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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: God's Cadets: BBC documentary on the Salvation Army
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Wesley S Chappell
Shipmate
# 4186
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Posted
I watched this very interesting documentary on the Salvation Army on the BBC last night.
Some things struck me:
- They are much stricter than I thought. I somehow imagined they were more like Quakers who did a lot of social work, but they had some pretty hardcore evangelical doctrines, including something about salvation being reserved only for those who audibly speak a particular prayer
- there seemed to be no non-white people in the training college at all, which strikes me as odd given that non-whites are a major constituent of churchgoers in the UK these days. They did seem to be made up of what I would call the upper or 'respectable' working class (one officer said she had been criticised for being 'middle class'); perhaps that demographic tends to be 'whiter' than others?
- despite having to foreswear drinking and smoking, there was obviously a bit too much eating going on and I wondered if this was compensation in some way - some of them really need to watch their weight.
- on a positive note I think what they do is very good - I particularly liked the 'prayer walks' they did around the neighbourhood, and the woman minister who said 'when people ask me what's a minister doing in a lap dancing club, I ask "what's he doing in a church"'.
- I also liked the idea of them being at a car boot sale. I think a lot of modern people would respond well to this kind of hands-on Christian concern, but the strictness of the actual doctrines might put them off.
Discuss...
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ALMIGHTY God, the fountain of all wisdom, who knowest our necessities before we ask, and our ignorance in asking.
Posts: 477 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
The SA are pretty open about their beliefs so they shouldn't come as a shock. They grew out of Methodism.
As for commenting on the weight of some of the people in the documentary - how rude. It's none of your business.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Wesley S Chappell
Shipmate
# 4186
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Posted
I didn't mean to be rude and I'm sorry if anyone involved in the documentary is reading this - I didn't mean to be offensive. My point was that an organisation which strictly forbids drinking and smoking among its members should perhaps be more actively promoting a healthy lifestyle rather than handing out cakes during classes...
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ALMIGHTY God, the fountain of all wisdom, who knowest our necessities before we ask, and our ignorance in asking.
Posts: 477 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2003
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Is smoking forbidden? I don't think it is. Teetotalism however isn't promoted for health reasons but because of the social ills of alcohol (as the SA see them, and indeed do many Nonconformists). It's also part of the Methodist heritage of the SA. You are missing the point.
Tea and cake is certainly part of much British church culture, SA or otherwise. It's a social thing.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Horseman Bree
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# 5290
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Posted
How odd to miss the point on what the SA does!
Or do you rigorously avoid after-service tea&cake yourself? (I'm sure you don't actually smoke in the church)
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It's Not That Simple
Posts: 5372 | From: more herring choker than bluenose | Registered: Dec 2003
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Francophile
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# 17838
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The SA are pretty open about their beliefs so they shouldn't come as a shock. They grew out of Methodism.
As for commenting on the weight of some of the people in the documentary - how rude. It's none of your business.
Sorry Jade, it's not kind to ignore obesity. If you know someone who is drinking to much because they're lonely/depressed/unhappy, you wouldn't ignore it. As a friend, you'd raise the topic, sensitively, and try to help. Same with overeating. Indifference is not consistent with love. The OP'er wasn't being rude.
Posts: 243 | From: United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2013
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The SA are pretty open about their beliefs so they shouldn't come as a shock. They grew out of Methodism.
As for commenting on the weight of some of the people in the documentary - how rude. It's none of your business.
Sorry Jade, it's not kind to ignore obesity. If you know someone who is drinking to much because they're lonely/depressed/unhappy, you wouldn't ignore it. As a friend, you'd raise the topic, sensitively, and try to help. Same with overeating. Indifference is not consistent with love. The OP'er wasn't being rude.
Erm, being alcohol dependent due to depression/unhappiness is quite different to someone being over an arbitrary weight (you surely know that overeating is not the only reason why people are overweight, right?). In any case, the OP doesn't know the people featured personally and cannot speak about their health but is commenting on their appearance as a stranger. That is rude.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Wesley S Chappell
Shipmate
# 4186
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Horseman Bree:
How odd to miss the point on what the SA does!
Or do you rigorously avoid after-service tea&cake yourself? (I'm sure you don't actually smoke in the church)
I do know what the SA does, I just didn't realise they were quite so strict doctrinely.
I probably would avoid the cake if I was obese, but I'm not, so I don't.
(I don't smoke in church but I have been known to take the occasional pinch of snuff during a particularly long sermon. If Dean Swift could do it while he preached, I think it's ok for me to do it while I listen...)
Perhaps I shouldn't have commented on anyone's weight. It's just that although I'm British I live abroad in a country where most people are quite slim (due to lack of food and hard physical work) so I find it quite striking when I see the weight of many Britons nowadays. No offence intended.
Let's discuss more important aspects of the prog!
[ 08. January 2014, 12:36: Message edited by: Wesley S Chappell ]
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ALMIGHTY God, the fountain of all wisdom, who knowest our necessities before we ask, and our ignorance in asking.
Posts: 477 | From: London | Registered: Feb 2003
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Bostonman
Shipmate
# 17108
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Francophile:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
The SA are pretty open about their beliefs so they shouldn't come as a shock. They grew out of Methodism.
As for commenting on the weight of some of the people in the documentary - how rude. It's none of your business.
Sorry Jade, it's not kind to ignore obesity. If you know someone who is drinking to much because they're lonely/depressed/unhappy, you wouldn't ignore it. As a friend, you'd raise the topic, sensitively, and try to help. Same with overeating. Indifference is not consistent with love. The OP'er wasn't being rude.
Erm, being alcohol dependent due to depression/unhappiness is quite different to someone being over an arbitrary weight (you surely know that overeating is not the only reason why people are overweight, right?). In any case, the OP doesn't know the people featured personally and cannot speak about their health but is commenting on their appearance as a stranger. That is rude.
It's also distinctly not kind to promote, participate in, or endorse the culture of weight-based shame that leads to the absolute horror of eating disorders.
I'm not surprised by anything in the OP, although my knowledge of the SA is basically limited to Mudfrog's posts here. I'm generally more surprised by people's lack of knowledge when they're giving money to the bell-ringers in the street...
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
I thought the programme was beautifully put together; it was far better as one long piece rather than a series. In particular it nicely moved through several themes.
I was struck by the contrast between rigidity of some of their practices (and that Uniform!) and the generosity of spirit shown to the needy. I also liked the senior lecturer who was so honest about her questions. One wonders how the SA copes with those who are into "Faith Development" theories.
I knew an SA officer who moved to Britain from Greece. Having previously rejected Orthodoxy as "dead" he was beginning to rediscover something of its positive aspects and had an ikon in his office.
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley S Chappell:
There seemed to be no non-white people in the training college at all, which strikes me as odd given that non-whites are a major constituent of churchgoers in the UK these days. They did seem to be made up of what I would call the upper or 'respectable' working class
Be aware that outside of London, most Nonconformist congregations are overwhelmingly white. In 2005 93.3% of people worshipping in English Methodist churches were white, which is an overrepresentation when compared with the 2001 civil census. Very mixed or majority non-white congregations are mostly found in large cities. Over 50% of worshippers in London are non-white, but this isn't true for other parts of Britain.
Moreover, although much progress has been made, non-white people are usually underrepresented in ministry in the mainstream denominations. Again, this probably isn't so obvious in London.
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Baptist Trainfan
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# 15128
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Posted
All true. However I would have thought - possibly wrongly - that the SA was more to be found in urban rather than rural areas. I wonder if this is true and, if so, whether it is attracting a proportionate number of non-white worshippers in those places.
One troubling feature of the programme was the number of Cadets who come from died-in-the-wool SA families. Does this mean that these folk "know the jargon" and are thus more likely to be accepted into training? Does it mean that the SA is proving unattractive to outsiders? Does it mean that evangelism is taking a smaller role in the Army than social action? I don't know, but someone might!
Posts: 9750 | From: The other side of the Severn | Registered: Sep 2009
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aig
Shipmate
# 429
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Posted
I watched it to compare their training (SA) and my own experience at theological college (c of e). The main difference I saw was that they were much more uniform in their beliefs, language and worship practices, than we were. Our tat was definitely better, however.
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That's not how we do it here.......
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley S Chappell:
- there seemed to be no non-white people in the training college at all, which strikes me as odd given that non-whites are a major constituent of churchgoers in the UK these days. They did seem to be made up of what I would call the upper or 'respectable' working class (one officer said she had been criticised for being 'middle class'); perhaps that demographic tends to be 'whiter' than others?
Will check it out on iPlayer.
I used to live near the big SA training college in south London, and the people going in and out were noticeably whiter than the demographics of the area it was in.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
One troubling feature of the programme was the number of Cadets who come from died-in-the-wool SA families. Does this mean that these folk "know the jargon" and are thus more likely to be accepted into training? Does it mean that the SA is proving unattractive to outsiders? Does it mean that evangelism is taking a smaller role in the Army than social action? I don't know, but someone might!
Since its early decades of rapid growth, I understand that the British SA has been in constant decline. Consequently, I do sometimes wonder how they manage to pursue their extensive social projects without having to hire non-members to do some of the work. Members must be worked very hard if they have to do it all themselves. (And I've just come across a website that hints at the problems of overwork in the SA....)
Regarding the urban/rural thing, I live in a major city and there are only three SA churches here. There used to be one near me, but it closed quite a while ago and the building was sold.
Attending worship with the SA is one of the things I must do. I look forward to watching this programme.
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anteater
Ship's pest-controller
# 11435
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Posted
I actually found it rather slow, so ended up half-watching, half doing stuff on the PC, so maybe I didn't get it all.
But I was a bit concerned that some of the people going forward had very poor life experiences and seemed a bit as if they were looking for a structured environment in which to feel safe. I'm not sure that this is a good idea, and as a practical proposition I think it would be a lot better if the costs of training were borne by the SA, so they do not have the incentive to get (revenue earning) bums on seats. I feel the same way about a lot of evo colleges. I've met people being trained at Moorlands who from what I could see, were so unsuited to the ministry, that I can't help wondering if they'd be accepted for training if it wasn't bringing in the money.
i'm not suggesting anyone's getting rich on this, it's more about keeping an institution going.
SFAIK Catholics training for the priesthood don't have to find the money but maybe I'm wrong on that.
[ 08. January 2014, 15:06: Message edited by: anteater ]
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Schnuffle schnuffle.
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
Inwas very impressed, despite some things making be cringe, e.g. someone beliefved his grandmother was be in Hell for all eternity. And the slogan 'global warming is as nothing to eternal burning' - made me think of Fred Phelps.
That being said, they seemed a nice bunch, committed.
Re alcohol - one of the 2nd years said he had a sherry with his parents over Christmas but doesn't normally drink - on the basis of the 'weaker brethren' argument.
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Ariel
Shipmate
# 58
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Wesley S Chappell:
- They are much stricter than I thought.
I saw half the documentary and thought they were actually much less strict than I'd expected, much more human and relaxed, though still earnest. It was quite interesting to get an insight into the movement because the stereotype is, as one of them mentioned, brass bands and uniforms - and refreshing to see several of them saying they didn't like the uniforms, and what I saw was less military than I'd expected.
However, I didn't see the rest of the programme so don't know what the outcome was, but it seemed to provide structure for some in need of it. I expect Mudfrog will be along at some point to answer questions on this thread.
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by Wesley S Chappell:
- They are much stricter than I thought. I somehow imagined they were more like Quakers who did a lot of social work, but they had some pretty hardcore evangelical doctrines, including something about salvation being reserved only for those who audibly speak a particular prayer
I've never read Major Mudfrog's posts and thought, "Hmmm...sounds like a progressive Quaker." ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
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Losing sleep is something you want to avoid, if possible.
-Og: King of Bashan
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anteater:
But I was a bit concerned that some of the people going forward had very poor life experiences and seemed a bit as if they were looking for a structured environment in which to feel safe. I'm not sure that this is a good idea, and as a practical proposition I think it would be a lot better if the costs of training were borne by the SA, so they do not have the incentive to get (revenue earning) bums on seats. I feel the same way about a lot of evo colleges. I've met people being trained at Moorlands who from what I could see, were so unsuited to the ministry, that I can't help wondering if they'd be accepted for training if it wasn't bringing in the money.
i'm not suggesting anyone's getting rich on this, it's more about keeping an institution going.
SFAIK Catholics training for the priesthood don't have to find the money but maybe I'm wrong on that.
Interesting.
There's an article by Kenneth Brown in 'Victorian Studies' which highlights the problems of ministerial recruitment in Victorian Nonconformity. It seems as though there were concerns about declining quality and quantity even back then. Many colleges were facing a drop in student numbers, so the inclination to accept the fees of low-quality candidates was ever present. In a society with fewer practising Christians this must be an even bigger problem now.
It's easy to say that the institution should always bear the cost of training, but this assumes that it has the funds to do so. The RCC is a massive, wealthy institution; the smaller Protestant churches aren't. And for many of them, the institution paying for tuition fees = church members bearing the costs out of their own pockets. Brown says many Victorian congregations got fed up of constant requests to support theological colleges.
He also notes that Nonconformist clergy were increasingly 'sons of the manse'. There were pros and cons to this, but if, as BaptistTrainfan says, these folk are overrepresented in SA training, it means they're less likely to reflect the social and cultural environment of their congregations, or among the outsiders they're trying to reach.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
One troubling feature of the programme was the number of Cadets who come from died-in-the-wool SA families. Does this mean that these folk "know the jargon" and are thus more likely to be accepted into training? Does it mean that the SA is proving unattractive to outsiders? Does it mean that evangelism is taking a smaller role in the Army than social action? I don't know, but someone might!
Since its early decades of rapid growth, I understand that the British SA has been in constant decline. Consequently, I do sometimes wonder how they manage to pursue their extensive social projects without having to hire non-members to do some of the work. Members must be worked very hard if they have to do it all themselves. (And I've just come across a website that hints at the problems of overwork in the SA....)
Regarding the urban/rural thing, I live in a major city and there are only three SA churches here. There used to be one near me, but it closed quite a while ago and the building was sold.
Attending worship with the SA is one of the things I must do. I look forward to watching this programme.
I live in an urban area (more than one city in it, hence the mealy-mouthed jargon) with an urban population of 800,000-900,000. To the best of my knowledge there are two, perhaps three, SA centres. I'm pretty sure (e.g., looked at a list of who played in one of the bands some years ago and the players were all late middle aged or older, except for a couple of children of band-members) that the membership is largely hereditary (like that of most main-line churches) and that they lose most of those they raise (again, just like most of the rest of us).
I'm pretty sure that the major social service outlet that bears the SA name has for several years been funded and operated by non-SA organizations and people -- to the point that when I asked someone who attends the SA, they told me that the social service outlet was not in any way connected with the SA any more.
WHat they do is great, they're just not able to do as much of it as they used to. (Just like the rest of us.)
JOhn
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
My church has run a Christmas Hamper programme for years; this year the Salvation Army in town joined our effort. We have the space for organizing in our building, a good secretary and volunteers. They brought some volunteers and contributed food.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
Interesting reading some of your comments.
There's been a lot of facebook controversy amongst us regarding this programme. Some salvationists are 'for' it, others are very upset and astounded.
Let me look at some iof your issues, as I remember them:
White - yes, quite true but cadets come from all over the UK and Ireland, bit just Camberwell - there are black officers and you will have noticed that our territorial Commander (archbishop) - seen at the end at the commissioning and Ordination service - was a black South African.
Middle Class? Maybe, but that reflects just that one person who cam into the SA from outside our ranks and carries on her shopping habits.
Doctrinally strict. well, we have 11 doctrines that are conservative evangelical but the programme was edited to make it sound like 'turn or burn. The little postcard was unfortunate! Many people have been upset buy the 'magic words' comment and how the officer's sister was said by her to be in hell because she didn't say them. That really misrepresents our doctrine.
what else?.....
Yes, we are entirely teetotal and tobacco-free. The comment about a sherry at Christmas was misheard by Leo. The cadet poured one for his mother in law or someone and got the measure wrong because he's never drank before.
Yes, we are declining - along with the rest of you - and many people are from Army families. A lot of social work done by TSA is done by employees.
Ask me what you like...
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I do sometimes wonder how they manage to pursue their extensive social projects without having to hire non-members to do some of the work.
They do hire non-members. One of our (Anglican) church members worked for them as some sort of charity administrator. I'm not sure, but I think he did have to sign up to an evangelical statement of belief (he'd not have had a problem with athat anyway) but he certainly didn't have to worship with them or become a uniformed SA officer (or whatever they call the ones who wear uniforms)
[ 10. January 2014, 19:21: Message edited by: ken ]
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
I do sometimes wonder how they manage to pursue their extensive social projects without having to hire non-members to do some of the work.
They do hire non-members. One of our (Anglican) church members worked for them as some sort of charity administrator. I'm not sure, but I think he did have to sign up to an evangelical statement of belief (he'd not have had a problem with athat anyway) but he certainly didn't have to worship with them or become a uniformed SA officer (or whatever they call the ones who wear uniforms)
We would never make an employee sign up to our evangelical statement of beliefs. they say that they will be in sympathy with the mission and principles of TSA, that kind of thing.
We have atheists as employees, Christians, gay people, anyone who can do the job.
There is a myth that we discriminate in our employment of people but it's entirely false and untrue.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I didn't realise the SA was tobacco-free - is/was Methodism, too? Now people smoke less anyway I guess it's less of an issue, although I think teetotalism always gets viewed with much more suspicion in the UK than in the US. Certainly I can't quite get my head around teetotalism (or indeed being tobacco-free) being a requirement for any Christian denomination, although I understand the social angle more than any theological one. But then given that alcohol is such a part of my own church culture, it would seem strange to me. And it does involve missing out on God's own beverage, gin ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
How much independence do regional branches/churches have? I must say that some things I hear from Mudfrog on here don't line up with what I've been told by other SA members from other areas of the country, and wondered if it was down to particular regional emphases. That doesn't really line up with a denomination that grew out of Methodism and not the Baptists though.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
We would never make an employee sign up to our evangelical statement of beliefs. they say that they will be in sympathy with the mission and principles of TSA, that kind of thing.
We have atheists as employees, Christians, gay people, anyone who can do the job.
I thought so.
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable
I didn't realise the SA was tobacco-free - is/was Methodism, too?
Back in the 80s I knew a Methodist minister who smoked a pipe - at church, too. But it is rare for Methodists to smoke. Methodists are apparently healthy people who tend to live longer than average lives:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/religion/7855002/Methodists-live-more-than-seven-years-longer-than-rest-of-population.html
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
The Methodist Church of Canada was and the United Church of Canada still is teetotal. It's rare to find a United Church that will permit alcohol on its premises. My church forbids it.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
Posts: 7646 | From: Peterborough, Upper Canada | Registered: Jun 2007
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I didn't realise the SA was tobacco-free - is/was Methodism, too? Now people smoke less anyway I guess it's less of an issue, although I think teetotalism always gets viewed with much more suspicion in the UK than in the US. Certainly I can't quite get my head around teetotalism (or indeed being tobacco-free) being a requirement for any Christian denomination, although I understand the social angle more than any theological one. But then given that alcohol is such a part of my own church culture, it would seem strange to me. And it does involve missing out on God's own beverage, gin
How much independence do regional branches/churches have? I must say that some things I hear from Mudfrog on here don't line up with what I've been told by other SA members from other areas of the country, and wondered if it was down to particular regional emphases. That doesn't really line up with a denomination that grew out of Methodism and not the Baptists though.
The SA was tobacco free for officers (ministers) like me, and for 'local officers' (elders) and bandsmen (I think) from the 1800s. The total ban on tobacco didn't come in until 1976.
As far as doctrines and lifestyle, etc, go there are no regional variations. in fact globally there are hardly any variations at all. Same doctrines, same theology. There is no 'liberal wing' of The Salvation Army.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Yes, that fits with my experiences, too, Mudfrog. One of the things I appreciate about the Salvation Army is its clear willingness to engage with poverty on practical levels.
Conservative theology is often incorrectly linked with prosperity-type gospel views and indifference to what is sneered at as the social gospel. While that is true in some settings, I'd never accuse the SA of being infected with those kinds of connections. They get stuck in, often when other Christian denominations do not. There is genuine, practical, compassion.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
If you're in the UK you might like to have a look at this programme.
It features 2 ministers' wives from other denominations and also features a married woman Salvation Army officer. It's a lovely portrayal.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I realise there's no liberal wing But I have been told things by SA officers that are incorrect according to you, Mudfrog. That's why I wondered if there were regional variations like sometimes happens with the CoE and RCC.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I realise there's no liberal wing But I have been told things by SA officers that are incorrect according to you, Mudfrog. That's why I wondered if there were regional variations like sometimes happens with the CoE and RCC.
If there are things you've been told, you can send me a pvt message and I'll try to clarify.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
Because it wouldn't do for differences of opinion between SA members or incorrect beliefs held by an SA member to be played out on a public board? ![[Paranoid]](graemlins/paranoid.gif)
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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Urfshyne
Shipmate
# 17834
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Posted
Could it be that it is not so much a difference of opinion as a difference of personal understanding of the doctrines?
I remember discussing relative doctrines with a Mormon friend. When I told him that those of his church were so strict that they were like a tightrope - one false move and you fell - he replied that mine were so wide that you could drive three buses through them side-by-side.
I understood what he meant.
Posts: 98 | From: Maidenhead - lost | Registered: Sep 2013
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Zoey
Broken idealist
# 11152
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Posted
What I was trying to indicate was that I'm not sure it increases outsiders' understanding of, or sympathy towards, any group to enforce a rule that internal differences must be kept hush-hush. People are heterogeneous, even when they group themselves together by their similarities. Personally, I prefer groups which recognise that fact over groups where any deviance from the agreed norm must be brushed under the carpet and/or clamped down upon with an iron fist.
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Pay no mind, I'm doing fine, I'm breathing on my own.
Posts: 3095 | From: the penultimate stop? | Registered: Mar 2006
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
That's fine - bring the 'differences' out into the open; it's likely however that the inconsistency is by lack of discipline rather than local policy.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Pyx_e
Quixotic Tilter
# 57
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Ask me what you like...
Do you like cake?
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It is better to be Kind than right.
Posts: 9778 | From: The Dark Tower | Registered: May 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Pyx_e:
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
Ask me what you like...
Do you like cake?
Love it. especially the big chocolate ones from Costco. You cannot be a Salvationist if you don't like cake. Or tea.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Back in the day, I knew some evangelicals and charismatics who found the Salvation Army too 'liberal' ...
Mind you, some of these people would have found anyone outside of their own rigid and circumscribed little worlds as too 'liberal' ...
I've not come across any Salvationist officers I'd consider 'liberal' ... but I have come across some people in the pews - or whatever they have instead of pews - who might fit that label to some extent.
Certainly, on certain issues the Army used to appear very liberal. I remember a girl at school who fell pregnant and no other church would marry her and her boyfriend ... and they wanted some kind of church wedding.
The local Salvation Army Citadel was more than pleased to perform the ceremony - even though neither partner was a Salvationist nor had any prior connection with the Army as far as I know. Nor was either of them a regular churchgoer of any kind ... the only overtly religious connection I could see was the bride's mother's residual Catholic faith ...
Hence, I can understand why some people might assume that the Army was quite Quakerish in its approach to some issues.
This was years and years ago now but at that time I was quite impressed by the openness of the Salvation Army in being willing to marry a couple that nobody else seemed prepared to.
Is this part of SA policy?
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Let us with a gladsome mind
Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This was years and years ago now but at that time I was quite impressed by the openness of the Salvation Army in being willing to marry a couple that nobody else seemed prepared to.
Is this part of SA policy?
It's certainly not liberal; rather it's called grace.
No officer is obliged to marry anyone and, for example, in the case of a divorcee an officer must send the decree absolute to the Divisional Commander (Bishop) for permission to marry the couple. however an officer is not duty bound to marry a divorced couple / person if his consciene doesn't allow it.
I dedicated a child once when I heard that a woman had been refused a Christening by her own church minister because the child was illegitimate. Again, WWJD? It was mercy, not liberalism.
Actually we are often criticised for our conservative ethics because we are pro-life and we don't believe that homosexual sexual relations are sanctioned by Scripture or blessed by God.
Oh, I can hear the sharpe intakes of breath!
[ 11. January 2014, 19:32: Message edited by: Mudfrog ]
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
As long as no one starts discussing that view here, (rather than in Dead Horses) Mudfrog, this Host's breathing will remain perfectly normal.
Nobody's perfect. Particularly no visible churchbody.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Mudfrog:
quote:
Originally posted by Gamaliel:
This was years and years ago now but at that time I was quite impressed by the openness of the Salvation Army in being willing to marry a couple that nobody else seemed prepared to.
Is this part of SA policy?
It's certainly not liberal; rather it's called grace.
No officer is obliged to marry anyone and, for example, in the case of a divorcee an officer must send the decree absolute to the Divisional Commander (Bishop) for permission to marry the couple. however an officer is not duty bound to marry a divorced couple / person if his consciene doesn't allow it.
I dedicated a child once when I heard that a woman had been refused a Christening by her own church minister because the child was illegitimate. Again, WWJD? It was mercy, not liberalism.
Actually we are often criticised for our conservative ethics because we are pro-life and we don't believe that homosexual sexual relations are sanctioned by Scripture or blessed by God.
Oh, I can hear the sharpe intakes of breath!
It seems pretty hypocritical to take one stance on heterosexual pre-marital sex (as happened with the pregnant woman getting married) and another on non-heterosexual pre-marital sex (not all LGBTQ people are homosexual). Why do pregnant women deserve grace but not gay people?
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
X-posted with Barnabas62, sorry Barnabas.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
We didn't condone the fact that she'd had the baby out of wedlock - we don't believe in sexual relationships outside of heterosexual marriage - but the focus was on the child. Why should the child be excluded from the church?
Anyway, I don't want to get into a dead horse's paddock.
I only mention it really because people have commented on the strictness of Salvation Army belief and practice but it is undeniable that TSA is basically in line with traditional, orthodox Christian teaching. We are actually very close to Catholicism on a lot of moral and ethical issues.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
OK, Jade. Only an 8 hour x post after all. As long as folks get the message, that's the main thing. A number of DH topics float around when we discuss conservative theologies. Try to navigate nicely.
B62, Purg Host
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
OK, Jade. Only an 8 hour x post after all. As long as folks get the message, that's the main thing. A number of DH topics float around when we discuss conservative theologies. Try to navigate nicely.
B62, Purg Host
Yep sorry, it was my sleepiness and not reading. Apologies.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
No probs, Jade. I know all about early morning sleepiness! Have a good day.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Mudfrog
Shipmate
# 8116
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Posted
THIS is interesting.
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"The point of having an open mind, like having an open mouth, is to close it on something solid."
G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 8237 | From: North Yorkshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2004
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Inwas very impressed, despite some things making be cringe, e.g. someone beliefved his grandmother was be in Hell for all eternity.
I saw this documentary and enjoyed it. I have a thought on this particular issue that I will raise in a separate thread in Purg.
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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