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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: A year without god.
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Paul.
Shipmate
# 37
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Karl: Liberal Backslider:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
Contender for Worst Reason to Believe.
The comment thread on that was pretty funny. Arguing over what constitutes an Ad Hominem. Someone should invite them over to the Ship, they'd fit right in. ![[Devil]](graemlins/devil.gif)
Posts: 3689 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2004
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
Interestingly follow up by another Christian blogger
There's something missing in that blog post.
Claiming to believe in God just because lots of other people do is going to be highly unimpressive to most western readers, especially atheist ones. It suggests cravenness, a lack of individuality and self-determination.
The author mentions the faith of much of struggling humanity, but I was waiting for him to focus on the role of faith in creating a global connections. In a world where there's no scientific proof one way or the other, to believe in God is to stand in solidarity with poor, oppressed and underprivileged believers the world over, and throughout time. This has nothing to do with safety in numbers, but with the principled position of the wealthy western church being alongside people who are struggling globally, and also receiving from their gift of faith.
I do wonder if Ryan Bell is likely to consider these issues in his year of living without God. The Seventh Day Adventist Church that he retains connections with has been deeply challenged by issues to do with race, and there are some people whose atheism has been influenced by racial attitudes in churches. Reflecting on this might lift Bell's book out of the ordinary.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
IMO this is really an argument against the laity-clergy divide, not an argument as to why Christians should be more willing to hire atheists as clergy.
Since few of us want to remove this divide, we'll just have to accept that some clergy will be 'closeted' atheists. Maybe for some Christians this won't matter because it's the priestly status that's important, not the particular theological inclinations of their clergy. Others are happy to worship with clergy who've openly drifted in a Christian-atheist direction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaas_Hendrikse
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
But the same thing would happen if there were no clergy at all and everyone was 'laity' in the terms you're using.
It would simply work out in a different way.
Some sacramentalist types would argue that this is precisely why we need clergy and a liturgy etc ... because irrespective how apostate your clergyperson might be, at least the liturgy and structure is there to keep you on track ...
I'm not advocating that myself, by the way, but it has a kind of logic to it.
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Zach82
Shipmate
# 3208
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Posted
quote:
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
I suppose secretly atheist clergy exist, but lots of them? Do you have any idea what you have to go through to get into the ordained ministry of most mainline churches? I really have a hard time believing that wavering faith would go through that sort of thing.
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Don't give up yet, no, don't ever quit/ There's always a chance of a critical hit. Ghost Mice
Posts: 9148 | From: Boston, MA | Registered: Aug 2002
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Zach82: Do you have any idea what you have to go through to get into the ordained ministry of most mainline churches? I really have a hard time believing that wavering faith would go through that sort of thing.
I understood that the best way to turn solid faith into wavering faith is to send someone to Theology school ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
But the same thing would happen if there were no clergy at all and everyone was 'laity' in the terms you're using.
It would simply work out in a different way.
Some sacramentalist types would argue that this is precisely why we need clergy and a liturgy etc ... because irrespective how apostate your clergyperson might be, at least the liturgy and structure is there to keep you on track ...
I'm not advocating that myself, by the way, but it has a kind of logic to it.
Without clergy at all there would be no special prestige in the status of minister, and no financial benefit to be gained from entering or staying in the role without faith. Every working individual in the church would have a secular job; but I hear that ex-clergy can find it difficult to cope financially, especially if they've never worked or trained at anything else.
Yes, there is indeed a certain logic to the sacramental position, especially in denominations like the RCC that are overwhelmingly sacramental. I can't see much logic in a SDA pastor wanting to be employed by a church whose teachings in various areas he increasingly disapproves of.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Erroneous Monk
Shipmate
# 10858
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Posted
When this bloke gets to the end of his life and looks back along the beach, he's only going to see one set of footprints in the sand for this year...
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And I shot a man in Tesco, just to watch him die.
Posts: 2950 | From: I cannot tell you, for you are not a friar | Registered: Jan 2006
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Late to the party here, but I happen to know Ryan Bell. I thought I'd share a little of what I know of his journey.
He did not start this "year" out with the intent to become a huge famous person. He actually posted it as a sort of idea, and was shocked at the response, both good and bad, from all over. It is, of course, a great thing, but it was not really done to make him into some superstar.
I think he is sincere, and serious as a heart attack, and is seriously trying to figure this out as he goes along. It is not easy, especially given the firings and such.
For what its worth.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
Gwai
Mad Geo's comments make me think that Ryan was a bit naïve. It's not as though the church wasn't aware of some of the radical (to them) ideas Ryan had; the OP's link suggests that his superiors had tried to be accommodating to a considerable extent. I imagine that Ryan's intelligence, skills and youthful passion were attractive to the church and no one would have wanted to loose him. But the SDA church isn't a liberal denomination, and there must be limits....
I don't know a great deal about the SDAs, but half of my family are committed members, many of whom live in the USA. It's hard to believe that none of my intelligent cousins have reflected on any of the issues he raises, but I don't think they'd appreciate his approach.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
One would think naivety, slightly. But then after talking to him, I think 1) He honestly didn't expect this to go viral, which is kinda understandable, and 2) He probably thought he would have some academic-freedom coverage.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Good to see you back, Madge! ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One would think naivety, slightly. But then after talking to him, I think 1) He honestly didn't expect this to go viral, which is kinda understandable, and 2) He probably thought he would have some academic-freedom coverage.
Well, you've talked to him in person while I've only talked to him online, but I do think there's some wide-eyed naievete in his response, given that he writes for Huffington Post on Religion -- it's not as if he's someone with a quiet little blog that gets a couple dozen visitors now and then.
He says that his dismissal from Hollywood SDA church last spring took him by surprise too, which seems naive to me as well. I'd been following his career with interest for a couple of years thinking, "How long can he keep on getting away with this before he's sacked?"
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
"There must be limits"
Hmmm. No, there mustn't, when it comes to academic discussion, in my opinion. But then, I distance myself from my former church, because the SDA overchurch IS a bunch of assholes. But I digress.
I want to add, I do not think he is/was "naive". I think he really didn't think this was going to draw this much attention. Fortunately, I think it will work out for him, as he is getting donations from atheists to survive.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Eutychus, thank you.
Trudy, Well, its hard to say where "Wide eyed" naivety begins, and simply figuring one doesn't hold that big of a bully pulpit, and then being shockingly surprised, when one discovers a giant audience.
On the other hand, Oh to have such problems as a writer.
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Ah, my all time favourite Ship's geologist shows his mettle! Welcome back from me too.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by mousethief:
quote:
Originally posted by Scarlet:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Aristotle seems to suggest that we are what we do. So the way to create an ethic of 'being kind' is to start being kind.
I think it is highly likely that you will become a non-believer if you begin to act like a non-believer.
I don't think so. This reminds me of the premise of "Fake It Til You Make It". I act rich; I recite phrases of affirmation of moneyful bounty in front of my mirror; I paste pictures of luxury cars on my refrigerator; I visit Open Houses of lavish mansions:
At the end of the year I am still dirt poor; I live in a frigid apartment and I cannot afford to have a gash in my hand stitched at a doctor's.
On the other hand, suppose I want to learn to love the poor. So I act like I do. I give money to charities, I work in soup kitchens, I donate time to the food bank passing out grocery bags to people. I thereby get to meet them and spend time with them and maybe hear a story or two, and my compassion is ignited, and before the year is over I have come to really love and cherish the poor as people made in God's image.
You're cherry-picking an absurd example; not all examples of fake-it-till-you-make-it are so absurd.
Okay. I admit I am jaded in this respect.
You have chosen a much more active example whereas mine is passive and requires no engagement with others, no actual work and therefore no real change. "Being" requires effort.
This accurately explains why I cannot become a Christian...
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
Posts: 4769 | Registered: Nov 2001
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
"There must be limits"
Hmmm. No, there mustn't, when it comes to academic discussion, in my opinion. But then, I distance myself from my former church, because the SDA overchurch IS a bunch of assholes. But I digress.
Whoa!! That's a bit heavy! Still, if that's what you really think then you must be glad that Bell is moving further away from the '***holes'.
I've looked again at the link but can't tell exactly how Bell was employed by the church before being asked to resign. If he'd just been in an ivory tower somewhere undertaking 'academic discussion' and writing scholarly books then the church leadership might have tolerated his unorthodox ideas for longer. But doing his work in the public square, which he seemed to be doing, was something a bit different. Was he being paid to speak for himself or to promote the work and beliefs of the SDAs?
Liberal ideas frequently enter the bloodstream of the mainstream churches via clergy who've been trained by liberal theologians, but it seems as though Bell became somewhat impatient with this slow approach. Or maybe things just work differently in the SDA church.
[ 08. January 2014, 23:06: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Ryan was the pastor of an SDA congregation (Hollywood Adventist church) until March 2013 when he was asked to resign from that position (though he still holds his SDA ministerial credentials).
He also held two teaching posts, which I think he may have been doing part-time while pastoring and perhaps full-time after losing his pastoral position. These positions were as contract instructors with two different Christian institutions of higher learning: Azusa Pacific University and Fuller Theological Seminary. Neither is affiliated with the Seventh-day Adventist church; both are conservative Christian universities (I don't know if they are affiliated with any particular denomination but they are definitely not SDA). In both cases the college chose not to renew Ryan's contract after he spoke publicly about his exploration of atheism.
Finally, he had another part-time gig as a consultant working with an SDA church (not his former congregation but another one) on a community outreach program. He was asked to leave this position.
So one way and another he has lost four jobs, two affiliated with the SDA church and two with other Christian institutions, though "fired" may not be the exact right word for a contractual instructor not having his contract renewed, as he was never an employee of either of those institutions.
I don't know if that makes the situation any clearer or not. As I said from the outset here I do admire Ryan and much of what he does, but I think he has been a bit disingenuous if he didn't realize that the paths he has pursued and the public way he has spoken about them would end up severing his employment relationship with some fairly conservative Christian institutions.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Trudy laid it out well. My beef isn't with the latest church let him go (that one is fairly self evident). Although his early termination was dubious, again, in my opinion. It was his academic jobs not renewing him, for clearly considering something. THAT is the academic speech that irritates me.
I want to be clear, my beef is more with the SDA OVERCHURCH. The local denominations can be very decent places, all in all. They vary a lot. Individuals vary more, of course. The assholes seem to be concentrated in the SDA church administration.
And it's good to see you as well Barnabas.
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
But again, to be clear, Mad Geo, your beef is with the two institutions that did not renew his teaching contract, and your beef is with the SDA administration, but the two institutions in which he was teaching were not SDA institutions. The expectation that faculty should toe the party line in terms of signing personal belief statements, etc., is certainly present in SDA institutions but also in most other conservative/evangelical Christian institutions, and many organizations face the resulting accusation that they're not really allowing their faculty academic freedom.
Also, to put it in context, let's remember that out here in the SDA hinterlands where I live, conservatives point to the Southern California Conference as evidence that the church is going to hell in a handbasket because of their extreme liberalism -- and this is the same conference that felt they could no longer have Ryan as a pastor (this was before the atheism thing, of course). So even as a pastor he was eventually considered too liberal for what may be the most liberal conference in the North American church.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
quote:
Originally posted by George Spigot:
A year without God.
Interesting experiment. Any thoughts on what the outcome may be?
In the case of the guy in the OP, unemployment, apparently. Sounds dire.
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
IMO this is really an argument against the laity-clergy divide, not an argument as to why Christians should be more willing to hire atheists as clergy.
Since few of us want to remove this divide, we'll just have to accept that some clergy will be 'closeted' atheists. Maybe for some Christians this won't matter because it's the priestly status that's important, not the particular theological inclinations of their clergy. Others are happy to worship with clergy who've openly drifted in a Christian-atheist direction:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaas_Hendrikse
It's not an argument for or against anything, just a statement of fact. There are closeted atheist clergy, and it is immensely difficult and damaging for such a person to come out. I can't help it if you choose to interpret it as an argument in some direction, but it's just the way it is.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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The Great Gumby
Ship's Brain Surgeon
# 10989
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Zach82:
quote:
Yep. This is why there are a lot of closeted atheist clergy, and why the Clergy Project was set up. If you think it would be bad to lose your faith, imagine what it would be like to lose your livelihood (and possibly your home) at the same time.
I suppose secretly atheist clergy exist, but lots of them? Do you have any idea what you have to go through to get into the ordained ministry of most mainline churches? I really have a hard time believing that wavering faith would go through that sort of thing.
You make a lot of assumptions here. Most obviously, you assume that loss of faith is necessarily preceded by wavering (define "wavering" in such a way that this is a meaningful statement), and that such wavering would be obvious at the time. You do realise that ordained ministry can last quite a long time, and that people change over the course of their lives?
There was a time when I could easily imagine myself in some form of full-time Christian ministry, and pursued my beliefs with a corresponding fervour. I was lucky - within a few years, my faith was a shell, and a little later it was gone completely. In a parallel universe, it could have been me trapped like that.
And yes, lots of them. The Clergy Project has helped a surprising number to leave the ministry (or at least, it surprised me at first), and that's just the tip of the iceberg, the ones who have found the cognitive dissonance so great that they have to escape, no matter what the risk or personal cost. It's a pretty secretive project, for obvious reasons, but anecdotally, yes, there are more closeted atheist clergy than you'd think, finding various ways to live a lie.
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The first principle is that you must not fool yourself, and you are the easiest person to fool. - Richard Feynman
A letter to my son about death
Posts: 5382 | From: Home for shot clergy spouses | Registered: Feb 2006
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Trudy.
I am actually privy to some of the inner workings of the local SDA conference here. It may LOOK liberal to outsiders, but BELIEVE me, the people in charge are FAR from liberal.
That this conference has made progress (liberally) is certain. But that doesn't mean that everyone in charge is liberal, nor will not lop heads, if the GC calls and says "Get rid of that guy".
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by The Great Gumby:
There are closeted atheist clergy, and it is immensely difficult and damaging for such a person to come out. I can't help it if you choose to interpret it as an argument in some direction, but it's just the way it is.
Yes, that's the way it is. But I'm not sure what you want Christians to about it.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One would think naivety, slightly. But then after talking to him, I think 1) He honestly didn't expect this to go viral, which is kinda understandable, and 2) He probably thought he would have some academic-freedom coverage.
I'm serving in a similar capacity in one of the institutions that let him go, and honestly, I'm having a hard time figuring out how he could have thought that. When we sign our contract we sign the statement of faith at the same time-- they could not be more clear that this is part of our institutional identity. There have been numerous high-level discussions both within the institution and within the press over the last few months re: how this has played out with some of our faculty who dissent in one or the other aspect. To have thought that you could continue employment while publicly dissenting from virtually the entire document is hard to fathom. I'm afraid I would have to concur with others here that your friend seems at best naive.
Honestly, it seems like he is trying to have his cake and eat it to. I think what he's doing is an honorable thing, and I pray it leads to some helpful reflections. But to expect to continue the sorts of faith-based employment he enjoyed before this excursion seems, well ridiculous. He wants to live as an atheist, and atheists don't get hired to pastor churches or teach in evangelical seminaries. Sadly for him, his prior employment is incompatible with the path he feels drawn to at this time. That happens some times-- just as m being a taxi driver would be excluded for a blind person, or being a theoretical physicist is excluded for the vast majority of us who don't have that level of intellectual ability. That incompatibility is not the fault of any of the three institutions, nor is it a sign of "lack of academic freedom". Nor is it (as he suggests in his blog) "unwillingness to face the hard questions" (that has not been my experience at either of the two institutions, both of which I've been associated with). It's just the reality of the situation.
I wish him well on his journey, and trust he'll be able to find employment in a secular venue.
[ 09. January 2014, 21:49: Message edited by: cliffdweller ]
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Well said, cliffdweller -- without sharing your inside knowledge of either of these institutions, that is pretty much what I was thinking too.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
One of the things I find so interesting about this public evaluation of someone I have actually talked to in person, is how completely rubbish the evaluation of his motives are. I'm not saying I know him all that well, but I probably know him a damn sight better than most people blathering about his intentions. Not saying anyone here, but just completely in general.
The best anyone can do really is read his blog, and maybe just watch him on tv, and listen to him, instead of assuming all the things people are assuming. But then again, we are dealing with people that force people to sign position statements that are then used to throw you out, and I don't see them as particularly narrow in their rulings. To me, those statements are essentially "Sign this, because we want the appearance of academic freedom, but in reality, we want to control your asses, and have any excuse to fire you, lest you force us to change and allow women to speak, or gays to have equal rights or whatever." "Institutional identity" is a fancy way to say "Shut the hell up, or we'll fire you for being different, and having the gall to speak it."
One of the many things I find galling about some forms of Christianity is their unabashed Judgementalism, and Adventism is particularly rife with it. They are not alone, of course. It is one of the singular most appalling things Christians can do, and they not only do it, they LOVE it. They write it into their orgnizations, even worse than many businesses, frankly, as businesses don't always get to persecute you for thought-crime.
I seriously digress.
Anyway. Suffice it to say, most people that are psychoanalyzing him based on a few blog posts, probably have other problems. And again, I'm not saying anyone here. It would be funny, except there's a real human at the tied to the stake with the villagers carrying torches. LOL
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One of the things I find so interesting about this public evaluation of someone I have actually talked to in person, is how completely rubbish the evaluation of his motives are. I'm not saying I know him all that well, but I probably know him a damn sight better than most people blathering about his intentions. Not saying anyone here, but just completely in general.
I've found that to be true in a number of cases. Twitter dogpiling seems to be the latest way in which some kind of lynch-mob judgmentalism gets let loose. Or on a different level, a kind of prying curiosity, an assumption that you even know enough to speculate. Lord, how important to take our ignorance seriously. And observe some decent boundaries.
In the general context, there seems to be some wisdom in recognising that the struggle with vocation requires a trustworthy and confidential zone for its proper exploration. In this context, Gumby's link to the Clergy Project and his own honest reflections struck me as very much to the point.
You get analogous situations if you are a long term employee in an organisation which you have enjoyed working for, but which comes under new ownership and ethos. Your career and vocational roots have been planted, your income, place of work, home location have been settled, and now there is alienation. Of course the cause is different, externally imposed rather than internally uncovered. But the wrestling seems pretty much the same.
The choices appear to be the usual stark ones. Persevere, put up with it despite the alienation and the cognitive dissonance (telling phrase in these contexts). Or get out with your sanity intact even if not much else is.
In real life, rather than experimental situations, these dilemmas are hardly helped by gratuitous comments made so often in ignorance. Assumptions make an ass out of you and me? A case for a private zone for a while at least, to sort the head and heart out?
[ 10. January 2014, 08:47: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Trudy Scrumptious
BBE Shieldmaiden
# 5647
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Posted
Mad Geo, I sort of agree with you about the armchair psychoanalyzing of people whose motives we can't really know much about, but surely the flip side of that is that anyone who chooses to pursue their spiritual journey in a very public forum should brace themselves for that kind of analysis? You can stop going to church, stop praying, immerse yourself in atheist books and conversation, without telling anyone except the people you encounter every day in real life. People do it all the time. If you choose to do it in a public forum then there's going to be public discussion of your choices and your motives.
It's like anyone else. You can sing in the shower to your heart's content, but don't try out for American Idol unless you're prepared to face not just the judges but everyone on the internet saying you're fat and you sing badly.
If you put yourself out there in a public forum, you prepare for public response. I'm not sure it's really a torches-and-pitchforks kind of situation. It's not like everyone on the internet found out that Ryan had stopped believing in God and went to his house and dragged him into the public square to pelt him with accusations. I think love, generosity and compassion are the best ways to respond to any fellow human no matter where they are on any personal journey, but realistically not everyone's going to respond that way. The more people you tell, the most nasty people are going to respond.
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Books and things.
I lied. There are no things. Just books.
Posts: 7428 | From: Closer to Paris than I am to Vancouver | Registered: Mar 2004
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Mad Geo
Ship's navel gazer
# 2939
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Posted
Well said Barnabas.
Trudy. Yes, you paint a big bullseye on yourseld if you dare to publicly do anything. I get it. As you know, I am an author, and have had my bad reviews (much to my GREAT amusement). I think Ryan is up to the challenge.
But the part that I am speaking to, in my last post, is really just how absolutely this little exercise of his is demonstrating just how utterly rubbish numerous church organizations, religious academic organizations, and of course, clergy that have commented, and of course "Christian" individuals are (and Adventists in particular).
It's like a giant version of a game show called "JUDGEMENTAL ASSHATS" and its absolutely amazing to see how many want to play, based on little or no information. Hell. Even based on the information they are GIVEN! It would be an awesome sociological study.
I saw one pastor, posting in full public view on Facebook, assume that he was already gone, and then rip into his reputation. I'm like "You do realize he could come out the other side of this and be like "I decided to come back". Wouldn't THAT be a surprise?
Anyway. I could ramble all day on how shitty the psychobabble on this is, but blah blah blah. LOL
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Diax's Rake - "Never believe a thing simply because you want it to be true"
Posts: 11730 | From: People's Republic of SoCal | Registered: Jun 2002
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
I don't think we've been especially harsh about the Ryan Bell on this thread. We were invited to comment on the info in the OP's link, and that's what we've done. Obviously, for more information people can go and read his blog.
Many of us dream of changing our churches or denominations in one way or another, but churches tend to be very slow to change, and Bell's employment in several rather conservative institutions was bound to make his task especially challenging - although I don't want to excuse any nastiness he might have faced on the internet. That's totally unnecessary. But without having read his blog it does sound as if it was time for him to move on.
If he still wants churchy company when his year of atheism is up he might find it easier to be in a more liberal denomination, and to teach at more liberal theological colleges. After all, their raison d'etre is to welcome people who have a questioning spirit. But that's not really what the strict, conservative denominations are for, is it? That's not what brings their people through the doors every Sunday - or Saturday - even if some of those who turn up do happen to be questioners.
[ 10. January 2014, 22:09: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
One of the things I find so interesting about this public evaluation of someone I have actually talked to in person, is how completely rubbish the evaluation of his motives are. I'm not saying I know him all that well, but I probably know him a damn sight better than most people blathering about his intentions. Not saying anyone here, but just completely in general.
Yes. That seems to be an inherent evil of this form of communication, one that no doubt leads to much misrepresentation and harm.
quote:
Originally posted by Mad Geo:
The best anyone can do really is read his blog, and maybe just watch him on tv, and listen to him, instead of assuming all the things people are assuming. But then again, we are dealing with people that force people to sign position statements that are then used to throw you out, and I don't see them as particularly narrow in their rulings. To me, those statements are essentially "Sign this, because we want the appearance of academic freedom, but in reality, we want to control your asses, and have any excuse to fire you, lest you force us to change and allow women to speak, or gays to have equal rights or whatever." "Institutional identity" is a fancy way to say "Shut the hell up, or we'll fire you for being different, and having the gall to speak it."
fwiw, I did read his blog, and again, he strikes me as honorable and well-meaning but also very very unrealistic in his expectations, especially as an adjunct (who can have their contracts removed for pretty much any reason or just cuz of low enrollment-- we are the bottom feeders of academia). I do think you are misrepresenting the nature of faith statements in Christian universities. They are simply a way of identifying who and what we are in relation to all the other options out there. APU's and FTS's statements aren' even particularly narrow or fundamentalist (and apply only to faculty, not students).
As I said, sometimes we find ourselves in a job we're not suited for for one reason or another. It's no one's fault-- not the institution, not your friend. It is just a sad reality of life-- his quite honorable decision to "come out" and live life as an atheist is incompatible with his prior employment. That's why you see so few atheists pastoring churches or teaching in evangelical seminaries. It is regrettable, and obviously makes this path even harder for your friend. Again, I hope and pray he is able to find more appropriate employment in a different venue.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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