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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Boycott £2 coins?
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Spike
Mostly Harmless
# 36
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One more comment, though, before I am done - on the issue of boycotting stamps. I am surprised that so many Christians seem to have a problem with boycotts. Out bishops and other leaders increasingly talk about 'consumer power' and organisations like Traidcraft and those who push for 'clean' clothing have shown how effective boycotts can be in the furthering of justice.
Yes, but our bishops and other leaders increasingly talk about boycotting over issues that actually matter.
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"May you get to heaven before the devil knows you're dead" - Irish blessing
Posts: 12860 | From: The Valley of Crocuses | Registered: May 2001
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Sorry to be cynical, but I am no more convinced by boycotts than I have been by sanctions in the various contexts when they have been proposed or tried. Both are usually chosen as a remedy by those who would like to do something that will deliver a result, but know they can't.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Penny S:
You could take all the £2 coins of this stamp you are offered, and donate them to the SSSFA, British Legion or similar charity.
No sure whether that was a joke.
Many of us boycott the British Legion for its glamorising of war.
That's why people get cross at us when we wear white poppies.
Wasn't a joke, but I take the point about the Legion, though they do supportive work with those the government, in the tradition established back in the reign of the first Elizabeth, can't be bothered with. (My Dad wasn't interested in joining, saying that he felt that the atmosphere was as if the men involved had not done anything else of interest in their lives since the war. Their web site mentioning the camaraderie arising from the care homes only being the ex-military does seem to emphasise a separating out which isn't quite glamourising, but doesn't feel quite right.)
What about St Dunstan's? - I know it has a new name now, but can't recall it. My own exclusions tend to be the modern ones which have sprung up with an emphasis on the people they help being heroes. At any rate, there aren't any more victims of Kitchener to be helped, but no shortage of more recent sufferers.
[ 06. January 2014, 19:02: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
Leo, you could get round it quite simply by paying by card for everything. You can also print out postage from the comfort of your own home.
There you are, all sorted now. No need to thank me, though if you insist, feel free to send me some of those £2 coins you don't want (and the designs are interesting: I had the Dickens one turn up in my change last month).
Posts: 25445 | Registered: May 2001
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Leo, you could get round it quite simply by paying by card for everything. You can also print out postage from the comfort of your own home.
There you are, all sorted now. No need to thank me, though if you insist, feel free to send me some of those £2 coins you don't want (and the designs are interesting: I had the Dickens one turn up in my change last month).
Indeed. I rarely pay by cask with credit cards and bus pass etc.
Now if you want my cash, send me you your bank details- sort code, branch, personal account number etc.!!!!!!!!!!
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Now if you want my cash, send me you your bank details- sort code, branch, personal account number etc.!!!!!!!!!!
How are things in Abuja?
Tell you what, give us your home address and you will receive small padded envelopes containing reply-paid labels to a post restante in Auchterarder.
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: By saying to the powers that be 'we should represent Y and Z as well as X'. Not by saying 'you've represented X so I'm going to go off in a huff'.
Wouldn't it be easier if the State represented/endorsed no religion at all, but left this to the churches/synagogues/mosques...?
Not, I think, when it comes to something like stamps. Because the general philosophy here is probably some statement about 'representing the community'. And if the community has religions, I don't think it's right for the government to say 'we are a secular government and therefore we can't reference religion in any way, ever'.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Ariel:
Leo, you could get round it quite simply by paying by card for everything. You can also print out postage from the comfort of your own home.
There you are, all sorted now. No need to thank me, though if you insist, feel free to send me some of those £2 coins you don't want (and the designs are interesting: I had the Dickens one turn up in my change last month).
I didn't know you could do postage.
But i do pay by card for virtually everything. I think the only exception is the gym.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: And if the community has religions, I don't think it's right for the government to say 'we are a secular government and therefore we can't reference religion in any way, ever'.
But it might be right for them to say "We are a secular government and therefore we should be careful not to give the image of privileging one religion."
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One more comment, though, before I am done - on the issue of boycotting stamps. I am surprised that so many Christians seem to have a problem with boycotts. Out bishops and other leaders increasingly talk about 'consumer power' and organisations like Traidcraft and those who push for 'clean' clothing have shown how effective boycotts can be in the furthering of justice.
Yes, but our bishops and other leaders increasingly talk about boycotting over issues that actually matter.
So wear and carnage doesn't matter?
F. O. R. has a similar ideas to mine.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Swarthmoor
Apprentice
# 17960
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Posted
There's one thing could be done, which would be effective if enough people did it. The Mint is always complaining about how coins saved in people's piggy-banks (and thus taken out of circulation) mess up their attempts to keep the right number of coins of different denominations in circulation.
So (for people who financially in a position to do this) we could accept the coins when we get them (in change or whatever) and then take them out of circulation until December 2018. Just put them in a jar and leave them there until all the fuss is over. Then, a great heap of the coins being paid into banks just before Christmas 2018 (but after 11 November) would send its own message.
Posts: 1 | From: West Midlands | Registered: Jan 2014
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Amanda B. Reckondwythe
Dressed for Church
# 5521
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Swarthmoor:
There's one thing could be done, which would be effective if enough people did it. The Mint is always complaining about how coins saved in people's piggy-banks (and thus taken out of circulation) mess up their attempts to keep the right number of coins of different denominations in circulation.
This certainly is what has happened in the US with the 50-cent piece and the various dollar coins, as well as the $2.00 bill.
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"I take prayer too seriously to use it as an excuse for avoiding work and responsibility." -- The Revd Martin Luther King Jr.
Posts: 10542 | From: The Great Southwest | Registered: Feb 2004
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Welcome Swarthmoor and Happy New Year ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
If you haven't already done so, please check out the Ship's Ten Commandments and board posting guidelines. You can also say hello on the "Welcome Aboard 2014" thread in All Saints. Enjoy the voyage!
Eutychus
Purgatory Host
[PS: General suggestion: another use for all those £2 coins might be to donate them all to the Floating Fund ![[Biased]](wink.gif) ...]
[ 07. January 2014, 17:09: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Alan Cresswell
Mad Scientist 先生
# 31
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Eutychus:
[PS: General suggestion: another use for all those £2 coins might be to donate them all to the Floating Fund ...]
A great idea, but a bit late to suggest it.
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Don't cling to a mistake just because you spent a lot of time making it.
Posts: 32413 | From: East Kilbride (Scotland) or 福島 | Registered: May 2001
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
quote:
orfeo: And if the community has religions, I don't think it's right for the government to say 'we are a secular government and therefore we can't reference religion in any way, ever'.
But it might be right for them to say "We are a secular government and therefore we should be careful not to give the image of privileging one religion."
Yes.
All of which, I think it's worth adding, isn't readily applicable to the UK.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
Michael Foot was wrong on everything. Clever and brave, but just wrong.
...
On the Falklands ? And not a fan of Tony Benn, either.
.... and wasn't afraid to point the finger of blame at the real villain of the peace in the Bosnian crisis .
Foot didn't align himself to the glorification of war . The press put the knife in over the infamous Remembrance Day 'donkey jacket', (which it wasn't), incident , and that sadly is how he's remembered.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
orfeo: All of which, I think it's worth adding, isn't readily applicable to the UK.
I know, as I've already indicated in an earlier post.
I don't know leo's stand on disestablishment, but if he's in favour of it, his dislike of a Nativity stamp would fit right in.
These are last year's Christmas Stamps from the Netherlands. You see people sleighing and ice-skating, lots of snow and Christmas trees, but no overly religious images. I think that having a discussion about whether it would be a good idea to issue a stamp with a Nativity scene would be a no-starter in my country.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
These are last year's Christmas Stamps from the Netherlands. You see people sleighing and ice-skating, lots of snow and Christmas trees, but no overly religious images. I think that having a discussion about whether it would be a good idea to issue a stamp with a Nativity scene would be a no-starter in my country.
They may be pretty, pretty but what have those pictures got to do with Christmas? If you're going to issue Christmas stamps at all, they should be about Christmas. Otherwise, why have special stamps at all?
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
quote:
Enoch: They may be pretty, pretty but what have those pictures got to do with Christmas? If you're going to issue Christmas stamps at all, they should be about Christmas. Otherwise, why have special stamps at all?
My guess is that they are about Christmas as a cultural phenomenon that exists within the Dutch tradition and which is celebrated also outside of Christianity.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Firenze:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Am in too much of a hurry to see what the Latin means - we used to have a rule requiring translation by those who posted in another language.
Save me time by telling me what it means and I can comment.
You really don't know what a non-sequitur is? Latin in origin, but thoroughly Anglicized. How are you on ad hoc and post mortem? Would you require glosses for hoi polloi and tiramisu, bungalow and detente, schadenfreude and chutzpah?
Chutzpah, I can do.
Hoi polloi, too.
Because i did Hebrew and Greek at uni.
Latin was closed to me because I failed the 11+ because my father chose to commit suicide not long before i sat the exam.
They DID do a post mortem!!!
Hallelujah?
Amen?
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Spike:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
One more comment, though, before I am done - on the issue of boycotting stamps. I am surprised that so many Christians seem to have a problem with boycotts. Out bishops and other leaders increasingly talk about 'consumer power' and organisations like Traidcraft and those who push for 'clean' clothing have shown how effective boycotts can be in the furthering of justice.
Yes, but our bishops and other leaders increasingly talk about boycotting over issues that actually matter.
So wear and carnage doesn't matter?
F. O. R. has a similar ideas to mine.
There is no URL in this link.
sorry - 2nd attempt
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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Firenze
Ordinary decent pagan
# 619
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
F. O. R. has a similar ideas to mine. ....sorry - 2nd attempt
Not really. Their idea is that already suggested by a number of posters - that you send the money to a worthy cause (eg the Hosts' gin cabinet).
What you do appear to share is a failure to take in the Royal Mint's statements about the series of commerative (not 'celebratory') coins true to specific historical stages in the perception of the war - in which context the Kitchener image makes perfect sense.
[ 08. January 2014, 16:06: Message edited by: Firenze ]
Posts: 17302 | From: Edinburgh | Registered: Jun 2001
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L'organist
Shipmate
# 17338
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Posted
While some from a perspective of the 21st century may deplore what they see as Kichener's glorifying of war, they fail to take into account the social mores of the time, including the very real patriotism at all levels of society.
As Firenze pointed out, the image is only one of many that is associated with WWI.
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Rara temporum felicitate ubi sentire quae velis et quae sentias dicere licet
Posts: 4950 | From: somewhere in England... | Registered: Sep 2012
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deano
princess
# 12063
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There is now a call to put Edith Cavill on it, instead of Kitchener.
By whom?
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"The moral high ground is slowly being bombed to oblivion. " - Supermatelot
Posts: 2118 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: Nov 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
She'd be good, but for 2015 (centenary of her death) if they don't so something to do with Gallipoli.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
Edith Cavell??? That's like frying pan into fire. Is it just because she was a nurse or what?
Honestly, the same level of historical illiteracy which seems to have castigated Kitchener despite him being about the only person in a position of authority in the UK armed forces in 1914 warning that it was going to be a) bloody and b) not over by Christmas is going to be replaced with another example of British propaganda at its finest. When she got shot in 1915 the UK papers were full of outraged editorials and lurid depictions of the young girl cruelly sacrificed by the barbarous Germans. In reality she was in her 50s and yes, nursing, but also working for SIS (MI6 a generation later) in an occupied country and helping British prisoners to escape. Now, all of these things are laudable (and indeed the very reason I've always liked her) but the fact remains that even under the Geneva Convention as it stood at the time her execution was allowed - she just got busted (which is why the Foreign Office let the Germans get on with it without even issuing a protest).
Edith Cavell is a deeply complex character involved in murky things at a murky time. She's not in the same league as Kitchener, but she's not the great beacon of the pacifists either.
Having said that, I'd quite happily put her on the coin in 2015 *when it would actually be chronologically appropriate*
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by deano:
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There is now a call to put Edith Cavill on it, instead of Kitchener.
By whom?
We are not supposed to link to petitions and such like so all I can say (I believe - would a host please delete, otherwise?) is that it is from Sioned-Mair Richards from change.org and they've already got 15 thousand supporters within less than 12 hours.
[ 09. January 2014, 15:51: Message edited by: leo ]
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
Posts: 23198 | From: Bristol | Registered: Oct 2001
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
There is now a call to put Edith Cavill on it, instead of Kitchener.
seconded on the "by whom?" question.
Also, it's a little bit late in the day for "instead", given they're already in production.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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Jane R
Shipmate
# 331
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Posted
leo: quote:
... and they've already got 15 thousand supporters within less than 12 hours.
If you know how to work Twitter you could get 15,000 people to support just about anything. You might even get 15,000 people to sign a petition calling for the exact opposite thing the next day, though they wouldn't all be the same people.
Also, what betjemaniac and L'organist said. Kitchener has been discredited, but *at the time we are marking the anniversary of*, he was a very important figure. And that recruiting poster has been parodied so often it probably counts as Popular Culture.
Posts: 3958 | From: Jorvik | Registered: May 2001
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Sandemaniac
Shipmate
# 12829
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Posted
Tangentially, I just looked at the threads in Purg, saw this one, and my immediate thought was "Why put Geoffrey on a coin?
This despite dropping in and out of the thread several times since it started...
AG
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"It becomes soon pleasantly apparent that change-ringing is by no means merely an excuse for beer" Charles Dickens gets it wrong, 1869
Posts: 3574 | From: The wardrobe of my soul | Registered: Jul 2007
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Ariston
Insane Unicorn
# 10894
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jane R:
Also, what betjemaniac and L'organist said. Kitchener has been discredited, but *at the time we are marking the anniversary of*, he was a very important figure. And that recruiting poster has been parodied so often it probably counts as Popular Culture.
"Probably?" At this point, given how many times that pose and poster has been copied in however many countries, which have themselves been parodied into oblivion, I think it's pretty much part of the world's popular culture. Being an American, I always thought of that poster as "Uncle Sam Wants You," and then "Only YOU Can Prevent Forest Fires," not even knowing about Lord Kitchner. If you're looking for an iconic and hugely influential image, that's it.
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“Therefore, let it be explained that nowhere are the proprieties quite so strictly enforced as in men’s colleges that invite young women guests, especially over-night visitors in the fraternity houses.” Emily Post, 1937.
Posts: 6849 | From: The People's Republic of Balcones | Registered: Jan 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
We are not supposed to link to petitions and such like so all I can say (I believe - would a host please delete, otherwise?) is that it is from Sioned-Mair Richards...
I don't know Ms Richards but I do know that here in Wales when you see someone with a name like that doing anything that has a 'peace' flavour you have to beware. They will hector you in two languages about the wickedness of war (subtext: wickedness of the warlike English and the British state) until you start wondering whether there is something to be said for extreme violence after all. The Churches Tent at the Eisteddfod on Hiroshima Day is a place to steer well clear of...
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
..... if they don't so something to do with Gallipoli.
What might that be I wonder , a coin with Churchill's face on it maybe ?
Even our greatest leaders have chapters in their lives they'd rather weren't there.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
..... if they don't so something to do with Gallipoli.
What might that be I wonder , a coin with Churchill's face on it maybe ?
Even our greatest leaders have chapters in their lives they'd rather weren't there.
In fairness, current thinking at the military colleges and in the universities, having studied it at both is that Churchill was probably right and Gallipoli should have worked. the RN and army grown-ups stuffed it up, Churchill carried the can because it was his idea. It wasn't his idea to force the Dardanelles weeks ahead of the troops, or indeed to land them on a deserted promontory and have them sit on the beach for a couple of days to give the Turks a sporting opportunity to flood the place with their own forces.
Gallipoli was a disaster, but it wasn't pre-ordained as one.
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And is it true? For if it is....
Posts: 1481 | From: behind the dreaming spires | Registered: Mar 2013
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
Guess we'll have to wait til 2015 for an in-depth on Gallipoli . It's an interesting topic, and one that bears the usual hallmarks of failed WW1 strategies .
Ridiculous optimism , ridiculous arrogance, and meticulous planning that bore no resemblance to that which frontline servicemen knew to be hard-bitten reality .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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LeRoc
Famous Dutch pirate
# 3216
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Posted
To be honest, I can understand a bit of where leo is coming from. Normally, this kind of coins is made to celebrate positive things that happened in the past. It seems that in this case, the Royal Mint decided to opt for something different, and tell a four year story instead: the good, but also the in-hindsight-not-so-good. I can see that this can feel a bit jarring.
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I know why God made the rhinoceros, it's because He couldn't see the rhinoceros, so He made the rhinoceros to be able to see it. (Clarice Lispector)
Posts: 9474 | From: Brazil / Africa | Registered: Aug 2002
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Honest Ron Bacardi
Shipmate
# 38
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by LeRoc:
To be honest, I can understand a bit of where leo is coming from. Normally, this kind of coins is made to celebrate positive things that happened in the past. It seems that in this case, the Royal Mint decided to opt for something different, and tell a four year story instead: the good, but also the in-hindsight-not-so-good. I can see that this can feel a bit jarring.
After the fall of the communist states of eastern Europe, there was a rash of statue destroying, street renaming, removal of iconic materials etc. Over time - and before it was all obliterated, there was a change of heart, and you can now go to see a lot of communist era statuary etc. displayed in public parks. The thought was largely that these things represented a part of the country's history, and attempting to airbrush it away might in the long run prove more dangerous than helpful. So it remains.
There's a similar thing to be said here I think. The commemoration of problematic periods of our history does have something going for it. With the benefit of hindsight we can easily see the nature of what is problematic about this period, but isn't that itself a useful thing to have before us?
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Anglo-Cthulhic
Posts: 4857 | From: the corridors of Pah! | Registered: May 2001
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by EtymologicalEvangelical:
And I boycott people who wear red clothes, otherwise I would be discriminating against those who wear blue*.
...[/QUOTE]
[Aside]
There are late night places here in Toronto where a person wearing blue can not go, and likewise a person wearing red can not go into others.
Bloods vs. Crips
[/Aside]
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Og: Thread Killer
Ship's token CN Mennonite
# 3200
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Posted
I did preview that..... ![[brick wall]](graemlins/brick_wall.gif)
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I wish I was seeking justice loving mercy and walking humbly but... "Cease to lament for that thou canst not help, And study help for that which thou lament'st."
Posts: 5025 | From: Toronto | Registered: Aug 2002
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
There are late night places here in Toronto where a person wearing blue can not go, and likewise a person wearing red can not go into others.
Can you explain that please to the rest of us who do not live in Toronto? Is this something to do with gangs? Toronto isn't well known for having violent gangs over here.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
The Royal Mint seems not to be on the defensive.
At the heart of his reaction - and indeed yours, leo - is an unexpressed assumption that falls apart when examined.
The assumption is this: that you're expected to have a positive reaction to the image.
Why should that be the case?
It's the same assumption that underlay reactions to the synchronised swimming team that intended to reference the Nazis in their Olympics routine (a routine that was groundbreaking precisely because it wasn't all nice and fluffy). It's the same assumption that underlay some half-hearted attempts here in Australia some years ago to ban the film Lolita.
At heart, it's an assumption that depiction is approval.
Depiction is depiction. It's not approval. Commemoration is not automatically positive commemoration.
The image of Kitchener's poster is being reproduced because it's iconic - what it's iconic of is entirely a separate question.
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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orfeo
Ship's Musical Counterpoint
# 13878
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Posted
To put it another way, the entire argument boils down to "We can't depict that because it's a bad thing."
Well, sorry, but even if I agree with the premise "it's a bad thing", that premise doesn't support the conclusion "therefore we can't depict it".
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Technology has brought us all closer together. Turns out a lot of the people you meet as a result are complete idiots.
Posts: 18173 | From: Under | Registered: Jul 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
I thought that was a very strange blog - the author appears blind to the fact that he has has a particular view on things.
About two thirds of the way through the article he writes:
quote:
I am not asking for coins that simply reflect my own view of the war.
And yet that seems to be exactly what he wants.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Enoch:
quote:
Originally posted by Og: Thread Killer:
There are late night places here in Toronto where a person wearing blue can not go, and likewise a person wearing red can not go into others.
Bloods vs. Crips
Can you explain that please to the rest of us who do not live in Toronto? Is this something to do with gangs? Toronto isn't well known for having violent gangs over here.
Added the rest of the quote back in because I think it helps clarify the point. Because the Bloods and Crips are definitely gangs in North America. (An American export that I am sure the Canadians could have done without.)
[ 13. January 2014, 11:43: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Hawk
Semi-social raptor
# 14289
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by betjemaniac:
quote:
Originally posted by rolyn:
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
..... if they don't so something to do with Gallipoli.
What might that be I wonder , a coin with Churchill's face on it maybe ?
Even our greatest leaders have chapters in their lives they'd rather weren't there.
In fairness, current thinking at the military colleges and in the universities, having studied it at both is that Churchill was probably right and Gallipoli should have worked. the RN and army grown-ups stuffed it up, Churchill carried the can because it was his idea. It wasn't his idea to force the Dardanelles weeks ahead of the troops, or indeed to land them on a deserted promontory and have them sit on the beach for a couple of days to give the Turks a sporting opportunity to flood the place with their own forces.
Gallipoli was a disaster, but it wasn't pre-ordained as one.
Thank you. After reading about what actually happened I've often thought Churchill was a convenient scapegoat for Gallipoli. His plan was just the high-level idea of opening up a second front in the war to relieve the Western troops in the trenches to end the war quicker. (Similar to his belief that Italy and the Balkans could be used similarly at the end of WWII). It was a good outflanking idea and if it had worked he'd have been a hero. But he wasn't in charge of the operational planning (not surprising since he was a politician, not a general). It was the military that made it FUBAR, not him.
The people who were responsible for the mess were de Roebeck who failed to capture the straits by sea, and then refused to support the land invasion with further assaults, despite Churchill's orders. And General Sir Hamilton, whose management of the land invasion was atrocious.
De Roebeck got out of it unscathed but Hamilton's career was over. The Secretary of State for War should have been blamed in place of Churchill since he was responsible for the inadaquete supply and planning that Hamilton had to work under. But he happened to be Lord Kitchener, who was widely considered a war hero, and recently dead into the bargain, so no one was allowed to criticise him.
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“We are to find God in what we know, not in what we don't know." Dietrich Bonhoeffer
See my blog for 'interesting' thoughts
Posts: 1739 | From: Oxford, UK | Registered: Nov 2008
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