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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Chav Christianity
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
From an Anglican perspective, the ordination system in particular seems to be spectacularly biased in favour of the middle-class - issues there.
Are people from a working-class background who have a good education and a degree really so terribly different from people from a middle-class background who have a good education and a degree?
I can't say that I've noticed anything beyond the most superficial differences.
Not at all, the difference is the likelihood of getting a degree in the first place. You don't need a degree to be ordained in the CoE (but get one as part of the training) but it is recommended.
And is pointed out upthread, class in the UK is not really about income but various social perceptions.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Leorning Cniht
Shipmate
# 17564
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And is pointed out upthread, class in the UK is not really about income but various social perceptions.
My point, which I was rather unclear about making, was that I wasn't sure that a priest (with a good education and a degree) from a middle-class background was terribly different from a priest (with a good education and a degree) from a working-class background, and so as a result the background of my priest isn't important.
Maybe other people care more about whether their priest has the same accent as they do, or whether he knows how to use a fish knife.
Posts: 5026 | From: USA | Registered: Feb 2013
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Beeswax Altar
Shipmate
# 11644
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Posted
quote:
originally posted by seekingsister:
However I would also say that in the US, there's much less of a "culture clash" between rich and poor Americans, in the same way that there is in the UK. There will be obvious markers like quality of car, clothes, home, etc. - but I don't think the gap is as wide (or as important) in the US. In the US race is far more of an issue in churches. There's a joke that says that the Civil Rights movement ended segregation in America except for on Sunday mornings.
Oh, there certainly is a culture clash in the United States. There are plenty of Episcopal churches where a highly educated, upper middle class, African-American lesbian would be just as accepted and welcomed as a highly educated, upper middle class, white, straight male. We just feel more comfortable beating ourselves up for being racist and seeking forgiveness for the sins of our ancestors. Welcoming the working class of any race or sexuality? Not so much in practice.
The working class in the United States tend to be evangelical, pentecostal, or Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics have a history of running parochial schools that provided a decent education to working class children. Episcopalians? We educate the children of the rich and powerful. In their defense, Episcopal schools don't discriminate on the basis of anything but the ability to pay.
Anti-racism training is mandatory for all seminarians. I'm still waiting for an anti-classicism seminar. I won't hold my breath
Posts: 8411 | From: By a large lake | Registered: Jul 2006
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I am trying to understand the culture reference with "chav", something not understood here.
In western Canada, depending on province and area, we have 10 to 50% or more North American Indians, called mostly First Nations here. Average age is younger by 20+ years into the late teens or early 20s, extended families tend to be grandmother headed who often looks after grandchildren as young parents have lives that may fit the "chav" designation. I take it that "chav" is a pejorative label; such a label here would be racist by definition.
Religion tends to be something that does not connect at all with this group when they come to cities dominated by the mainstream Canadian culture. Except in the north, where communities are isolated and the traditional culture of elders (which means both wisdom and age) may hold sway. There what we see is traditionalist Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, with the denomination depending on the dividing up of the communities some 100+ years ago.Hymns sung in Cree (or Dene) and English, service following older liturgies in general, with recognizable older forms even if in other languages. I can't speak about the Arctic where Inuktitut is the dominant language and Inuit the culture. But what I have seen is conservative and old fashioned. Connection to the young? Not so much.
What does connect in cities is things that look more like social services. Food, parenting guidance and help, education, access to jobs training and the like. Everyone will talk of God or The Creator, in a vague way, but not much more. I expect the progressive dismantling of government services and the welfare state is responsible for this.
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Posts: 11498 | From: Treaty 6 territory in the nonexistant Province of Buffalo, Canada ↄ⃝' | Registered: Mar 2010
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Garasu
Shipmate
# 17152
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Anti-racism training is mandatory for all seminarians. I'm still waiting for an anti-classicism seminar. I won't hold my breath
And I'd assumed that "check your privilege" training had come from the States, like everything else...
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"Could I believe in the doctrine without believing in the deity?". - Modesitt, L. E., Jr., 1943- Imager.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
And is pointed out upthread, class in the UK is not really about income but various social perceptions.
My point, which I was rather unclear about making, was that I wasn't sure that a priest (with a good education and a degree) from a middle-class background was terribly different from a priest (with a good education and a degree) from a working-class background, and so as a result the background of my priest isn't important.
Maybe other people care more about whether their priest has the same accent as they do, or whether he knows how to use a fish knife.
I understand you better now. I think that there will certainly be different upbringings and experience involved, and the experience of classism for the WC priest that the MC will not have experienced.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
The working class in the United States tend to be evangelical, pentecostal, or Roman Catholic. Roman Catholics have a history of running parochial schools that provided a decent education to working class children. Episcopalians? We educate the children of the rich and powerful. In their defense, Episcopal schools don't discriminate on the basis of anything but the ability to pay.
Anti-racism training is mandatory for all seminarians. I'm still waiting for an anti-classicism seminar. I won't hold my breath
American Episcopalianism has never had much working class input, has it? I think I read here on the Ship once that American Episcopalian churches occasionally received socially ambitious people from the evangelical churches, but this didn't seem to work very well because the theology was just too different for them.
I suppose there's not much point in Episcopalians struggling to appeal to a group whose spiritual needs are likely to be met more effectively elsewhere. That might be considered a poor use of resources.
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Sober Preacher's Kid
Presbymethegationalist
# 12699
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Leorning Cniht:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
From an Anglican perspective, the ordination system in particular seems to be spectacularly biased in favour of the middle-class - issues there.
Are people from a working-class background who have a good education and a degree really so terribly different from people from a middle-class background who have a good education and a degree?
I can't say that I've noticed anything beyond the most superficial differences.
That's the UCCan's Order of Ministry right there. M.Div.'s, the lot of them. It's mandatory.
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NDP Federal Convention Ottawa 2018: A random assortment of Prots and Trots.
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
If I remember rightly, LutheranChick attends a American Lutheran church that's unusually successful with working class people, despite not being evangelical, etc. I think she said this was partly due to having a minister who was a hands-on, practical, straight-talking man that working class men in particular could relate to. This kind of person isn't usually the type to enter the ministry, if we're honest.
Posts: 6668 | From: UK | Registered: Feb 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by no prophet:
I am trying to understand the culture reference with "chav", something not understood here.
In western Canada, depending on province and area, we have 10 to 50% or more North American Indians, called mostly First Nations here. Average age is younger by 20+ years into the late teens or early 20s, extended families tend to be grandmother headed who often looks after grandchildren as young parents have lives that may fit the "chav" designation. I take it that "chav" is a pejorative label; such a label here would be racist by definition.
Religion tends to be something that does not connect at all with this group when they come to cities dominated by the mainstream Canadian culture. Except in the north, where communities are isolated and the traditional culture of elders (which means both wisdom and age) may hold sway. There what we see is traditionalist Roman Catholicism and Anglicanism, with the denomination depending on the dividing up of the communities some 100+ years ago.Hymns sung in Cree (or Dene) and English, service following older liturgies in general, with recognizable older forms even if in other languages. I can't speak about the Arctic where Inuktitut is the dominant language and Inuit the culture. But what I have seen is conservative and old fashioned. Connection to the young? Not so much.
What does connect in cities is things that look more like social services. Food, parenting guidance and help, education, access to jobs training and the like. Everyone will talk of God or The Creator, in a vague way, but not much more. I expect the progressive dismantling of government services and the welfare state is responsible for this.
Chav = white trash as far as the US is concerned, not sure if it has similar meaning in Canada.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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bib
Shipmate
# 13074
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Posted
Chav is also a word with which I am unfamiliar and I wonder if it means the Australia term 'bogan'.
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Penny S
Shipmate
# 14768
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Posted
There's an amount of discussion of the origin - there is a word meaning "boy" in Rom, but it's gone far beyond that, very negative. Trailer trash would be a close equivalent, but I think it still carries an idea of youth. Not really a good word to use of another human being. It looks as though it is equivalent to bogan - but I think I have come across that in a book set in Scotland, of a not real being of peculiarly nasty habits. (And it wasn't boggart.)
[ 25. January 2014, 21:45: Message edited by: Penny S ]
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OddJob
Shipmate
# 17591
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Posted
One positive development of recent year is that I think working class people don't, on the whole, dismiss anyone with an accent from more than 30-40 miles away as an alien.
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by bib:
Chav is also a word with which I am unfamiliar and I wonder if it means the Australia term 'bogan'.
Chav isn't really a class thing. At the working class end you have the people who wear sportswear when not doing sport, often not matching, especially if they do not appear athletic,
like this.
But there are chavs with money. Wearing Burberry check is a sign of being a chav. The Spice Girls were a chav band and David and Victoria Beckham are a chav couple.
Unlike Trailer Trash, Chav is not defined by money.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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balaam
Making an ass of myself
# 4543
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Posted
Chav means unsophisticated rather than anything to do with social class.
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Last ever sig ...
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Posts: 9049 | From: Hen Ogledd | Registered: May 2003
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
There are chavs with money, but often they have working class origins, such as the Beckhams, or at any rate, David. You can take a boy out of Leytonstone, but you can't take Leytonstone out of the boy. I suppose it's also said pretty scornfully about somebody like him. Victoria was more middle class in origin I think, hence, posh Spice.
Incidentally, I think the term is less common now.
[ 26. January 2014, 11:08: Message edited by: quetzalcoatl ]
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
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Curiosity killed ...
Ship's Mug
# 11770
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Posted
Chav comes from the Romany word for boy. Its use goes with many other manifestations of prejudice against travellers - like the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding programmes. I was rather hoping this particular usage had died a death as its day has rather been and gone.
Assuming this report wants to be taken seriously, it seems somewhat unnecessary to use a pejorative term in its title.
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Mugs - Keep the Ship afloat
Posts: 13794 | From: outiside the outer ring road | Registered: Aug 2006
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
Chav is absolutely a classist slur (I am also uncomfortable with the report's use of it).
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Lilac
Shipmate
# 17979
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Posted
I always thought "chav" meant "council house and violent".
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Seeking...
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Assuming this report wants to be taken seriously, it seems somewhat unnecessary to use a pejorative term in its title.
I suppose they were taking the lead from Owen Jones's book; hence allowing the 'slur' to make the point most vividly. Isn't it a bit like some gay people have reclaimed the word 'queer', or black people n****r?
Though I don't know to what extent the report was written by, or for, 'chavs'.
[ 26. January 2014, 15:36: Message edited by: Angloid ]
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Though I don't know to what extent the report was written by, or for, 'chavs'.
That's not important - what is though is whether anyone who the book is "about" has read it and whether anyone else who has read it will do anything with what they read.
I'm with Jade C on this: if other terms were used in the way "chav" is used, there'd be a racist outcry. Owen Jones makes that point in his introduction. We are happy to protect and to affirm gays and people of colour - "chavs", seemingly not. Even in the church we are prepared to confess our sins in the (past) slave trade but are seemingly unwilling or unprepared to address the inequalities of the modern oppressed particularly if they are white.
Mind you my daughter who works in mental health services has commented on the apparent (racist) divide. A young black man exhibiting certain behaviour is classified schizophrenic, a middle aged middle class white woman showing the same classified as bipolar. Now tell me that isn't wrong ... apart from the labelling per se, of course ....
Very little has changed since the days of the "great unwashed" of the Victorian era. For some "chav" culture is a form of entertainment rather like watching the fighters in the arena: inevitably you're comfortable and they're not - inevitably you will survive they will only cope, at best.
[fixed non-U code]
[ 26. January 2014, 17:28: Message edited by: Eutychus ]
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Though I don't know to what extent the report was written by, or for, 'chavs'.
That's not important - what is though is whether anyone who the book is "about" has read it and whether anyone else who has read it will do anything with what they read.
I'm with Jade C on this: if other terms were used in the way "chav" is used, there'd be a racist outcry. Owen Jones makes that point in his introduction. We are happy to protect and to affirm gays and people of colour - "chavs", seemingly not. Even in the church we are prepared to confess our sins in the (past) slave trade but are seemingly unwilling or unprepared to address the inequalities of the modern oppressed particularly if they are white.
Mind you my daughter who works in mental health services has commented on the apparent (racist) divide. A young black man exhibiting certain behaviour is classified schizophrenic, a middle aged middle class white woman showing the same classified as bipolar. Now tell me that isn't wrong ... apart from the labelling per se, of course ....
Very little has changed since the days of the "great unwashed" of the Victorian era. For some "chav" culture is a form of entertainment rather like watching the fighters in the arena: inevitably you're comfortable and they're not - inevitably you will survive they will only cope, at best.
[fixed non-U code]
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are totally different and are diagnosed differently - the biggest difference being that psychosis is often not present in individuals with bipolar disorder. There are two forms of bipolar and bipolar II has more depression with milder manic episodes, so not very like schizophrenia at all.
There are certainly issues with how mental health issues in different groups is *percieved*, but schizophrenia and bipolar disorder(s) are unrelated and very different ilnesses. There are Shipmates with bipolar disorder btw, and I think saying that they're actually schizophrenic but are given a 'nicer' diagnosis because they are white is deeply offensive, not to mention medically wrong. Bipolar still has a lot of stigma attached to it btw.
[ 26. January 2014, 17:49: Message edited by: Jade Constable ]
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Assuming this report wants to be taken seriously, it seems somewhat unnecessary to use a pejorative term in its title.
I suppose they were taking the lead from Owen Jones's book; hence allowing the 'slur' to make the point most vividly. Isn't it a bit like some gay people have reclaimed the word 'queer', or black people n****r?
Though I don't know to what extent the report was written by, or for, 'chavs'.
In the article it says the author of Chav Christianity (but not the article's author) self-identifies as a chav.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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ExclamationMark
Shipmate
# 14715
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by ExclamationMark:
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
Though I don't know to what extent the report was written by, or for, 'chavs'.
That's not important - what is though is whether anyone who the book is "about" has read it and whether anyone else who has read it will do anything with what they read.
I'm with Jade C on this: if other terms were used in the way "chav" is used, there'd be a racist outcry. Owen Jones makes that point in his introduction. We are happy to protect and to affirm gays and people of colour - "chavs", seemingly not. Even in the church we are prepared to confess our sins in the (past) slave trade but are seemingly unwilling or unprepared to address the inequalities of the modern oppressed particularly if they are white.
Mind you my daughter who works in mental health services has commented on the apparent (racist) divide. A young black man exhibiting certain behaviour is classified schizophrenic, a middle aged middle class white woman showing the same classified as bipolar. Now tell me that isn't wrong ... apart from the labelling per se, of course ....
Very little has changed since the days of the "great unwashed" of the Victorian era. For some "chav" culture is a form of entertainment rather like watching the fighters in the arena: inevitably you're comfortable and they're not - inevitably you will survive they will only cope, at best.
[fixed non-U code]
Schizophrenia and bipolar disorder are totally different and are diagnosed differently - the biggest difference being that psychosis is often not present in individuals with bipolar disorder. There are two forms of bipolar and bipolar II has more depression with milder manic episodes, so not very like schizophrenia at all.
There are certainly issues with how mental health issues in different groups is *percieved*, but schizophrenia and bipolar disorder(s) are unrelated and very different ilnesses. There are Shipmates with bipolar disorder btw, and I think saying that they're actually schizophrenic but are given a 'nicer' diagnosis because they are white is deeply offensive, not to mention medically wrong. Bipolar still has a lot of stigma attached to it btw.
Not my diagnosis nor my daughter's but that's how Rockingham Forest used to describe people. Thankfully they've now changed and treat people as people
Posts: 3845 | From: A new Jerusalem | Registered: Apr 2009
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SvitlanaV2
Shipmate
# 16967
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Posted
'Chav Church' is a controversial title, but it's is eye catching and it invites debate. More likely to fly off the shelves than something worthy like 'Exploring Working Class Faith'.
According to Amazon the author Darren Edwards' first church plant has been nicknamed 'Chav Church'. Sounds a bit cheesy to me, but if the people who belong there are okay about it and don't take themselves too seriously, who cares?
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seekingsister
Shipmate
# 17707
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Beeswax Altar:
Oh, there certainly is a culture clash in the United States. There are plenty of Episcopal churches where a highly educated, upper middle class, African-American lesbian would be just as accepted and welcomed as a highly educated, upper middle class, white, straight male. We just feel more comfortable beating ourselves up for being racist and seeking forgiveness for the sins of our ancestors. Welcoming the working class of any race or sexuality? Not so much in practice.
I didn't mean to say in the Episcopal church specifically, but in America in general. TEC is very welcoming in my opinion.
I come from a family of educated black people and our "class" never shielded us from racism. So I would suggest that in the US race still matters more than class.
[ 27. January 2014, 07:55: Message edited by: seekingsister ]
Posts: 1371 | From: London | Registered: May 2013
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
The article in the OP suggests that Middle Class Culture includes "the assumption that personal development includes financial stability, moving off a council estate and ensuring your children are well educated". Conversely, Working Class Culture is described as "life on a council estate, dressing in a particular way, sense of humour, and attitudes to money and education ... the importance of family, hospitality, and sharing possessions."
I think it's fair to say that the WC "attitudes to wealth and education" are being described as different to those held by the MC - that is, WC culture means not seeking financial stability (including owning one's own home) or a good education. These are certainly attitudes that one can encounter in many WC estates across the country, but are they really ones that the Church should be promoting?
It comes down to whether or not we should be encouraging people to better themselves. I'm all for meeting people where they are, but surely the point is to help them to improve their lives? Serving people who are in financial poverty must surely include some kind of effort to help them stop being poor - to help them to be able to earn a living and eventually provide for themselves. Similarly, serving those who are in educational poverty must surely include some kind of effort to educate them?
If "Chav Christianity" means encouraging people to stay in financial and educational poverty because that's their "culture", then I for one don't think it's a particularly good idea. We can do better than that.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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Enoch
Shipmate
# 14322
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Posted
Some years ago, I lived for a time and attended church in a parish which was predominantly traditional WC. However, it was split between an older area of C19 early C20 terraced houses mainly with WC owner occupiers, and a newer area of post WW2 council housing. It was quite noticeable that more church members lived in the older area than in the council estate. What, though, was also interesting, is that when people exercised 'right to buy', one of the other things they quite often started doing, was attending church.
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Brexit wrexit - Sir Graham Watson
Posts: 7610 | From: Bristol UK(was European Green Capital 2015, now Ljubljana) | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Wikipedia article doesn't tell me what 'working class culture' is, particularly as distinct from 'middle class culture'.
Initiative is apparently not possible for the MC ![[Biased]](wink.gif)
I take the joke but there is a serious point here: this thread (and the original article) suggest that there is such a thing as 'working class culture' and such a thing as 'middle class culture' and that the two things differ so fundamentally that a person from one background can be alienated if he finds himself in the other.
If that's true, it seems to me that these elements of working class 'culture' ought to be easily identifiable. The fact they haven't suggests to me that the supposed differences might not be so great. After all, a great many people watch ITV nowadays...
(And I'm very much LMC - I know my place.)
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
(And are you really working class?)
As you said you didn't know what working class culture was, how can I answer that unless you say what you mean by the word?
A fair point. Presumably class can still be measured by education, income, speech etc. even if a society is culturally homogeneous? That said, I may have made some assumptions about your background that I'm not in a place to make since we've never actually met.
quote:
Originally posted by chris stiles:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
The Wikipedia article doesn't tell me what 'working class culture' is, particularly as distinct from 'middle class culture'.
Well, as a corollary, how would you define 'middle class culture' as distinct from 'working class culture'?
I don't know, which is why I'm struggling to get to grips with the premise of this thread.
quote:
Originally posted by balaam:
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = working class; white or buttercup yellow = middle class.
Help, I'm working class.
Bathroom suites: avocado or peach = bought in the 1970s or 80s; white or buttercup yellow = more recent. Unless working Class = not updating your bathroom suite if it works.
I thought aristocrats didn't update their bathroom suites either?
quote:
Originally posted by Curiosity killed ...:
Chav comes from the Romany word for boy. Its use goes with many other manifestations of prejudice against travellers - like the Big Fat Gypsy Wedding programmes. I was rather hoping this particular usage had died a death as its day has rather been and gone.
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here? The word is applied to a group of people exhibiting particular characteristics regardless of background, isn't it?
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If "Chav Christianity" means encouraging people to stay in financial and educational poverty because that's their "culture", then I for one don't think it's a particularly good idea. We can do better than that.
If that is indeed what this supposed 'working class culture' amounts to, then 'Chav Christianity' sounds like little more than socialism dressed up in a dog collar - keeping the poor poor so that they're dependent on the State.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here?
Is that a serious question?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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quetzalcoatl
Shipmate
# 16740
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Posted
The guy near me in Norfolk who shot a gypsy burglar (dead), was feted in the local area. He is a folk hero, despite (or because of) being imprisoned for it. In some areas, gypsies are at the bottom of the racist pecking order.
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I can't talk to you today; I talked to two people yesterday.
Posts: 9878 | From: UK | Registered: Oct 2011
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here?
Is that a serious question?
Yes. The word might be of Romany origin but it's being applied in a way that is wholly unconnected to them.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The guy near me in Norfolk who shot a gypsy burglar (dead), was feted in the local area. He is a folk hero, despite (or because of) being imprisoned for it. In some areas, gypsies are at the bottom of the racist pecking order.
Do you mean Tony Martin?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Karl: Liberal Backslider
Shipmate
# 76
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
The guy near me in Norfolk who shot a gypsy burglar (dead), was feted in the local area. He is a folk hero, despite (or because of) being imprisoned for it. In some areas, gypsies are at the bottom of the racist pecking order.
TBF, to a certain type of hate-filled spleen thinker, anyone who kills a burglar, gypsy or otherwise, is considered a hero.
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Might as well ask the bloody cat.
Posts: 17938 | From: Chesterfield | Registered: May 2001
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Angloid
Shipmate
# 159
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Marvin the Martian:
If "Chav Christianity" means encouraging people to stay in financial and educational poverty because that's their "culture", then I for one don't think it's a particularly good idea. We can do better than that.
If that is indeed what this supposed 'working class culture' amounts to, then 'Chav Christianity' sounds like little more than socialism dressed up in a dog collar - keeping the poor poor so that they're dependent on the State.
If you really think that's what socialism means no wonder there is such a big comprehension gap. I think the difference between so-called 'chav Christianity' (and there is of course a self-mocking element in the title) and traditional middle-class or upper class paternalism, is that working class people can and should receive the gospel message for themselves and in their own context, rather than needing to become middle-class first in order to hear it.
It is patronising in the extreme to think that poor people enjoy being poor and want to be left in poverty; there is a long history of working class people striving for education and 'self-improvement' though they have continually been discouraged by the controlling hand that the rich have on the levers of power. My dad, who never had the chance of formal education after 14, and never owned his own house, was one of the most well-read people I have known.
'Improving one's life' is not synonymous with being a property owner. Social housing has become the last resort for the poor; at one time there was an ideal of mixed communities where manual workers and intellectuals lived side by side (an even better - Benedictine - ideal was that of all workers being intellectuals and vice versa). What is civilised in slaving your guts out for a mortgage on a piece of overvalued jerry-building instead of paying a reasonable rent for a well-designed house? That is a goal destroyed for ever by Thatcher's bourgeois snobbery.
But lifestyle, in this sense, is not what the gospel is all about. Basically it comes down to whether the riches of the Church's tradition belong to all, or whether they are the possessions of the wealthy doled out in supervised quantities to the lower orders. There is a patronising element to some of the middle-class 'let's preach the gospel to the poor' attitudes, just as much as in the servants pews at the back of country estate churches. The recent C of E debate about the Baptism service is tainted by some of it: 'oh, these poor ignorant peasants wouldn't understand these concepts'.
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Brian: You're all individuals!
Crowd: We're all individuals!
Lone voice: I'm not!
Posts: 12927 | From: The Pool of Life | Registered: May 2001
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Marvin the Martian
Interplanetary
# 4360
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Angloid:
I think the difference between so-called 'chav Christianity' (and there is of course a self-mocking element in the title) and traditional middle-class or upper class paternalism, is that working class people can and should receive the gospel message for themselves and in their own context, rather than needing to become middle-class first in order to hear it.
Again, this depends on what "being middle-class" means. There was a sense, on reading through the OP's article, that churches shouldn't seek to educate their congregations lest the mere fact of that education turns them "middle class".
quote:
It is patronising in the extreme to think that poor people enjoy being poor and want to be left in poverty; there is a long history of working class people striving for education and 'self-improvement' though they have continually been discouraged by the controlling hand that the rich have on the levers of power. My dad, who never had the chance of formal education after 14, and never owned his own house, was one of the most well-read people I have known.
This is, of course, true. And there are a great many members of the middle classes - myself included - who ultimately owe that status to parents such as yours.
But I don't think such a drive to better oneself has ever been particularly associated with "Chav Culture". Quite the reverse - it seems to glorify ignorance. Books 'ent good fer nuffink, innit?
quote:
'Improving one's life' is not synonymous with being a property owner.
Perhaps not, but the two are linked to a certain degree.
quote:
Social housing has become the last resort for the poor; at one time there was an ideal of mixed communities where manual workers and intellectuals lived side by side (an even better - Benedictine - ideal was that of all workers being intellectuals and vice versa).
My street has manual labourers, teachers, pensioners and medical and academic professionals living on it. It's just that we all own our own homes.
quote:
What is civilised in slaving your guts out for a mortgage on a piece of overvalued jerry-building instead of paying a reasonable rent for a well-designed house?
Those aren't exactly the only options. In fact, I'd say it's more often a choice between paying a mortgage on a well-designed house or paying a ludicrous rent for a piece of overvalued jerry-building...
quote:
But lifestyle, in this sense, is not what the gospel is all about. Basically it comes down to whether the riches of the Church's tradition belong to all
From reeading the article, it seems to me that it's more about whether the riches of the Church's tradition should lead to any change in a person's lifestyle and attitudes, or whether those people should be encouraged to retain the lifestyle and attitudes that they already have.
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Hail Gallaxhar
Posts: 30100 | From: Adrift on a sea of surreality | Registered: Apr 2003
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here?
Is that a serious question?
Yes. The word might be of Romany origin but it's being applied in a way that is wholly unconnected to them.
No, I mean do you genuinely not know whether there is prejudice against gypsies (and Travellers, who are different) in Britain and Ireland?
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Gwai
Shipmate
# 11076
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here?
Is that a serious question?
Yes. The word might be of Romany origin but it's being applied in a way that is wholly unconnected to them.
No, I mean do you genuinely not know whether there is prejudice against gypsies (and Travellers, who are different) in Britain and Ireland?
A worthwhile discussion, but perhaps that is a bit of a different topic?
[ 27. January 2014, 15:20: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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A master of men was the Goodly Fere,
A mate of the wind and sea.
If they think they ha’ slain our Goodly Fere
They are fools eternally.
Posts: 11914 | From: Chicago | Registered: Feb 2006
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ken
Ship's Roundhead
# 2460
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here?
Is that a serious question?
Yes. The word might be of Romany origin but it's being applied in a way that is wholly unconnected to them.
No, I mean do you genuinely not know whether there is prejudice against gypsies (and Travellers, who are different) in Britain and Ireland?
A worthwhile discussion, but perhaps that is a bit of a different topic?
If he did mean it it would imply that Anglicant is so ignorant of the realities of life in Britain that we could safely assume his posts on these topics are worthless. If just some rhetorical trope, then not so.
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Ken
L’amor che move il sole e l’altre stelle.
Posts: 39579 | From: London | Registered: Mar 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Gwai:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by ken:
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Is there really a prejudice against gypsies here?
Is that a serious question?
Yes. The word might be of Romany origin but it's being applied in a way that is wholly unconnected to them.
No, I mean do you genuinely not know whether there is prejudice against gypsies (and Travellers, who are different) in Britain and Ireland?
A worthwhile discussion, but perhaps that is a bit of a different topic?
If he did mean it it would imply that Anglicant is so ignorant of the realities of life in Britain that we could safely assume his posts on these topics are worthless. If just some rhetorical trope, then not so.
To clarify, by 'here' I wasn't referring to the United Kingdom or Ireland, or making some wider comment on the treatment of gypsies or Travellers in this countries, but whether there's the racial connotation attached to the modern use of the word 'chav' that appeared to be suggested up-thread.
I thought that was clear when the two sentences of my post (of which only one was quoted by ken) are read together. Apologies if not.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Moo
Ship's tough old bird
# 107
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by quetzalcoatl:
In some areas, gypsies are at the bottom of the racist pecking order.
Gypsies were the one group that the Nazis considered lower than the Jews.
Moo
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Kerygmania host
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See you later, alligator.
Posts: 20365 | From: Alleghany Mountains of Virginia | Registered: May 2001
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