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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: On having one's looks commented on
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Nenya:
To my mind there's a difference between saying "You're so pretty" and "How lovely you look."
Yes, I completely agree. 'Pretty' seems so specific, about the shape and proportions of your face, and fitting into a cultural norm of how females are supposed to be (and I'm really not conventionally pretty, so it seems a bit fake when people say it, as if they're trying to reassure me or something - as if pretty is something I am craving to be!). But 'How lovely you look' - that, to me, is broader. It can mean you look happy and friendly and kind and all sorts of lovely things. To me, 'lovely' is about the whole person.
I like this. I really, really like this.
I was thinking this over... first off, I have been experiencing a weird, benign health problem that has effected my physical appearance for a couple years, so this is a touchy subject for me. Boy do I ever appreciate it when someone looks past that and manages to see pretty.And boy, do people get judgmental
(I have to wear a headscarf until things improve. Boogie's comment about "making and effort" kind of stings-- I have had people just randomly decide I am not, and sneer about things like"doo rags" without knowing a thing about me. Thus I have become skeptical to the extreme about most people's ability to read character traits via somebody's physical appearance. People believe what they want-- if they are kind, they try to believe the best, if they are not, the less- than -perfect person is at their mercy.)
And indeed I think in most cases it's not a big deal to comment on someone's looks (I would quickly add, based on the kind of things small girl children hear on a daily basis, one should quickly add comments that one is interested in their personality, accomplishments, and thoughts as well. Just do it.)
Things that cross the line--
1. When the conversation keeps getting dragged back to how pretty someone is. Unless you are a judge on Top Model, it is very unlikely the person you are talking to is only going to be interested in hearing how pretty they are.
As a for instance-- I can't find it, but months ago an article was going around in which was described a quiz show-- boys against girls, science stuff. The moderator went from kid to kid and lightly bantered with them when they hit the guess button, introduced themselves, etc. The boys were all asked about themselves or praised for their quick wit. The girls were addressed in terms of how they looked and what they were wearing. Most gruesomely, a girl who hit the guess button quickly was told, "I bet you did that just so we could notice how pretty you are."
If you don't see the problem with the above statement, you are the problem,I'm sorry. To help, the girls were being told-- from the account, over and over-- that their primary function was to look a certain way.
2. When the conversation moves from how they look to unwarranted assumptions about their personality/ character, etc.
Again, this is the kind of thing that is hard to describe, because most people I warrant would think this a crazy thing to do. But some people, once you have caught their eye, begin crafting a personality for you based on what they want you to be. "I bet you paint. I bet you play the piano. I bet you got all A's in high school" "Hell no." "Oh you're just being modest."
I once dated a guy who decided one of my friends, who was quite pretty and looked like Emily from The Indigo Girls, decided she must be a great singer because she looked like Emily. The woman was tone deaf. I told him so. He decided I was wrong. I told him I sat next to her in church and I should know. She sure did look like Emily, and had many other charms and talents, I said, but God bless her, singing wasn't one of them. He decided I was just being catty.
I had another guy decide I was a good Catholic girl, and refuse to believe me when I said I wasn't. I had a guy argue with me when I said I sang alto, and insist the only reason I didn't sing soprano was that I was too lazy to try. I had a friend decide I was a recreational clothes shopper, and when I said I hated shopping unless I had a specific goal in mind, he just flat-out refused to believe me. I dressed (at the time) in smart coat dresses and patterned tights, therefore I must be a vain, compulsive fashionista.
3. When the compliments add an element of competitiveness to the vibe.
So, to Barnabas up there- yes, all kids are adorable. No problem telling both boys and girls how cute they are. But once again, you are a kind, reasonable person.
I am the sister of a blonde. My childhood was full of adult males greeting the two of us like this:
"OOoo, Sis, you are the cutest little thing ever! Look at the blondie! aren't you just the prettiest!"
"Hi, Kelly."
A few years ago sis and I got a batch of pictures from our early childhood, and I was stunned-- because I had been raised to think of myself as the brunette in the family. When I was little-- when the comments above started-- I was actually blonde. I was VERY blonde. I just was not platinum blonde, as my sister was. That huge difference in greeting, attention, and affection was based on what would amount to a half-shade difference on a L'oreal chart. My hair didn't really darken up until I was about nine, and even then it darkened up to dark blonde. (I dye my hair darker, because i decided to own the brunette thing.)
So tell me that a little seven year old girl who is being ignored by the adults around her because her blonde hair isn't blonde enough isn't "making an effort."
SInce physical appearance is so stringently judged in our culture and since it is made very clear in a variety of ways to women that there character will always be secondary to their personal appearance-- it just is, I'm sorry. Telling a woman she has a great personality is an insult,right?--What might look like a passing observation to a man might be socially fraught for a woman. So based on how I was treated, I might be skeptical about someone's admiration until I get some indication that they are interested in me-- like they ask me about myself. Or comment on something I have said. Or laugh with me about something silly. I like being told I'm pretty, but the personal interest will always mean way more to me that any comment about my looks.
And no matter how pretty you are, there are lots of pretty people around. If someone implies that their admiration of you is contingent on you being the prettiest, that is hardly a stable feeling. Bottom line, people-- human being, male or female- want to believe that there are people out there who are less interested in who falls where on the food chain than in seeing what beauty they can in most people.
(And for me, personally-- I just need more than pretty. Both from myself and from others. There are tons of attractive people out there and you might be one of them,and I have no problem enjoying and appreciating your beauty, even telling you I am-- but what else have you got?)
4. "I just called you pretty. That demands gratitude. Here is my definition of gratitude."
The definition could be anything from insisting on a smile-- a "proper" smile, for goodness sake! -- to sex. Goes back to what I was saying on the other thread-- some people need attention. Some people feel more attractive when attractive people are paying attention to them. Some people cross that line from feeling good when that happens to trying to orchestrate it-- and somethings this happens at the expense of the comfort level, dignity, and respect due to the person they are supposed to be flattering
To echo Gwai's comment, people feel things for a reason, and rather than scolding a person for feeling the "wrong" way, it is more productive-- if you really want to be illuminated-- to find out why they feel that way. And listen. My guess is that enough of the wrong kind of compliments might lead a person to view any compliment with a measure of "What do they want from me?"
There is a way of complementing someone on their appearance without making it the main thing you are talking about. Making it clear that you realize there is a person behind that face.* Since that is a better way to look at people-- as Lewis put it, "YOu don't have a would. You are a soul. You have a body," and at least trying to see the humanity in someone is always better than sticking with whatever sweeping decisions you have made about them based on looks-- it is probably best practice to frame your compliments, should you want to deliver them, with their humanity in mind.
*(For Instance, my tack with little girls who are showing off their dresses to me is saying stuff like "Wow you are wearing purple everything today! You must love purple! and that's a twirly skirt, I always love a twirly skirt, they're so much fun!" So, you see, less about the wardrobe itself and more about the interesting person who chose it.)
[ 16. January 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Lucia
Looking for light
# 15201
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Posted
This discussion made me think of a slight tangent to do with commenting on people's physical attributes. My husband is very tall and he has commented in the past on how irritating it is to have people commenting on his height. The cashier in the supermarket who giggled saying "God you're tall", the folks who haven't seen us for a while who say "Have you grown?" (To which he is tempted to reply "No you must have shrunk". Honestly, he stopped growing about 25 years ago!)
As he says, why do people feel the need to make comments about this? I know some people are just impolite, but many of these comments come from people who generally are polite but seem to think this kind of commenting is ok. Hubby doesn't have a complex about being tall, he seems pretty content about it. He just finds people's desire to comment on it boring, irritating and a bit rude.
Posts: 1075 | From: Nigh golden stone and spires | Registered: Oct 2009
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
(I have to wear a headscarf until things improve. Boogie's comment about "making and effort" kind of stings-- I have had people just randomly decide I am not, and sneer about things like"doo rags" without knowing a thing about me. Thus I have become skeptical to the extreme about most people's ability to read character traits via somebody's physical appearance. People believe what they want-- if they are kind, they try to believe the best, if they are not, the less- than -perfect person is at their mercy.)
I find the whole 'making an effort' judgements odd too - different people seem to have a different idea of what this entails and often their expectations will vary according to gender.
For myself, I make an effort to look clean, presentable, and wear appropriate clothes for the setting, such as for work. I don't, however, wear make up. I have a simple haircut that I don't have to style. I wear very simple, soft, comfortable clothes. I have my reasons for this, which are really nobody's business as I don't have to justify myself, but they are partly sensory and partly because I don't feel the need to impress people with my looks.
Once a colleague told me told that I look frumpy and that my choice of clothes suggests I probably don't love myself. I said 'Really? You think I don't love myself because I choose to wear clothes that make me comfortable and I'm not bothered about looking sexy?' She then thought about it and changed her mind and decided that actually, yes, I do love myself. I found it quite a bizarre conversation.
The link about what children are told when growing up interested me. I don't think my appearance was commented on a lot as a child - which is perhaps why I'm not too bothered about it now. But my dad, who never commented on my appearance when I was a kid, made a general comment a few years ago to me; he said that when a woman reaches a certain age, she needs to wear make-up, because she needs to make an effort. In her 40s, he specified, when I asked what this 'certain age' was. So I was okay, he assured me, because I was young enough to get away with wearing no make-up. I informed my dad that in a few years I would be 40 and that I had no intention of wearing make-up then either. He told me that I really would need to - that it's important at that age for a woman to make an effort and wear make-up, because she no longer has the same looks she had in her youth. 'What about men?' I asked. 'Your faces age the same as ours - I've never seen you wear make-up.'
I have no idea how many people share this view of my dad's - that 'making an effort' entails women wearing make-up once they reach 40. But I am now 40 and I still don't wear make-up, and have no intention of doing so.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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cliffdweller
Shipmate
# 13338
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
Many men too, for that matter. It doesn't happen very often, but if someone tells me I look really good it can lift my mood for hours.
Does it make any difference to you who says it (friend, colleague, boss, family member, stranger, etc.) and in what context (at work, at a party, in the middle of a discussion, etc.)? What about how they say it? Whether they tell you what a handsome face you have, for instance, or what lovely expressive eyes, or whether they say the colour of your shirt really suits the colouring of your face? Or that gosh, you look so sweet without your glasses?
The context matters most for me, usually.
If I'm in a social context, a sincere non-sexual compliment is almost always appreciated.
But there have been times/situations in a professional context, especially if I am in a role where I am to some degree exercising authority-- e.g. preaching, teaching my univ. class, moderating an elder's meeting-- where a comment (particularly a public one) about my appearance can feel like a subtle and probably subconscious attempt to "put me in my place." In a professional context it tends to distract from whatever leadership role I was taking and whatever message I was giving, while sending the implicit message that really my purpose in being there is all about appearance. That I don't appreciate nearly as much, even as I appreciate that all that baggage is usually not intentional on the complimenter's part.
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"Here is the world. Beautiful and terrible things will happen. Don't be afraid." -Frederick Buechner
Posts: 11242 | From: a small canyon overlooking the city | Registered: Jan 2008
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Lucia:
This discussion made me think of a slight tangent to do with commenting on people's physical attributes. My husband is very tall and he has commented in the past on how irritating it is to have people commenting on his height.
I can sort of relate to this. I have very small feet, and people often comment on this. Comments on how tiny and cute my shoes/feet are, how they look like children's shoes/feet! People are not purposely rude, but it does get old and boring after a while - and it is irrelevant! Yes, I have small feet. I know I have small feet. I also have big ankles and big knees but no one comments on these! I guess there are certain bodily features it's seen as okay to talk about!
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by cliffdweller:
In a professional context it tends to distract from whatever leadership role I was taking and whatever message I was giving, while sending the implicit message that really my purpose in being there is all about appearance. That I don't appreciate nearly as much, even as I appreciate that all that baggage is usually not intentional on the complimenter's part.
Yes, I find it particularly odd in a professional context. At one workplace I had a colleague, in a senior position to me, who informed me that a certain pair of trousers I wore made my bottom look better than another pair of trousers I wore, so he preferred me wearing the trousers that made my bottom look better. Such a weird conversation - I told him that I was there to take care of clients, not to have an attractive bottom, and that I choose my clothes based on practicality and comfort, rather than which makes my bottom look better.
One of my female colleagues wanted me to report him for harassment, but I didn't, because I didn't feel harassed as such. I just thought it was rather arrogant of him to assume that what he thought of my bottom mattered to me!
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
For myself, I make an effort to look clean, presentable, and wear appropriate clothes for the setting, such as for work. I don't, however, wear make up. I have a simple haircut that I don't have to style. I wear very simple, soft, comfortable clothes. I have my reasons for this, which are really nobody's business as I don't have to justify myself, but they are partly sensory and partly because I don't feel the need to impress people with my looks.
Once a colleague told me told that I look frumpy and that my choice of clothes suggests I probably don't love myself. I said 'Really? You think I don't love myself because I choose to wear clothes that make me comfortable and I'm not bothered about looking sexy?' She then thought about it and changed her mind and decided that actually, yes, I do love myself. I found it quite a bizarre conversation.
The link about what children are told when growing up interested me. I don't think my appearance was commented on a lot as a child - which is perhaps why I'm not too bothered about it now. But my dad, who never commented on my appearance when I was a kid, made a general comment a few years ago to me; he said that when a woman reaches a certain age, she needs to wear make-up, because she needs to make an effort. In her 40s, he specified, when I asked what this 'certain age' was. So I was okay, he assured me, because I was young enough to get away with wearing no make-up. I informed my dad that in a few years I would be 40 and that I had no intention of wearing make-up then either. He told me that I really would need to - that it's important at that age for a woman to make an effort and wear make-up, because she no longer has the same looks she had in her youth. 'What about men?' I asked. 'Your faces age the same as ours - I've never seen you wear make-up.'
I have no idea how many people share this view of my dad's - that 'making an effort' entails women wearing make-up once they reach 40. But I am now 40 and I still don't wear make-up, and have no intention of doing so.
That's bizarre. To me, self-love involves treating your actual skin with love and care. But I would not arbitrarily decide that someone who wears more makeup than I do doesn't like herself. I would assume they just like it.
I could have written a good deal of the above word for word, though, regarding the preference to skip makeup when unnecessary. Simply wishing that more people would leave me alone and let me make this choice frequently elicits comments like this: "Maybe some women don't care about their looks(1) and feel comfortable running around in sweats (2) and unwashed hair (3), but I have respect for myself(4), and like to look their best(5)"
So, for help, I have highlighted the judgemental bits :
1. How do you know what X woman does or does not care about, based on their preference not to wear makeup?
2> Because that's the only option, apparently besides whatever the commenter has chosen to wear. Seriously, I've gotten the "sweats" line from four different people. People who really don't have occasion to see how I go out in public, all I have to do is say I don't wear heels and skip makeup unless it's a special occasion, and all of a sudden I am in sweats. The entire fashion industry has got it wrong, to be properly dressed, a woman only needs one outfit resembling whatever the commenter has described, and everything else can be covered by a sweatSuit.)
3. Just insulting (and more so, may I add, to people who temporarily can't wash their hair due to weird health issues.)
4.Again, how has the commenter determined the person who does not wear make up does not have self-respect?
5. Has it occurred to the commenter that the person(s) you are describing might a.) have actually achieved the best they can at that moment, b.) are choosing to look, mmm, ]second-best for reasons of comfort or convenience, or because their job has restrictions about what they can wear? or c.) thinks, by some disaster of self-delusion (apparently) that they like how they look?
So, back to you guys. And I would really like you to look at it, rather than turning it into "who's right and who's wrong about the casual dress debate?" for the umpteenth time, because I can predict the debate will be pretty evenly divided. But as for you guys-- do see, as per the above discussion, that there might be other factors besides whatever your intentions might be involved in how a woman reacts to a comment about her looks?
A [whole lot of factors.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
I just heard a hilarious take on this subject on this week's "This American Life" podcast.
In Act Two of this podcast a guy on a bus encounters a beautiful woman, and gallantly does not look at her. However, a man who he is with stares at her throughout the entire ride. He then tries to dissociate himself from the man in an effort not to be seen as a creep.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
( I love Mike Birbiglia. And This American Life. ![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif) )
Perfect. Very much worth listening to the whole thing.
Birbiglia's ability to put himself in the woman's shoes is commendable. And YES!!! to his wife.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Boogie
Boogie on down!
# 13538
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Posted
My husband is a 24/7 casual dresser. Whatever the occasion. Summer = shorts, winter = jeans. The only time he 'dresses up' is to put on the lycra for cycling (not a good look at 57, hehe!).
My eldest son has been the same until recently, now he has to wear uniform for work, ditto my youngest and he hated uniform at school with a passion.
I have no choice but to dress smartly for work and yes, it is an effort!
The children at school have no choice either. They wear uniform and must have black, polished shoes and no extreme hair styles, no jewelry except for stud earrings. This is true of 99.9% of UK schools.
I compliment people on their smart/well dressed appearance because I know what an effort it is - I do not find it easy myself.
[ 17. January 2014, 06:00: Message edited by: Boogie ]
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Garden. Room. Walk
Posts: 13030 | From: Boogie Wonderland | Registered: Mar 2008
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
Mike Birbiglia is a find! Funniest bit of insight I've heard in ages. Thanks, Freddy. I'm an instant fan.
And a brilliant comment on politeness policy in the context of this rather good thread, which in any case gets a big Hostly tick from me for interest levels.
[ 17. January 2014, 06:53: Message edited by: Barnabas62 ]
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
Birbiglia's ability to put himself in the woman's shoes is commendable. And YES!!! to his wife.
I loved how Birbiglia's refusal to look at the woman was mostly the typical anxiety that men experience in the presence of attractive women, but which he tried to pass off as principled action that demonstrated his "good guy-ness."
His wife's reaction when he told her about it was classic.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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Martha
Shipmate
# 185
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Posted
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!" This always felt odd to me, and a bit irrelevant - I guess similar to Fineline's reaction to appearance comments on FB. My accent wasn't something I had much control over, it was perfectly normal for where I came from, and it made me wonder if people were actually listening to what I was saying. At the same time, I was glad that people weren't always saying, "What a horrible accent you have."
I don't know that people necessarily thought I cared how my accent sounded - it almost was a spontaneous reaction on their part. But as others have said, it's more satisfying to get comments on things you do have control over. If I've dressed up, it's nice to know that people notice. But if I were pretty enough that everyone always commented, I think I would find it as irrelevant as the accent comments. In fact, you're quite grateful when someone doesn't comment, because you know they've probably appreciated the fact that everyone else does and you're sick of it!
Posts: 388 | From: in the kitchen | Registered: May 2001
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North East Quine
Curious beastie
# 13049
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Moo
It's probably because I hope to be a brightly dressed old lady one day, but I already am a brightly dressed middle aged woman (currently wearing a black long sleeved T-shirt, red leggings, and a black / white / red / orange / yellow/ purple / pink swirly print dress.)
Posts: 6414 | From: North East Scotland | Registered: Oct 2007
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Most women look sexually attractive to men. At least when in their teens and twenties.
My that's cutting it close. Gweneth and Angelina can't turn Ken's head anymore, I guess.
Kelly Alves I love your post/essay so much! You should take that and the rest of this thread and start a book on the subject.
I've experienced so many of Kelly's examples in various ways.
The blonde thing: When I was young I had a dozen men tell me variations of, "Wow you're gorgeous, if you were blonde you'd be a ten." I worked with a man who said that to me and the most interesting part to me, is that he was African-American. The irony of his prejudice based on pigment was lost to him.
Feeling free to comment: I worked in the drive through window of a bank for a few years and people seemed to think I was on TV or something. They would tell me they liked my hair better the other way or my lipstick was too red. Men would tell me they had brought their friend with them so he could look at me. One parked his car and came inside to tell me, and everyone else in the lobby, that I was the most beautiful woman he had ever seen. My mates all laughed.
The random judgements: I used to hear the total disbelief that I truly could not sing, over and over, and now that I'm old and fat everyone thinks I must be a good cook.
I once sat in the back of a college class, so bored that I cut a pair of glasses out of a piece of paper and put them on, hoping to make someone laugh. I overheard a guy tell the one next to him, "Yeah, she puts out."
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
I saw an example once of children assessing two young women who had come in without a word, sat down, and read them a story. The prettier one had been, "nicer" "smarter" and "kinder" than the other.
It's definitely not all about sex. I was disappointed when Lady Adelaid was no longer a regular on "Lark Rise to Candleford," because I just liked looking at her every week.
As to the title question: I met an old friend (in every sense, she's 73) for lunch the other day and we spent the first five minutes raving about each other's beautiful hair, her pretty, new coat, stunning earrings, etc, while our husbands stood in the cold laughing at us. Thinking about it now, it was just us expressing our mutual affection, but how odd that we had to say it like that.
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Kelly Alves:
And indeed I think in most cases it's not a big deal to comment on someone's looks (I would quickly add, based on the kind of things small girl children hear on a daily basis, one should quickly add comments that one is interested in their personality, accomplishments, and thoughts as well. Just do it.)
<lots of good stuff I cut>
*(For Instance, my tack with little girls who are showing off their dresses to me is saying stuff like "Wow you are wearing purple everything today! You must love purple! and that's a twirly skirt, I always love a twirly skirt, they're so much fun!" So, you see, less about the wardrobe itself and more about the interesting person who chose it.)
Really like this, because I sometimes do worry about the way we teach little girls what matters. Also because you make me realize that because of my own prejudices I have probably said just the right thing to counteract some of this crap in my daughter's head. Her brother is 19 months now and classically cute in the way that babies are supposed to be. Between that and being a flirt he gets a million more compliments about his looks than his quiet five year old big sister. I didn't want her to be jealous, so I told her that it wasn't that she's not cute, it's that people can think of so many more interesting things to say to her. We can compliment her on being funny, a good reader, discuss her enjoyment of science, or her organization abilities etc. Baby brother may be organized, but he hasn't got a chance of showing it yet, so we just call him cute. I realize now that the subtext was that comments about looks are shallow and unimportant. Whether or not this is true is up for debate, but it is the perfect thing to tell someone who gets told by society too much that looks matter!
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I've heard that when in the US as well. Can't say I ever had a problem with it - in fact it meant there was something about me that people instinctively (and obviously) liked, which for a socially insecure bugger like me is a good position to be in.
I never quite had the heart to tell any of them that the Brummie accent is widely considered to be one of the least loved in Britain.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
And if they start feeling better, they often start to look differently, as if their self-presentation is changing. I suppose they are now caring for themselves. I don't mean expensive designer clothes and £200 hair-cuts.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
Ken - assuming that all men are straight or even sexual is just part of heteronormativity. Treating heterosexuality as the default is what annoys people.
And asexual men do exist!
Yes, but the behaviour we're talking about here is that of the vast majority. If we were never allowed to talk about something that applies to most people without going through the motions of nodding to every single person it doesn't apply to, we'd never say or do anything.
You probably have some trillions of human ancestors. Not one of them was an asexual male.
But that's the point - heterosexuality is not the default. It's not about 'not being allowed' because that's just PC Gorn Mad bullshit. Of course you're (general you) allowed to assume everyone is heterosexual, it just makes you a shitty human being. Heterosexism is a real problem because it erases those of us who aren't - it's the equivalent of using 'man' to mean 'people'.
Actually it's quite probable that one of my human ancestors was an asexual male (or an asexual of any gender). Asexuality does not mean not reproducing, lots of asexual people have children. They just have no desire to have sex, but do often have sex in order to have kids, or to please their partners, or for various other reasons.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
Whilst at the gym earlier (winning the intermediate level on the black bike race thing. Oh yes), I noticed that another user had a large swastika tattoo on his leg.
I wanted to ignore it and not mention it, or the owner of it, to my wife. I couldn't help judging the owner.
That's really weird, I used to have a Nazi client, with tattoos like that, and apparently he had a photo of Hitler on his fridge. Of course, as you might expect, he was a woefully inadequate and pathetic guy. The tats used to make me feel ill.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
...heterosexuality is not the default.
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I had this experience in Canada. So many people had never met an English person before, and they were always commenting on how they loved my accent. I think, as you say, it was spontaneous (although, equally, I'm sure if they'd hated my accent they'd have kept it to themselves, so they must have thought their comments would be welcome). I didn't mind it at first, because I realised I was a novelty to them, and it was quite nice for people to be liking my accent, but after a while, it got annoying (I was there for several years, after all) and there were often cases where people were focusing far more on my accent than what I was saying. This would be especially annoying when I was saying something serious.
There are similarities to being told one is pretty on Facebook, although that makes it sound like people are telling me I'm pretty all the time, which is really not the case! It doesn't happen very much at all, and it doesn't seem like a spontaneous thing. It seems a deliberate thing, where some men maybe think they are being wonderfully noble by complimenting a woman's looks, and so it feels a bit artificial. If I was drop-dead-gorgeous, I guess maybe it would be more of a spontaneous thing. And maybe, if, like Boogie, I was used to experiencing it all the time, it wouldn't even occur to me to find it odd or irrelevant - it would just seem normal, and my looks would probably be part of my identity. But they are not, and so the whole idea of being defined by one's looks seems so strange to me.
Now I think of it, I'm far more comfortable with children spontaneously describing something about my looks that they have noticed - I remember working with an autistic child who said to me 'You have big teeth'. Which is true, I do, and I was quite happy for him to notice and say something. But then I wouldn't expect a neurotypical adult to say such a thing, and would think it irrelevant, just as a 'You're pretty' comment seems irrelevant.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Albertus
Shipmate
# 13356
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
quote:
Originally posted by Martha:
When I moved to Texas from the UK, so many people would say, "I love your accent!"
I've heard that when in the US as well. Can't say I ever had a problem with it - in fact it meant there was something about me that people instinctively (and obviously) liked, which for a socially insecure bugger like me is a good position to be in.
Did you resist the temptation to reply 'Of course, if you people had been a little more patient a couple of centuries ago, you could have heard lovely accents like mine* all the time, from the people who'd be running your country!'
*Well, given where you come from, not accents quite like yours. But they wouldn't know that.
Posts: 6498 | From: Y Sowth | Registered: Jan 2008
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Freddy
Shipmate
# 365
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Moo:
quote:
Originally posted by North East Quine:
If I see an elderly lady rocking a bright colour; a royal purple coat, or bright red shoes, or anything in fuschia or electric blue I do tend to say "I love that colour! It looks really good on you!" and I always get a good response. But I wouldn't comment on the appearance of anyone I didn't know under the age of about 70.
In less than a month I will celebrate my eightieth birthday. It bothers me that you would be willing to tell me that you like the color I am wearing, but would hesitate to say this to a younger woman. Am I that different?
Yes.
I think that the issue is that comments by a man about a woman's personal appearance can easily be interpreted as predatory. The more attractive the woman is the more likely it is that this will happen.
The situation changes completely once there is some circumstance that takes the threat of sexual interest or aggression out of the picture, such as a disparity in age. Then a compliment is just a compliment, an appropriate and polite thing to say, an honest noticing of something nice.
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"Consequently nothing is of greater importance to a person than knowing what the truth is." Swedenborg
Posts: 12845 | From: Bryn Athyn | Registered: Jun 2001
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
Of course it is the default. How could anyone think it wasn't?
Or do you have some novel idea of what the word "default" means?
Seems to me there are two possible meanings here:
1. That most people are heterosexual
2. That people, individualy, are 'by default' heterosexual.
Either way, I'm not sure that it really helps to imagine people are one thing when a significant proportion clearly are not.
Agreed. I think the point Jade Constable was making was pretty clear, regardless of how you interpret the word 'default'. Default is a computer term anyway, so its meaning when transferred to people's sexualities isn't going to be an exact analogy.
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
As someone who has been told that I've a good face for radio, I've always found this an interesting topic.
I try to compliment others when I can as I don't want them to go through the same stuff I went through when people laughed at me on the basis of my so called "looks." I' glad I have a partner and family who value the EM they see not for what he/she looks like but for what's inside.
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
Also because you make me realize that because of my own prejudices I have probably said just the right thing to counteract some of this crap in my daughter's head. Her brother is 19 months now and classically cute in the way that babies are supposed to be. Between that and being a flirt he gets a million more compliments about his looks than his quiet five year old big sister. I didn't want her to be jealous, so I told her that it wasn't that she's not cute, it's that people can think of so many more interesting things to say to her. We can compliment her on being funny, a good reader, discuss her enjoyment of science, or her organization abilities etc.
I actually got tears in my eyes when I read this. I wish I had an adult in close proximity like you in my life when I was a kid.
Because yes, I guarantee it, one small moment like that will make a huge difference.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Anglican_Brat
Shipmate
# 12349
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Posted
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
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It's Reformation Day! Do your part to promote Christian unity and brotherly love and hug a schismatic.
Posts: 4332 | From: Vancouver | Registered: Feb 2007
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Not so much a line as a series of lines, like a fortress with walls within walls
But one of the walls you ought not to cross is making rude comments that the person hears.
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
First of all, I need to share- the first time I saw a picture of Twilight I gasped, "She's a fucking hottie!" so I am happy to confirm that she does indeed know what she is talking about when she discusses the occasionally strangeness of being on the traditionally pretty end of things.
Second, in response to your "thick glasses "anecdote-- head scarf. Brings out weird responses in folk. SOme people will be overly cautious and friendly to me, I guess because they think it is a religious observance of some sort, some people will look like they resent me having drawn their gaze.
But most people don't seem to care either way. It s the extreme stuff we notice, right?
[qb][quote]I saw an example once of children assessing two young women who had come in without a word, sat down, and read them a story. The prettier one had been, "nicer" "smarter" and "kinder" than the other.
This is where shit gets unfunny. We do connect physical appearance with virtue in unwarrented ways. it does damage-- both to the perfectly nice woman who who's kindness is unnoticed by children because she is not pretty enough to earn such notice, and to the "Angel on earth" who can't be a human being for ten seconds without cruelly disappointing someone.
Back to your shop girls anecdote--and it's hard to know what to do when that situation occurs. You can stand and wait politely, eating up your personal time or running the risk of not being helped at all, or you can speak up and make it known you were waiting, thus giving the shop folk validation that you are indeed unpleasant on the insides as well as out, and also validating their rude treatment of you. ("I knew she'd be a problem the minute she walked in!")
Having said that, I also wonder if a large part of the problem is how much a person agrees with what is being projected on them.
quote:
As to the title question: I met an old friend (in every sense, she's 73) for lunch the other day and we spent the first five minutes raving about each other's beautiful hair, her pretty, new coat, stunning earrings, etc, while our husbands stood in the cold laughing at us. Thinking about it now, it was just us expressing our mutual affection, but how odd that we had to say it like that.
Heh. This put me in mind of a recent visit to my cousin (same age as me). Both of us have tomboy inclinations. When we met we went through some gruff exchange of commentary on the smartness of each other's outfits, but almost right away the conversation went from that to-- memories. News of each other's lives. Smartass remarks. And then my cousin turned to her youngest daughter and launched into this description of how much fun we had hanging out together when we were kids that made my heart melt. Achieving pretty's nice, but nothing beats being thoroughly seen like that.
And I can't find it, but someone up there (a guy, I believe) said they hesitated to express appreciation of a woman as it usually signals sexual pursuit. No it doesn't! It's an opinion. everyone is entitled to their opinion. The conflict comes when one expresses and expects some one else to validate it. Once you have said it, let it go.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
quote:
Originally posted by pydseybare:
I still think there is something problematic and shallow with judging other people on their looks and with dressing to impress someone else by the way we look. We all do it, I just am not sure that we should.
And I third the motion that TAL rocks. I may have even been subconsciously thinking about that piece when I first read this thread..
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
And if they start feeling better, they often start to look differently, as if their self-presentation is changing. I suppose they are now caring for themselves. I don't mean expensive designer clothes and £200 hair-cuts.
You may be able to see certain things about a person's frame of mind by the way they dress, but how much can you tell about their character?
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
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Twilight
Puddleglum's sister
# 2832
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Albertus:
Did you resist the temptation to reply 'Of course, if you people had been a little more patient a couple of centuries ago, you could have heard lovely accents like mine* all the time, from the people who'd be running your country!'
I think you might be making a mistake if you assume that when Americans compliment your accent they are implying that they despise their own.
I've told many an English person that I liked their accent, as well as Australians and Canadians, but I also think my president's accent is very pleasant as well as many other Americans' accents including the Texas twang and the southern drawl of women like Rosalyn Carter and Barbara Bush.
[ 17. January 2014, 19:39: Message edited by: Twilight ]
Posts: 6817 | Registered: May 2002
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
When I got to England, A couple of people told me I have a cute accent. I was dumbfounded, because I (like many) thought that everyone hated American accents. I started milking it after that.
[ 17. January 2014, 19:47: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Antisocial Alto
Shipmate
# 13810
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Posted
I just wanted to bring another NPR body-image moment to the table:
Chris Christie and Pulling the Red Handle
quote:
I remember once hearing many years ago that one of my friends had told someone he was concerned that he sometimes made fat jokes about other people in front of me. He was worried that it hurt my feelings. (Which it did.) His explanation had been, "I don't think of her as a fat person." And my answer to the intermediary from whom I heard this story was, "Well, he should. Because I am."
Posts: 601 | From: United States | Registered: Jun 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican_Brat:
Where is the line between appreciating human beauty and objectifying someone?
Not so much a line as a series of lines, like a fortress with walls within walls
But one of the walls you ought not to cross is making rude comments that the person hears.
Without question. People who do that deliberately are just spiritually bankrupt.
quote:
And another you ought not to cross without an invitation is making any personal comments at all to strangers you pass in the street.
I dunno, I kind of like the idea of people being chummy to each other on the street. I am kind of shyly experimenting with being that way myself. For one thing, it can help dissolve the idea that any unsolicited comment is meant to be predatory-- if random cheery conversation is happening all the time, people will cease to be surprised by random cheery conversation.
The thing is, if I am going to be resolved to be that way, I need to reconcile myself with the idea that not everyone is that way, and not kick myself when I don't get the response I was expecting.
[ 17. January 2014, 20:11: Message edited by: Kelly Alves ]
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
It's interesting, when I think about it, I got used to looking at it the other way round, working as a therapist. I mean that when people come in looking uncared for, it often means they feel like that. By 'looking uncared for' I mean unkempt, unwashed, dishevelled.
I think this can be the case. I suppose, though, the people who are coming for therapy are going to have problems of some kind that they are seeking help for. And equally there may be plenty of people who look unkempt/unwashed/dishevelled who you didn't see, because they are happy and so didn't seek therapy.
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Fineline
Shipmate
# 12143
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
Beauty is such a huge thing in our culture that we don't even know the half of it. When I was young I could turn the pretty off just by taking out my contacts and putting on my thick glasses. I could go back to the same store where the (women) clerks had been fawning over me earlier and not be able to get waited on at all.
This is something I've definitely noticed, being a wearer of thick glasses myself. I wore contacts for a while, but not always. I remember going to salsa classes with a friend, wearing baggy clothes and my glasses, and the instructor (a guy) would totally ignore me each week. Then one week I happened to be wearing my contacts, and tight red top, and suddenly the instructor was chatting to me, smiling at me, flirting and wanting to dance with me to show me how to do the moves.
Something similar happened when I went to pilates classes, although this was with a female instructor. When I wore tight gym clothes and my contacts, the instructor was chatting away to me, being really friendly and giving me tips about pilates. The next time I came, I wore baggy gym clothes and my glasses, and she didn't say anything to me. When I approached her at the end to ask about something she'd said the week before, she didn't even recognise me and didn't seem to want to talk. I guess it's not just a sexual thing (well, unless she was a lesbian, but it didn't seem to be that sort of interest) - just that if you look a certain way, you are judged to be a certain kind of person. Someone 'cool' maybe, that one wants to talk to. I find it so bizarre, as I'm always the same person, no matter what I wear (and what I wear really has nothing to do with my mood or state of mind either).
Posts: 2375 | From: England | Registered: Dec 2006
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
Oooh, been there.
Most painfully, I had a very good friend of mine basically pretend he didn't see me once-- we hadn't seen each other in a couple years, and i had gained about 40 pounds in the interim. I saw him at a theater after the lights went up, and shouted to him in the cheery, enthusiastic way I had always greeted him. He didn't answer. I got closer, called again, he still didn't look. I climbed the stairs toward him and shouted, and his friend poked him to point at me. My friend shook his head vigorously and turned the other way.
So, first impressions are one thing, but when you have gotten to know someone, when you have established rapport with them, when they have gotten a chance to get to know you, and they abandon the good things they know about you in reaction to some outward change? That's asshole behavior, right there. And thankfully I know few people who would be like at.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
Kelly Alves wrote:
You may be able to see certain things about a person's frame of mind by the way they dress, but how much can you tell about their character?
Now that question made me think. I don't think it's just how people dress; it's their total self-presentation, which includes clothes, but also the ways in which they move, speak, sit, and everything really.
I think you can tell quite a lot, especially if you just become silent internally, and allow their persona to sort of fill you up. Well, it's a kind of self-effacement, to allow them to take you over (temporarily!).
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Fineline:
In my experience, when people talk about people seeing heterosexuality as the default, they mean that people assume everyone is heterosexual unless they are specifically informed otherwise. Or that heterosexuality is the fundamentally 'correct/normal' way to be and everything else is just an aberration. Neither of which is a helpful assumption to make.
And yes, as JC said, it's quite possible to have asexual ancestors. And gay ancestors.
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
No one should assume a default for anyone else.
..............
We all see others through the lens of our own experience, this leads a more skewed view than most will admit.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
In a statistical sense, homosexuality is abnormal. A few percent of the population is homosexual (Kinsey's 10% is widely thought to be high). In Western Europe, gays are about as common as redheads - most people don't have red hair, but everyone knows a few.
Unusual or abnormal is not a value judgement.
[ 18. January 2014, 01:21: Message edited by: Leorning Cniht ]
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Twilight:
I've told many an English person that I liked their accent.
Mrs. Cniht and I both have English accents, so unsurprisingly, eldest Cnihtlet also had one when she went to school. She came home immensely frustrated that all she could get from the school staff was "Gee, honey, what a cute accent you have!"
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by lilBuddha:
Heterosexuality is the more common orientation. The majority of humans are heterosexual. The mistake here is assuming any other orientation is then not normal or natural.
In a statistical sense, homosexuality is abnormal. A few percent of the population is homosexual (Kinsey's 10% is widely thought to be high). In Western Europe, gays are about as common as redheads - most people don't have red hair, but everyone knows a few.
Unusual or abnormal is not a value judgement.
ab·nor·mal (b-nôrml)
adj.
Not typical, usual, or regular; not normal; deviant.
nor·mal (nôrml)
2. Biology - Functioning or occurring in a natural way; lacking observable abnormalities or deficiencies.
And there is also common usage. To many people, abnormal and normal are a value judgement.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Kelly Alves
Bunny with an axe
# 2522
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not).
Time-- key point. The deep character observation you describe can't be pulled off by glancing at someone-- and definitely not by glancing only at how they look, instead of at how they comport themselves.
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I cannot expect people to believe “
Jesus loves me, this I know” of they don’t believe “Kelly loves me, this I know.”
Kelly Alves, somewhere around 2003.
Posts: 35076 | From: Pura Californiana | Registered: Mar 2002
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
But this also takes time, as people have layers and layers of personality in them, which may gradually emerge (or not). Now I'm beginning to wish I hadn't quit, it's so interesting.
I am going to sound like a complete, judgmental b!^@#, but I would qualify that as some people have layers. It truly is not a value judgement, though. Being layered or complex is not better, just different.
[ 18. January 2014, 05:32: Message edited by: lilBuddha ]
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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