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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Syria & Jesus & war to prevent worse
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
9 million refugees.
She died within minutes of this picture being taken.
I'm a late convert to no war under any circumstances as I only see that in the human and transcendent pre and post incarnate Christ the image of God.
Am I therefore responsible for this unending horror? Just as I would be for having said, which I did for 50 years and more, war NOW to prevent worse? That latter point one I've repudiated and refuted here recently.
I CAN see that swift, surgical strikes do preempt worse and would easily have done where they weren't done. Going backwards Libya, Sierra Leone, Kosovo, Bosnia. WW2. Hitler would have been stopped in his tracks in the Rhineland by a full Franco-British-Belgain-US response.
The West and its Sunni clients must have made this festering sore of Syria worse by encouraging, facilitating armed insurrection, hoping for an avalanche that the Russians couldn't stop.
So it's NOT my fault? The pacifism of Jesus is not to blame? Even in the face of the certainty of such obscene, insane Devil's alternatives?
It was obvious that the West couldn't use force or facilitate quick, decisive force but neither would it cut off all supplies to the insurrectionists.
So the blood is on the West's head but NOT mine? Not Jesus'?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
Theodicy, innit.
If we could have a short sharp war, much like the retaking of the Falkland Islands ending with free elections leading to the Groovetastic Syrian Shirley Williams Peoples Party For Love, Peace and Democracy winning a commanding mandate from the Syrian electorate I would have been totally up for it.
Unfortunately HMG, the States and the rest of the usual suspects are not omnicompetent agents of truth and justice. They are politicians who work to the usual agenda of "Something must be done! This is something! This must be done!"
First do no harm. It doesn't help that the people who favoured intervention in Syria also the "Bring it on" people with Iraq. Unfortunately in the real world boosterism is not an adequate tactic for things like "having a plan", "knowing what you are doing" and "knowing what the definition of victory is at the outset". The west is not God. It does not omnipotently allow suffering as part of the ineffable pattern. It is not able to prevent suffering because it is subject to brute contingency. Sometimes you have to ask "will this work? and if the answer is no, don't do it.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
What a reply. Gildas on good form is worth paying good money for tickets. And we get it all for nothing.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
War is war .
Pacifism must never blame itself for war on the basis that it can't offer anything to prevent it. Pacifism may not have ever prevented a war but I'm damn sure it never caused one.
The Syrian crisis will be resolved eventually . It is heart-rending to see suffering that we so wish could, and should, be prevented.
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Aye. rolyn: I'll dine out on "Pacifism may not have ever prevented a war but I'm damn sure it never caused one.".
My thinking just went from don't do it (but when you do, do it very hard and fast and soon - which I used to argue under God's pragmatism which I no longer believe in) to NO not in ANY circumstances, not on my head, my watch, in my name, no never to staring at your excellent quote and thinking "Rwanda", then the Holocaust.
Which weren't caused by Christian pacifism. No. But there's a feeling of useless complicity in it all.
They were caused by Christendom of course.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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Clotilde
Shipmate
# 17600
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Posted
I am interested to know how the churches have spoken officially on the Syrian situation.
I understand the Orthodox churches do not favour regime change. I understand the Church of England has sat on the fence...
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A witness of female resistance
Posts: 159 | From: A man's world | Registered: Mar 2013
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
Two thoughts.
It is not about you. Your contribution one way or another is probably not the cause, and if you're just looking to be happy about yourself, denial and blind ignorance is a plausible strategy.
Have you considered that it's not reducible to a simple formula that fits all circumstances? Perhaps you should participate in a war if the soldiers are shooting at you and your family or committing what you judge to be genocide. Perhaps you should be against wars that are colonialist resource grabs. Maybe it's always going to have to be a considered decision and an evaluation of conflicting stories even if you are reluctant to wage war.
[ 17. January 2014, 21:07: Message edited by: Palimpsest ]
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
Clotilde, were the CofE to be neutral about regime change it would be neutral about war in effect. About taking up arms. Going beyond non-violent, in every sense civil, disobedience.
Palimpsest. One thought. If it's just down to me, go in hard, fast, soon. At the very least before that always walk softly with a big stick. Never threaten without meaning it. Never start what you can't finish. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Get your retaliation in early.
Been there. Bought the telescopic cosh. I have abandoned all formulas in the face of whatever the circumstance, no matter what the rationalisation, the temptation, the justification, do not retaliate. Make peace. Find a way.
The church, Orthodox, CofE, etc does not. We are unled. The Pope rightly demands peace. Show us how.
How could pacifism have stopped Rwanda? By doing all that I would have justified in war, in peace. War ALWAYS takes money. As Cicero said: Nervos belli, pecuniam infinitam - The sinews of war are infinite money. Expose that. Oppose that. Sit down in the middle of the M25 for that. Find a way. Starve for that.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
What children would Jesus let starve?
Innercity black American children, of course.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
Posts: 63536 | From: Washington | Registered: Jul 2001
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
Well, in that case, Jesus would have us bomb the Syrians. The little girl in the picture was neither black nor American. Thus, Jesus would have us save her from a death due to starvation.
That was easy...
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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Palimpsest
Shipmate
# 16772
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
Palimpsest. One thought. If it's just down to me, go in hard, fast, soon. At the very least before that always walk softly with a big stick. Never threaten without meaning it. Never start what you can't finish. The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Get your retaliation in early.
Been there. Bought the telescopic cosh. I have abandoned all formulas in the face of whatever the circumstance, no matter what the rationalisation, the temptation, the justification, do not retaliate. Make peace. Find a way.
Don't you think you've just got a different formula? That's hard to avoid, but there are just going to be different regrets.
Posts: 2990 | From: Seattle WA. US | Registered: Nov 2011
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Callan
Shipmate
# 525
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, in that case, Jesus would have us bomb the Syrians. The little girl in the picture was neither black nor American. Thus, Jesus would have us save her from a death due to starvation.
That was easy...
I didn't realise that high explosives had a nutritional value. I clearly should have studied harder in domestic science at school.
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How easy it would be to live in England, if only one did not love her. - G.K. Chesterton
Posts: 9757 | From: Citizen of the World | Registered: Jun 2001
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
I hear what you say Palimpsest. I really do. I saw it as I wrote it.
This is new for me.
She died in my name regardless of where I'm for utilitarian war or not.
She died in Jesus' name.
So I blame Him?
Sounds like the Nuremberg defense either way.
We - that's God and us all - are in this together.
So, what is THE utilitarian thing to do? For Syria? For the CAR?
What is the greatest number that the greatest good, whatever that is, can be done for?
Besiege Syria in every way, even though the Russians will break that embargo. Let them. Otherwise seal it off from all external supplies. Sustain refugees. Enforce corridors to allow more out. Annexe border areas under the UN. Air supply means you can annexe anywhere inside - bastions - too along air corridors, as long as there is local agreement. Let Assad and the Russians do what they want but guarantee the security of all UN annexes. Where NO insurgency is allowed to operate from? Find a way.
The CAR? More French paras?
Jesus, what would you have us do?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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rolyn
Shipmate
# 16840
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Martin PC not & Ship's Biohazard:
....thinking "Rwanda", then the Holocaust.
Which weren't caused by Christian pacifism. No. But there's a feeling of useless complicity in it all.
They were caused by Christendom of course.
Christendom became divorced from pacifism very early on , maybe when Rome gave it a makeover , maybe even before that .
I do not call myself a pacifist . I respect those who do and try to understand the hard feelings that must go with it .
The majority of us who exist mostly in that realm between non-pacifist and pacifist tend to use our blind eyes quite a lot . I see no agony through this eye , protection from a horrible truth I guess .
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Change is the only certainty of existence
Posts: 3206 | From: U.K. | Registered: Dec 2011
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
But I KNOW I'm no less blind rolyn. What I cling to, as an item of 'pure' faith, is that pacifism is mandatory and desperate breaches of it fully understandable. I'm totally convinced that's why Tony Blair attacked Iraq. Saddam made Blair kill a million children, through him, BEFORE that. There's that video out there, taken covertly, but they saw, of the Blairs after a church service, of Cherie trying to comfort Tony. I'm sure that was before 2003, but not too long. He was broken by it.
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Clotilde:
I am interested to know how the churches have spoken officially on the Syrian situation.
I understand the Orthodox churches do not favour regime change. I understand the Church of England has sat on the fence...
As there are about four and a half Anglicans in Syria (*) I don't really see that the Church of England has much of a right to be telling the Syrians who their government ought to be. Or that most Syrians would pay us any attention if we did.
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Well, in that case, Jesus would have us bomb the Syrians. The little girl in the picture was neither black nor American. Thus, Jesus would have us save her from a death due to starvation.
In the widest sense (the one that scares most of Lebanon and irritates the Turkish and Iraqi governments because they nicked bits of Syria in the 1920s) Jesus was a Syrian. For the Romans (and the Ottoman Turks) Palestine and Galillee were geographically part of southern Syria. The inhabitants of the country spoke Aramaic, which is to say Syrian. (Historians tend to call the language Aramaic when spoken by Jews, Syriac when spoken by Christians and various minority religions, and sometimes even a dialect of Arabic when spoken by Muslims) And of course the ancestors of the Jews, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were Aramaic-speaking Aramaeans from Haran in Aramaea - that is they were Syrians. (Hebrew is a Canaanite language)
(*) I exagerrate for effect. There are, or were before the current war, maybe twenty thousand at least nominal Anglicans in Syria, mostly expatriates who I assume have mostly left. But there are five thousand or more Syrian Christians in churches in communion with the Church of England, mostly I think Palestinians, many of them the descendents of refugees kicked out of Israel. (For all sorts of odd historical reasons quite a lot of Palestinians have been members of Anglican churches) That's quite enough for the Anglican heirarchy elsewhere to take a serious interest in their welfare. But compared with the millions of Christians of other denominations and tens of millions of Muslims in Syria and amongst the Syrian diaspora, its insignificant.
Not that whether or not they are part of the same denomination or religion as us ought to make a difference to our love for strangers and neighbours.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Martin60
Shipmate
# 368
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Posted
So, Beeswax Altar, we - the West - are certainly guilty of causing her starvation by backing insurrection and the answer to that is bomb the insurrection's enemies, increase suffering to end suffering?
And where does Jesus the Son of Man and God who is His express image mandate us to do this?
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Love wins
Posts: 17586 | From: Never Dobunni after all. Corieltauvi after all. Just moved to the capital. | Registered: Jun 2001
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