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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The prospects for the Ordinariate
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
It seems that the Traditionalist Catholic blogosphere is getting very upset about recent events involving that Franciscan Friars of the Immaculate - story here http://www.enca.com/world-life/pope-crackdown-franciscan-friars-fuels-criticism
They had already been upset at a number of comments by Pope Francis that were seen as insulting to traditionalist Catholics and it seems they fear that this is the start of a move in the Vatican to undermine the Summorum Pontificum.
Now what does all that have to do with the Ordinariate? Simply this, that many of those in the Church hierarchy hostile to the Summorum Pontificum may also be hostile to Anglicanorum Coetibus. Damian Thompson's blog in the Telegraph has often referred to hostility to Summorum Pontificum amongst the RC hierarchy in England but has also referred to the same hierarchy being distinctly unenthusiastic about the Ordinariate. Francis himself expressed rather unenthusiastic sentiments about the Ordinariate when he was still a cardinal.
Does anyone have any thoughts about what this might mean for the prospects of the Ordinariate?
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Augustine the Aleut
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# 1472
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Posted
I would imagine that the short answer is nothing either way. Certainly in Canada the local Latin hierarchs are being helpful and they've had their first sets of priestings and another batch is coming. There was no illusion here about it being a mass movement (most of those received are from the Anglican Catholic Church rather than the ACoC) and Canadian Latins are accustomed to other Catholic jurisdictions and uses-- Winnipeg has three archbishops both Toronto and Montréal have three ordinaries each -- so there's little discomfort with another anomaly.
My guess is that Rome is just keeping an eye on the experiment to see how it works out and, as for Pope Frank, he is looking at bigger issues.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
To this non-Catholic, obscurantist, uber-traditionalist Franciscans sounds inconsistent with what most of us have always thought was supposed to be the Franciscan ethos. I'd have thought any Franciscan claim to be traditionalist would have to be about joy in true poverty and simplicity, i.e. insecurity, living by begging, sandals not shoes, one garment only because the other one has been given away, and mass celebrated with a second hand tin chalice.
I like the phrase "self-absorbed retrogrades who aren't helping the church's mission to evangelise". It's attributed to Pope Francis. Are those his actual words?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I like the phrase "self-absorbed retrogrades who aren't helping the church's mission to evangelise". It's attributed to Pope Francis. Are those his actual words?
His actual words are rather more insulting than that. He has repeatedly called them Pelagians. As you know Pelagianism is a heresy so it is a serious thing to say about a Catholic group. Here is a quote from a speech he made to a private meeting of Latin American Conference of Religious. This has not been confirmed by the Vatican but when questioned about it they pointedly declined to deny it either.
quote:
I share with you two concerns. One is the Pelagian current that there is in the Church at this moment. There are some restorationist groups. I know some, it fell upon me to receive them in Buenos Aires. And one feels as if one goes back 60 years! Before the Council... One feels in 1940... An anecdote, just to illustrate this, it is not to laugh at it, I took it with respect, but it concerns me; when I was elected, I received a letter from one of these groups, and they said: "Your Holiness, we offer you this spiritual treasure: 3,525 rosaries." Why don't they say, 'we pray for you, we ask...', but this thing of counting... And these groups return to practices and to disciplines that I lived through - not you, because you are not old - to disciplines, to things that in that moment took place, but not now, they do not exist today...
http://www.catholicworldreport.com/Blog/2319/report_pope_francis_acknowledges_curia_gay_lobby_expresses_concern_over_pelagian _traditionalists_updated.aspx
Another quote is from a speech he made on July 28 and is public and indeed is published on the Vatican's website
quote:
The Pelagian solution. This basically appears as a form of restorationism. In dealing with the Church’s problems, a purely disciplinary solution is sought, through the restoration of outdated manners and forms which, even on the cultural level, are no longer meaningful. In Latin America it is usually to be found in small groups, in some new religious congregations, in exaggerated tendencies toward doctrinal or disciplinary “safety”. Basically it is static, although it is capable of inversion, in a process of regression. It seeks to “recover” the lost past.
To be accused of adhering to a heresy is something that catholic Traditionalist in particular are likely to find highly insulting and I suspect Francis realised this when he made the comments.
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Enoch
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# 14322
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Posted
Presumably traditional Catholics take what the Pope says more seriously than others do. Presumably they also consider that even when not speaking with authority in the formal sense, what he says is authoritative in a way that doesn't apply to the utterances of the rest of us.
So one would also imagine that if the Pope tells one that one's views and practices have something of the Pelagian about them, rather than feel insulted, the true traditionalist reaction would be 'there must be something in this. I should take seriously what he says and examine myself'.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Tommy1
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# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Presumably traditional Catholics take what the Pope says more seriously than others do. Presumably they also consider that even when not speaking with authority in the formal sense, what he says is authoritative in a way that doesn't apply to the utterances of the rest of us.
So one would also imagine that if the Pope tells one that one's views and practices have something of the Pelagian about them, rather than feel insulted, the true traditionalist reaction would be 'there must be something in this. I should take seriously what he says and examine myself'.
I don't think it always works like that!
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
To this non-Catholic, obscurantist, uber-traditionalist Franciscans sounds inconsistent with what most of us have always thought was supposed to be the Franciscan ethos. I'd have thought any Franciscan claim to be traditionalist would have to be about joy in true poverty and simplicity, i.e. insecurity, living by begging, sandals not shoes, one garment only because the other one has been given away, and mass celebrated with a second hand tin chalice.
I like the phrase "self-absorbed retrogrades who aren't helping the church's mission to evangelise". It's attributed to Pope Francis. Are those his actual words?
I'll leave aside the fundamental misconceptions in this post and just address the main mistake. The FFI are not Traditionalists. They use both forms of the Roman Rite. The current debacle has to do with a minority of troublemakers within the order not liking the fact that since Summorum Pontificum the order as a whole has popularly tacked towards the Old Rite. Said troublemakers have managed to get the ear of the faction of the Curia that hated Benedict and his efforts at liturgical reform, who were only too happy to make an example of any so-called traditionalists.
The FFI are being sacrificed on the altar of the tired and dated ideology of the "Spirit of Vatican II".
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
Presumably traditional Catholics take what the Pope says more seriously than others do. Presumably they also consider that even when not speaking with authority in the formal sense, what he says is authoritative in a way that doesn't apply to the utterances of the rest of us.
So one would also imagine that if the Pope tells one that one's views and practices have something of the Pelagian about them, rather than feel insulted, the true traditionalist reaction would be 'there must be something in this. I should take seriously what he says and examine myself'.
Rubbish. What you describe is mindless ultramontanism.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
I'm not up enough on the reasons that traditionalists are adamant about using the old Latin Rite. Do they think only the Latin Mass is actually a true Mass? I'm confused by why the pope calls its supporters Palagian. Is it because ritual has to be done "old school" in order to be salvific? Or is it that return to Tradition will be salvific for the Holy Catholic Church?
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
CL
I think it would be helpful within the thread if we defined what we mean by Catholic Traditionalists. I know the term is used to describe both 'hermeneutic of continuity' enthusiasts for the Latin Mass within the Catholic Church and Lefebvrists and sedevacantists outside it. The former, of course accept Vatican II and the latter don't. Of course the FFI are within the former group and I didn't intend to imply otherwise.
You're right to clarify that point because one of the accusations made against the FFI has been 'crypo-Lefebvrianism' although no evidence seems to have been given for this accusation.
[ 04. January 2014, 18:05: Message edited by: Tommy1 ]
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
Still clear as mud. Specifically, Tommy1, what is it do you understand that these particular Franciscans are doing or advocating that the pope finds "Palagian" and why?
Thanks.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
Still clear as mud. Specifically, Tommy1, what is it do you understand that these particular Franciscans are doing or advocating that the pope finds "Palagian" and why?
Thanks.
In 1962-5 the Second Vatican Council (otherwise known as Vatican II) sat and instituted a number of reforms in the Catholic Church. Amongst those taking part were Bishop Karol Wojtyła and a young theologian called Father Joseph Ratzinger. One of the reforms after the Council was a reform of the Mass that took place in 1969. This involved using the vernacular instead of Latin, having the priest face the congregation instead of facing away from them and other changes. A French Archbishop called Archbishop Lefebvre rejected this change and split from the Catholic Church to form his own group.
In recent years there has been a movement within the Catholic Church to use the Latin Mass in addition to the Paul VI Mass. However many Bishops within the Church hierarchy are hostile to the Latin Mass associating it with opposition to the Vatican II reforms. Benedict XVI however was sympathetic to the use of the Latin Mass and in 2007 issued the Summorum Pontificum which said priests could use the Latin Mass without having to have prior permission from their Bishops, who in many cases were hostile to the use of this Mass.
I'm happy to be corrected if I've got any of that wrong.
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
That is a good explanation of the situation. Thanks. But I still don't understand where the Palagian charge comes in. Sorry, if I am belaboring something that seems obvious to others.
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
That is a good explanation of the situation. Thanks. But I still don't understand where the Palagian charge comes in. Sorry, if I am belaboring something that seems obvious to others.
I think the suggestion is that adherence of such groups to things like the use of the Latin Mass and the Rosary could tend towards a works only based religion.
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
I think the suggestion is that adherence of such groups to things like the use of the Latin Mass and the Rosary could tend towards a works only based religion.
Heeding the Holy Father's comments in the link above about the offering of 3,525 rosaries, I'm sure that's what he meant. Why 3,525, and not, say 3,524 or 3,526 or even 6,229? His comments about not laughing at it, makes it clear he thought the whole idea would be both funny and ludicrous if it wasn't for the serious implications. I think he intended his warning to be taken seriously, and that it should be.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
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Lyda*Rose
Ship's broken porthole
# 4544
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
That is a good explanation of the situation. Thanks. But I still don't understand where the Palagian charge comes in. Sorry, if I am belaboring something that seems obvious to others.
I think the suggestion is that adherence of such groups to things like the use of the Latin Mass and the Rosary could tend towards a works only based religion.
Ah. So in Pope Francis' view, these particular RC groups with their devotion to certain outward forms and rituals make them like the followers of Palagius? I thought Palagism was more about free will, and the idea that humans could avoid sin, be holy, and do good works without the active help of God. ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
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"Dear God, whose name I do not know - thank you for my life. I forgot how BIG... thank you. Thank you for my life." ~from Joe Vs the Volcano
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
I like the phrase "self-absorbed retrogrades who aren't helping the church's mission to evangelise". It's attributed to Pope Francis. Are those his actual words?
I've found the original quote. Its from his recent apostolic exhortation Evangelii Gaudium. His exact words were "self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism". the context is as follows
quote:
[T]he self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying.
One conservative catholic blogger, Father John Zuhlsdorf has responded by advertising mugs and bumper stickers with the slogan "I am a Self-Absorbed Promethean Neopelagian and proud of it."
http://wdtprs.com/blog/2013/12/new-z-swag-i-am-a-self-absorbed-promethean-neopelagian-and-proud-of-it/
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Doublethink.
Ship's Foolwise Unperson
# 1984
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
quote:
Originally posted by Lyda*Rose:
That is a good explanation of the situation. Thanks. But I still don't understand where the Palagian charge comes in. Sorry, if I am belaboring something that seems obvious to others.
I think the suggestion is that adherence of such groups to things like the use of the Latin Mass and the Rosary could tend towards a works only based religion.
Ah. So in Pope Francis' view, these particular RC groups with their devotion to certain outward forms and rituals make them like the followers of Palagius? I thought Palagism was more about free will, and the idea that humans could avoid sin, be holy, and do good works without the active help of God.
It sounds as if he feels they are treating the liturgy like a magic spell.
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All political thinking for years past has been vitiated in the same way. People can foresee the future only when it coincides with their own wishes, and the most grossly obvious facts can be ignored when they are unwelcome. George Orwell
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Trisagion
Shipmate
# 5235
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Tommy1:
. . . having the priest face the congregation instead of facing away from them and other changes.
If you can find any where in the documents of Vatican II or in the General Instruction for the Roman Missal that accompanied the revised Missal anything mandating, or even authorising this, I will, in the words of Francis Cardinal Arinze, buy you a chicken. Furthermore, whilst the Council did permit the use of the vernacular in certain circumstances, it also demanded that the use of the Latin language in the liturgy be maintained. What happened after the Council Fathers went home can hardly be laid at their door.
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ceterum autem censeo tabula delenda esse
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Tommy1
Shipmate
# 17916
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Posted
Just to give a little more background to what I meant by 'hermeneutic of continuity'. The term comes from a speech Benedict XVI made in 2005 talking about Vatican II. He said
quote:
The problems in its implementation arose from the fact that two contrary hermeneutics came face to face and quarrelled with each other.[...]On the one hand, there is an interpretation that I would call "a hermeneutic of discontinuity and rupture"; it has frequently availed itself of the sympathies of the mass media, and also one trend of modern theology. On the other, there is the "hermeneutic of reform", of renewal in the continuity of the one subject-Church which the Lord has given to us.
LINK
It seems that the reason the Latin Mass is being such a flash point is that its use emphasises continuity between pre-Vatican II and post-Vatican II Roman Catholic theology.
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Holy Smoke
Shipmate
# 14866
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Posted
quote:
[T]he self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying.
He could almost be speaking about his predecessor...
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Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras
Shipmate
# 11274
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
[T]he self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying.
He could almost be speaking about his predecessor...
Didn't Benedict speak of a smaller but more disciplined -- read, elitist -- Catholic Church, at least in the global North; whilst Francis talks in terms of a style of organic evangelism that is not dogmatic proselytism, and seems to be almost the antithesis of Benedict's pessimistic approach toward the Church in the Northern Hemisphere?
It ain't hard BTW for people to understand the text of the Latin Ordinary of the Mass, especially if they come from a Romance language culture (and if the Ordinary is sung using settings that aren't overly ornamented so as to obscure the words and phrases themselves). Likewise, it would be possible to have other key portions of the Mass in Latin, audibly and in dialogue form when that is called for, because the meaning of these can easily be grasped or learnt by even non-Latinists. But that still needs to remain just an option to be used with a properly prepared congregation; anything more would indeed be a form of elitism and clericalism that reduces the congregation to mere spectators of the Holy Mysteries.
[ 05. January 2014, 20:03: Message edited by: Lietuvos Sv. Kazimieras ]
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Holy Smoke:
quote:
[T]he self-absorbed promethean neopelagianism of those who ultimately trust only in their own powers and feel superior to others because they observe certain rules or remain intransigently faithful to a particular Catholic style from the past. A supposed soundness of doctrine or discipline leads instead to a narcissistic and authoritarian elitism, whereby instead of evangelizing, one analyzes and classifies others, and instead of opening the door to grace, one exhausts his or her energies in inspecting and verifying.
He could almost be speaking about his predecessor...
Idiotic post.
Posts: 647 | From: Ireland | Registered: Jan 2011
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CL
Shipmate
# 16145
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Posted
quote:
Didn't Benedict speak of a smaller but more disciplined -- read, elitist -- Catholic Church, at least in the global North; whilst Francis talks in terms of a style of organic evangelism that is not dogmatic proselytism, and seems to be almost the antithesis of Benedict's pessimistic approach toward the Church in the Northern Hemisphere?
Utterly, utterly wrong.
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"Even if Catholics faithful to Tradition are reduced to a handful, they are the ones who are the true Church of Jesus Christ." - Athanasius of Alexandria
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
CL
Care to expand on your pronouncements? For the sake of serious discussion, you understand. You don't have to, of course.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
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