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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: The church as 'private club'
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Oh, dear......I've just had a look at the website. The churchwardens have issued a press statement.
Doesn't look as though things are going to right themselves in a hurry, sadly
I fear the new priest in charge is not going to have an easy ride.....
What is it with the Church? Church rows seem to be far worse than anything I've seen in the secular sphere.....
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Eutychus
From the edge
# 3081
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
What is it with the Church? Church rows seem to be far worse than anything I've seen in the secular sphere.....
I'm not sure this is unreservedly true. However, things do tend to escalate a bit faster when the "product/service" and "job" are to do with eternal life rather than 9-5 making cheese packaging or whatever.
Plus, I think people tend to disassociate church life from work so much that they throw out any good professional values as soon as they get themselves in church mode.
The more I go on the more I think conflict in church life is absolutely normal and, as has been pointed out, has been around since the beginning. The big mistake a lot of christians make is attempting to suppress conflict (or pretend it isn't there) instead of learning (and teaching) how to deal with it and resolve it in a win-win fashion.
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Let's remember that we are to build the Kingdom of God, not drive people away - pastor Frank Pomeroy
Posts: 17944 | From: 528491 | Registered: Jul 2002
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
I fear the new priest in charge is not going to have an easy ride.....
She isn't. But she won't be beaten; I know her and she's a tough cookie.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Yes, I suppose so......there will always be tensions I suppose in how best to do things, and I'm certainly used to that in the secular sphere - I'm thinking of societies to which I belong rather than work - but as someone said to me once ' there's no row quite like a church row' and it makes it look ugly, particularly if you're preaching peace and goodwill to all.....
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Sorry Angloid, my reply was to Eutychus
I think she'll need the hide of a rhinoceros
So would anyone standing for PCC...... ![[Two face]](graemlins/scot_twoface.gif)
[ 25. January 2014, 22:17: Message edited by: Stephen ]
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
At work, many years ago, I was on the receiving end of a concerted effort by a cabal to damage my personal credibility. Went on for about four months, made me ill, took me about two months to return to work, 2 years to fully recover my health and composure. The misdeeds of the cabal emerged independently, which did my reputation some good in the end, but it was tough to live as "damaged goods".
I've seen lobbying and serious disagreements in my local church setting, and it got a bit sharp sometimes. But the factions were pussycats compared with the crap I experienced at work. However, I also know of some good people whose church experiences were pretty much the same as my work experiences.
The dark side of human nature at work, I'm afraid, wherever it happens. You don't want to be on the receiving end. Once was more than enough for me.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Oh, dear......I've just had a look at the website. The churchwardens have issued a press statement.
Doesn't look as though things are going to right themselves in a hurry, sadly
I fear the new priest in charge is not going to have an easy ride.....
What is it with the Church? Church rows seem to be far worse than anything I've seen in the secular sphere.....
You are right... oh dear, oh dear..... it doesn't look like the wardens are going to acecpt any reponsibility for what happened at all.
I think the investigating bishop is going to regret not having an independent note taker in those meetings
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Stephen:
Sorry Angloid, my reply was to Eutychus
I think she'll need the hide of a rhinoceros
Metaphorically, I think she has. Physically, she's much better looking!
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
I was just thinking of the thread in Eccles - it certainly gives a certain context to the Sign of Peace, don't you think?
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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John Holding
Coffee and Cognac
# 158
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Posted
There's a discussion about this on Thinking Anglicans which suggests that, entirely apart from what may or may not have happened in the parish, the investigating bishop and the diocese have made a series of disastrous mistakes that are going to damn any attempt to bring this situation to a positive conclusion for anyone. They seem to have totally forgotten about the concept of due process and have totally ignored the rights of various parties in this. For example, by publishing the names of people without their consent (not even asking for it), by ignoring completely the parish's response to the draft, and by publishing the report without telling the PCC it was going out.
I suspect the debate on this is going to be far less about the departed vicar and how the parish treated him, and far more about the diocese's abuse of process. And, if there is any substance to what the report is about, that's a pity, because there are/may be real issues.
I commend that discussion to everyone who is interested in this.
John
Posts: 5929 | From: Ottawa, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
John has a very good point, based on the evidence in the public domain, as Pro-cambrian and Adeodatus have drawn to our attention. This is what happens when due process is treated too lightly. The real truth, whatever that is, just gets obscured by the subsequent procedural row.
It is a very great shame.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
John Holding is probably right. I hope it doesn't end up with the bishop having shot himself in the foot, but it certainly looks like that. A decisive move cocked up by bad tactics. This might partly be explained by the fact that this whole thing blew up just after the diocesan bishop had retired, though I can't see that he would have handled it any better.
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Jolly Jape
Shipmate
# 3296
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Posted
My bitter experience of the church is that any mention of due process results in a prolonged bout of head scratching, as if it were a phrase in a foreign language, rather than a fundamental priciple of natural justice.
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To those who have never seen the flow and ebb of God's grace in their lives, it means nothing. To those who have seen it, even fleetingly, even only once - it is life itself. (Adeodatus)
Posts: 3011 | From: A village of gardens | Registered: Sep 2002
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
I'd go so far as to say that conflict in any parish is an absolute necessity. If it's not there it is usually an indicator of two possible things (which also may be combined): either the parish doesn't care at all what happens in it, or the priest in charge is too dominant and domineering a character to engage with meaningfully. It doesn't always have to be the priest though - you can have a lay person who basically dominates a parish in the same way as a 'larger than life' sort of character.
I think there is a definite change in recent years in terms of how people act and be part of a church community and there are many and varied reasons for it. The crumbling of authority (which I don't see as a bad thing, but it's a very threatening change for the old guard), the break down of community life and how people understand it (which I do see as a bad thing, and a major factor), as someone else has pointed out - the desire to see church as a consumable product, the lack of safeguards for both a community and its priest, and sadly, the lack of civility that is creeping into church. It's this last point that I think is partly key. I have witnessed first hand things done or said to a priest (and it works the other way too), that in any other line of work would have very serious consequences, that really does boil down to bullying, harassment or abuse. Why the church has a high tolerance for this type of activity I'm not really sure, but I suspect it has something to do with the 'spiritualisation' of bad behaviour and misdemeanour. Essentially, sone clergy and lay have this very odd notion that becoming targets for abusive behaviour is somehow their 'cross to bear'.
[ 27. January 2014, 10:01: Message edited by: fletcher christian ]
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jolly Jape:
My bitter experience of the church is that any mention of due process results in a prolonged bout of head scratching, as if it were a phrase in a foreign language, rather than a fundamental priciple of natural justice.
That's a problem. All churches recognise the ministry of reconciliation, for which we are given the role of "ambassadors". That's about reconciling people to God, not the other way round. But we seem to have blind spots about the ongoing need to be reconciled to one another.
Conflict resolution, whether applied to family, extended family e.g. church, marriage, business, industrial disputes, legal disagreement, is a pretty well worked out discipline "out there in the world". Maybe it "should not be so among us". But when it is, maybe we'd better get humble and recognise that the "world" might have something to teach us about this. Speaking as someone who, in a long and varied career, also spent some time in industrial relations conflict resolution (on both sides of the fence).
I agree with fletcher christian too. I think fletcher may also have had this point in mind. Conflicts are indeed inevitable. But, properly handled, they can produce creative and better outcomes, not just uneasy compromises. Well worth trying to do that, rather than go for an easy apportionment of blame.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Fletcher Christian..
I agree it exists but I am not sure whether it is new or we are just more aware of it.
I was part of a church nearly 30 years ago which when the vicar left he felt the need to say for the future parish profile that it was a ‘very confrontational church.’ I wasn’t sure what he meant, until my involvement as a female lay person was no longer protected by the vicars presence.
That was when I found that the church was run by a small group of older men, who had been church members since boyhood and were determined to run things the way that they wanted, which was the way that they always had been.
I found that committees I was a member of would meet and people would ‘forget’ to tell me that it was happening. I was by-passed,insulted and confrontations reduced me to tears many times.
There was one telling time when these men were planning something and were asked well what about the curate? The answer was ‘he’ll do as he’s told.
I think that this sort of behaviour was very common just not understood as unacceptible
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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fletcher christian
Mutinous Seadog
# 13919
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Posted
Sorry, I probably wasn't very clear. It's not that I think it is new, just that it is a more common experience than it maybe used to be.
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'God is love insaturable, love impossible to describe'
Staretz Silouan
Posts: 5235 | From: a prefecture | Registered: Jul 2008
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Baptist Trainfan
Shipmate
# 15128
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Barnabas62:
Conflicts are indeed inevitable. But, properly handled, they can produce creative and better outcomes, not just uneasy compromises.
That sounds like the classic Hegelian/Marxist argument - but I actually agree. And we've certainly had some "issues" in our church when people feel that due process has not been followed; it can be a pain but it's there for a reason!
[ 27. January 2014, 11:45: Message edited by: Baptist Trainfan ]
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leo
Shipmate
# 1458
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by John Holding:
There's a discussion about this on Thinking Anglicans which suggests that, entirely apart from what may or may not have happened in the parish, the investigating bishop and the diocese have made a series of disastrous mistakes
Is there a link to this? I regularly visit that website but haven't seen anything about this, despite having looked twice today.
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My Jewish-positive lectionary blog is at http://recognisingjewishrootsinthelectionary.wordpress.com/
My reviews at http://layreadersbookreviews.wordpress.com
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Stephen
Shipmate
# 40
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Posted
Leo - try this one
Link to Thinking Anglicans
(nice to see you back, by the way....)
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Best Wishes
Stephen
'Be still,then, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the nations and I will be exalted in the earth' Ps46 v10
Posts: 3954 | From: Alto C Clef Country | Registered: May 2001
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
Reading the thinking Anglicans thread a PCC member from St Faith’s posted about the report from Bishop Stephen Lowe
‘I can say it is one-sided because St. Faith's findings were not read out’
As far as I know Fr Tibbs did not have any sort of report of his own included either. Surely the whole point of an outsider is actually to publish his own report and not that of any of the parties involved?
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
Re - Bp. Stephen Lowe, he is 'a good egg' and, if i remember correctly, did a good report on the shortcomings and possible ways forward for Sheffield's 9 o' clock service.
Whether or not he is a 'good egg' in anyone's estimation is beside the point when it comes to his role in investigating the problems in this church. I'm not impressed with his report. From what I've read of his involvement with the NOS I don't find that impressive either. He investigated complaints about NOS before the final collapse and ISTM he took the position of concentrating exclusively on what he saw as the main problem without giving any attention to the context in which the problem had arisen. Chris Brain's mother-in-law for example had complained about the cult-like atmosphere of NOS and the effect it was having on her daughter. Lowe dealt with the issue entirely as a personal rift between mother and daughter and failed to address the context of NOS culture. He acted only when there were specific allegations of sexual misconduct and although he arranged counselling in the months following the fall-out he refused to engage with cult-abuse experts.
In his current report I see a similar failure to engage with the context in which the problems are set. And the context is a common one in the CofE. It comes from a failure to take seriously the legal structures and processes governing church affairs. It results in people acting in ignorance of their responsibilities, or in exceeding their authority .e.gReport on the PCC (pdf) shows there was a lack of understanding about the Church Representation Rules and a practice of allowing sub-committees, notably the Finance Committee, to take decisions without PCC authorisation. This kind of thing may be common, I've come across it in the past, and it may seem petty but it can lead to mistakes, and even abuses going unchecked.
[ 31. January 2014, 10:21: Message edited by: justlooking ]
Posts: 2319 | From: thither and yon | Registered: Nov 2006
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Barnabas62
Shipmate
# 9110
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Posted
It's a well known report writer's dilemma. If you can't prove it, but you do have grounds for suspicion, should you nevertheless assert it. My view re a published report was always "no".
That's not the same as advice given in private to a boss you had trust in. In that sort of relationship, you can reveal your suspicions and why you don't think they can be used safely. He may know more than you are entitled to know.
Anything else arrogates the proper application of any due process. That's the way I was taught, anyhow.
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Who is it that you seek? How then shall we live? How shall we sing the Lord's song in a strange land?
Posts: 21397 | From: Norfolk UK | Registered: Feb 2005
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justlooking
Shipmate
# 12079
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Posted
This is the statement from the churchwardens published on the church's website.:
quote:
The report of Stephen Lowe purports to be ‘independent’, but is clearly subjective and opinion based. The overwhelming majority of those present at the Congregational Meeting on January 20th felt that his was a grossly distorted and one-sided view of the situation. His report made sparse reference to the carefully considered answers submitted by the PCC to the Diocese’s Articles of Enquiry. A report detailing the responses of the congregation to Stephen Lowe’s ‘findings’ is being submitted to the Diocese and we shall be requesting that this is also published on their website as a matter of public record.
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Zacchaeus
Shipmate
# 14454
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by justlooking:
This is the statement from the churchwardens published on the church's website.:
quote:
The report of Stephen Lowe purports to be ‘independent’, but is clearly subjective and opinion based. The overwhelming majority of those present at the Congregational Meeting on January 20th felt that his was a grossly distorted and one-sided view of the situation. His report made sparse reference to the carefully considered answers submitted by the PCC to the Diocese’s Articles of Enquiry. A report detailing the responses of the congregation to Stephen Lowe’s ‘findings’ is being submitted to the Diocese and we shall be requesting that this is also published on their website as a matter of public record.
Then surely if they were to consider doing that then they would have to consider publishing the full allegations by Fr Tibbs.... back into he said/she said....
It will be interesting to see where the diocese go on this
Posts: 1905 | From: the back of beyond | Registered: Jan 2009
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