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Source: (consider it) Thread: A year without god.
EtymologicalEvangelical
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# 15091

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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
If anyone could convince me to return to a more Calvinistic frame of reference, it would be EE ...

I'm afraid I can't make any sense of that comment at all.

Which is hardly surprising, given that no attempt has been made to respond to any of the points I have made!

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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daronmedway
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quote:
Posted by karl:

The Bible exists whether God does or not. There's no way to know that anything it says is God speaking.

Well, you could say that about a letter written to you by your wife if there was some distance between you. But there are certain cadences, cues, clues and registers, word usages, plus intimate insights into - and knowledge of - your character and so on in a letter from a loved one that give reasonably strong evidence of their authorship. You get to know these by personal experience of them. It's similar with God and the bible.

quote:
Life circumstances - humans are great at spotting patterns when none exist.

That's not the same as saying patterns never exist though is it?

quote:
Friends may offer good advice, but why would they be any more in touch with God than I am.

God can speak through the mouth or mule. Sometimes God simply uses people as a means of communication. They don't need to be conscious of it and it doesn't necessarily rest upon the quality of their relationship with him.

quote:
Inner prompting of the Holy Spirit? Any way of telling that from an active imagination.

Yes, weigh it up against scripture, common sense, wise counsel, and life circumstances. Look out for red lights and if nothing obvious stands out as a red light then step out in trust. A bit like crossing the road. You don't need a parent holding your hand to cross the road any more because you're an adult. You know what to do. It's similar with God.

quote:
Common sense unfortunately currently tells me this God business is a bit silly.

Are you entirely sure it's common sense? Or could it be something else?

quote:
None of this is very definitive. You know the clearest thing I ever thought God was saying to me - through friends, "inner prompting", reasoning etc.? That he wanted me to be a primary school teacher. I'm not one. I was wrong. So how do I tell any other daft ideas I get from God telling me something?

Does matter if you were wrong really?

[ 04. January 2014, 15:10: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Gamaliel
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EE, I was teasing you of course. Simply suggesting that the very fact that you are so opposed to it is sufficient in and of itself to tempt me to revise my current repugnance towards aspects of Calvinistic theology ...

I thought it was an obvious joke, but there we are. Subtlety eh?

[Biased]

As for not answering your points. It's not my fight. Daronmedway mentioned something about how he felt he could 'interpret' and make sense something in hindsight concerning what he took to be God's mysterious providence working out in his life in terms of correction and chastening.

At least, that's what I understood him to mean, and so did Beeswax Altar. You immediately started to 'call him' on what you took to be a discrepancy or anomaly between what he'd written and what you take to be his theological position.

I'm not inclined to comment for several reasons.

Firstly, it's none of my business (although that hasn't stopped me putting my oar in before ... [Hot and Hormonal] )

Secondly, I didn't see any anomaly between what he was saying and a Calvinist position. Neither did Beeswax Altar. You did, but that's your prerogative and daronmedway is big enough and ugly enough to look after himself.

Besides, I thought you were introducing a tangent that had little to do with the matter in hand - ie. the wisdom of the course of action outlined in the OP.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Let me just say that for one who actually understands Calvinism and the actual meaning of logic what daronmedway originally said made perfect sense.

So it's an in-group talking amongst itself not giving a fuck if anybody outside that group understands. You can get private boards here. Might be your thing.

quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
You mean if we stop pretending to ourselves we believe in God, then soon we openly won't?

No. Rather stopping talking to God for a year will probably have an analogous impact to stopping talking to your wife for a year.
My wife talks back. I'm far from sure God does. Not the same.
Dingdingdingdingdingding! We have a winner. This is exactly the issue.

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
I suspect that God is going to miss Ryan a lot less than Ryan hopes.

Is this the god who leaves the 99 sheep to find the stray one, or some other god?
Same God, different circumstances.
In what way? Please flesh this out.

You have ignored my other point. Without knowing which God one is meant to believe in, or is talking to, saying "steady the course" could be downright damning, literally.

And what exactly is meant by "making an effort"? Praying to the ceiling without any response, year in and year out, for ten, twenty, thirty years? What's the definition of insanity? This is not the way to encourage behavior, God. Ever hear of "extinction"? If you want someone to stop doing something, ensure that their actions have no appreciable effect.

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pydseybare
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
Without knowing which God one is meant to believe in, or is talking to, saying "steady the course" could be downright damning, literally.

And what exactly is meant by "making an effort"? Praying to the ceiling without any response, year in and year out, for ten, twenty, thirty years? What's the definition of insanity? This is not the way to encourage behavior, God. Ever hear of "extinction"? If you want someone to stop doing something, ensure that their actions have no appreciable effect.

Wasn't it Mother Teresa who was supposed to have persevered in prayer for decades without any response?

I was trying to remember an author which discussed the liturgical centre of being the other day - it was James K.A. Smith, a Calvinist academic.

I'm not sure I have his book on my shelf any more, but if I recall correctly, Desiring the Kingdom suggested that all humans are liturgical at heart and gain meaning from repeated behaviours - so that if you don't do it in church, you'll do it elsewhere (the shopping mall as a religious liturgy was an example he used).

I think it is possible to get meaning from repeated liturgical practice - even if it is bunk and/or you are not 'getting anything' from it. I'm just not sure I want to have my life get its meaning from shopping in a mall, or prayer to a God who isn't listening. Whilst the latter might be objectively better than the former, it still seems hollow to continue with a practice that you don't actually believe in.

But then.. hum, dunno.

--------------------
"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."

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daronmedway
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mousethief,
The parable of the lost sheep is about lostness, not willful avoidance. That's not to say that people do not willfully avoid God. It's just saying that the parable isn't about that.

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Gamaliel
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I say, old chap, even as someone who has sometimes crossed swords with both Beeswax Altar and daronmedway, I find this a trifle unfair ...

quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:

So it's an in-group talking amongst itself not giving a fuck if anybody outside that group understands. You can get private boards here. Might be your thing.


I 'got' what Beeswax Altar was getting at and I'm not in any kind of special 'in-group' - unless you believe that all of Western Christianity constitutes an 'in-group' ...

Your other points seem fair enough to me though.

[Practice your UBB code thread is your friend]

[ 04. January 2014, 20:51: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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Gamaliel
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And daronmedway's reply seems fair enough too. If people are wilfully avoiding God then that doesn't make God at fault, does it?

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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daronmedway
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mousethief,
Making an effort to add virtues to faith so that you aren't unfruitful and unproductive in your knowledge of Christ Jesus.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel
And daronmedway's reply seems fair enough too. If people are wilfully avoiding God then that doesn't make God at fault, does it?

The issue is really painfully simple and straightforward:

If the only way anyone can live righteously is by the grace of God, then it follows that if God wishes us all to live righteous lives, and judges us for failing to do so, then He must extend His grace to ALL people. If He decrees that a particular person should not receive any of His grace, then clearly that person cannot do anything good through no fault of his own. Therefore God is at fault through His decree of moral and spiritual neglect, by deliberately and wilfully permitting a helpless and unsuspecting human being to be in this moral and spiritual condition.

Anyone who seriously and genuinely thinks that God is right to condemn that person for failing to do what he could not possibly do (thanks to the divine decree) is, as far as I am concerned, morally insane. And I mean that in all seriousness.

That is why I totally reject the hyper-Calvinistic doctrine of double predestination, and regard it as utterly satanic.

I'm not going to mince my words, just to "be all things to all men" as you seem to want me to be (and especially considering that I have been dismissed as a heretic anyway!).

--------------------
You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Fool on the hill
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To answer how it would be if an atheist did this, it's suggested all the time. It's always suggested that we (we?) read, congregate, discuss and pray for and about faith. To me, it did seem like "brainwashing". But that's not as harsh as it may sound. People are "brainwashed" into alot of things. I am sure that if I read, congregated, discussed and prayed FOR faith, I probably would find it. The reason being is that I would obviously WANT to believe, therefore I would believe. I've always thought that you can think your way into the bible, as well as think your way out of it. Though, I think it's easier to think your way out. [Biased]

IMO, this guy either wants to not believe to extricate his way out of a way of life he finds unsatisfying and will therefore find reason to not believe or he wants to believe without reason to allow him license to believe even though it goes against reason. So, he will live a life "without God" (so, what, he can control his mind and not pray?), find life no different (as it is for most people, especially in the first world), find that he still wants to believe, or " feels God" still and there he is, free to believe without the dogma that he seems to dislike.

Either way, he sounds like an open minded chap. Pity him??? I admire him. No matter his conclusion.

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Firenze

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It is all very interesting. If you begin to find that the beliefs you have ordered you life by hitherto are making you unhappy, what do you do? If you perceive that you held them because family and background inculcated them, or you cleaved to them as a refuge from family and background - and they no longer reflect the person you are?

I've seen people I know respond variously. One willed himself into a recommitment to a conservative faith and has lived his life in that milieu. Another realised rather too late that his life, career and marriage had been imposed more than chosen and was looking, rather forlornly, for all the sinning he'd missed....

You cannot, ultimately, bear to live a life that feels inauthentic to you: escape is not easy, but remaining is not tolerable.

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
The parable of the lost sheep is about lostness, not willful avoidance. That's not to say that people do not willfully avoid God. It's just saying that the parable isn't about that.

If someone wilfully avoiding God isn't lost, what are they? The lost sheep in the parable is identified as a sinner in need of repentence. Willful avoidance is something to repent of, isn't it? Or is it the unforgiveable sin that God will not allow repentence of? I don't understand your big black line between this sin and all others. This is a sheep who has "strayed." You appear to be saying that some straying sheep are more straying than others, or some types of straying are so strayful that God won't try to get you back. ALL intentional sins of commission are willful avoidance of God; you have to shove God out of your mind in order to commit the sin.

quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Wasn't it Mother Teresa who was supposed to have persevered in prayer for decades without any response?

She did indeed. As do I. But it's a lot to ask of someone, and if someone hears of others with tangible feelings of God's presence, and yet is denied that for decades, it's hardly sensible to excoriate them for throwing in the towel.

quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
I 'got' what Beeswax Altar was getting at and I'm not in any kind of special 'in-group' - unless you believe that all of Western Christianity constitutes an 'in-group' ...

But when EE expressed inability to understand it, BA blew him off with "Whatever." Sure looks to me like he's not interested in making himself understood. Not sure what else he'd have to do to say it louder.

quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
Making an effort to add virtues to faith so that you aren't unfruitful and unproductive in your knowledge of Christ Jesus.

That sounds like works righteousness. You're asking me to work to achieve virtue. How do I do that? What work do I do? Whom should I ask for instructions on this? You? The SA? The Catholics? The Orthodox? What if they disagree? How can I decide between them?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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daronmedway
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Faith in is something given to us by God. Faith is what we add too. Faith is the given. Faith must be the foundation.

Faith is the blank canvas. It provides the background and basis for everything else. The qualities that we are called to add to our faith are like adding paint to that canvas. But we don't supply the paint.

The paints were part of the gift as well, but we have to choose what to paint. We have to choose what we want our life to look like. We paint the picture with the materials that God supplies.

We don’t make an effort at godliness so that God will accept us; we make an effort at godliness because God has already accepted us.

I'm saying we don’t try to paint a beautiful picture with our life to make God love us; we paint a beautiful picture with our life because God loves us.

He has given us everything we need in order to paint a better picture. However, if we don’t try to to paint a better picture we will become ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of Jesus.

[ 05. January 2014, 07:21: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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Marvin the Martian

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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
We don’t make an effort at godliness so that God will accept us; we make an effort at godliness because God has already accepted us.

I'm saying we don’t try to paint a beautiful picture with our life to make God love us; we paint a beautiful picture with our life because God loves us.

He has given us everything we need in order to paint a better picture. However, if we don’t try to to paint a better picture we will become ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of Jesus.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind all that. If God has already accepted me and nothing I do will change that, then why does it matter what I do? Why should I bother even opening the pots of paint if I don't particularly enjoy painting as an activity?

To put it another way, if it's already been decided whether I go to heaven or hell, and if nothing I do can possibly change that, then why should I even bother to be Christian and go to church? It won't change anything. It won't achieve anything. It becomes an utterly pointless activity.

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Hail Gallaxhar

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IngoB

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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
You cannot, ultimately, bear to live a life that feels inauthentic to you: escape is not easy, but remaining is not tolerable.

The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all. This is aided on one hand by the fact that what an "authentic" life would be for oneself is very difficult to determine indeed; and on the other hand by the ready availability of a myriad distractions: booze, sex, TV, money, career, SoF, ... Religion can serve as distraction just as much as a focus of authenticity, and switching or abandoning religion need not have any more significance than following a different football team (a quasi-religious experience for many anyhow).

To actually have a real crisis of authenticity is a major spiritual achievement in my book. To claim that one lives a truly "authentic" life is more or less identical to claiming that one is "enlightened" (in the Buddhist) sense, in my opinion. Reshuffling your life is per se no more an indication of "greater authenticity" than reshuffling the furniture in your living room is of an improved sense of interior decoration. "Meet the new boss, same as the old boss" is the key principle of nearly all human change.

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
It is all very interesting. If you begin to find that the beliefs you have ordered you life by hitherto are making you unhappy, what do you do? If you perceive that you held them because family and background inculcated them, or you cleaved to them as a refuge from family and background - and they no longer reflect the person you are?

I've seen people I know respond variously. One willed himself into a recommitment to a conservative faith and has lived his life in that milieu. Another realised rather too late that his life, career and marriage had been imposed more than chosen and was looking, rather forlornly, for all the sinning he'd missed....

You cannot, ultimately, bear to live a life that feels inauthentic to you: escape is not easy, but remaining is not tolerable.

I am really echoing IngoB, but I would have thought that our culture was largely devoted to the inauthentic life. I mean that there are all kinds of distractions available today, such as consumerism, electronic toys, and so on, which help us to numb ourselves. As Sartre said, we don't want a grocer who dreams, we want a grocer who just plays at being a grocer.

I agree that some people find themselves in a crisis when their own inauthenticity hits them - but they are the lucky ones.

--------------------
I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.

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Firenze

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That would account for the lotus-like glow that follows me everywhere.

I doubt I would cast it in such elevated terms - but I allow that a spiritual/psychological crisis may a precursor or necessary condition.

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Gamaliel
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@Mousethief, sure, so EE didn't understand Beeswax Altar's point. That might say something about each of them or it might say something about neither of them.

I understood the point that Beeswax Altar and Daronmedway were making and that may or may not say something about me.

Either way, it struck me that EE was launching a gratuitous attack on Calvinism where none was warranted. On other occasions I might back him up. I don't hold with double-predestination either.

But that's not the point daronmedway was making on this occasion - any more than the points he subsequently made were advocating 'works righteousness.'

All that said, I can see why EE is miffed with daronmedway overall because he's accused him of heresy before now - of being Pelagian ... which strikes me as the default, nuclear-option button which certain types of Calvinist reach for whenever anyone disagrees with them.

Anyway. All this is a tangent. There are some aspects of what the guy in the OP is doing which make sense - as Fool on The Hill has said - but equally other aspects that could be detrimental or dangerous.

It's not an experiment I'd like to try.

--------------------
Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.

http://philthebard.blogspot.com

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
We don’t make an effort at godliness so that God will accept us; we make an effort at godliness because God has already accepted us.

I'm saying we don’t try to paint a beautiful picture with our life to make God love us; we paint a beautiful picture with our life because God loves us.

He has given us everything we need in order to paint a better picture. However, if we don’t try to to paint a better picture we will become ineffective and unproductive in your knowledge of Jesus.

I'm not entirely sure I understand the reasoning behind all that. If God has already accepted me and nothing I do will change that, then why does it matter what I do? Why should I bother even opening the pots of paint if I don't particularly enjoy painting as an activity?

To put it another way, if it's already been decided whether I go to heaven or hell, and if nothing I do can possibly change that, then why should I even bother to be Christian and go to church? It won't change anything. It won't achieve anything. It becomes an utterly pointless activity.

If you can't be bothered to become a better person for the sheer joy of becoming more like Jesus - to the benefit of yourself and other people - then it's possible that you don't appreciate what it means to be forgiven for your sin and that you have no true appreciation of what God wants you to become. And if that is indeed the case then it's highly unlikely that you've even got so much as toe in heaven's door. Access to heaven's door doesn't depend upon your virtue, but your very desire for virtue rests upon your access to heaven. In other words, if don't desire virtue you're probably not a Christian. In which case you can live like the devil and spend eternity with him too.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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Marvin -

You are absolutely right. Salvation includes sanctification as part of the package (all that "God giving us a new heart" stuff), and therefore whoever is predestined to salvation is also, ipso facto, predestined to perfect sanctification (otherwise salvation does not include sanctification, and is therefore meaningless from a moral point of view. The Bible always presents salvation as having a moral aspect, of course.).

The idea that someone can be predestined to salvation, and then have to make some special effort to choose to do what is right, is a contradiction in terms. The fact that we have no evidence that anyone is predestined to perfect righteousness (in this life), is evidence against predestination to salvation.

Salvation is offered, not forced. It can therefore be refused by those whom God wishes to save. That is the clear message of the Bible, hence Jesus' tears over the rebellion of Jerusalem, for example.

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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daronmedway
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It's not as clear as you pretend,
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EtymologicalEvangelical
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A brand new thread about Calvinism and sanctification.

Perhaps there daronmedway, BA and Gammy might explain where they are coming from...

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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quetzalcoatl
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quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
That would account for the lotus-like glow that follows me everywhere.

I doubt I would cast it in such elevated terms - but I allow that a spiritual/psychological crisis may a precursor or necessary condition.

Yes, I've been told that when I leave the room, a faint aroma of lavender and ambergris remains, to console those left behind.

Well, people in therapy sometimes say that those who have a breakdown are the lucky ones. A bit callous, I suppose, and probably inaccurate - some people can evolve without major trauma. Well, I've heard of them, I've never met one.

I suppose it's a traditional recipe for spiritual progress, isn't it? I suddenly saw through the meretricious falsity of our culture and my own persona, and hoopla, I was there (or here).

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Scarlet

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quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Aristotle seems to suggest that we are what we do. So the way to create an ethic of 'being kind' is to start being kind.

I think it is highly likely that you will become a non-believer if you begin to act like a non-believer.

I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:

At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.

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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
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Firenze

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quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:

I suppose it's a traditional recipe for spiritual progress, isn't it? I suddenly saw through the meretricious falsity of our culture and my own persona, and hoopla, I was there (or here).

I won't hear a word against meretricious falsity, it's what I live for.

If your particular psyche's way of resolving a mismatch is via breakdown, I don't think it gives you - at least in my experience - instant truth-to-selfhood. It just puts you in a place from which you can work on it. Or not, as the case may be. Humankind cannot bear too much reality.

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pydseybare
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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:

At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.

I don't think wealth is an Aristotolian virtue.

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"If you act like an illiterate man, your learning will never stop... Being uneducated, you have no fear of the future."

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
If you can't be bothered to become a better person for the sheer joy of becoming more like Jesus

'Being like Jesus' has always struck me as being pious.

I think Jesus calls us to be 'like' our selves, the selves he created and willed into being but from which we all too frequently fall short.

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Grokesx
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@Ingo
quote:
The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all.
How do you get to have a say on the authenticity of other people's lives? The most usual definition of an authentic life involves being true to one's self in the face of eternal pressures, most often cultural pressures. Many of the people, I suspect, who are "not thinking about it at all" are finding authenticity in loving their partners, bringing up their kids, going out to work doing jobs they quite like despite moaning about them of a Monday morning, having a rich inner life and a myriad of other things that our culture allows us to do, down to having the odd pint and talking shit on the internet.

Others might find such a life shallow and vapid and anything else they can think of to convince themselves of their own superiority, but that says nothing about the authenticity of the other people's lives.

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EtymologicalEvangelical
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quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx
quote:
@Ingo
The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all.

How do you get to have a say on the authenticity of other people's lives? The most usual definition of an authentic life involves being true to one's self in the face of eternal pressures, most often cultural pressures. Many of the people, I suspect, who are "not thinking about it at all" are finding authenticity in loving their partners, bringing up their kids, going out to work doing jobs they quite like despite moaning about them of a Monday morning, having a rich inner life and a myriad of other things that our culture allows us to do, down to having the odd pint and talking shit on the internet.

Others might find such a life shallow and vapid and anything else they can think of to convince themselves of their own superiority, but that says nothing about the authenticity of the other people's lives.

Hate to admit it, but Grokesx has got a point.

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You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis

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Grokesx
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@EE
[Axe murder]

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
Others might find such a life shallow and vapid and anything else they can think of to convince themselves of their own superiority, but that says nothing about the authenticity of the other people's lives.

I have no idea why you think that I expect something glorious or extraordinary - in worldly terms - from "authenticity". I've made a comparison to Buddhist enlightenment, and Buddhist enlightenment has little to do with sophistication, fame, or whatever. And I reject the nasty inference about my supposed motivation.

But we cannot simply call all lives "authentic" just because the people that happen to live them really do live them. That renders the term meaningless. I think it must refer to a kind of "deep" unity between what one truly wants and what one actually does. So that given a real choice to do differently, one would continue doing just what one was doing. And this must go beyond the pressure of circumstance and the force of habit. And indeed also beyond the lack of ability or motivation. "Authenticity" becomes visible really only when it is tested and tried. Who can tell what is genuine in "business as usual"? But when there are internal or external challenges, then we can gauge whether a person "stays true".

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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mousethief

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quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Aristotle seems to suggest that we are what we do. So the way to create an ethic of 'being kind' is to start being kind.

I think it is highly likely that you will become a non-believer if you begin to act like a non-believer.

I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:

At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.

On the other hand, suppose I want to learn to love the poor. So I act like I do. I give money to charities, I work in soup kitchens, I donate time to the food bank passing out grocery bags to people. I thereby get to meet them and spend time with them and maybe hear a story or two, and my compassion is ignited, and before the year is over I have come to really love and cherish the poor as people made in God's image.

You're cherry-picking an absurd example; not all examples of fake-it-till-you-make-it are so absurd.

quote:
Originally posted by leo:
'Being like Jesus' has always struck me as being pious.

What's wrong with being pious?

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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...

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The5thMary
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Every single time I read the title of this post, I start singing, "The year without a Santa Claus!" [Smile]

Some people think God is Santa Claus but Church Lady thought Santa was... SATAN! Anyway, as you were... [Two face]

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God gave me my face but She let me pick my nose.

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hugorune
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quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
If you can't be bothered to become a better person for the sheer joy of becoming more like Jesus

'Being like Jesus' has always struck me as being pious.

I think Jesus calls us to be 'like' our selves, the selves he created and willed into being but from which we all too frequently fall short.

Jesus calls us to sacrifice every part of us which is not of God, and to unite spiritually with Him, through our faith and the sacraments. As our sinful self, we can never be like Him, but only in as much as we can abandon our "self", and when we seek always God's will, than we are walking together.

Impossible as it seems to be, and as crazy as I feel for suggesting it, that's what I believe. Maybe reading Augustine wasn't such a great idea.

[ 06. January 2014, 08:54: Message edited by: hugorune ]

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“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

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Grokesx
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quote:
I have no idea why you think that I expect something glorious or extraordinary - in worldly terms - from "authenticity". I've made a comparison to Buddhist enlightenment, and Buddhist enlightenment has little to do with sophistication, fame, or whatever.
And enlightenment seeking ascetic buddhists don't feel superior to the those trapped in the world of sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth? Give me a break.
quote:
And I reject the nasty inference about my supposed motivation.
Reject away. Actually, I wasn't thinking of you when I wrote that bit, I was thinking in more generic terms. Having said that, when you say stuff like "The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all..." I'd say a feeling superior cap is a pretty snug fit.
quote:
But we cannot simply call all lives "authentic" just because the people that happen to live them really do live them. That renders the term meaningless. I think it must refer to a kind of "deep" unity between what one truly wants and what one actually does.
OK, if we strip out the superfluous junk we get "unity between what one wants and what one does". So, if what one wants is to live an ordinary life in a society that is for the most part pluralistic and allows significant personal freedoms, is that not authentic? It might not be the life you would choose, but that's the whole point of what I'm saying. You, or anybody else, no matter how vast an intellect they may have and however spiritually enlightened they think themselves to be, don't get to tell other people what is an authentic life for them.

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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken

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hugorune
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quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
quote:
I have no idea why you think that I expect something glorious or extraordinary - in worldly terms - from "authenticity". I've made a comparison to Buddhist enlightenment, and Buddhist enlightenment has little to do with sophistication, fame, or whatever.
And enlightenment seeking ascetic buddhists don't feel superior to the those trapped in the world of sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth? Give me a break.
Pride and superiority are those things that are very hard to escape. I feel drawn to theology since I escaped sustained apostasy, that I might have a deeper understanding of how I can continually reject my sinful nature and draw closer to Christ, and not need therapy in the process. Finding assurance and building defences against my faith being shattered for a second time is a part of that, and perhaps maybe being able to help others in their faith when I am more secure in mine and confident on every question. But there is a flicker of doubt, that it might be hubris that motivates me, and even as it is human nature to feel proud of one's achievements, such is surely sinful nonetheless. I should probably just put it down to one of those doubts that get placed in our heads from negative sources - internal or otherwise - and pursue it wholeheartedly nonetheless.

[code]

[ 06. January 2014, 09:10: Message edited by: Eutychus ]

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“A proud man is always looking down on things and people; and, of course, as long as you are looking down, you cannot see something that is above you.”
C.S. Lewis - Mere Christianity

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leo
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
What's wrong with being pious?

I used the term in the sense that many seminarians tend to use it - 'He's a bit pi.'

Head in the clouds, trying to outdo others in the number of rosaries, genuflections etc.

Sort of equates with spiritual pride.

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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
[qb]The parable of the lost sheep is about lostness, not willful avoidance. That's not to say that people do not willfully avoid God. It's just saying that the parable isn't about that.

If someone wilfully avoiding God isn't lost, what are they? The lost sheep in the parable is identified as a sinner in need of repentence. Willful avoidance is something to repent of, isn't it? Or is it the unforgiveable sin that God will not allow repentence of? I don't understand your big black line between this sin and all others. This is a sheep who has "strayed." You appear to be saying that some straying sheep are more straying than others, or some types of straying are so strayful that God won't try to get you back. ALL intentional sins of commission are willful avoidance of God; you have to shove God out of your mind in order to commit the sin.
I think I'm probably making a distinction that the writer to the Hebrews apparently identifies. No doubt EE will be along to tell me that I'm not allowed to quote these verses (because they don't chime with the P of TULIP). Which they don't.
quote:
4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, and have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 and then have fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, since they are crucifying once again the Son of God to their own harm and holding him up to contempt. Hebrews 6:4-6

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
# 8700

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quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
And enlightenment seeking ascetic buddhists don't feel superior to the those trapped in the world of sensual pleasures and the accumulation of material wealth? Give me a break.

Theoretically speaking, enlightenment-seeking Buddhists may feel superior, but enlightened ones cannot, as that would be in itself a worldly attachment compromising their enlightenment. Whether that makes sense practically speaking is a question of little relevance to me now, since I'm not a Buddhist any more. My point was not that I believe in Buddhist teaching, my point was that my reference to Buddhist enlightenment fully intended the usual association most people have there with a humble / ordinary lifestyle.

quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
Having said that, when you say stuff like "The vast majority of mankind lives "inauthentic" lives. And this can be borne with consummate ease, mostly by simply not thinking about it at all..." I'd say a feeling superior cap is a pretty snug fit.

If you were not intentionally insulting before, then you certainly are so now - since you attribute to me directly what I have rejected. Anyway, you seem to think that I claim an "authentic" life for myself. I do not. One of the many things orthodox Christianity gets right is to take the pressure off achieving anything spiritually special yourself. It is anti-Pelagian. I do not have to be at one with myself and my life. I simply have to follow Christ and bear my crosses, including any crosses arising from unresolved inauthenticity.

quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
So, if what one wants is to live an ordinary life in a society that is for the most part pluralistic and allows significant personal freedoms, is that not authentic?

Obviously that could be authentic. However, I do not think that most people living such lives are authentic in the sense that I have detailed. For example, upon being offered twenty million dollars, how many of them would say "thanks, but no, thanks, I'd rather continue with my ordinary life"?

quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
It might not be the life you would choose, but that's the whole point of what I'm saying. You, or anybody else, no matter how vast an intellect they may have and however spiritually enlightened they think themselves to be, don't get to tell other people what is an authentic life for them.

First, I and anybody else can have a fair go at telling anybody else whether they lead an authentic life, given enough relevant personal information. That's so because I have given an objective and universal definition of what that would entail. Second, authentic in my sense is not a synonym for "(morally) good". Someone could be a highly authentic child rapist, for example. Third, I do get to tell other people what is a (morally) good life for them. They may not listen to me, and if I am any smart then I will pick an appropriate time and mode for telling them. But morals are universal and social by design, and there is no such thing as "my moral right" and "your moral right", ever. (Where people speak that way they actually mean that certain things do not really matter to them, and hence that they can live with whatever one prefers.)

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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anteater

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IngoB: Referring to an earlier post:
quote:
In short, we have a Divine guarantee that every proper experiment will be successful, however, we are much less sure what is proper in this context. There are major issues of experimental design here. Or even worse, uncertainty about the very experimental questions we are trying to ask.
Of course Catholics have always been more optimistic about how far you can go with reason that Protestants. But I'm not sure that you can take the saying "Seek and you shall find" as referring to an experiment in the sense that this is normally understood.

If of course you are limited to proposing:
quote:
"well here, try that, it should work with a bit of luck."
then I may be just arguing about words. I don't dispute that some behaviours are more likely to lead to faith that others. But designing an experiment? You can always try, and I'd be interested in the result.

The one who spoke of seeking and finding also said "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test" as you certainly don't need me to remind you.

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Schnuffle schnuffle.

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Eutychus
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quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
No doubt EE will be along to tell me that I'm not allowed to quote these verses

hosting/

Predicting that other posters will say and/or do bad things constitutes a personal attack. And could be construed as flamebaiting (now where have I heard that accusation recently?).

Stop it.

/hosting

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Grokesx
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quote:
If you were not intentionally insulting before, then you certainly are so now - since you attribute to me directly what I have rejected.
Sorry. Struck me as a tad superior in tone. And if that sounds like a notpology, I suppose it is.
quote:
First, I and anybody else can have a fair go at telling anybody else whether they lead an authentic life, given enough relevant personal information.
That's the crux of my beef. You dismiss the lives of "vast majority of humankind" as inauthentic on the strength of no personal information whatsoever. I'm assuming you aren't omniscient, so that would suggest to me you think you have a generic handle on what the vast majority of people "deeply" want and a good idea of what they jolly well should want.

The rest of the stuff about morality is irrelevant to this discussion.

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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken

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IngoB

Sentire cum Ecclesia
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quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
I don't dispute that some behaviours are more likely to lead to faith that others. But designing an experiment? You can always try, and I'd be interested in the result. The one who spoke of seeking and finding also said "you shall not put the Lord your God to the test" as you certainly don't need me to remind you.

One does not put the Lord to the test by seeking Him out, one puts Him to the test by demanding a specific extraordinary performance. I do not assume that I can perform a "physical experiment", some kind of empirical data gathering, that would determine the existence of God. But experimentation surely has a wider sense than that. For example, somebody "experimenting with drugs" is not commonly assumed to be conducting a double blind pharmaceutical study. I think God quite literally has promised that he can be discovered by all with means available to them. And I do think that we often are too timid in teaching systematic ways for improving one's chances to encounter God. For example, if a bunch of atheists do not find God in spite of putting in some actual effort in praying to Him, then we should ask what they were actually doing and whether they could have been taught some other modes of prayer that would have led to a better success rate. Again, I do think this is more similar to medicine or perhaps even psychology than physics, so I would not expect anywhere close to 100% efficacy. But I think one can actually say more there than leaving it up to pure chance.

quote:
Originally posted by Grokesx:
That's the crux of my beef. You dismiss the lives of "vast majority of humankind" as inauthentic on the strength of no personal information whatsoever. I'm assuming you aren't omniscient, so that would suggest to me you think you have a generic handle on what the vast majority of people "deeply" want and a good idea of what they jolly well should want.

OK then, you can have this beef (after we have successfully dealt with the beef of "superiority" which you had been pushing so far). I am sufficiently confident from my observations of humanity that most people are not truly content with the lives they lead. But it is too difficult and tedious to argue this, really. Is playing the lottery a sign of being unhappy with one's present life, or itself part of a life one is happy with? Is the preoccupation of much of literature and film with various modes of human dissatisfaction an accurate reflection of reality, or just a sign that artists are exceptionally maladjusted? Endless boring exchanges with no resolution in sight can be had down that route. So I will simply maintain this as an unsupported assertion which you can take or leave, being rather sure that leaving it will be your loss...

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They’ll have me whipp’d for speaking true; thou’lt have me whipp’d for lying; and sometimes I am whipp’d for holding my peace. - The Fool in King Lear

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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081

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quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.

Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?

In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.

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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy

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Grokesx
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quote:
being rather sure that leaving it will be your loss...
I'll find a way to carry on somehow.

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For every complex problem there is an answer that is clear, simple, and wrong. H. L. Mencken

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daronmedway
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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by daronmedway:
No doubt EE will be along to tell me that I'm not allowed to quote these verses

hosting/

Predicting that other posters will say and/or do bad things constitutes a personal attack. And could be construed as flamebaiting (now where have I heard that accusation recently?).

Stop it.

/hosting

Fair point. My bad. Sorry, EE.

[ 06. January 2014, 21:37: Message edited by: daronmedway ]

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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967

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quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.

Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?

In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
To be fair, why would someone hired to offer Christian leadership expect to be paid while they publicly try out atheism?

No one could accuse this man of living an unexamined life, which is a good thing. But I think he'd do better in academia than in the church. Maybe when his book is published he'll find that such possibilities present themselves to him. Or he might pursue a career as an independent writer.

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Trudy Scrumptious

BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647

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I did make the point on his FB page that in the general academic world, as opposed to the world of conservative Christian colleges and universities, atheism or at least agnosticism would more the norm than the exception, even among those hired to teach religious studies.

If you ask "Who's more marginalized, religious people or atheists?" it's a completely polarizing question because it depends entirely on what environment you live and work in. Obviously if you've lived as Ryan Bell has, surrounded by religious people in religious institutions, pursuing atheism is going make you pretty marginalized -- and possibly jobless. But there are certainly many working and social environments were admitting that you really believe in God and the Bible and all that stuff will make you the odd one out, and subject to a certain amount of ridicule.

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Books and things.

I lied. There are no things. Just books.

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George Spigot

Outcast
# 253

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Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger

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C.S. Lewis's Head is just a tool for the Devil. (And you can quote me on that.) ~
Philip Purser Hallard
http://www.thoughtplay.com/infinitarian/gbsfatb.html

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