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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: What? No God when it hurts?
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
I posted on the thread about killing oneself or elderly relatives when they/we cease to be visible as persons, then deleted it on the ground that it was insensitive or even irrelevant to mention God in this context.
So, am I alone in thinking it weird no-one even mentions God? Or is it because it would shut the discussion down? (People alive because God wants them alive, end of)
If I don't believe that God has a purpose for all this, and takes people home in his own good time, then why would I struggle on? Kill everyone, end suffering. Live as quietly and unobtrusively as possible, don't have kids, die at first sign of failing strength.
We are all a drain on the world and its resources, we're all going to have a lot of pain. I think that's Buddhism, actually, but I could be wrong.
So this isn't a debate on euthanasia, please, but a discussion on why we avoid God in the discussion. Or maybe no one on that thread believes in God, particularly, which is completely fair enough, watching a beloved parent dement is probably enough to cause a faith crisis in anyone, but then so is the bloody nightmare that is Syria, and the mess in central Africa.
If it's real (Christianity and the worth of all souls, and God's personal knowledge of them) then why isn't it MOST relevant at this most painful and difficult time? And if it's not real, why are some of us praying and attending church and so forth?
This time is nearly upon us for both my husband and myself... parents increasingly frail and crisis brewing for one of them. (her partner dead long ago) And this issue of God may become relevant, especially as my husband is not only 'not a believer' but actively antagonistic. Interestingly, he's far more genuinely compassionate, but I digress.
[ 11. January 2014, 18:58: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
I dearly hope God doesn't control who lives and who dies - s/he'd be incredibly capricious and arbitrary about it if s/he did.
There is no way that a loving God who controlled the time when people die would have kept my Mum 'alive' for the past six years. No way.
So my choice is that God isn't loving or that God doesn't control such details.
I believe that God put the mechanisms of life/living/nature/DNA/death etc in place and holds it all together - but gave it, and us, freedom to evolve/live/die/make mistakes/rebuild/renew/start again etc.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Your call about the post, Taliesin, but I think this belongs absolutely to deano's thread. And so I don't think there is a need for a separate thread on practical, moral and spiritual implications of euthanasia.
As a Host, my normal action would be to close this thread as a separate topic and copy your post across. Clearly I can't do that without violating your own reasons for not posting.
Would you like to have a rethink, maybe send me a PM. My reasons for not wanting to go down the voluntary euthanasia road are indeed connected strongly with my belief in God. But deano is also a Christian, based on things he's said in his posts. So I think the issue of how faith affects this dilemma is very relevant, not at all insensitive.
Note that I am, deliberately, not using my Host tags. This post is not a ruling. I look forward to hearing from you.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
I think there's an interesting question about whether or not God, or belief in God, is an additional argument in the euthanasia question and in every other moral question. Is God a factor alongside personal, human and social factors, or does faith give us another way of talking about personal, human and social factors. I think the latter.
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My crazy theology in novel form
Posts: 4531 | From: Stinkers | Registered: Sep 2002
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Smudgie
Ship's Barnacle
# 2716
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Posted
I think I get where Taleisin is coming from - please correct me if I'm wrong. But the discussion isn't whether God controls when we die but rather why do we avoid talking about God when discussing matters like that.... why, for people of faith, are there certain topics which we discuss on a basis which does not encompass some degree of that faith.
I'm trying to think whether there are other topics which we might discuss where we might choose (consciously or subconsciously) to leave the God-aspect out of the conversation.
I would probably do so if it were an emotive topic and I was talking with people for whom mentioning the Godly perspective would be inflammatory in a way that distracted from the discussion in hand or people for whom it would be disrespectful because it would just turn the conversation to something me-based. Though on a website devoted to Christian Unrest, that shouldn't stop me, I guess. It does, though - and I think that's mostly out of respect for the views of others in discussing a difficutl topic. So, for example, when my father was suffering from terminal cancer, I did lots of thinking and praying and talking and questioning with God and with people of faith I knew well, but not with my siblings who have no faith and were discussing the same things but from a completely secular perspective.
(I may not have expressed myself very clearly there.... mainly because I am trying to fathom it out for myself!)
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Miss you, Erin.
Posts: 14382 | From: Under the duvet | Registered: Apr 2002
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Barnabas62
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# 9110
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Posted
That's helpful, Smudgie, as was hatless's comment. I'll think things over, too.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Yes, Smudgie, totally spot on. For me to even mention God to my husband would be inflammatory- especially with regard to his mother and the timing and circumstance of her illness.
But I have a friend whose mother died last year, and she's been a shining example of Christian inspiration, it would be weird for God to not be in the conversation. In her circumstances, I'd have been cursing God or becoming a disillusioned atheist overnight, so her faith every step of the way has been amazing.
So, the discussion here is maybe about when is it appropriate, and why is it sometimes inappropriate... I can't offer my opinion on euthanasia in the same way I can't offer an opinion on abortion. Thank God, it's never been something I had to seriously consider.
Maybe I'd hate anyone who mentioned God if I had a parent who doesn't know who I am, or a seemingly endless caring situation on my hands. Maybe it just feels irrelevant. I don't want to question people's belief, just expressing a question about why it hasn't come up among people who feel able to talk about euthanasia on a Christian website.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Would you mind me changing the title, Taliesin? Something like "Talking about God in painful and sensitive situations"? I agree that's a separate topic and deserves a thread, but the current title is a bit obscure.
[ 11. January 2014, 10:11: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Taliesin,
I think it is a profoundly difficult thing to match the real suffering with a purportedly all-loving God. Difficult even when not experiencing pain. When someone is watching a loved one suffer, that discussion, or even mentioning God, could cause more pain than it relieves.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Porridge
Shipmate
# 15405
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Posted
There are also many of us who (A) don't believe in god, regardless of that god's alleged nature; and/or (B) don't believe that death, at least insofar as its timing and character are concerned, is primarily the result of god's agency.
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Spiggott: Everything I've ever told you is a lie, including that.
Moon: Including what?
Spiggott: That everything I've ever told you is a lie.
Moon: That's not true!
Posts: 3925 | From: Upper right corner | Registered: Jan 2010
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
Well, yes.
Mentioning God to a non-believer is just stupid and B type Christians vs. "Everything is God's will" vs. those in-between are part of the difficult I was alluding to.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
Maybe I'd hate anyone who mentioned God if I had a parent who doesn't know who I am, or a seemingly endless caring situation on my hands.
My Mum, after the dementia began but before she lost all her faculties, was happiest in Church. Maybe the ritual and routine or maybe the hymns soothed her. But maybe she also felt closer to God there. She has been a Christian all her life and totally trusting of God in all circumstances. She supported my Dad's ministry wholeheartedly for over fifty years. I hope God is there for her too in these painful, shut out times.
Personally I would find it hard to cope if someone said (or hinted) that my Mum's condition is 'God's will'. It so very plainly isn't! But if they say 'God bless you' or 'God be with you' to me or her, then there's no harm whatever.
imo
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Lamb Chopped
Ship's kebab
# 5528
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Posted
I did think about posting to that thread (and may yet) but what stopped me was the observation that so many of those posting were not believers or else people having doubts, and I figured that anything i said about God would have to be very very carefully phrased indeed to avoid causing them extra pain and offense. Maybe when i can get to a proper computer and have an hour ...
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Er, this is what I've been up to (book).
Oh, that you would rend the heavens and come down!
Posts: 20059 | From: off in left field somewhere | Registered: Feb 2004
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
yes, Barnabas, please change the title if you think that helps. But I think it's more of a 'what no God?' sort of thread than a serious desire to question how to bring up God sensitively. I don't mention God first in any context, I'm not brave/committed/mad enough. I can't get beyond looking at Syria and especially that terrible place in Africa where the Christian communities are being systematically terrorised and killed at the moment, and thinking where the hell is God? And how does this square with the OT reading so beloved of churches in the psalms, about each person so wonderfully made? Or the idea that God always answers prayers, he just says 'not yet' a lot?
And, I perceive this as a place where I can come with my doubt and questions and get some good calm thoughts and help and general wisdom, so it seemed odd god was left out of such a fundamental topic. If nothing else, I would hesitate to take/end any life under any circumstances if I have any faith in a supreme being at all, it seems kind of basic. For me to take another person's life will mean I've acknowledged that God was never real,a fantasy for the easy times, and the reality is that I am the only God I'm ever going to have.
Which feels desolate.
[ 11. January 2014, 17:41: Message edited by: Taliesin ]
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
That's great, Taliesin. I'm off to change it to
"What? No God when it hurts?"
That seems pretty much on the money as a thread title.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
We might have our own views on the theodicy question, but we're also likely to know how many different ideas there are, and none of them satisfactory. Better to say nothing unless we're able to freely discuss it with others who are unlikely to be offended, and who understand that it's not an attempt to justify suffering but an attempt to see where God fits into it, eg in a peer group, imv.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
If you can't expect people to not be offended if you mention God on a Christian website, where can you reasonably mention God?
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Speaking for myself I find that the explicitly Christian arguments against Euthanasia are less compelling than the secular ones (slipperly slope, the importance of palliative care, next of kin putting pressure on loved ones so as to bank the inheritance, fundamental changes to relationship between doctors and patients and so forth).
The religious arguments always seem to boil down to the terminally ill having to man up and take it on the chin for the baby Jesus which always strike me as being akin to a newspaper columnist, who is in no danger of being called up, writing an open letter to our boys at the front circa 1916.
If the whole field of Christian ethics had this sort of effect on me I'd be seriously concerned, but AFAICS it's only Euthanasia.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I just posted about my grandma basically committing suicide. The reason it doesn't bother me in any God sense is because I don't think the end of this life is a tragedy for the one who dies.
Prolongation of this life is a genuine value, but not the primary one, or all those martyrs were wrong, they should have said or done whatever brief word or action would have saved their lives. "Hey God, you know I had an obligation to choose life, that's why I denied you."
We need to think why we are interrupting a natural God-invented death process - for holy reasons? Or for some excessively materialistic view of reality and purpose? Even feeding tubes are a prolonging measure.
I'm not saying let nature rule, but neither should prolonging this life as long as possible be the primary goal. There's a bigger picture than this life and we need to learn to see each situation from that bigger perspective even while valuing this life.
To live is Christ to die is gain. How long we can cling to this planet - or force someone else to stay here - is not what God-awareness is all about!
I am far more afraid of being warehoused here in pain and pointlessness a few extras years than I am afraid of dying a few years early. I've got lots I want to do, more than there is time - but if it's cut short, that's just a change of direction, not a tragedy.
Posts: 5830 | From: Texas | Registered: Jan 2008
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Raptor Eye
Shipmate
# 16649
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
If you can't expect people to not be offended if you mention God on a Christian website, where can you reasonably mention God?
It's not the mere mention of God which may offend, but how God is being portrayed to people who are hurting. As I said, no theodicy is satisfactory. Even if those in pain are Christians themselves, a view as to how God operates (for want of a better word) which is at variance with their own may not be pastorally helpful, and may exacerbate an already excruciating faith dilemma.
One example is the idea that God 'calls someone home.' This might be the way an elderly person sees it, but it may not be helpful at all to his grandchild who will miss him, or to a parent whose son has died in an accident.
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Be still, and know that I am God! Psalm 46.10
Posts: 4359 | From: The United Kingdom | Registered: Sep 2011
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Speaking for myself I find that the explicitly Christian arguments against Euthanasia are less compelling than the secular ones (slipperly slope, the importance of palliative care, next of kin putting pressure on loved ones so as to bank the inheritance, fundamental changes to relationship between doctors and patients and so forth).
The religious arguments always seem to boil down to the terminally ill having to man up and take it on the chin for the baby Jesus which always strike me as being akin to a newspaper columnist, who is in no danger of being called up, writing an open letter to our boys at the front circa 1916.
If the whole field of Christian ethics had this sort of effect on me I'd be seriously concerned, but AFAICS it's only Euthanasia.
Considering that in the UK most churchgoers are older than the wider population I think it's odd that the churches seem to give very little attention to the ethics of euthanasia. If Christianity is inadequate to the task then perhaps it's for the best that our clergy just avoid it. But death isn't a little side issue, it's a pretty major thing.
The message here seems to be that (in western culture) dealing with the painful end of long lives isn't really God's speciality....
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Yes. I'd be against euthanasia (as much as I can be when no one I love is enduring painful or hopeless decline) for purely secular reasons, and, if I'm a Christian how could I consider it.
Interestingly, to try to put all Christians in the same bag- to say, well, if they said this stupid and insensitive thing, or that simplistic and formulaic thing, that would be bad -is the same as trying to judge people by culture or class. Those qualities aren't exclusively Christian! If I'm an intelligent and insightful Christian I'm likely to say reasonably appropriate and thoughtful things about God. If I'm thoughtless and formulaic, maybe I'll say something insensitive. Atheists sometimes spout thoughtless cliches too...
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
For those of us who, for various reasons and experience, find that God observes but disdains any intervention, and may in fact render judgement on our conduct (though I suspect not with any severity), it is incumbent on us to do ths right thing, which is about the wishes and condition of the ill and dying person, but is also incredibly impactful on the survivors.
I think it is a burden to be borne, to stressfully wait, care and agonize for the terminally ill and dying. And it just has got to be borne. But then I am biased about this; I have done the death watch 4 times in real life this way, and I suppose justifying one's conduct influences.
Edit :doing this on a plastic rectangle know as a not so smart phone.
[ 12. January 2014, 04:19: Message edited by: no prophet ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Taliesin
I keep thinking of the phrase "other-directed". Mrs B62 and I have walked this walk with others more than a few times (both individually and as a couple). Every situation was unique, but if there was any kind of common thread it was "don't bring any agenda of your own." Let folks who are facing death, or extreme loss of any kind, something they don't know how to handle, try to articulate their own agenda, if they've got one, and go with that. Otherwise, I guess you try to, somehow, be there for them.
Is God there in that? We've always felt He has been. Often in strange and unexpected ways. Certainly we've felt He was with us. In the avoidance of the trite word, the inappropriate gesture, the forced conversation.
What the other directedness seemed to chime with, seems to me, has probably been summed up better by Kris Kristofferson than anyone else.
"Come and lay down by my side till the early morning light
All I'm takin' is your time. Help me make it through the night.
I don't care what's right or wrong, I won't try to understand.
Let the devil take tomorrow Lord tonight I need a friend.
Yesterday is dead and gone and tomorrow's out of sight
And it's sad to be alone. Help me make it through the night."
There is an agape love in responding to that. The love that does not insist on its own way. Of course that does not give you much of a clue about how and what to do or say. When just to listen is enough, Or keep quiet. Or hold a hand that gets stretched out. It's strange territory. We stumble through it, somehow, with the help of God. Do a lot of praying. It is a rare privilege. An honour to be invited in.
[ 12. January 2014, 05:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Taliesin
Shipmate
# 14017
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Posted
Beautiful, Barnabas. And what it sums up for me is this board, bizarrely enough. I have a friend who has been very ill, feels isolated at home, and I'm trying to introduce her to the idea of internet communities. I assumed there would be other places like this, for people uninterested in Christian unrest from any angle.
I searched every way I could think of, and there is nothing I could point an internet innocent at. Only here are there people who take turns in watching through the night, keeping the space safe. Only here are there hosts and admins and kindly random people who stop and say hello for no reason or reward, even when a person has nothing interesting to say beyond 'I'm here now'. Why do you all do it?
I imagine it has a fair bit to do with ideas of love and community first preached a while ago.
I love this place.
Posts: 2138 | From: South, UK | Registered: Aug 2008
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
There Barnabas62. He's there in the song.
Piety that doesn't meet us in our ravening humanity is self deceiving, self comforting vanity.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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quetzalcoatl
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# 16740
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Posted
The title is now fascinating - no God when it hurts. I was thinking of a friend of mine who was in hospital for months, after falling off a ladder. He is quite a spiritual type, although not a Christian, but he told me that while lying there, waiting for his vertebrae to heal again, or whatever, he hadn't the slightest interest in spirituality, meditation, God, or the like. He was more concerned with his desperate constipation.
I'm sure this is not universal; and there are probably people who are in great pain, who are God-intoxicated and so on.
So there are no general conclusions, which I can extract from this! This is excellent.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Scarlet
Mellon Collie
# 1738
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Taliesin:
<snip> so it seemed odd god was left out of such a fundamental topic. If nothing else, I would hesitate to take/end any life under any circumstances if I have any faith in a supreme being at all, it seems kind of basic. For me to take another person's life will mean I've acknowledged that God was never real,a fantasy for the easy times, and the reality is that I am the only God I'm ever going to have.
But this is exactly why I have to not consider God while I am planning to hasten my end. What you describe as basic faith is way beyond the pale for me now. I no longer care about if God is real, or a fantasy. It cannot affect me, since my suffering overrides any belief I might have had. Think of the worst pain or agony you have endured. Were you thinking of Sunday school lessons or just having the pain stop?
My mother died of suicide more than 30 years ago. Perhaps she had found out she was facing the same terrible end I am. I was actively Christian at the time, and I drove myself crazy with agony over whether she was in Heaven, did God consider it murder, was she still "saved" even if she had lost her mind?
I now believe God to be someone who will not allow me to quit breathing nor stop my heart. I believe the Universe runs itself and the same is true for me. I am ticking and cannot stop the clock before fate does so. God does not answer prayers nor alleviate suffering. I must take matters into my own hands. I still believe I will face God's inquisition but oh well, whatever, nevermind.
A chemist who died of suicide left behind this note: This is my last experiment. If there is any eternal torment worse than mine I'll have to be shown."
My sentiments exactly.
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They took from their surroundings what was needed... and made of it something more.
—dialogue from Primer
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Thanks Scarlet. That hit me right between the eyes. I hope you have companions in your life you can trust.
[ETA. We have some sensitive guidelines re public discussion in distressing personal situations. I'm going to take advice from other Hosts (particularly in AS) and Admin about further specific discussion at this point. Please bear with us.]
[ 12. January 2014, 14:55: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Scarlet ![[Votive]](graemlins/votive.gif) I do and DON'T want to encourage you if you get my drift: there will be NO inquisition. Only full embrace and transcendence with your mother and all of us. God is helplessly yearning with and for you as any crucifix says. He completely understands with NO condemnation at all. For what?
See you soon enough.
Martin
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
hosting/
Please refrain from public posting in response to Scarlet's disclosure of personal information until a more definitive host/admin ruling.
Please bear with us in this.
/hosting
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Over the course of the Ship’s existence, our experience is that interacting on a public forum like Ship of Fools with regard to a poster’s expressed intention to take their own life is no real help to anybody, first and foremost the person in question. These situations are too sensitive, and too unique, for that. So please do not engage in any further discussion of the specific situation Scarlet has detailed.
Scarlet, we do want to reassure you that this is not an attempt to minimise your circumstances or dismiss the matter as taboo or unimportant. Rather, our view is that your personal life-or-death situation in this respect is too important for a public discussion, over which there can only be limited control. Really difficult life challenges are, for the most part, best helped by folks we know well and can trust a lot. We continue to encourage you to seek the very best medical and personal support on your most difficult journey.
Everyone else, please be sensible and sensitive in how you respond to the more general questions which touch closely on Scarlet’s situation. We’ll be watching the thread carefully on this point.
This is very much a joint ruling by Purgatory Hosts and we've considered a lot of issues in putting it together. As always, it is open to further discussion in the Styx.
Barnabas62
Purgatory Host
[superfluous "to" deleted]
[ 12. January 2014, 21:02: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Boogie:
My Mum, after the dementia began but before she lost all her faculties, was happiest in Church. Maybe the ritual and routine or maybe the hymns soothed her. But maybe she also felt closer to God there. She has been a Christian all her life and totally trusting of God in all circumstances. She supported my Dad's ministry wholeheartedly for over fifty years. I hope God is there for her too in these painful, shut out times.
That last sentence is excellent Boogie. I recall the last half dozen years of my FIL when our communication with him became more limited each week. After about 6 months, his speech had gone and not long after, he gave no indication of understanding us. Then the recognition faded, even a simple recognition that someone had come into his room. Eventually there was no response to a gentle holding of hands or stroking even by my MIL.
But all that was only our perception of what had happened. We have no idea if he had another and was in his turn frustrated by our inability to respond to him. And of course, we none of us knows the extent to which God was truly with him in that time.
[ 12. January 2014, 21:02: Message edited by: Gee D ]
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Huia
Shipmate
# 3473
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
But all that was only our perception of what had happened. We have no idea if he had another and was in his turn frustrated by our inability to respond to him. And of course, we none of us knows the extent to which God was truly with him in that time.
When my Dad was hours away from dying he didn't seem to be responding to anything, then my sister-in-law changed to Cd of his favourite music that was playing and he made a loud noise in protest. So he was still in there somewhere, enjoying his music.
Huia
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Charity gives food from the table, Justice gives a place at the table.
Posts: 10382 | From: Te Wai Pounamu | Registered: Oct 2002
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que sais-je
Shipmate
# 17185
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Posted
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Originally posted by Taliesin:
If I don't believe that God has a purpose for all this, and takes people home in his own good time, then why would I struggle on? Kill everyone, end suffering. Live as quietly and unobtrusively as possible, don't have kids, die at first sign of failing strength.
This is too black and white. Why live "quietly and unobtrusively as possible"? Life can be enjoyed, it can be worth having for it's own sake and maybe you can contribute to other lives being happier. I don't belief my life has any purpose but I still enjoy it.
And though I'm not very old, there are already things I can't do as well as I used to, so maybe my strength is failing. On the other hand there are things I can do and appreciate now I couldn't have when I was twenty.
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We are all a drain on the world and its resources.
Without people there would be no concept of 'resources'. And we can give back as well as get.
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.. we're all going to have a lot of pain. I think that's Buddhism, actually, but I could be wrong.
The Buddha asks people to be realistic: you will grow old, suffer, die. So? Don't entertain unrealistic expectations, enjoy life knowing it isn't for ever. A corny Buddhist proverb: the only way to hold onto anything is with an open hand. I'm sure lots of shipmates could offer equivalents from other traditions.
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"controversies, disputes, and argumentations, both in philosophy and in divinity, if they meet with discreet and peaceable natures, do not infringe the laws of charity" (Thomas Browne)
Posts: 794 | From: here or there | Registered: Jun 2012
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Huia:
When my Dad was hours away from dying he didn't seem to be responding to anything, then my sister-in-law changed to Cd of his favourite music that was playing and he made a loud noise in protest. So he was still in there somewhere, enjoying his music.
Yes.
They are wonderful at Mum's home. They do everything. Lots of decorations for all seasons, including haloween! They had an Elvis impersonator at the Christmas party! Even 'tho they get little back from many of the clients they really do treat them as if they simply can't respond - not as if there is 'no one home'.
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
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Originally posted by SvitlanaV2:
quote:
Originally posted by Gildas:
Speaking for myself I find that the explicitly Christian arguments against Euthanasia are less compelling than the secular ones (slipperly slope, the importance of palliative care, next of kin putting pressure on loved ones so as to bank the inheritance, fundamental changes to relationship between doctors and patients and so forth).
The religious arguments always seem to boil down to the terminally ill having to man up and take it on the chin for the baby Jesus which always strike me as being akin to a newspaper columnist, who is in no danger of being called up, writing an open letter to our boys at the front circa 1916.
If the whole field of Christian ethics had this sort of effect on me I'd be seriously concerned, but AFAICS it's only Euthanasia.
Considering that in the UK most churchgoers are older than the wider population I think it's odd that the churches seem to give very little attention to the ethics of euthanasia. If Christianity is inadequate to the task then perhaps it's for the best that our clergy just avoid it. But death isn't a little side issue, it's a pretty major thing.
The message here seems to be that (in western culture) dealing with the painful end of long lives isn't really God's speciality....
I think you might have saved yourself some time if you had noticed the words "speaking for myself".
The average age of a Church of England congregation is 61. If people can drag themselves to church they we are probably not yet in the "lethal injection" stage of things. In any event it is, presumably, a more pressing question for UKIP and the Conservative Party and, indeed, the Rolling Stones (average age 69). Although based on last years Glasto the people who ought to be asking themselves the difficult question are Chase and Status. What can I say guys? It's no problem for me. But it's a problem for you.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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SvitlanaV2
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# 16967
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Posted
I do realise that your comments were personal, but my response was more focused on the churches than on your deepest feelings.
Churchgoers are indeed statistically older than the general British population, and in some denominations and congregations this is especially noticeable. But even in congregations with very many elderly members/attenders, there seems to be little focus on end of life challenges. I think this is a valid point for me to make, although it doesn't mean I think every 61+ year old needs to be grimly fixated on death. It's more a matter of people sharing their wisdom and their experience with each other, and thinking about the future because it's a good idea to do so.
[ 13. January 2014, 20:48: Message edited by: SvitlanaV2 ]
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
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Posted
Just because we don't talk about God in certain circumstances, it doesn't mean that He isn't there. In fact, I'd like to hazard a guess that at the times when words to talk about God are the hardest are the times when he is MOST there.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Chorister
Completely Frocked
# 473
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Posted
re. Svitlana's comment, there does seem to be a worrying emphasis in churches these days on the young. Which is all well and good up to a point - the church does need to look to the future as well. But, given the numbers of older people looking to the church for guidance, some time spent on the theology of ageing and dying wouldn't do any harm.
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Retired, sitting back and watching others for a change.
Posts: 34626 | From: Cream Tealand | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Chorister:
.. some time spent on the theology of ageing and dying wouldn't do any harm.
From your keyboard to my heart. I think it connects directly with how we understand loss.
Want to think about that awhile; may post again.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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