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Source: (consider it)
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Thread: Patriotism
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
Yesterday, 26 January, was Australia Day, and as usual I was pissed off, on the one hand by self-satisfied jingoistic idiots who drive around with flags on their cars, or run around with them tied around their necks like Superman capes (Kipling’s “jelly-bellied flag-flappers” comes to mind), and on the other hand by sanctimonious, po-faced moralizers who insist that we (it is always “we”, in an effort to look humble and self-deprecatory, but really means “they”) are all ignorant xenophobes, and that Australian history in its entirety is a shameful and unmitigated disaster.
As I mentioned in another thread, I recently finished reading the just published, and very stimulating, George Orwell:English Rebel by Robert Colls, in which Colls (as the title suggests) analyses Orwell’s un-leftwing English patriotism.
Is patriotism inevitable and ineradicable, an example of the “pang of the particular” which all humans feel for something, and which was attached to other entities (eg Paul’s feelings for Israel) prior to the emergence of the nation state two or three centuries ago?
Is any sort of patriotism acceptable, and if so, what should it look like?
Or should we all be striving to encourage a sentiment of global citizenship, or attachment to humanity in general?
And is it possible to examine patriotism without the discussion turning into just another knee-jerk anti-American rant?
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
I am not sure why it should be patriotism vs global community.
Surely one can feel warmth to one's country and to other countries at the same time?
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Edith Cavell said enigmatically that patriotism was not enough, but went off without either explaining that or saying what more was needed and why.
To my mind, there's nothing wrong with loving your own country, that being excited by any one or more of a number of reasons. The form of government is an obvious one, and closely followed by the degree of personal freedom and security. On another thread a few months ago there was talk of feeling at home, of belonging and on that I referred to the Dreaming and Dreamtime. Sitting out on a terrace at home while I write this, looking up at a blue sunny sky, with gums moving in the strong breeze, feeling at home and feeling settled in the place where I belong. All that's part of patriotism.
What is wrong is when nationalism takes over with "my country right or wrong", which can quickly lead to intolerance and ultimately to fascism. Much of what was sprouted yesterday is nationalism rather than patriotism.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
I suppose the word patriotism itself being derived for the word for father gives us clues there. I think Gee D has it right when it's a feeling of belonging - but then that throws up more issues for those who 'belong' in colonized countries.
I don't really have an answer. As a Christian I think that Christians could learn a lot from the Muslim concept of ummah, and that blending Christianity with patriotism is dangerous (anti-Catholicism was and is largely due to this, Catholicism being seen as 'foreign'). The line between patriotism and nationalism is also easy to blur. But I enjoy living in my country, many things about it and its culture resonate with me emotionally and I don't think I could happily live elsewhere. All of that, set aside from spiritual matters, is I think OK.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
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Kaplan Corday
Shipmate
# 16119
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
To my mind, there's nothing wrong with loving your own country, that being excited by any one or more of a number of reasons. The form of government is an obvious one, and closely followed by the degree of personal freedom and security.
Don’t you think it’s a bit more visceral than that?
We don’t carefully weigh up the pros and cons of our country and then make a decision to be loyal to it if the former outweigh the latter, any more than we dispassionately analyse our mother’s qualities and faults before we decide whether or not she deserves our love.
Of course there are cases in which an individual absolutely repudiates a parent ( much more likely to be a father than a mother, sad to say), and it is possible for someone to cut all emotional ties with their country, too, but surely a “good” patriotism (if there is such a thing) honestly recognizes a country’s faults, loves it anyway, and tries to do something about them (at which point the analogy with parents breaks down!).
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mousethief
Ship's Thieving Rodent
# 953
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Posted
This little talk talks about patriotism as a point in a continuum from love of one's family to love of the whole human race -- I found it worth watching.
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This is the last sig I'll ever write for you...
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
Yes, I agree that it's a lot more visceral than my opening, which is why I then moved to the sense of belonging. The feeling you get as the plane comes in over the Harbour when you're returning from a holiday. In my case, the feeling I get when I go to the Southern Tablelands-Monaro region in NSW. And then to take it to the dangerous stage, the belonging you'd go to war to protect.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
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Heavenly Anarchist
Shipmate
# 13313
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Edith Cavell said enigmatically that patriotism was not enough, but went off without either explaining that or saying what more was needed and why.
If I remember rightly, the quotation on her statue in London say 'Patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards any one'. I have often wondered if this is her interpretation of the limitations of patriotism or a general statement about her feelings on facing her death.
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'I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by.' Douglas Adams
Dog Activity Monitor
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Yes, I agree that it's a lot more visceral than my opening, which is why I then moved to the sense of belonging. The feeling you get as the plane comes in over the Harbour when you're returning from a holiday. In my case, the feeling I get when I go to the Southern Tablelands-Monaro region in NSW. And then to take it to the dangerous stage, the belonging you'd go to war to protect.
It was me who started the thread a couple of months ago about belonging/a sense of home, and I started it, at least in part, out of some confusion around what I suppose you might call patriotism. My sense of belonging has always been a bit out of whack, and I was pondering whether that might have been something to do with being a first-generation NZ'er. I am, irreversibly, a NZ'er. I have no other country. But my parents are/were English.
As a result of both this (and their being crazy fundamentalists), I had a childhood experience which differed from the standard in this country. Now, most of the time, this is not a problem. However, there is this one thing which keeps happening (every Christmas, at my kids' daycare, and there are three more Christmases to go before I am done with the torture) - they have a Christmas party for the kids each year, and get them to sing a 'New Zealand version' of the Jingle Bells song. Theoretically, I get this. Jingle Bells is a winter song, and it's high summer and usually stinking hot at these occasions. Also, Christmas necessarily feels different when it happens in summer. But the song is, to me, aggressively jingoistic in its portrayal of the genuine NZ Christmas experience. I can't identify with a single line of the song, and it always makes me feel lost and out of place (again). Last year, I looked around at the assembled parents - probably about twenty families - and did some counting. Three Vietnamese families, one Chinese, one Japanese, one Filipino, two South Africans, two English, and one Argentinian, and I thought, I wonder how many of these folk are bemused by this song as well? All of these people have chosen to make NZ their home, and presumably have hard-to-express feelings of allegiance, and things they love about this country, and probably none of them have anything to do with rugby, sailing, cricket, pohutukawa trees, camping, or fishing from a ten-foot dinghy. Which doesn't take us any closer to what patriotism is, or whether it is good, bad, or neutral, but I hope serves to establish that it is mighty complicated...
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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Tortuf
Ship's fisherman
# 3784
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Posted
Am I fond of my country in a geographical sense? Why yes, of course. It is part of the world created by God and therefore good and worthy of love.
Am I fond of my country in a theoretical sense? Yes. A democracy is a basically good form of government.
Am I fond of how the country is being run right now? As a general thing, yes. There is enough concern for the poor that mass starvation is not present. The streets are paved and there are churches around free to worship God in whatever weird ass way they want.
Do I think there are things wrong with my country? Yes. Among other things we promote and tolerate the super rich because they have the money to buy all the politicians they want. And, there are tools who seemed to have crawled out from under a rock sometime around the women are a sub species era - sometime right around the Cretaceous era I think.
Am I patriotic? Yup.
So, is patriotism a blind love and acceptance of my country? Nope.
Patriotism is having enough love for your country that you want to make it better and are willing to take action to do so. That may mean fighting the wars of your country if you think they are just. It may mean taking political action. It may mean being a cop and enforcing the laws.
To paraphrase James, patriotism without works is dead.
I love my country even as I see its flaws. I love it enough that I am willing to - and have - worked to change it for the better. I also own a flag, but I do not wear it as a cape.
Posts: 6963 | From: The Venice of the South | Registered: Dec 2002
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
[M]y kids' daycare...sing a 'New Zealand version' of the Jingle Bells song.
I'm intrigued - what are the lyrics?
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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Barnabas Aus
Shipmate
# 15869
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Posted
Anglican't, there's an Australian version too - lyrics can be found at this website Note that Colin Buchanan who wrote the lyrics is also a well-known evangelical whose Christian children's music is extremely popular.
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betjemaniac
Shipmate
# 17618
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by leo:
quote:
Originally posted by Gee D:
Edith Cavell said enigmatically that patriotism was not enough, but went off without either explaining that or saying what more was needed and why.
She didn't need to because she demonstrated it by nursing people from all nationalities - and paying the price for it.
Um, bit more complicated than that actually, as came up on another thread about £2 coins. Yes, she nursed people of all nationalities. She paid the price not for nursing but for helping Allied prisoners to escape and feeding information to MI6 in her capacity as a British spook.
In addition, those words need to be taken in the context of when and how they were said, the night before her execution, and prefaced with:
"I thank God for this ten weeks' quiet before the end... Life has always been hurried and full of difficulty... This time of rest has been a great mercy."
It is perfectly possible to interpret "patriotism is not enough...." as a position she came to during 10 weeks in prison, reflecting on what she had and hadn't done, and therefore not in any way what motivated her nursing and "treasonable" activities (she was executed for treason against the occupying Germans and the British government conceded the point).
Edith Cavell was humane enough to treat people of all nationalities through her nursing *whilst* being enveloped in the union jack and being extremely partial as to which side (her own, naturally) was in the right. The position she came to after 10 weeks of reflection in a prison cell isn't really either here or there ISTM (although I agree with you that the position itself is a good one).
I knew all those years of Edith Cavell study would come in useful one day!
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And is it true? For if it is....
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HCH
Shipmate
# 14313
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Posted
I like Jade C.'s comment. I wonder what would constitute "matriotism"?
Posts: 1540 | From: Illinois, USA | Registered: Nov 2008
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I suppose the word patriotism itself being derived for the word for father gives us clues there.
But people also often speak of the 'mother country'. And countries traditionally are a 'she'.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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no prophet's flag is set so...
Proceed to see sea
# 15560
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Posted
I've hiked up to and past the meadow opposite Mount Edith Cavel in Jasper National Park. The angel glacier is melting rather quickly and no longer looks like an angel with wings outspread. It seems metaphorical for the ideas and sentiments she expressed, which are also melting.
[Code fix - Gwai]
[ 27. January 2014, 16:41: Message edited by: Gwai ]
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Out of this nettle, danger, we pluck this flower, safety.
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Pomona
Shipmate
# 17175
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by Jade Constable:
I suppose the word patriotism itself being derived for the word for father gives us clues there.
But people also often speak of the 'mother country'. And countries traditionally are a 'she'.
Sorry - my comment was in the light of Gee D speaking about 'belonging' and was agreeing with him (because we feel like children of our countries). I wasn't making a point about gender.
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Consider the work of God: Who is able to straighten what he has bent? [Ecclesiastes 7:13]
Posts: 5319 | From: UK | Registered: Jun 2012
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anoesis
Shipmate
# 14189
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
quote:
Originally posted by anoesis:
[M]y kids' daycare...sing a 'New Zealand version' of the Jingle Bells song.
I'm intrigued - what are the lyrics?
I can't find them online, unfortunately, but they are pretty similar in many ways to the ones BarnabasAus has linked to. Station wagons, caravans, Christmas at the beach, test cricket on the radio, fish on the barbie, feet dangling off the wharf, guitars round the campfire, that sort of thing. Sounds like fun, but is in no way reflective of my experience.
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The history of humanity give one little hope that strength left to its own devices won't be abused. Indeed, it gives one little ground to think that strength would continue to exist if it were not abused. -- Dafyd --
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DangerousDeacon
Shipmate
# 10582
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Posted
There is a difference between patriotism and jingoism. A few years ago I attended the local council Australia Day Celebration, and did not pick up one of the small paper flags on offer on the way in.
When we sung the National Anthem, uninspiring as it is, I stood at attention and sung it. Without having to read the words. We then broke into "I am, you are, we are Australia-an." Everyone was waving their flags, which left me a little cold. One gentleman stared at me: "Aren't you proud of your country, or are you some sort of f...ing foreigner". My response: "I've done twenty-five years in the Australian Army. Do I have to wave a flag to prove it?"
So, patriotism - actually doing something for your country. Jingoism - waving a flag. Australia Day - perhaps just a bit too much jingoism now?
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'All the same, it may be that I am wrong; what I take for gold and diamonds may be only a little copper and glass.'
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Vulpior
Foxier than Thou
# 12744
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Posted
I'm with you on the flags, DangerousDeacon. Waving a little paper flag while singing at a citizenship ceremony wouldn't be me. I wave my team flag at the footy while singing the team song, and I can imagine being at a suitably patriotic event with a big Aussie flag and waving it when appropriately emotionally aroused (with a few stubbies inside me, perhaps), but there's no one way to show those feelings. I hope you told blokey to get f***ed; I'd have been gutted to have that said to me.
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I've started blogging. I don't promise you'll find anything to interest you at uncleconrad
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
An interesting development over the last 15 or so years, at least around here, is in the ritual at an 18th/21st birthday. After the toasts and the sculling of the litre, the young ones sing Advance Australia Fair - to which they do know the words. We would not have thought of singing that, or God Save the Queen, in my day
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
I wonder if that's quite local to your area Gee Dee or if not how far afield the tradition goes? Certainly I haven't ever seen that happen. Or the skolling of the litre either. Everyone my age and younger sang the national anthem weekly at school so most know the words of at least the first verse, but I don't know anyone who would sing it outside of a sporting or perhaps war rememberance context outside of school.
School kids these days sing the second verse too. When right wing bogans start going on about how schools won't let anyone sing the anthem anymore (not true!) I like to tell them we sing both verses now, every week. They're usually not too impressed with the bit about "for those who've come across the seas, we've boundless plains to share". Mind you this originally only applied to British settlers and our immigration policies and treatment of refugees makes it a bit sad to sing these days.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Gee D
Shipmate
# 13815
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Posted
I can only speak of local behaviour. At our age, we are basically only invited to the celebration for family members, and those are local affairs. The only non-local birthday celebrant was my cousin's son and as the party was at our house that was a local event.
You don't have the litre, to the chant "Down, down, down, down"? In the old days it used of course be a quart. My quart glass got broken years ago, and Dlet could not use it.
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Not every Anglican in Sydney is Sydney Anglican
Posts: 7028 | From: Warrawee NSW Australia | Registered: Jun 2008
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Mili
Shipmate
# 3254
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Posted
Maybe some people in Melbourne do, but none of the 21sts or 18ths I've been at. We just have cake, Happy Birthday song, embarrassing photos/powerpoint slide show and speeches.
Posts: 1015 | From: Melbourne, Australia | Registered: Aug 2002
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Yam-pk
Shipmate
# 12791
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Posted
I don't think there is anything wrong with celebrating the achivements of a particular country.
The aggressive nasty sort nationalism, on the other hand, which right-wingers, particularly, appear bent on whipping up, seems to be on the rise throughout the rich West, maybe hording most of the wealth and power is coming home to roost...
Posts: 472 | From: The Grim North | Registered: Jul 2007
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Anglican't
Shipmate
# 15292
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Posted
Do you ever feel that this is one of those irregular verbs, depending on one's politics?
I am a patriot who loves his country.
He is a nationalist pursuing a horrible agenda.
Posts: 3613 | From: London, England | Registered: Nov 2009
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lilBuddha
Shipmate
# 14333
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Posted
quote:
Originally posted by Anglican't:
Do you ever feel that this is one of those irregular verbs, depending on one's politics?
I am a patriot who loves his country.
He is a nationalist pursuing a horrible agenda.
It can be, but it is not necessarily so.
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I put on my rockin' shoes in the morning
Hallellou, hallellou
Posts: 17627 | From: the round earth's imagined corners | Registered: Dec 2008
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hatless
Shipmate
# 3365
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Posted
Bonhoeffer is an interesting example. He returned to Germany just before the war, wanting to be there with his people. He said that someone who had not lived through the war in Germany had no right to take part in the rebuilding that would be necessary after the war was over.
But, of course, while he was there he actively and secretly opposed the government, using his position in Military Intelligence to help Jews and others to escape, and he supported one of the assassination attempts on Hitler. He was hanged alongside Admiral Canaris as a traitor.
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My crazy theology in novel form
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