Source: (consider it)
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Thread: "Say the magic words" for salvation
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Absolutely to all the 'wind blows where it listeth' contributions ...
The thing is, even the most apparently 'water-tight' conversion stories don't entirely hold water ... they all leak.
Mudfrog might not agree, but a close reading of Wesley's Journal, for instance, shows that his famous 'Aldersgate Experience' - 'my heart was strangely warmed' - doesn't quite fit as snugly with subsequent Wesleyan and evangelical formulae as to to how this sort of thing is 'supposed' to happen ...
That's how Wesley can appeal to sacramentalists and evangelicals alike - because you can find evidence in his writings to fit all schemas ... and none ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
I knew a pastor who baptized people using two wording formulas "in the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit" because some groups insist it has to be "Jesus only" or has to be "F S HG" and reject the validity of baptism under the "wrong" formula.
A local church welcomes "all baptized Christians" to the table, which means they reject many SA folks and accept my atheist friends who were baptized as babies.
Some of the magic formulas probably come from simple human misunderstanding - one person directs another "baptize them in the name of Jesus" intending to convey a concept, but someone else hears it as a specific formula to stick to, and the formula becomes doctrine "to make sure we are doing it right."
Or someone wants to assure his worried friend "yes you are saved and going to heaven, relax" and an easy reassurance is point to a simple action - "you were baptized" or "you said the sinners prayer, remember?"
The problem is any of these magic formulas point us to what *we* have done instead of to what God has done, so they are distracting us from Truth. We are supposed to be relying on God's character, not on our actions, not on the behaviors or words of other human beings (baptizing us using the "right" formula).
Another magic formula in some churches is confession (to God). I heard a sermon illustration that if you smoke a cigarette while driving and a car crash kills you and you didn't have time to repent that cigarette sin you go to hell.
Magic formulas abound. Bet we could make a long list!
God is bigger than any of our formulas.
It's about who God is, not who we are or what we have said or done.
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EtymologicalEvangelical
Shipmate
# 15091
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Posted
Belle Ringer -
The phrase "Christianised paganism" comes to mind...
-------------------- You can argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome': but you neither can nor need argue with a man who says, 'Rice is unwholesome, but I'm not saying this is true'. CS Lewis
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balaam
 Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: The problem is any of these magic formulas point us to what *we* have done instead of to what God has done, so they are distracting us from Truth. We are supposed to be relying on God's character, not on our actions, not on the behaviors or words of other human beings (baptizing us using the "right" formula).
...
It's about who God is, not who we are or what we have said or done.
I have an inner Calvinist who says "Amen" to all of this. I can never really shake him off.
But what of those who are not Calvinist? Is their formula not effective for some too?
-------------------- Last ever sig ...
blog
Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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Belle Ringer
Shipmate
# 13379
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by balaam: quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: The problem is any of these magic formulas point us to what *we* have done instead of to what God has done, so they are distracting us from Truth. We are supposed to be relying on God's character, not on our actions, not on the behaviors or words of other human beings (baptizing us using the "right" formula).
...
It's about who God is, not who we are or what we have said or done.
I have an inner Calvinist who says "Amen" to all of this. I can never really shake him off.
But what of those who are not Calvinist? Is their formula not effective for some too?
LOL I don't know much about Calvin. I'm definitely not into selective predestination, but some say neither was he. But our formulas, those I've heard anyway, are exclusive, leave out some definitely interested people! God is bigger than our formulas.
I think focusing on "God is love, love never ends" is more assuring, more relaxing, more secure, than focusing on what some flawed human did or maybe didn't do right. "They say I was baptized as a baby but did they do it right or did someone miss a word and I wasn't really baptized in God's eyes?"
But then, the older I get the closer to universalist I become.
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by seekingsister:
I don't know if this is an SA-specific belief or not. But I am confused by the idea that just saying "Jesus please save me, I believe in you" in the last moments before death is sufficient for salvation. This doesn't seem to line up with a more orthodox view of Christianity that involves baptism, repentance, and loving God and one's neighbor.
There is of course the thief on the Cross, but I've heard many times that as Jesus had not yet died and risen at that point, the promise of Paradise to the unbaptized thief is not something that carried over into the new covenant.
Jesus had the power to speak sins forgiven while he was on earth, Luke 5:17-25.
On Pentecost Peter taught repentance and baptism, Acts 2:38.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Yes, Mere Nick, but neither of those necessitate any 'formula' for how we appropriate these things.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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LutheranChik
Shipmate
# 9826
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Posted
quote: he problem is any of these magic formulas point us to what *we* have done instead of to what God has done, so they are distracting us from Truth. We are supposed to be relying on God's character, not on our actions, not on the behaviors or words of other human beings (baptizing us using the "right" formula).
...
It's about who God is, not who we are or what we have said or done. I have an inner Calvinist who says "Amen" to all of this. I can never really shake him off.
That's also at the heart of Lutheran theology. It's not about what we presume to do for God, but what God has done and is doing for us.
-------------------- Simul iustus et peccator http://www.lutheranchiklworddiary.blogspot.com
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Mere Nick
Shipmate
# 11827
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: Yes, Mere Nick, but neither of those necessitate any 'formula' for how we appropriate these things.
What formula for getting what things? In lieu of me rambling on, could you first tell me what you think I'm getting at and then what you are getting at? I guess what I'm saying is, in short, I agree with what appears to me as the gist of the OP.
-------------------- "Well that's it, boys. I've been redeemed. The preacher's done warshed away all my sins and transgressions. It's the straight and narrow from here on out, and heaven everlasting's my reward." Delmar O'Donnell
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Probably, Mere Nick.
I was simply stating something in response to your post - that however we understand Christ 'speaking forgiveness of sins' or Peter's Pentecost sermon about repentance and faith - with baptism ... they shouldn't be reduced to a formulaic response - whether in sacramental terms or a particular kind of evangelical 'Just say this prayer after me and you'll be saved ...' kind of way.
Which is probably what you were agreeing with any way ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
During my time time in evangelical/ charismatic circles, on more than one occasion I was asked for my "testimony" and some people had a big problem with the fact that I couldn't point to a "defining moment" when I had "chosen Christ/ prayed the prayer". Growing up in a catholic environment,it just wasn't how I had understood faith or my relationship with God. And it still isn't.
Now I know quite a few people from a variety of church traditions who have had Damascus road conversions but I also know lots of others who have simply grown up in the faith. Some them are evangelicals who have "prayed the prayer" again and again from a place of anxiety that were somehow not "in". On reflection, I wonder if some of them then embraced charismatic experience in part because it fulfilled the need for these defining moments.
There are surely a myriad of ways in which we can respond to the grace of God. My understanding of salvation is that it is a process, a lifelong interaction with the saving grace of God.
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Enoch - the Southern Poverty Law Centre is well-known. I'm also puzzled by the idea that I should only care about things that affect me personally. Why shouldn't I care about hate speech that happened elsewhere?
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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mousethief
 Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Jade Constable: Enoch - the Southern Poverty Law Centre is well-known. I'm also puzzled by the idea that I should only care about things that affect me personally. Why shouldn't I care about hate speech that happened elsewhere?
Indeed, aren't we supposed to care about what happens to other people? "Love thy neighbor" and "do unto others" and all that? Or is that some other religion?
-------------------- This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Siegfried
Ship's ferret
# 29
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Posted
Saying the "sinners prayer" (which was how I always heard the magic words called) was, and as I understand, still is the big finale of any revival meeting. Usually with some altar call hymn such as "Just as I Am" droning endlessly on in the background. I always worried about the folks who felt compelled by group dynamics or even an actual stirring in their hearts to go forward and say the prayer, only to never follow up with words. Unfortunately, there are many preachers and evangelists who don't follow-up with their converts.
-------------------- Siegfried Life is just a bowl of cherries!
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Moo
 Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by MrsBeaky: Now I know quite a few people from a variety of church traditions who have had Damascus road conversions but I also know lots of others who have simply grown up in the faith.
There are still others who grew up without exposure to religion and gradually came to accept Christianity as adults.
There is a saying that I heard here on the ship, "Some people meet Christ on the road to Damascus and others meet him on the road to Emmaus."
Moo
-------------------- Kerygmania host --------------------- See you later, alligator.
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Yes, you're right, Moo I know people like that too.
And thank you for that saying, I'd never heard it before and I really like it.
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Sorry I'm coming to this thread late (I'm a new shipmate), but as a fellow SA Major to Mudfrog, I've never known a requirement that certain words are necessary in order to be saved. Have I missed something in SA training, and subsequent study?? Although I found the programme 'God's Cadets' fascinating. Loved the uncertainty of some of the officers- we're not all filled with absolute certainty all the time...are we?
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Majorminor, welcome to the Ship!
Please take time to check out the Ship's Ten Commandments and posting Guidelines, and maybe pop over and say hi on the Welcome Aboard 2014 thread in All Saints.
There have certainly been Ship bell-ringers' meets in the past. Perhaps we could get a Ship's Sally Army band going...?
Eutychus
Purgatory host
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Majorminor
Apprentice
# 17967
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Posted
Why, thank you, Eutychus.
Umm...yes, there seems to be at least two of us Salvos here now, but...whisper this quietly...I don't like bands
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Jammy Dodger
 Half jam, half biscuit
# 17872
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Moo:
There is a saying that I heard here on the ship, "Some people meet Christ on the road to Damascus and others meet him on the road to Emmaus."
Thanks for this Moo. Like Mrs Beaky and Gamaliel I'd not heard this before but I agree with them it is great - perfect combination of succinct and expressive
-------------------- Look at my eye twitching - Donkey from Shrek
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Majorminor - welcome aboard. Good to have another Salvationist around to give Mudfrog moral support -not that he needs it necessarily, he can fight his corner and stand his ground ...
I don't think anyone here is suggesting that there's ever been an exact 'form of words' that are used by the Salvation Army or anyone else when leading people to salvation - in evangelical/conversionist terms.
That said, it can become rather formulaic at certain revivalist rallies and there is also the danger of 'easy-believism' - simply say this prayer and you're saved ...
As Mudfrog and others have said, other traditions have their equivalents that can equally be misunderstood or misrepresented - 'simply say 3 Hail Mary's and 5 Our Fathers ...' etc.
I think it's the assumption that the Gospel can be reduced to a simple series of propositions and our response codified into a set series of easy-peasy convenient fastfood steps that is causing the problem.
We all know that neither the Salvation Army nor any other evangelical church or evangelistic agency sees things in such terms - but it's understandable how and why people might get such an impression from seeing certain evangelicals in action.
I've not seen how the 'mercy seat' and so on operates in Salvationist circles so I can't comment on that, but I've certainly seen more than my fair share of fairly cack-handed 'altar calls' and so on in my time ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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John D. Ward
Shipmate
# 1378
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Belle Ringer: I knew a pastor who baptized people using two wording formulas "in the name of Jesus, in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit" because some groups insist it has to be "Jesus only" or has to be "F S HG" and reject the validity of baptism under the "wrong" formula.
My criticism of this form of words is not that the two formulas are inconsistent, or that the combination is heretical, but that it is confusing.
I would ask the pastor if it obscures the essential Christian truth that Jesus of Nazareth was and is the incarnate Son of God.
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HughWillRidmee
Shipmate
# 15614
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by seekingsister: I watched the BBC documentary "God's Cadet's" and was struck by comments made by two SA members who had relatives pass away without becoming Christians - both were struggling with the thought of their loved ones in hell.
They both said something to effect of "If only they'd said the 'magic words' about wanting to be saved by Jesus, they'd be in heaven." The woman said that someone told her, perhaps her sister thought the words in her head before she died.
I don't know if this is an SA-specific belief or not. But I am confused by the idea that just saying "Jesus please save me, I believe in you" in the last moments before death is sufficient for salvation. This doesn't seem to line up with a more orthodox view of Christianity that involves baptism, repentance, and loving God and one's neighbor.
There is of course the thief on the Cross, but I've heard many times that as Jesus had not yet died and risen at that point, the promise of Paradise to the unbaptized thief is not something that carried over into the new covenant.
Is this something other Shippers have come across, and if so do you think it is a valid position with any support from tradition or scripture?
If you've not done so reading the Wikipedia entry "Sinner's prayer" may give some background
-------------------- The danger to society is not merely that it should believe wrong things.. but that it should become credulous, and lose the habit of testing things and inquiring into them... W. K. Clifford, "The Ethics of Belief" (1877)
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by MrsBeaky: Some people had a big problem with the fact that I couldn't point to a "defining moment" when I had "chosen Christ/ prayed the prayer" ... Now I know quite a few people from a variety of church traditions who have had Damascus road conversions but I also know lots of
I wonder why the story of Paul on the Damascus Road became so frequently understood as the "normative" conversion narrative, when there are clearly so many others - even from Acts - which could have been chosen? Perhaps folk were attracted by its drama.
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
I am preaching on Acts 18 this morning and partly thanks to this thread, have just noticed for the first time in my life that there is no record there of Priscilla and Aquila having a conversion experience or indeed believing in the Good News. They appear to go straight from being random Jews who Paul fell in with to explaining the way of God more adequately to Apollos before sending him off on mission.
And yes, I too will be using the "Damascus/Emmaus road illustration". Thanks, Moo! [ 19. January 2014, 07:43: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'm not sure that Prescilla and Aquilla were 'random Jews'. They seem to have been in some kind of half-way stage ... perhaps being acquainted with John the Baptist type baptism rather than full-on Christian baptism ...
But I agree, it's not a clear cut thing.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
Of course the text does not tell us the full story. But your speculation is not in the text, which is what the kind of people that go for "magic word" conversions claim to base themselves on.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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MrsBeaky
Shipmate
# 17663
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Posted
Originally posted by Baptist Trainfan:
quote: I wonder why the story of Paul on the Damascus Road became so frequently understood as the "normative" conversion narrative, when there are clearly so many others - even from Acts - which could have been chosen? Perhaps folk were attracted by its drama.
I think the drama has a lot to do with it for both the convert and others, we all like a good story after all! The challenge comes in not making one's own experience (including any "magic words") normative for others but instead accepting that their journey is equally valid. I also think there's a lot to be said for learning to tell stories in general from our experience in a way that inspires and encourages others without becoming formulaic. [ 19. January 2014, 14:55: Message edited by: MrsBeaky ]
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
http://davidandlizacooke.wordpress.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Well, the 'random Jews' speculation isn't in the text either, of course ...
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
Actually, Eutychus, it IS in the text. We're told in Acts 18 that Priscilla and Aquila were only acquainted with the 'baptism of John' - so there is some scriptural support for my speculations ...
![[Biased]](wink.gif)
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: Well, the 'random Jews' speculation isn't in the text either, of course
Not the exact wording, perhaps, but Acts 18:1-2 says:
quote: After this, Paul left Athens and went to Corinth. There he met a Jew named Aquila, a native of Pontus, who had recently come from Italy with his wife Priscilla
That reads like a chance encounter to me, in which Aquila is described not as a God-fearer, disciple, or a believer, but as a Jew, expelled from Rome as such. By the time we get to verse 26, by doing nothing more recorded than hanging around with Paul, Priscilla and Aquila are, in Luke's words, able to explain to Apollos "the way of God more adequately", bearing in mind that prior to this, Apollos was, again in Luke's words, already "a learned man, with a thorough knowledge of the Scriptures. He had been instructed in the way of the Lord, and he spoke with great fervour and taught about Jesus accurately" (v24-25).
By the time we get to Romans 16:3 Priscilla and Aquila are Paul's "fellow workers in Christ Jesus" and 1 Corinthians 16:19 tells us they had a church meeting at their house.
My point, perhaps poorly explained, was that nowhere in the Scriptures which so many of the pray-the-prayer types claim to hold as the authoritative Word of God, does it say that Priscilla and Aquila went through anything like such a process.
Looking more closely still, in actual fact neither did Paul on the Damascus road.
One of the reasons I hesitate to describe myself as an evangelical these days is because where I am, at least, the more liberal types seem to pay more attention to what the actual words of the Scriptures actually say than the evos do. The "magic words" debate is a prime example of this.
[x-post] [ 19. January 2014, 17:25: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: Actually, Eutychus, it IS in the text. We're told in Acts 18 that Priscilla and Aquila were only acquainted with the 'baptism of John'
You are wronger than a wrong thing is mistaken.
Read my post, read the chapter, and get back to me.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Russ
Old salt
# 120
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Posted
I think many Christians struggle with the tension between a binary eschatology - everyone destined for eternal bliss in heaven or eternal torment in hell - and the infinite gradations of goodness and evil, belief and unbelief, that they see in the people around them.
Seems to me that "magic words" is about trying to find an observable fork in the road - a touchstone which marks the place where the road to heaven and the road to hell divide.
Something that serves to distinguish the sheep from the goats.
Best wishes,
Russ
-------------------- Wish everyone well; the enemy is not people, the enemy is wrong ideas
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
I'll certainly do that, Eutychus. I was quoting from memory and haven't read the salient passages in their entirety recently.
As for your point about neither Priscilla, Aquila nor the Apostle Paul - or anyone else in the NT for that matter - going through the kind of 'pray the sinner's prayer' type process so beloved of evangelicals - well, yes, that's axiomatic* and I completely agree with you.
*At least, it's axiomatic to me now but wouldn't have been at one time.
I'll have a look at the passages in Acts but it's a bit of a tangent because I agree with the point you're making even if I've differed on the detail. For all I know I might come round to your way of thinking on that too, but I'm not going to lose sleep over it as I'm not wedded to the version of events I put forward.
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Gamaliel
Shipmate
# 812
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Posted
@Russ - yes, I think that's it. I was at an ecumenical gathering earlier and the new Methodist minister preached. I could see the evangelicals present beaming when he gave a clear indication of a personal turning-point/conversion in the autobiographical part of his sermon - which fitted the context very well as it happened.
Some years ago, at an ecumenical service at a university where I worked, I noticed similar significant knowing nods, glances and winks when the speaker, a former RC chaplain, gave a similar snippet of autobiographical detail that denoted an almost Pauline, Damascus Road type experience ...
It's as if they were exchanging glances to confirm to one another that this guy was really one of themselves after all, for all his Popishness ...
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
http://philthebard.blogspot.com
Posts: 15997 | From: Cheshire, UK | Registered: Jul 2001
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: @Russ - yes, I think that's it. I was at an ecumenical gathering earlier and the new Methodist minister preached. I could see the evangelicals present beaming when he gave a clear indication of a personal turning-point/conversion in the autobiographical part of his sermon - which fitted the context very well as it happened.
Some years ago, at an ecumenical service at a university where I worked, I noticed similar significant knowing nods, glances and winks when the speaker, a former RC chaplain, gave a similar snippet of autobiographical detail that denoted an almost Pauline, Damascus Road type experience ...
It's as if they were exchanging glances to confirm to one another that this guy was really one of themselves after all, for all his Popishness ...
This rings true for my experiences too. I find evangelicals are often very uncomfortable with other Christians who don't have any kind of Damascus Road experience, or who wouldn't speak in terms of being 'saved'.
-------------------- Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote: Originally posted by Gamaliel: I'll certainly do that, Eutychus. I was quoting from memory and haven't read the salient passages in their entirety recently.
In that case it was foolhardy of you to tell me so loudly that I was wrong without even looking, having presumably read that I preached on that very chapter yesterday and I know you are wrong.
It's Apollos who knew only the baptism of John before he met Priscilla and Aquilas. We have no idea what the latter knew when they met Paul. We only know Aquilas is described as a Jew, not as a God-fearer, believer, disciple, believer-in-John's-baptism-only or whatever, any of which one could legitimately expect were it the case on the basis of how Luke introduces other characters in Acts.
In one way you are right that this is tangential to the topic at hand, but in another way I think your approach is, albeit involuntarily, entirely characteristic of the mindset that gets evos into teaching things like "pray-the-prayer".
They think they are teaching something "biblical", perhaps on the basis of a half-remembered passage, and are so caught up in their tradition (which they don't recognise as such) that they don't look at what the text actually says (not an interpretation - just the words on the page, as here) - and if they do, they mutter and say their teaching must be right anyway for some unspecified reason, or it doesn't really matter. I have seen this with my own eyes - and of course I have on occasion been guilty of it myself.
After a lifetime of reading it and sitting in evo meetings, it's sometimes really really hard to sit down and look at the Scripture and see what it actually says.
-------------------- Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
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Gamaliel
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Posted
I am happy to stand corrected, Eutychus - I'd forgotten it was Apollos and not Priscilla and Aquila who knew only the baptism of John ...
One of the things I've noticed since I've moved away from my full-on evo-charismatic base is that my Bible reading has become more devotional - ie. Psalms, doxologies etc as part of my personal daily office etc and the various lectionary readings.
So, I've not done intensive Bible study for a few years now and tend to live off my hump. Clearly my hump-memory is playing tricks ...
Of course, it should be both/and and not either/or so I need to re-engage with some of this stuff and also not be too quick to sound off on a hunch as I have done on this occasion.
That'll learn me ... (as they'd say in South Wales)
Mind you, this bit made me wince ...
quote: Originally posted by Eutychus: I think your approach is, albeit involuntarily, entirely characteristic of the mindset that gets evos into teaching things like "pray-the-prayer".
They think they are teaching something "biblical", perhaps on the basis of a half-remembered passage, and are so caught up in their tradition (which they don't recognise as such) that they don't look at what the text actually says (not an interpretation - just the words on the page, as here) - and if they do, they mutter and say their teaching must be right anyway for some unspecified reason, or it doesn't really matter. I have seen this with my own eyes - and of course I have on occasion been guilty of it myself.
After a lifetime of reading it and sitting in evo meetings, it's sometimes really really hard to sit down and look at the Scripture and see what it actually says.
You are absolutely right and have given me a valuable object lesson. I still feel a bit of a berk even though you have acknowledged that you've made similar mistakes.
But faithful are the wounds of a friend ...
[code] [ 20. January 2014, 09:31: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
-------------------- Let us with a gladsome mind Praise the Lord for He is kind.
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MrsBeaky
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Blimey, Gamaliel, that brought a tear to my eye!
As to reading the Bible, I can really identify with what you said. Both/ and indeed. ![[Smile]](smile.gif)
-------------------- "It is better to be kind than right."
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