who, he's The Doctor"
(Paul Sinha, BBC)
Posts: 24276 | From: Newport, Wales | Registered: Apr 2004
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Doc Tor:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
What matters is that I don’t have any positive experience of socialism and the far left. I’ve never heard of any policies that are feasible from the left.
Apart from free public schooling, the NHS, minimum wages, the Health and Safety at work Act...
Which things the Tories now support. The great victory of the Left is making things that were once radical and lefty mainstream.
We are winning, from a historical perspective.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Arethosemyfeet
Shipmate
# 17047
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Posted
I don't think the tories support them, they just know they're popular so daren't oppose them.
I find it interesting that deano admits that his politics aren't remotely rational - just petty revenge on people who were mean to him at school. Reminds me of those atheists who react against a conservative Christian upbringing by slavishly following Dawkins & co.
[ 10. January 2014, 18:25: Message edited by: Arethosemyfeet ]
Posts: 2933 | From: Hebrides | Registered: Apr 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Arethosemyfeet:
I don't think the tories support them, they just know they're popular so daren't oppose them.
I find it interesting that deano admits that his politics aren't remotely rational - just petty revenge on people who were mean to him at school. Reminds me of those atheists who react against a conservative Christian upbringing by slavishly following Dawkins & co.
... and what analysis would you make of those upthread who said they lived in Tory shires and were bullied or went to private schools and were bullied, and who are now avowed socialists?
Surely you would want to extend your theorem to those?
I mean, why wouldn't you? Oh, yes... they are socialists.
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I was bullied at school for not being clever enough and/or not in the right 'in-group'. I don't think there is anywhere to go in school where forms of bullying do not exist. Kids always pick on other kids that are [perceived to be] different, wherever you are.
Everyone is different. There is bullying in every school. the victim - and sometimes the bullies or the teachers - will attempt to explain or excuse the bullying by stressing how different the victim is. But if another victim had been chosen (or "emerged" the way Tory leaders used to) another difference would have been used to explain it.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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